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Lord of the Rings selectors, pages, etc.
The Republican Civil War
By Ponderer
January 3, 2023 12:04 pm
Category: Lord of the Rings

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The trenches are manned and the shells are raining.

It's sure to be a bloody battle. No one knows how long the war will last. Until the last MAGA hat falls I reckon.

You know, a half dozen or so Republicans could just vote for Jeffries and stop all the lunacy....

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Comments on "The Republican Civil War":

  1. by HatetheSwamp on January 3, 2023 12:09 pm

    po,

    You are insane if you think people from the Freedom Caucus will vote for Hakeem Jeffries. But, dream!


  2. by HatetheSwamp on January 3, 2023 12:25 pm

    That gay Guy Curt's never heard of's comment on Jeffries getting the same number of votes in the second vote as the first? "The democrats stuck by their election denier."

    Benson is, by no means, a MAGA. Nor is he a supporter of Kevin McCarthy.


  3. by Donna on January 3, 2023 12:33 pm

    McCarthy got the same number of votes on the second vote too.


  4. by HatetheSwamp on January 3, 2023 12:44 pm

    Yeah, Donna. Jim Jordan picked up votes...after he endorsed McCarthy. In pb's opinion, he'd be a HORRIBLE Speaker!


  5. by Donna on January 3, 2023 12:45 pm

    Why didn't you just say "In my opinion"?

    You're weird.


  6. by Ponderer on January 3, 2023 12:45 pm

    It doesn't have to be five or six Republicans from the Freedom Caucus. It could be any six sane and reasonable House Republicans who are simply sick and tired of their party being a circus of nihilist freaks who don't deserve to lead the House and are willing to demonstrate just how fed up they are by letting a competent party faithfully do the job instead.


  7. by Ponderer on January 3, 2023 12:48 pm

    At any rate, this is all quite hysterical.


  8. by HatetheSwamp on January 3, 2023 12:50 pm

    po,

    If you think the loyal GOPs who are voting for McCarthy will jump ship to the Dems, you truly are crazy. The only GOP I know of even considering being comfortable with Jeffries as Speaker in the insane Matt Gaetz.


  9. by HatetheSwamp on January 3, 2023 12:53 pm

    Hysterical, eh? This is one of our republic's finest hours. IMO. It's because the GOPs became the party where might happen, among other reasons, that pb jumped to the GOPs.


  10. by Ponderer on January 3, 2023 1:00 pm

    Oh I admit it's a crazy notion. It would never happen.

    Six sane and rational Republicans...??? Yeah. As if.


    So you're actually proud of this battle going on among House GOPs?

    That's interesting. Can you go into more detail?


  11. by HatetheSwamp on January 3, 2023 3:40 pm

    po,

    pb isn't PROUD of this struggle for the GOP to find itself. He does think that it's a good thing for the party that is the home of openness and acceptance and inclusion and tolerance and diversity and, of course, freethinking.

    That you Blue MAGAs demand the sort of obseisance required among fascists mystifies good ol pb. The GOP has become the Big Tent party. This is what happens among a people who have various backgrounds.


  12. by Donna on January 3, 2023 3:43 pm

    I predict that Democrats will cross over and vote for McCarthy to break the deadlock.


  13. by Curt_Anderson on January 3, 2023 3:49 pm
    Dang, Donna, I was hoping a few Republicans would cross over and vote for Hakeem Jeffries. Jeffries has 212 votes and McCarthy has 202. The magic number is 218.


  14. by HatetheSwamp on January 3, 2023 3:58 pm

    As I said, the only GOP I know of who's suggesting comfort with election-denier Hakeem Jeffries as Speaker, along with a small GOP majority,p is the bizarre Matt Gaetz.

    It'll be interesting what calmer heads might accomplish over night. I'm not convinced that the 200+ McCarthy supporters were taking the determination of the Freedom Caucus dissidents seriously. Clearly, they are determined...and, disciplined.

    pb's sympathetic with them. As I've said, I'm picking up antiSwamp passions and that's a big deal for the HatetheSwamp crowd.


  15. by Donna on January 3, 2023 4:20 pm

    Sheri and I were talking about that possibility, Curt, but I don't think they have it in them to put the country over their party.

