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History selectors, pages, etc.
How The South Won The Civil War
By islander
December 10, 2023 1:02 pm
Category: History

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For those who love to read and love learning about our nations history, this is another EXCELLENT book. It’s actually the precursor to HCR’s newest book “Democracy Awakening” I read ”How The South Won The Civil War” several months ago and this book inspired me to get Heather’s newest book. Both are phenomenal and I guarantee you that you’ll learn things about our history that you never knew before!

This is the review by Book EM Dano:

“How The South Won The Civil War” which starts with; “The book that teaches that the most obscure jokes in "Blazing Saddles" were based on real history”. Since the review is somewhat long, I’ll post it in two parts.

"Blazing Saddles" was a monumental comedy that gave one shin kick after another to the supposedly separate subjects of anti-black bigotry and the Western cowboy mythology. Besides the 8th grade humor moments ("More beans, Mr. Taggert?") there were just some jokes and references that seemed completely put together with Super Glue (even though I'm pretty sure the latter hadn't been invented yet). When Sheriff Bart and the Waco Kid first face off against Hedy ("That's Hedley!") Lamarr's bad guys, Slim Pickens (in one of his 3 epic movie roles) goes into a complaint about how the cowboys had taken the "good time and effort" to shoot all the native Americans (not the term he used) and here the governor had "appointed a sheriff darker than any of them." And of course, there's the line I can't repeat, that ends with "but we don't want the Irish!" Most of us, even those of us who studied some history, thought that these were artificial constructs Mel Brooks had put together to take down all sorts of bigotry. Certainly, it did that, while spoofing Marlene Dietrich (epic performance by Madeline Kahn).

What happens when you read a book by a real historian (Heather Cox Richardson) and find out that, in fact, racism against African Americans and Native Americans and Asian Americans (mostly Chinese immigrants at that time) and Latins (mostly Mexican Americans at that time) and the Irish were not separate threads, but a continuation of the Antebellum South into the West? What happens when you realize that the few women in the movie parody the roles written into the mythology (either the upright wives, mothers, and very loud school teachers or the dance hall girls/prostitutes)? There's this moment of, "Wait! That stuff was real?" Cont...


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Comments on "How The South Won The Civil War":

  1. by islander on December 10, 2023 1:05 pm

    Part two:

    “For me, it's not that I hadn't learned something about the threads, but I hadn't realized that they were so tightly woven together by the same people, with the same mindsets. This book has done that for me. Moreover, HCR has shown how the language used so much today by the far right to disparage government that helps average, hard working Americans, is the same as the language used by former slave owners to deny voting rights to freed black slaves and poor white farmers. The tropes of "socialism" and "income redistribution" do not arise from some well researched, peer reviewed, academic studies in the 1970s, but are the sound bites used by southern (and then western) oligarchs in the 1850s, the 1880s, the 1920s, and since the 1950s. What has changed is that the mythology has moved to the "independent Western cowboy", but this mythology is also based on denying women and people of color their rights.

    After reading this, when you hear the tropes of "socialism" and "income redistribution" every time someone talks about the very wealthy paying their fair share in taxes, or talks about not destroying the environment, or about a government that works to even the playing field and make life better for average, hard working Americans, remember that those tropes are belong with oligarchs and the Confederacy, not a government "of the people, by the people, and for the people." Rather than seeing these as individual and separate threads, now we can set them at the places of their historical origin and thereby debunk them for what they really are.”


  2. by Curt_Anderson on December 10, 2023 1:53 pm
    When I was a kid in Wisconsin, I was shocked when we drove to grandparents' home in Florida seeing the stars and bars flag everywhere. I had learned that the North won the Civil War, so the Confederate flags seemed more than weird to me.

    The way the South "won" the Civil War is a lot like Donald Trump's supporters after 2020, isolated Japanese soldiers who held out for years after WWII, and other dead-enders. They simply refuse to admit their loss.

    Blatant bigotry against Blacks, Chinese, the Irish et cetera is fortunately out of style. But bigotry still exists. Consider the irrational animosity toward asylum seekers and other immigrants. These are people who have crossed thousands of treacherous miles on foot who want nothing more than a chance to work. The jobs they'd gladly take are the sorts of jobs that employers cannot fill.


  3. by oldedude on December 10, 2023 7:48 pm
    Or consider the Jewish population that is only 2% of our population but has 60% of the religious hate crimes in our country.

    FBI director warns antisemitism in US reaching 'historic levels' Antisemitism in the US is reaching "historic levels" in the wake of violence in Israel and Gaza, FBI Director Christopher Wray has warned.

    Speaking to a senate panel on Tuesday, Mr Wray said 60% of all religious-based hate crimes targeted Jewish people.
    He added that the figure had likely increased amid anger caused by the ongoing violence in Gaza.
    Other countries, including the UK and France, have also warned of a recent major uptick in antisemitic incidents.
    "This is a threat that is reaching, in some way, sort of historic levels," Mr Wray told the Senate Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs Committee.


    Why did the FBI undercount antisemitic hate crimes?

    n a typical year, the numbers are the story: Jews are about 2% of Americans but have topped the FBI’s religiously motivated hate crime category “since 1991, often registering between 9-13% of overall hate [crime] totals.” This year, though, the story is why the FBI’s data so undercounted antisemitic hate crimes that Congress wants revised statistics.

    Last week, the FBI reported there were 324 antisemitic hate crimes in 2021, about one-third of the year's 1,013 religiously motivated crimes. By contrast, there were 683 antisemitic hate crimes in 2020, approximately 55% of the total. And 2019 saw 963 antisemitic hate crimes, about 63% of that pre-pandemic year’s total.

    Several organizations that track hate crimes believe the FBI’s 2021 number is an undercount. And the FBI, which did not respond to requests for comment, seemingly agrees; last month, FBI Director Christopher Wray said a “full 63% of religious hate crimes are motivated by antisemitism.”


    Or consider asian students who aren't given access to our best universities even though they score higher on the standardized tests the universities invented than others, but because of their race, they are not considered.

    Admission Considerations in Higher Education Among Asian Americans

    While Asian is considered the fastest growing racial group between 2000 and 2010, Asians constitute approximately 5 percent of the U.S. population and is the third underrepresented minority group (U.S. Census Bureau, 2011). Ironically, elite college administrators expressed concerns that they may have Student on campus "too many" Asians enrolled in higher education system (Jaschik, 2006). Especially after the Supreme Court's Bakke decision in 1978, a fear reaction began to spread in the Asian community as they believed that their chance of being accepted at elite universities might be limited due to their disfavored race. To top the fear, a National Study of College Experience led by Espenshade and Radford (2009) showed that a student who self-identifies as Asian will need 140 SAT points higher than whites, 320 SAT points higher than Hispanics, and 450 SAT points higher than African Americans.