    What's the Freedom Caucus' beef with McCarthy? Do you know, Hts? The Freedom Party considers him part of the swamp, but why?

    Here's another question for you, Hts: What would you want the politicians who you consider anti-swampers to accomplish if their numbers in Congress were sufficient to pass legislation?


  16. by Curt_Anderson on January 3, 2023 6:37 pm
    "The GOP has become the Big Tent party." -HtS

    The House GOP is more like the sideshow by the big tent attracting the gullible with the exhibitions of human oddities and the carnival grifters operating games of chance.


  17. by HatetheSwamp on January 4, 2023 3:51 am

    Sideshow?

    From a polished, canned, backslapping way, what politics has become...which is uuuuuuuuugly...you're certainly bang on. This seems silly.


    Surely you remember learning about Hegel's dialectic back in high school, y'know the old "Thesis, Antithesis, Synthesis" thing.

    From what I can tell, in hearing from the what SwampGOPs are calling insurgents, at least some of the opponents of McCarthy hate what DC has become and are voting against the corrupt political culture that has overtaken our politics. These people are promoting an antithesis: A paradigm shift.

    Of course, the people of the established way...SwampGOPs, SwampDems, the SwampMedia...are outraged. You: Swamp lovers, the children of the Swamp, i.e., Curt, po, Donna, isle...I don't know about OD... are mocking this. But, what US politics has become is dysfunctional. It's terrible. Opposing that culture is worthwhile.

    That's some of what I think is happening. I'm in favor of that.

    Will it succeed? I hope something worthwhile will happen...

    ...but, I doubt it.


  18. by Donna on January 4, 2023 6:22 am

    Robert Reich offers an interesting proposal: Have all the Democrats vote for a non-MAGA Republican Representative from Ohio named David Joyce, who Reich says enough Republicans would vote for to get over the 50% threshold.




    rsn.org


  19. by oldedude on January 4, 2023 6:23 am
    I think it shows that some members can't be bought, unlike the dims. The smaller caucus asked to be put on some committees, not to be in the leadership of them. These were patently refused. This was an unforced error on McCarthy's part. They had a lot of time to do this behind closed doors and blew it. For the blue swampcreatures, these folks are trying to get rid of the standard way of politicians being bought off by big business and payoffs. I don't think that's a bad thing, but apparently others support it with all their hearts.

    Is it a "constitutional crisis?" Naw. It's a PITA to the citizenary for sure, as nothing's getting done. I wonder if they could be docked pay, like when unions strike?


  20. by Ponderer on January 5, 2023 8:45 am

    You don't quite get it, od.

    It's not about committee postings or rule changes or any of that stuff.



    They can't stand McCarthy. This is all about HIM.



    He's already said he will give them essentially all the concessions they want, but they will not accept any deal that has McCarthy being the Speaker.

    And McCarthy is not about to give up on his life's dream of becoming Speaker. Which is pretty screwed for him since the only way out of this mess is for him to step down.

    And there's no one else who could be nominated who can do any better than he has!


  21. by oldedude on January 5, 2023 10:31 am
    It's not about committee postings or rule changes or any of that stuff."

    I guess you ARE that politically naďve. I've heard one person for sure, and two maybe that actually don't like him. The rest understand that he's a leader in the party and have to work with him regardless of their feelings.

    They're also (with the exception of possibly one) junior representatives to him. That means he has the ability to sink everything they want to put through, making their tenures short. What they want is committee positions that would get them name recognition and juice in their districts. Remember, the senior representatives of the ruling party choose which bills go to committee and how their folks on the committee vote.

    He also gets the say about wording in a bill. That is extremely important, especially if you can't work with him and pay your homage.

    He also gets to pick who speaks on the floor. That's also important. You don't get the time, you're thrown away for anyone worthwhile to know in congress.


  22. by Ponderer on January 5, 2023 2:04 pm

    There are at least five declared "Never Kevins". That's all that is needed to keep the calliope playing and the clowns cavorting.


  23. by HatetheSwamp on January 5, 2023 3:27 pm

    I think that a nice sized chunk of the 21 are voting against McCarthy. Some may be bought off but, without some maneuvering, I think McCarthy is toast.