    US supreme court rules against affirmative action in Harvard and UNC cases
    The US supreme court, driven by its conservative supermajority, on Thursday ended race-conscious admissions at universities across the country, tossing out decades of precedent in American life and delivering a huge blow to the cause of greater student diversity on campuses.

    The conservative justices concluded that admissions policies at Harvard University and the University of North Carolina violated the US constitution’s equal protection clause. This effectively prohibits the use of affirmative action policies in the US that acted as a tipping point, among many other admission factors, to raise the number of Black, Hispanic and other underrepresented minority students at selective US higher education colleges and universities.

    The court concluded that Harvard and the University of North Carolina’s race-conscious admissions programs failed to abide by the narrow restrictions laid out by the court in previous cases, noting that university programs “must comply with strict scrutiny, may never use race as a stereotype or negative, and must – at some point – end”.

    bbc.com
    msn.com
    apa.org
    theguardian.com


  4. by oldedude on December 10, 2023 7:59 pm
    I guess there's not a damn thing wrong with keeping the kikes, zips, and slants down, but people illegally in our country are okay to bring in children to use for sex trafficking (which exceeds the net value of drugs brought into this country every year.

    Why? That 12-year old that got raped all the way into the US because they were kidnapped by the cartels is worth 100+ times more than a load of cocaine or any other drug. Why? because you only rent them. So they're worth 200g of pure fentanyl every time they're "rented." X 18-20x per day for those that can't figure out that it's a real fucking problem. If/when they die, they're thrown in a dumpster, discarded like a dog found on the highway.

    Yeah, THOSE are the jobs curt talks about. These are people who have crossed thousands of treacherous miles on foot who want nothing more than a chance to work. The jobs they'd gladly take are the sorts of jobs that employers cannot fill. Sounds like they hit the jackpot for jobs until they die. I guess they're employed, right curt?


  5. by Ponderer on December 10, 2023 8:41 pm

    You're right on the nose as usual, Curt. 👍


  6. by Indy! on December 10, 2023 9:33 pm

    So now we're pretending oligarchs only exist in the South? 😂


  7. by Curt_Anderson on December 10, 2023 10:14 pm
    I agree with the Libertarians.

    Libertarians believe that if someone is peaceful, they should be welcome to immigrate to the United States.
    Libertarians believe that people should be able to travel freely as long as they are peaceful. We welcome immigrants who come seeking a better life. The vast majority of immigrants are very peaceful and highly productive.

    Indeed, the United States is a country of immigrants, of all backgrounds and walks of life…some families have just been here for more generations than others. Newcomers bring great vitality to our society.

    A truly free market requires the free movement of people, not just products and ideas.

    Whether they are from India or Mexico, whether they have advanced degrees or very little education, immigrants have one great thing in common: they bravely left their familiar surroundings in search of a better life. Many are fleeing extreme poverty and violence and are searching for a free and safe place to try to build their lives. We respect and admire their courage and are proud that they see the United States as a place of freedom, stability, and prosperity.

    Of course, if someone has a record of violence, credible plans for violence, or acts violently, then Libertarians support blocking their entry, deporting, and/or prosecuting and imprisoning them, depending on the offense.

    Libertarians do not support classifying undocumented immigrants as criminals. Our current immigration system is an embarrassment. People who would like to follow the legal procedures are unable to because these procedures are so complex and expensive and lengthy. If Americans want immigrants to enter through legal channels, we need to make those channels fair, reasonable, and accessible.


    Indy, explain that last comment about oligarchs. We?
    lp.org


  8. by HatetheSwamp on December 11, 2023 3:38 am

    I get it that the performance of Claudine Gay makes you progressives squirm. This could be a huuuuuuuuuge advantage for GOPs in 024 and it may destroy woke thinking as it's practiced by the Donna and po branch of the woke, white electric limousine lovin progressive Swampcult. The splintered Dems are powerless.

    Truth?

    "Harvard’s Title IX training warns undergraduate students that disciplinary action may be taken if they promote “sizeism,” “fatphobia,” “cisheterosexism,” or “ableism.” That type of language, according to the university, would “contribute to an environment that perpetuates violence” and may be considered “abuse” and a violation of the school’s Title IX policies."

    Claudine Gay knew d@ngwell what Elise Stefanik was really asking. There's no good answer.

    Harvard has been busted and it's stuck with a diversity hire as President who couldn't say, at Harvard, "calling for the mass murder of African Americans" is not protected free speech. Of course, calling for the mass murder of African Americans ain't free speech.

    The fact that you are railing against the question proves the point that the left has been exposed.

    See both videos. This is powerful, powerful stuff. With that question, a new day dawned.

    Elise Stefanik has changed the EFFINnarrative...

    ForEFFINever.
    twitter.com
    View Video


  9. by HatetheSwamp on December 11, 2023 3:39 am

    Wrong thread. Sorry.


  10. by oldedude on December 11, 2023 6:09 am
    curt- Libertarians believe that if someone is peaceful, they should be welcome to immigrate to the United States.

    You and I (and I'm pretty sure Lead) have always agree on this. The issue is, if your borders are open, how can you believe who is "peaceful" or not? We have a massive amount of Chinese, which doesn't sound too weird, except you'll be shot for trying to leave the country. You have to have permission to leave. That means the CCP is using you for something.🤔

    There are also many coming in from Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, Iran. These are NOT people going through the checkpoints and asking for amnesty. They are illegally crossing the border trying not to be discovered. They're called "got-aways."

    1.5M ‘gotaways’ have slipped into the US under Biden — three times as many as during 3 years of Trump
    More than 1.5 million illegal migrants have slipped into the US since Joe Biden took office — more than three times the number recorded during the last three years of Trump’s presidency, Department of Homeland Security data shows.

    A staggering 530,000 so called ‘gotaways’ — illegal immigrants known to have entered the country but not been caught — have been recorded since last October, according to US Border Patrol.

    The number is set to beat 2022’s record figure of 600,000 gotaways and the 389,000 people Homeland Security Secretary Alejandro Mayorkas admitted had made their way into the country undetected in 2021.

    Those numbers are much higher than the estimated 415,000 total gotaways DHS recorded for 2018, 2019 and 2020 while Trump was then president.