  24. by Donna on January 5, 2023 3:44 pm

    A Democratic House member just nominated Hakeem for SOTH.

    This is another one that America's Founders blew. Why leave the process of selecting a SOTH open ended? They should have included a provision where if the majority party is unable to elect a speaker after say the 9th time, then the speakership is awarded to the minority party's speaker.


  25. by HatetheSwamp on January 5, 2023 3:48 pm

    Donna,

    Parties formed on their own independent of the Constitution. Who'd'a even thought of em!


  26. by Curt_Anderson on January 5, 2023 4:19 pm
    Since humans are a gregarious lot, it wouldn’t have taken them too long to think of political parties. In the case of our American founders I am sure it was obvious. After all, Britain had their political parties with the Whigs and the Tories.


  27. by oldedude on January 5, 2023 4:56 pm
    "A Democratic House member just nominated Hakeem for SOTH."

    He's been on the ballot every time as far as I know. They understand where every vote is going. This doesn't hold any surprises.


  28. by HatetheSwamp on January 6, 2023 3:14 am

    But, Curt. It wasn't.

    As I've said, I recently read Ron Chernow's biography of Hamilton. The factions...they weren't parties as we think of them today...began to evolve organically by the end of Washington's second term but they were nuthin like our parties today. There's no way that the Framers could have imagined in the 1780s what we have now.

    But, hey! The Constitution can be amended. How bout you progressive SwampLovers propose an amendment!


  29. by HatetheSwamp on January 6, 2023 3:52 am

    This is another one that America's Founders blew. Why leave the process of selecting a SOTH open ended? ~Donna

    Just a quick response to this notion because this is precisely one of the reasons for all of this moment's brouhaha, and it reveals a core difference between us antiSwamp libertarians and Big Bro worshiping SwampLovers represented by the progressives here on SS.

    What in H, E, Double Hockey Sticks with openness in a nation "of the people, by the people and for the people?"

    Donna,

    To pb, and I'm guessing to OD, and to tens of millions of Americans, this "openness" is a good thing...one of the (and, since this is Friday, and in honor of po) EFFIN best things about empowered by the Constitution. It's a tendency toward democracy in our constitutional republic.

    Why do you think openness in government is a bad thing? Why do you want openness to be tempered?


  30. by oldedude on January 6, 2023 4:37 am
    I do. Personally, I have some concerns about McCarthy also. He made a deal with the great Satan (little nancy), for votes and satan being satan, reneged on them. Two votes were on 48 hours notice after she said she would give three full days on all bills from now on. Congress didn't have enough time to read them. McCarthy still fulfilled his promises after he screwed the GOP. She got the votes and made sure that (sic) "infrastructure bill" got passed, then totally screwed over the GOP. Live and learn.



  31. by HatetheSwamp on January 6, 2023 4:49 am

    OD,

    These recent concessions McCarthy is reportedly offering to the Freedom Caucus would, in effect, "deSwamp" House rules and weaken the power of the Speaker. Dems grooved on making Nancy, essentially, a dictator. And, face it. All Dems seem to love autocracy. So do the SwampGOPs. McCarthy clearly would have loved all of the power Nancy accumulated for herself, which Dems happily granted. But, this is precisely what we antiSwampers deplore.


  32. by oldedude on January 6, 2023 7:06 am
    Lead, I'm not sure if they do consider "openness" a "thing." But that's a major feature of the non swampers. Transparency in the government. This is where DeSantis has thrived. Like his decision or not, His administration has been up front about things. If it doesn't work, it's not "so-and-so's" fault. He accepts the results if they work as he thought, and if it's a win, he uses the term "we" and tells you who that "we" is. pedojoe said he was going to run on transparency, which his administration has been anything but. That said, I also think his handlers may be afraid of him getting out there and saying stuff he shouldn't.


  33. by islander on January 6, 2023 7:36 am
    "After 11 ballots, the Republicans remain unable to elect a speaker and thus unable to organize the House.

    After passing comprehensive laws on a wide range of issues with a similarly small House majority under Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-CA) during the last Congress, the Democrats remain united behind Hakeem Jeffries. They have delivered 212 votes for him 11 times.

    The contrast is stark.