    The DHS data covers the agency’s financial year, which runs from October — meaning there are still four months before the 2023 figures will be complete.

    nypost.com


  11. by HatetheSwamp on December 11, 2023 6:29 am

    OD,

    Curt seems to leap over liberty to advocate for anarchy...

    ...I think he's joshin us. He's not that stoopid.

    Yeah, pb thinks that there should be reasonable immigration law. He's been saying that here for at least 15 years.

    The fact that nearly every American agrees with him on that and all the dysfunctional and corrupt people in DC can do is roll out talking points to raise money is a leading reason that I am HatetheSwamp.

    That Curt enables Swamp idiocy and evil confounds me. But, that's Curt's defining thought.


  12. by HatetheSwamp on December 11, 2023 6:45 am

    isle,

    Moreover, HCR has shown how the language used so much today by the far right to disparage government that helps average, hard working Americans, is the same as the language used by former slave owners to deny voting rights to freed black slaves and poor white farmers.

    How precious!

    I've mentioned here several times that in Nineteen Eighty-Four, after the story of Winston Smith ends, Orwell adds a chapter on Big Brother's appropriation of language...

    ...AND, HE NAILS HEATHER AND YOU TO THE WALL!

    Wear that with pride. You've been busted.


  13. by islander on December 11, 2023 7:18 am

    ”The way the South "won" the Civil War is a lot like Donald Trump's supporters after 2020, isolated Japanese soldiers who held out for years after WWII, and other dead-enders. They simply refuse to admit their loss.”



    True !!

    The Confederates lost militarily on the battle field, but the Civil War never ended, since the war for the minds and hearts of Americans has continued to this day. The Confederates came close to victory several times since the Civil War and we are in a fierce battle with them right now. The Confederate mindset today can now be found in a high proportion of Americans across our country through out the South and the North.

    One of the things that I found rewarding when reading Heather’s books was the clarity with which she was able to follow the dots from our past history right up to today. I always knew, for instance, that the Democratic and Republican Parties today are not at all the same parties they were in the past including the recent past. What Heather does remarkably well is tell the story of when, why, and why these changes took place.

    Like you, my first experience visiting and seeing the South was when I was kid traveling from New England to Hialeah FL to spend the summer there with relatives. This was before I-95 so we went down the old way (301) and had to take some of the back roads. I remember stopping in Richmond, VA and seeing for the first time the signs on the rest rooms and on the public drinking fountains 
..."Whites Only", and then driving through the Carolinas and Georgia seeing the small shacks in the fields that, to use the terminology of that time, that the "Negros" lived in. When we were in Ecuador in the 80's those shacks in the fields here at home looked just like the the ones in the "oil drilling frontier towns" in the Amazon Basin, in which the displaced indigenous people lived.


  14. by islander on December 11, 2023 7:33 am

    Edit: The above should read; "What Heather does remarkably well is tell the story of when, why where, and why these changes took place.


  15. by oldedude on December 11, 2023 9:43 am
    The Confederates lost militarily on the battle field, but the Civil War never ended, since the war for the minds and hearts of Americans has continued to this day. The Confederates came close to victory several times since the Civil War and we are in a fierce battle with them right now. The Confederate mindset today can now be found in a high proportion of Americans across our country through out the South and the North.

    First, that should be a hint. And you're confusing "southerners" and "constitutionalists." The first is from a region with specific food and different cultures throughout the Southeast. The second are those not trying to rewrite the constitution for their own fun. They've actually read the constitution and teach their children how to read it and what it means. The first meaning is that opposed to mopsy (or buffy or whatever) we're not in a democracy. I find it funny that a "historian" couldn't get that right. Constitutionalists are the ones that actually understand we have three branches of government. That opposed to most of the rest of the countries on earth, OUR constitution was formed to limit the federal government, not the people. For the left, that's so foreign, the vast majority don't to believe it's true. You don't understand the states have the right to hold most of the power.


  16. by HatetheSwamp on December 11, 2023 10:43 am

    First, that should be a hint. And you're confusing "southerners" and "constitutionalists.

    I think that it goes far beyond that. He's making them the source of every evil. Like the original Nazis did with the Jews. It ain't pretty.


  17. by islander on December 11, 2023 11:27 am

    Heather does an excellent job of describing what’s known as the American paradox. It’s something that resonates throughout our history. The paradox is that the ideals expressed in our Declaration of Independence, which we (most of us) pride ourselves on, and our our Constitution as originally written by it’s framers were not in sync.

    The framers knew the Constitution was not perfect and wisely made it possible, in order to build a more perfect union, to amend it (fix it).



    ”We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,

    ”

However, the way in which the framers of our Constitution designed it, it only applied to an elite few, it did not apply to all men. The Confederates wanted to keep it that way, as George Fitzhugh of Virginia, put it so bluntly in 1857; “We do not agree with the authors of the Declaration of Independence, that governments ‘derive their just powers from the consent of the governed.” All governments must originate in force, and be continued by force. “There were eighteen thousand people in his county and only twelve hundred could vote,” he said, “but we twelve hundred [the elite] . . . never asked and never intend to ask the consent of the sixteen thousand eight hundred whom we govern.”

    

And that, of course, makes it perfectly clear why the 
State’s rights/Constitutionalists Confederates of today are so frightened by Democracy.




  18. by oldedude on December 11, 2023 12:34 pm
    I read your ramble. Not particularly impressive. My answer to you and muffy is NOT to tear it apart. You want to do it, there's a way to. Do it that way or move 30 miles to your local Iroquois nation. And keep going.


  19. by islander on December 11, 2023 4:29 pm

    And it's not just Democracy that scares them !! 🤣


  20. by oldedude on December 12, 2023 12:52 am
    It's actually the LACK of any type of democratic system left in the US if the dims take over. All those things I mentioned are things the dims have either actively attempted to do or have discussed (putting conservatives in "camps" like the Chinese have the Uigurs in, or what the Nazis did to the Jews, gays, "artists," Gypsie's, Catholics, and others the party felt were a "hinderance to the social structure)."

    The issue is the constitutionalists are almost half the country, and the other half are part of the National Socialist American Workers Party (which has nothing to do with "socialism" per se). This is akin to the National Socialist German Workers Party of the 1930's and 1940's.

    Like pedojoe said: Your children are not your children; they belong to the government(Apr, 2022) And in April, 2023, "There is no such thing as someone else’s child. No such thing as someone else’s child. Our nation’s children are all our children,”

    This is emphasized as teachers that don't tow the line of the National Socialist American Workers Party have not been allowed back into the school buildings. Just like the National Socialist German Workers Party.

    If you want to argue this, I can.
    realclearpolitics.com
    mustreadalaska.com
    msn.com
    ijr.com


  21. by islander on December 12, 2023 6:53 am

    Just as they fear democracy, the other thing that frightens today’s Confederates (right wing Republicans)...is TRUTH. Fighting truth is their war. and it’s an unwindable war.



    Some of them are fully aware of this and to achieve their goals they’ll do everything they can to hide it from others... many even try to hide it from themselves.

    

As Heather clearly shows, they can win some short term battles but cannot win the war. They cannot defeat reality. In the end Truth/Reality will, ultimately, ALWAYS win.




  22. by HatetheSwamp on December 12, 2023 7:02 am

    isle,

    I can't count the number of times, over who knows over how years, I've pointed out that your way of thinking is the way of the bigot. You can't think differently than anyone without condemning.

    "Today's Confederates (right wing Republicans)" are puuuuuuuure evil. Yeah, you already said that. They are the cause of all of the world's evils.

    Curiously, if Curt wrote that, I'd ask if he's joshin. With you?, I know that there's no chance....


  23. by oldedude on December 12, 2023 7:29 am
    It's also the same lack of empathy to those that are victims of their destructive thoughts. They want open borders but don't care at all about the victims of their choice. They can have hundreds of thousands of slaves enter into the US IF IT"S THEM who brings them in. And it seems like they never get it. ACTIONS HAVE CONSEQUINCES. But it's that's for thee, but not of mee. Kind of like the french laundry, or getting your hair done, or any of the other things they forced the public to do, but they wouldn't.

    As the germans were eating bread made mainly of sawdust, the Nazi hierarchy was dining on glorious meals. So I guess I shouldn't be surprised at any of this.


  24. by HatetheSwamp on December 12, 2023 7:50 am

    IMO, if it were mere lack of empathy, that would be a good thing. But, I'm convinced, that it's full-blown enmity. isle's an active hater. The hate enlivens the dialog but it's always dark.


  25. by islander on December 12, 2023 7:59 am

    “America was born in idealism and the profound principle that all human beings had a right to self determination. It grew up, though, in an environment that limited that right to white men of property. The struggle between these two concepts determined the early years of the American republic. In1860, when the conflict between democracy and the hierarchical ideology of the slaveholders became irreconcilable, Americans set out to reclaim the government from an oligarchy and rededicate it to the proposition that all men are created equal. While they won, they never erased the slaveholders‘ ideology completely.”*



    Hence their fear of democracy.



    *HCR



  26. by HatetheSwamp on December 12, 2023 8:15 am

    Americans set out to reclaim the government from an oligarchy and rededicate it to the proposition that all men are created equal.

    Oyfreakinvey, isle.

    Does Heather, do you, understand that the latest iteration of that vision is MAGA?, and the so-called oligarchy that MAGA has set out to reclaim the government from is the Big Brother Swamp that she, and you, love so passionately!!!!!?

    You're a hoot, bubba!


  27. by oldedude on December 12, 2023 9:48 am


    America was born in idealism and the profound principle that all human beings had a right to self determination.
    This is exactly what I've been saying this entire thread. "SELF determination" meaning I have a right to raise my children as I deem necessary (not what the government decides for me). I have a right to make myself successful. Or not. As I choose.

    It grew up, though, in an environment that limited that right to white men of property. The struggle between these two concepts determined the early years of the American republic. In1860, when the conflict between democracy and the hierarchical ideology of the slaveholders became irreconcilable, Americans set out to reclaim the government from an oligarchy and rededicate it to the proposition that all men are created equal.
    Had muffy actually known how the south worked, that would be the last thing she said. They used the US constitution as their own, and change some of the thoughts. The major changes had to do with states rights (which muffy and other leftists don't recognize in our constitution). They expanded states rights and produced a "Confederation" of states. This was actually a melting between the US first "constitution," and the constitution of the second Continental Congress.

    While they won, they never erased the slaveholders‘ ideology completely.
    This is where we disagree. What has survived is the view of the common person that believes the federal government has limited powers, and the states have the rest, as set out by the second Continental Congress. And a fear of the federal government overstepping and becoming a dictatorship.

    I would have thought that any "historian" would have actually read the documents to make a point. I know this is the ONLY place you go to for information. I know you believe in muffy beyond anyone. Which makes you a perfect sheep.


  28. by Ponderer on December 12, 2023 10:27 am

    "Hence their fear of democracy.

" -Isle

    Islander, you are so right. The Republican party is left with little choice but to hate democracy. It sure doesn't do them any favors. As they always insist on pushing policies and agendas that only a small minority of the country approves of, they will always lose in a fair and democratic race. Other than in totally red states where the stupidity is too inbred for the populace there to realize how the GOP fucksthemover every time.

    In the states with the worst per capita health care, obesity, child poverty, drug problems, crime, and numerous other bullet points, are for the large part red states. People in those states will vote for the Republican no matter how badly the incompetent asshole is going to fuckthemover. They are sure gluttons for punishment, I'll give 'em that much.

    But yeah, the Republican party has nothing to like about the American system of democracy and democratic elections. And if they don't like that they are so hated and loathed by the majority of the electorate, they can simply begin to promote policies that actually help the average and low income citizens of this country.


    And Curt, you totally nailed it again!






  29. by HatetheSwamp on December 12, 2023 10:59 am

    One of the amusing tricks that people who study history play on themselves is to see what's admirable in the past and declare, "That's me!!!"

    Baha.

    Well, gang, I ain't a Big Brother Swamplover and I ain't MAGA but I watch those Trump rallies and listen to the mommies and daddies and nannas and pappaps declare their love for America. They are the "of the people, by the people and for the people" crowd.

    Period.


  30. by islander on December 12, 2023 12:08 pm

    I’ve watched all this take place. It’s not something I had to learn in school or read in a history book. I still vividly remember seeing this on the nightly news and in the papers at the same time it was happening. I remember the Democrats George Wallace and Strom Thurmond, back then they were often called Dixiecrats. I also remember the Eisenhower Republicans. My family was staunchly Republican and as a kid growing up in a Republican family so was I. But they were not the Republicans of today. The Dixiecrats (southern conservative Democrats) are the MAGA Republicans of today. They now rule the Republican Party.