    Throughout the day, the allies of Republican leader Kevin McCarthy (CA) negotiated with the 20 extremists who refuse to back him, apparently offering them more and more power to win their votes. McCarthy has allegedly agreed to their demand that a single person can force a vote to get rid of the speaker, a demand that puts him at their mercy and that he had previously insisted he would never accept. He has also apparently offered members of the hard-right Freedom Caucus two spots on the House Rules Committee, which decides how measures will be presented to the House, and given them control over appropriations bills. He is also said to be considering letting them choose committee chairs, jumping over those with seniority.

    This will not sit well with the rest of the conference. Lawyer and Washington Post columnist George Conway wrote, “I’m no political scientist, but it does strike me that a guy who negotiates by giving stuff up and and getting nothing in return probably wouldn’t make a good leader of a legislative body.”

    If McCarthy does eventually win the speakership, he will have empowered a small group of extremists to control the House, and the next two years will be a constant fight as this tiny minority can hamstring the government. One of the extremists, Ralph Norman (R-SC), who wanted Trump to declare martial law in 2021 in order to retain the White House, said that McCarthy will get his vote only if he agrees not to raise the debt ceiling and will instead shut down the government and default on the national debt."
    *

    * HCR



  34. by HatetheSwamp on January 6, 2023 9:08 am

    Except for the praise the Dems' SwampFascism, Heather's saying much of what pb's been saying GOPs governing since The ONE was President.

    Still, addled by prejudice and hate...AGAIN...she's failing to acknowledge the determination of the GOP antiSwamp. She's assuming that the GOPs are the Dems. They ain't.


  35. by Donna on January 6, 2023 9:59 am

    Leaving the process of sekecting a SOTH open ended opens the possibility of a government shutdown being open ended, which of course would be tragic for America.






  36. by HatetheSwamp on January 6, 2023 11:02 am

    I've said that I'm certain that, in the event of a genuine crisis, the GOPs would elect McCarthy. They can always do the House version of a recall later on. One demand that my antiSwampers wouldn't back down on is lowering the number of representatives required for a "motion to vacate." So, Donna, as Jesus said, "Let no your heart be troubled."

    You should be thanking the antiSwamp gang.


  37. by Donna on January 6, 2023 11:19 am

    Your antiSwampers despise your guy so much they forced him to agree to allowing just one House member to call for a vote on whether or not to allow him to remain SOTH. 10% of the GOP House were willing to keep the government shut down indefinitely unless he agreed to that. If your guy McCarthy wins, it'll be a hollow victory as he will become a puppet of the vast minority of Americans, even Republicans.


  38. by HatetheSwamp on January 6, 2023 11:31 am

    Why's he my guy?

    Honestly, Donna. What's so objectionable to you about vigorous and, potentially, chaotic democracy? Seriously. I truly don't get it.


  39. by Donna on January 6, 2023 12:02 pm

    Now you're going to deny supporting Kevin McCarthy for SOTH?

    I don't think chaos is ever good. I guess if you think you'd be insulated from the fallout of chaos and are a self-absorbed narcissist, you might be okay with it. That's not how I roll, though.

    Like as much as I'd like to see Medicare For All become a reality, something that tens of millions of Americans including Sheri and I would greatly benefit from if it were implemented properly, I wouldn't support shutting down the government to improve the prospects of getting it.


  40. by HatetheSwamp on January 6, 2023 12:05 pm

    When did I ever even remotely imply that I support McCarthy? The only support I've ever stated is for the antiSwamp crowd.


  41. by oldedude on January 6, 2023 12:07 pm
    "Why's he my guy?"

    I agree, neither of us has supported him at all. But they do the same thing with Trump. If you agree with anything about him, including things he has nothing to do with, you're a Trumpster. No matter how many times it's proved wrong.


  42. by Donna on January 6, 2023 12:30 pm

    I was wrong, Hts. I think what happened is that I misread a post where you said that Trump was pulling for McCarthy. My bad.


  43. by HatetheSwamp on January 6, 2023 12:40 pm

    Okay, Donna.

    To be clear, at this point I think it's likely that McCarthy will become Speaker but I think that he will be a poor leader and an ineffective Speaker.


  44. by oldedude on January 6, 2023 2:09 pm
    I think he's going to be the worst in a very long time for the GOP.