    

I watched that transformation take place, from Eisenhower to Trump, who is the head of the present Republican party.



    The Dixiecrats and the Republicans of today used the ‘states rights‘ argument for the same reasons as their forbearers, the old Confederates. And all of us today, except for maybe the most naive know exactly why. However, if anyone still doesn’t know, all you’d have to see was George Wallace, like I did, as he stood on the steps of the school blocking those black children from entering...then you’d know. 



    The original framers of the Constitution lived in a different time and culture, and although they expressed our ideal that all men are created equal, they not only owned and sold other people, but the way they drew it up...the Constitution allowed it. If a group of people in one area wanted to own and sell people, even if the majority of the people in our country opposed it and knew that it was an abomination...That group of people, under the banner of “states rights” could do just that...They did not want the Federal Government to be able to tell them they couldn’t and it almost resulted in the destruction of our country...The Civil War... Which brought Lincoln to say;


    “A house divided against itself cannot stand,” Lincoln warned Americans. “I believe this government cannot endure, permanently half slave and half free. I do not expect the Union to be dissolved—I do not expect the house to fall—but I do expect it will cease to be divided. It will become all one thing or all the other. Either the opponents of slavery, will arrest the further spread of it, and place it where the public mind shall rest in the belief that it is in the course of ultimate extinction; or its advocates will push it forward, till it shall become alike lawful in all the States, old as well as new—North as well as South.”



    Today, we know better but the Republican party today is dominated and ruled by people who want to go back to the way it was when the framers drew up our Constitution and this is why they will fail. The picture below describes the story perfectly.

    .
    .
    .


  31. by HatetheSwamp on December 12, 2023 12:25 pm

    The Dixiecrats and the Republicans of today used the ‘states rights‘ argument for the same reasons as their forbearers, the old Confederates.

    You're, as po might say, an EFFINliar. I hear GOPs these days preach the glories of INDIVIDUAL rights, but not state rights.

    In fact, the only SS poster I know of to bring up state rights is you... to create a strawman, as you're doing now.

    ...the Republican party today is dominated and ruled by people who want to go back to the way it was when the framers drew up our Constitution and this is why they will fail. The picture below describes the story perfectly./b>

    Bull$#!t.

    As pb's noted repeatedly. While the truth is that the GOP is the home of openness and inclusion, acceptance, diversity, tolerance and freedom, most of us, generally, embrace the punch line of the Dobbs decision, which overturned Roe v. Wade... that these matters should be determined "by the people and their elected representatives."

    IOW, "of the people, by the people and for the people," BABY!

    You're thinking like a bigot again... judging an entire group of people by the behavior of a tiny minority of its members...

    ...as Hitler did with the Jews, and then, only after misrepresenting and exaggerating.


  32. by islander on December 12, 2023 12:35 pm

    Ponderer, I took a little time off to evaluate whether I was simply wasting my time here and concluded that I was as long as I kept responding to OD and Hates' posts. Why encourage them? Now I will simply ignore them and ignore their hate filled lies and nonsense. They do not and probably cannot argue in good faith and my time is much too valuable to me to waste any of it on them.

    Anything I post now simply will be what I'd like to say. I simply no longer take them into account...They can spout their childish nonsense all they want, even on my topics, but they will only end up making fools of themselves as they usually do.

    Cheers to you Pondy and to Donna and Curt. I'll be looking forward to reading your posts !!! 🍻


  33. by HatetheSwamp on December 12, 2023 12:47 pm

    Cheers to you Pondy and to Donna and Curt.

    Don't forget Indy!. Bahahahahahahahahaha.


  34. by Donna on December 12, 2023 1:13 pm

    Hi islander. First of all, welcome back! I should have said that last week after you returned. I was disappointed when you left, but I understood why. I too have taken many vacations from this forum over the 20 years I've been a contributor. In fact I decided to take a break a few days ago after I was labeled a Hamas loving neo-Nazi. I have thick skin so to speak and normally name-calling doesn't faze me, that is unless I'm accused of being a part of a mindset I despise with every fiber of my being. I will not tolerate that from anyone.

    I noticed yesterday that you stopped responding to your two detractors. I think that was a good decision and frankly it's why I decided to cut my vacation short. And I will follow your lead.


  35. by Ponderer on December 12, 2023 1:14 pm

    Thanks, Isle. Boy Donna and I can relate. I've lost count of the times that the both of us have thrown up our hands is abject disgust at the irrational, pig-ignorant, sociopathic inhumanity and and arrogant idiocy that spews from those two and declared "THAT'S IT! I'm DONE with that place and those babbling clowns!".

    od can have moments of lucidity that actually can make him sound reasonable, but he always manages to go off onto irrelevant tangents or he wants to start a whole new discussion in the middle of yours. He's actually rather intelligent, but there's always a wheel that ain't fully on the track with him. Even when he makes good points, he'll inevitably end with some ridiculously insulting, asinine idiocy that erases any gains that he may have made up to that point.

    Hate is just an asshole looking for opportunities to be an asshole at others' expense. He feeds off it somehow. Like it's an addiction he has. He's gotta know how wrong he is pretty much all the time. But it never matters how much you prove to him that he's wrong, he'll never cop to it. And that gets to be pretty tiresome. Like, he's gotta know that he's an un-American sociopath for supporting and defending Trump all the time like he does. But it's as if he likes being wrong ll the time. And the more wrong he is, the more he will attack you when you prove to him that you're right. Again, extremely tiresome. I mean, you can only take someone calling you a "Neo-Nazi" for absolutely no good reason whatsoever for so long. Even though it stands to prove to you how right you were and how wrong he was.


    So we take breaks too a lot. Conversing with you and Curt, and even sometimes Indy!, is the only thing that brings us back in here. And we have come to the same conclusion that you have and will give Hate and olde dude's posts the attention that they actually deserve from here on. It's just not worth it to waste thought and effort on them when all they do is deny and guffaw at reality. Not worth it at all. We've got better things to do with our limited energies.

    From here on, I'm going to adopt this Zen saying as my mantra any time that I find myself about to respond to either of them...


    "Nothing is gained by bettering an idiot."




  36. by HatetheSwamp on December 12, 2023 1:34 pm

    I mean, you can only take someone calling you a "Neo-Nazi" for absolutely no good reason whatsoever for so long.

    It's Neo Neo-Nazi. And, you've earned it. Sell and truly.