  45. by HatetheSwamp on January 6, 2023 2:23 pm

    And, GOPs haven't had an effective Speaker in a looooooooong time...in my opinion.

    There's good reason not to have backed him.


  46. by HatetheSwamp on January 6, 2023 2:23 pm

    And, GOPs haven't had an effective Speaker in a looooooooong time...in my opinion.

    There's good reason not to have backed him.


  47. by HatetheSwamp on January 6, 2023 2:23 pm

    And, GOPs haven't had an effective Speaker in a looooooooong time...in my opinion.

    There's good reason not to have backed him.


  48. by Donna on January 6, 2023 6:42 pm

    McCarthy has had the backing of at least 90% of the Republican House members throughout the entire 13 rounds, but the 10% is calling all the shots.

    That's what's going to hurt the GOP more than any other factor moving forward. Two years from now, the GOP House will have accomplished nothing.

    I look forward to the Democrats winning back control of the House in 2024.


  49. by oldedude on January 6, 2023 6:58 pm
    You mean, like the squad did to little nancy?


  50. by oldedude on January 6, 2023 7:38 pm
    So this is what drew 15 of the conservatives over. McCarthy gave these up. I'm actually impressed by what was asked for. It gives more responsibility to the Representative that was taken from the Speaker. The 15 that agreed to the conditions were a pretty big range of membership. From Jim Jordan to Anna Paulina Luna, (FL).

    In the past, the speaker decided which bills went to the committee, and which were put on terminal hold. What was agreed to was a one of the committees will push through bills that make the cut.

    What this does is to take the speaker and their bribes, graft, and corruption out of it. So if there are bribes, the entire committee is in on it. Both parties also. Of TWO committees. That's a lot of work and too many people knowing who's bribing who. Of course, this will be changed when the dims get back in because they love centralized corruption.

    The final concessions that McCarthy negotiated were enough to bring over a group of fellow elected lawmakers who had voted against him repeatedly on 12 successive votes, amid the prolonged televised spectacle.

    They got nearly everything they asked for – beyond subcommittee gavels that other members of the Conference rejected as an unfair boost, although McCarthy still wasn't able to prevail on the 13th vote to elect him as Speaker.

    A single member would get to move to 'vacate the chair.' This reverts to prior procedure, which Freedom Caucus to threaten former Speaker John Boehner.

    McCarthy had already agreed to a five-vote requirement to make the motion, which sets up essentially a vote of no-confidence in the Speaker, and agreed to lower it to a single lawmaker.

    Members of the conservative House Freedom Caucus got commitments to be added to the Rules panel. The committee exerts tremendous power by setting the terms of debate, but usually operates as a tool of the Speaker. (It traditionally has a 9:4 ratio, so the majority never loses).

    With more representation, the conservatives will be able to help allow for floor amendments on policy issues and messaging opportunities from abortion to government spending.

    The panel also decides which members get the floor time and prestige of having their amendments debated – another opportunity to build up the profile of their faction.


    My thought. McCarthy will take the helm tonight. I don't think Gaetz will ever vote for him.

    I was pretty impressed with what the HFC asked for. They'll take McCarthy, but it's going to be limited. And remember, ruling party gets to "approve" the other party's committee members.
    dailymail.co.uk


  51. by oldedude on January 7, 2023 2:47 am
    Welcome to US politics. On vote #14, four of the HFC voted for OTM (Other Than McCarthy). Thus the votes were counted in the overall number of votes.

    It looks like the agreement was that only McCarthy was brought to the floor by the GOP on vote #15. The HFC holdouts all voted "Present," which are not counted as a yea or nay vote, lowering the number needed to pass the motion. Both sides got what they wanted, and the HFC conceded to McCarthy. So an agreement was reached. And this came with some good ol' fashioned Italian/ Greek/ Eastern European fights when Mike Rogers lunged at Gaetz.

    And as Curt said, "this is how things get done," so apparently there's nothing negative to say about any of this.

    Now the real fighting begins with the new House Rules, which promises to be more difficult than getting a speaker. But I guess this is nothing compared to six+ years of committee work against Trump.