  37. by oldedude on December 12, 2023 1:36 pm
    Now I will simply ignore them and ignore their hate filled lies and nonsense. They do not and probably cannot argue in good faith and my time is much too valuable to me to waste any of it on them.
    I find it funny that I can cite everything I said. You cite muffy. And I'm the one that has "hate filled lies and nonsense?" I won't go on too much more, but if you spread out a little and found more than one resource, you'd see the world is far different than what you perceive. And you're missing the things your media won't talk about because it embarrasses them. You need to read people that you don't agree with in order to find out there are many sides to something you thought was a "fixed" issue.


  38. by islander on December 12, 2023 4:47 pm

    "Nothing is gained by bettering an idiot." ~ Ponderer

    I like that mantra 👍 I have pretty much come to an assessment of od and hate similar to your and Donna's. I honestly think they, od and Hate, have issues that go far beyond anything I could even speculate about.

    I used to think od must be a lot older than me and thought he might be suffering some sort cognitive decline. Most of his posts seem to me to be made up of moments of what seem to be reasonable lucidity but he doesn't seem able to hold onto them. They quickly devolve into into incomplete random thoughts and he ends up spouting absurd ad hominems and attacking straw men that he has created in his own mind. And Hate? He seems to be a hate filled individual with an arrested emotional IQ like that of a child, but who knows?

    At any rate, it's relaxing to just be able to ignore them and simply post my own thoughts and opinions on today's topics without having to imagine that I have to respond to their nonsensical and sometimes very ugly posts.


  39. by oldedude on December 12, 2023 5:46 pm
    Isle- Think about this. Every time we post. Even if I find a way to agree with po, the answer always includes several F bombs and at least one rant including "irrational, pig-ignorant, sociopathic inhumanity and [sic]and arrogant idiocy."

    If I have attacked you like that, especially in the past few months. I apologize. Usually on my end, it's sorting out facts from many sources against mopsy. I can generally do that not using irrational, pig-ignorant, sociopathic inhumanity and arrogant idiocy. I honestly think if you would get away from her as your God, it would help.


  40. by oldedude on December 12, 2023 8:49 pm
    Donna- I've said this before, and will say it again. Your biggest thorn is your wife. I have actually agreed with her, and said so. What I get back is "abject disgust at the irrational, pig-ignorant, sociopathic inhumanity and [sic]and arrogant idiocy that spews from those two and declared "THAT'S IT! I'm DONE with that place and those babbling clowns!"."

    You always dismiss that in our conversation. If I happen to disagree with her (and cite it, which she rarely does), I get "abject disgust at the irrational, pig-ignorant, sociopathic inhumanity and arrogant idiocy that spews from those two and declared "THAT'S IT! I'm DONE with that place and those babbling clowns!"." with a few, well, maybe several F***bombs thrown in. So why should I be even somewhat civil? If you can explain this to me, I'm ready to listen, because on the abuse scale your wife is the worse. With a close second from indy, whose sophomoric "humor" isn't humor. It's just sophomoric.


  41. by Curt_Anderson on December 12, 2023 9:10 pm
    When I envisioned and had this section of SelectSmart.com created, I imagined it more like newspaper (hence the name "Post") where people would write op-eds or repost articles (linking to the source) on current events and anything else which is why there are about 50 categories to select from. I did assume the politics would be the most popular category. I expected the comments to brief responses mainly "likes" or "dislikes", but not lengthy arguments (of which I am also guilty).



  42. by islander on December 13, 2023 7:52 am

    Curt, I was hoping this could be more like a discussion board where we could discuss topics with one another in good faith, and this would mean that at times it might be necessary to post longer posts in order to do justice to the subject being debated.

    Sadly, at least in my opinion, more and more people just can't be bothered reading a long post, preferring instead to read just a few quick lines or posting memes. It's something like eating fast food rather than eating at a good restaurant. We have plenty of fast food type sites like the former Twitter etc.

    Naturally, fast food posts wouldn't and shouldn't be discouraged and more often than not a short post is all that's needed to get a point across.


  43. by Ponderer on December 13, 2023 8:36 am

    olde dude: I was very specific about what I object to in post #34, and it has nothing to do with what you said in your response in post #40.


  44. by Donna on December 13, 2023 8:38 am

    Mine ^


  45. by Indy! on December 13, 2023 9:59 am

    The "sometimes" that Indy is worth talking to are the rare times you folks detour away from the party tlking points. I'm not interested in either party's bullshit. They are both corrupt and have absolutely no interest in helping the country unless it helps them and their friends first. I don't care what Fox or MSNBC says either because they are simply mouthpieces of the party. I'm hoping one day all of you - even OD and peebs figure that out and start thinking for yourselves again. Really.


  46. by HatetheSwamp on December 13, 2023 10:21 am

    Indy,

    pb has figured that out... exactly! When he views MSNBC or Fox it's merely to pick up the day's propaganda line and, from what pb can tell, the shamelessness of the preaching is getting worse... nearly by the day.


  47. by HatetheSwamp on December 13, 2023 10:28 am

    From #34:

    "I decided to take a break a few days ago after I was labeled a Hamas loving neo-Nazi."

    To be clear, pb has not called you a Hamas loving Neo-Nazi.

    He thinks that it's beyond obvious that you are a JewHater, and, pb makes the distinction that you are not a traditional Neo-Nazi, but a progressive elitist "Neo Neo-Nazi."

    You continue to prove that every day you participate here. IMO.


  48. by oldedude on December 13, 2023 12:15 pm
    olde dude: I was very specific about what I object to in post #34, and it has nothing to do with what you said in your response in post #40.

    That makes sense, because I was talking to Donna, and actually addressed her at the beginning of the post.


  49. by Donna on December 13, 2023 1:30 pm

    What I was reacting to was this:

    Right? Especially taking into account that American neo-Nazis are aligned with the Republican Party, not the Democratic Party. [- Donna]

    They're actually not. They're much more right wing than that. And you really need to chill your jets on this one. You agree with radical Islamic view they are the victims. You're nothing more than a useful idiot to them. And you have fallen for it hook, line, and sinker. You have been since the beginning. You and your wife (and isle) have to be shamed into talking about the systematic rapes and beheading of infants by Hamas. And yet you rarely mention the Jews. Y'all (minus curt) only see Israel with disdain.

    You only mention the poor, "innocent" Hamas supporters. I've talked about this at nauseum. And it sickens me to see you support such assholes. Both here and abroad. You're goose-stepping right into their purpose. Which is hilarious because they hate you more than the Jews. You (and your wife) are an abomination to their God. You can't even convert and die quickly. You're making it possible for them to increase their presence and Sharia in the US (they already have footholds).

    You're no better than the presidents of those three colleges.

    ***

    THAT ^ sickens me.



    selectsmart.com


  50. by oldedude on December 13, 2023 5:33 pm
    What I described, was the asymmetrical warfare use of the media. Wha and how I described it is pretty textbook. You don't have to believe they're right. You only have to be the enemy of their enemy. They make the assumption in their media blitzkrieg that "X" number of people "Hate Israel" (which is not what you said, but that's how they spin it and is is more along the lines of indy). If you are quiet on Israel, and vocal on the Palestinians, that's a recruiting tool for them internationally. That's how they get people to join. This is just how the system works. Their "news" is full of video of people marching for Palestine, getting arrested by western police, and they pick up other video of "demonstrators" bleeding, etc.

    I've actually put this out there several times because I don't think that you (donna) think this. That said. This is how your silence is used.


  51. by Donna on December 14, 2023 8:23 am

    I'm sick and tired of hearing that.

    The thing is that after the Oct 7th massacre of innocent Israelis, I roundly condemned Hamas for their unconscionable slaughter of children, women and men. If you didn't see those condemnations I posted, I can't help that.

    I'm outraged by the state-sponsored slaughter of civilians on both sides. Unlike you, I don't make a distinction other than Netanyahu's response to the slaughter Hamas carried out over two months ago has been grossly asymmetrical and has resulted in a humanitarian disaster, which you've been silent on.


  52. by HatetheSwamp on December 14, 2023 8:39 am

    The thing is that after the Oct 7th massacre of innocent Israelis, I roundly condemned Hamas for their unconscionable slaughter of children, women and men.


    Bullfernerner!

    You condemned Israel for shutting off the fresh water supply...and, po chimed in that that's a War Crime.

    I'm outraged by the state-sponsored slaughter of civilians on both sides.

    Your Both-sides-ism is despicable and antisemitic. If I didn't constantly praise Curt for the unfettered freedom he grants us here, I'd call for your posting privileges on SS to be suspended.

    You are bigoted and hateful.


  53. by oldedude on December 14, 2023 8:58 am
    Unlike you, I don't make a distinction other than Netanyahu's response to the slaughter Hamas carried out over two months ago has been grossly asymmetrical and has resulted in a humanitarian disaster, which you've been silent on.

    I haven't been silent on it. I just haven't said the lie you want me to.

    Yet again, I am amazed the IDF hasn't done the same things in Gaza that was done to their families. Had it been 99% of other countries doing this, you would have seen that all of a sudden Muslim families would have been murdered in their homes, decapitated raped, infants beaten to death. Every one of the IDF had families, friends, and loved ones murdered on 10/7. As they were being cheered on by the families, friends and loved ones of the assholes murdering innocent civilians (which Hamas doesn't believe exist by the way. ALL JEWS MUST BE EXTERMINATED. They've said that before, they've said it after.

    I have also provided you with facts. Hamas stealing food and medical supplies from the Gazarians. The IDF getting the elderly to the exfil areas so they can get out of the war, while Hamas keeps people there to use as human shields. You have never said anything about these efforts.

    I know you "believe" that any death is a crime. Well, welcome to the real fucking world. After shaming, you reluctantly gave a curtesy acknowledgement to those murdered to start this war. Then you immediately went back to whining about the IDF. I've given far more factual information about IDF helping the Gazarians get out of harms way, while Hamas uses them for shields, than you have about the IDF being murderers.

    I know you don't have a concept of what happened. You only look at your media and listen to them. The Israelis could have taken an eye for an eye, which is a standard in both religions. They haven't. They want to kill HAMAS. And they're doing that, although much slower than what they should have.

    Much of Hamas is already in the winds. In Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Iran, or the US, GB, France, Italy, Mexico, Canada. They're going to fight again. They're going to do the same things again. Their target is ALL JEWS globally. They've already had issues in France, GB, and the US (that have been reported. Israel has also had sleeper singles murdering Jews. But you never talk about that.

    I've really tried to talk this out rationally. And it's all for naught.


  54. by islander on December 14, 2023 9:07 am

    Donna, Why are you wasting your time with these two ? You are just giving them the chance to smear you with their lies.

    I remember perfectly well your posts in which you did indeed roundly condemning Hamas for their unconscionable slaughter of children, women and men. 

Only a fool who doesn’t know you would believe anything those two said about you.



  55. by HatetheSwamp on December 14, 2023 9:50 am

    isle,

    I'd be happy if you can link to that. OD has pointed out several times that Donna only acknowledges the Hamas evil when shamed to.


  56. by oldedude on December 14, 2023 2:34 pm
    Lead- which part?

    isle- a fully acknowledged she did "condemn" Hamas after a few days. Had she and I talked about it, that would have been a lot worse. I also acknowledge she believes that any death of a civilian (On both sides and I honestly believes she does feel that Hamas is guilty of "murder" the same as the IDF is.
    My core belief is;
    1. Hamas and the people of the area have been planning this (Hamas) for 20 years, and the people for about 16-18 years. The proof behind this like I've said three times before, are the rates of birth, marriage, and general safety inside the camps. About 18 years ago, the camps did a turnaround. The rapes were abnormally low for a camp of this sort. There were very few out of wedlock births, also strange. And High rate of marriages.

    This is really, really odd for a refugee camp anywhere else in the world. In haiti, there's a sex slavery trade going on, and done by haitians. The systematic rapes are on an unbelievable rate.

    So my point is that someone or something changed the way their system was handled. Understanding that Hamas has had complete control of the entire educational system (via the UN), that's a pretty large change. So either everyone got religion. OR the males were told that if they did rape a Muslim woman, their body would never be found, and they'd die horribly. I suspect there were arranged marriages and Dowery's were paid by Hamas. That would entice families to dump their daughters and get some decent money for the family. Those new parents may also be getting paid for having children in accordance with Qur'anic law.

    2. With the exception of the elderly, the great number of military-aged males and their families are pro-Hamas. In their hearts? dunno. outwardly? absolutely. When the murderers call their mothers and brag about the infants they murdered and there is cheering on the other end of the phone, that's what we call a clue.

    3. I am also saying that as much as you use disinformation and bending the truth, they do it far more. They have professionals from Iran that are paid to do this.

    Lead- I looked up what I referenced. Here are some cites. I may or may not have covered it all, let me know.