    I do agree with Curt, although I'm not near as "hateful" partisan as he. In order to pass anything, it has to get through the Senate (2/3 majority). This means if they want anything passed, it has to be palatable to both sides. My view has always been that is good for the country. Maybe pedojoe can actually live up to his election promise and actually work with the GOP instead of belittling them..... naw.... not gonna happen.


  52. by HatetheSwamp on January 7, 2023 2:58 am

    That's what's going to hurt the GOP more than any other factor moving forward. Two years from now, the GOP House will have accomplished nothing.

    I look forward to the Democrats winning back control of the House in 2024.


    pb has proved that GOPs don't govern well from Congress. GOPs don't govern well from Congress...EVEN WHEN THEY HAVE BOTH HOUSES!

    They didn't well in 017 and 018 when they had Trump plus both Houses...except for passing that law that lowered our taxes.

    So, PTTP, this Speaker election made you hope that the Dems win the House in 024. Really? It was a toss-up for you before that? You weren't sure if you hoped the GOPs would win?


    pb is not so sure that what the House is left with is a bad thing. Clearly, the people of the Swamp expect this to be a disaster. But, Nancy Pelosi ran the House, in the last Congress virtually singlehandedly. Now, the Speaker is accountable to the members of the House. How horrible. How democratic!! No one should have let this happen!

    The Swamp commentators are suggesting that a House in which the people are actually represented is, somehow, a tragic reality. I honestly don't understand that...other than that the people of the Swamp have become so brazen and arrogant that they forget that we're supposed to pretend that ours is a government "of the people, by the people and for the people."

    What is true is that this victory is a bit of a loss for McCarthy. He hoped to wield the power Nancy possessed. But, that wasn't in the cards. Dems are subservient. They accept Big Brother leadership. Dems March in lockstep. It's in their DNA. Not GOPs. GOPs have gristle.

    Well, pb thinks that this is a victory for the people.


  53. by HatetheSwamp on January 7, 2023 4:20 am

    I do agree with Curt, although I'm not near as "hateful" partisan as he. In order to pass anything, it has to get through the Senate (2/3 majority). This means if they want anything passed, it has to be palatable to both sides. My view has always been that is good for the country. Maybe pedojoe can actually live up to his election promise and actually work with the GOP instead of belittling them..... naw.... not gonna happen.
    -OD

    I see two issues.

    One is that there's a lot GOPs are for that's popular with independents. The House will be able to pass those measures and the Dem Senate will have to go on the record in opposition. And, House Dems in purple districts, will have to expose themselves for 024. Or, the Former Trucker will have to veto. All will be bad for Dems.

    The other is that GOPs...now heavily influenced by their very conservative members and being fairly antiSwamp...control committees and, therefore, the hearings. There'll be a ton of propaganda power in that.

    Those FBI whistle-blowers are going to have their day. That'll, no doubt, be deadly for the Swamp. And, as Curt suggests, lots of images of Hunter working a crack pipe while getting a bj from a stripper...NOT...bahahahahahahahahahaha.


  54. by Donna on January 7, 2023 7:16 am

    "You mean, like the squad did to little nancy" - od

    No. The squad has never controlled Pelosi.


  55. by oldedude on January 7, 2023 7:21 am
    I agree, there were lots of things that were changed ONLY because they were Trump's idea. (border, pipeline, oil in general, jobs including oil in the Gulf, Alaska, CONUS, offshore, etc (this means good paying jobs also in the inner city), chucking the auto manufacturing industry in the US, coal, agriculture, etc).

    I had mentioned what you said earlier. Having them go on record as hating small businesses, being racist, refusing to work with the DACA issue, and a plethora of other things they will stonewall the GOP on. pedojoe will continue to say "I'm trying to work with the GOP, but remember they're anti-constitutionalists, racists, a threat to our "democracy," and ah...ah...ah... oh, I'm being pulled away." "Where's that guy that was supposed to shake my had when I turned? Where's the door?" "why am I on this stage?" Opps, that wasn't gas. Good thing my depends work... Oh! maybe Neilia and I can have some poo play!"

    I'm hoping the GOP demands the transparency they promised. I think it's a good idea to go in a committee first. This is like going to grand jury, except they can stop the process if needed without an issue, or have a basis for criminal proceedings if necessary. Not some haphazard "grab your pitchforks! Let's get the monster!"


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