    #3 is especially interesting. In Syria, thousands were murdered (by the instructors of the murderers on 10/7) as they "thought they were surrendering to Syrian forces. This is after being gassed, blown up, shot, etcetcetc in syrian cities for months by the Russians with the full approval of al-Assad. In Palestine? ZERO. They were allowed to pass and given shelter, treated, etc. That said, The Geneva Convention protects civilians (to a degree). Civilians that are surrendering are a protected class unless someone has a bomb strapped to them (which didn't happen here). Halal and Kosher are similar enough that it's allowed to eat the other style if you don't have yours. (Sorry, tangent, but you may have needed the background)
    aljazeera.com
    jpost.com
    theguardian.com
    View Video


  57. by islander on December 15, 2023 5:25 am

    In her book,”How The South Won The Civil War”, historian professor Cox, with her knowledge and expertise, does an excellent job of explaining the American paradox . This paradox is something that was not stressed (or even mentioned) in history classes when I was in high school and I dare that many Americans today don’t truly understand it’s significance and the major role it played in the history of our country and the events we see happening today.

    In his essay, Slavery and Freedom: The American Paradox, Edmund S. Morgan writes;

    “AMERICAN historians interested in tracing the rise of liberty, democracy, and the common man have been challenged in the past two decades by other historians, interested in tracing the history of oppression, exploitation, and racism. The challenge has been salutary, because it has made us examine more directly than historians have hitherto been willing to do, the role of slavery in our early history Colonial historians, in particular, when writing about the origin and development of American institutions have found it possible until recently to deal with slavery as an exception to everything they had to say. I am speaking about myself but also about most of my generation. We owe a debt of gratitude to those who have insisted that slavery was something more than an exception, that one fifth of the American population at the time of the Revolution is too many people to be treated as an exception.”


  58. by HatetheSwamp on December 15, 2023 5:47 am

    Two absolute and objective truths, isle:

    1. Morgan is a historian of genuine import who turns your Heather into a total dweeb.

    2. He, of course, is bang on. Heather's problem is that she, with no evidence at all, identifies the good that opposes the evil Morgan and she describe, with your woke, white progressive cult.

    Good for Morgan. Bad on you.


  59. by islander on December 15, 2023 11:51 am

    According to Professor Richardson, the unending struggle between American democracy and oligarchy began with the birth of the nation. Many historians of early America have argued that the ideology of the American Revolution was democratic republicanism, born during the English Civil War in the 17th century and then embraced by the colonies. As the quintessential radical of the Age of Revolution, Thomas Paine, proclaimed, “The cause of America is in great measure the cause of all mankind.” But not all historians agree that this republicanism was the sole ideology then in circulation in North America. As Edmund Morgan observes in American Slavery, American Freedom, the seeming paradox of American republicanism was the simultaneous emergence of slavery and freedom in the colonial world. From the outset, the American idea of freedom was exclusive: It was for property-owning men only and was based on the enslavement of people of African descent. The Virginian founding fathers solved the problem of inequality by simply enslaving a racially outcast working poor and at the same time elevating the status of all white men, slaveholders and nonslaveholders alike.


  60. by HatetheSwamp on December 15, 2023 12:31 pm

    isle,

    One of the great errors historians make is either to interpret all of America history of that era as if Virginia represents us all. Or, that Massachusetts does.

    Neither is correct.

    I'm born and raised in Pennsylvania. Your Virginia malarkey is just that.


    If you want to engage in a discussion of the import of these events on us today, I'm your man.

    But, understand. I think I can make a decent case that MAGA...not Trump...as po'd say, EFFIN-MAGA, is the inheritor of the early American Republican spirit.

    So, if you ain't afraid...


  61. by Donna on December 15, 2023 2:43 pm

    You're right, islander. And thank you for your support. No amount of condemnation I lodge at Hamas will ever be enough for some people.

    And I will never apologize for what I've written. Actually I revel>/i> in being hated for being compassionate and empathetic.




  62. by HatetheSwamp on December 15, 2023 3:15 pm

    Donna,

    No one here has ever suggested that you are Pro-Hamas. That's not the issue. But, you've never been more clever in your Mr. Bojangles routine. You're out tapping isle hisself.


  63. by oldedude on December 15, 2023 8:47 pm
    Lead. That's "hissownself"


  64. by islander on December 16, 2023 4:58 am

    You're quite welcome Donna. 👍

    The beauty of simply telling the truth instead of posting lies, insults, ad hominems, and hijacking threads, gives one a sense of well being that the trolls probably can't even begin to fathom or experience. 🍻


  65. by HatetheSwamp on December 16, 2023 6:06 am

    Lead. That's "hissownself"

    Mea culpa


  66. by HatetheSwamp on December 16, 2023 6:08 am

    You're quite welcome Donna. 👍

    The beauty of simply telling the truth instead of posting lies, insults, ad hominems, and hijacking threads, gives one a sense of well being that the trolls probably can't even begin to fathom or experience. 🍻


    Bahahahahahahahahahaha ha ha baha baha bahahahahahahahahahaha keehee hoohoo heeheeheeheeheeheehee hahahahahahaha bahahahahahahahahahaha baha baha ha, ahhhhhhhhhhh!


  67. by oldedude on December 16, 2023 6:53 am
    Donna, You have sincerity about what you say and do. Thusly, I do believe what you say. I've said this several times. You can take that for what you want or don't. There's a very strong line between yourself and indy/po. There is no sincerity in them saying they don't approve of what Hamas did/does. You have proven yourself to be extremely honest and believable. Again. I've said this several times. I'm hoping you can see it.

    And isle. Whatever muffy says is absolute truth to him. He can't imagine his life without them. So there's that.


  68. by Donna on December 16, 2023 9:07 am

    Thank you, od, but Ponderer and I are in 100% agreement on Israel/Palestine. We have a lot of discussions about everything under the sun and often beyond the sun.


  69. by oldedude on December 16, 2023 6:21 pm
    Then everything I said to po, I said to you. Period. My stance doesn't change. I know your assholes. They don't deserve to live under any sun at all. And those that protect them, are equals. I guess YOU decided your response, much to my dismay.


  70. by oldedude on December 17, 2023 6:31 am
    donna- I think it's the way you choose to interact. You can actually have a discussion. You have that capability. po does not. That Tourette's thing is as annoying as trying to get an actual answer out of indy without him trying to be "cute" (in that three year old kind of way). You explained your points very well and I understand them. I don't agree with them all the time, and I try to keep that in mind when I discuss with you. And I do slip. I apologize for that.


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