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Politics selectors, pages, etc.
Examples of how different the Democrats are from the Republicans
By Ponderer
September 21, 2023 1:46 pm
Category: Politics

(0.0 from 0 votes)
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Let's see how many differences people can come up with.

CAUTION TO REPUBLICANS/CONSERVATIVES: This exercise may require a good sense of what an equitable comparison is. So don't feel like you have to play if you know it will embarrass you.


I'll start. This is a good one:

DEMOCRATS: Al Frankin has a goofy photo taken many years earlier pretending like he is going to grab a sleeping woman's breast... and the Democratic party forces him to retire.

REPUBLICANS: Lauren Boebert and her husband "date" are caught on closed circuit surveillance video in a packed public theater with children present with her giving him a double-fisted hand job while he gropes thelivingfuck out of her breasts... and the GOP doesn't even raise an eyebrow.


(It was apparently their first date!)


CONCLUSION: A huge difference between the two parties is that Democrats have morals and the Republicans utterly lack any.


Cited and related links:

  1. tmz.com

Comments Start Below


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Comments on "Examples of how different the Democrats are from the Republicans":

  1. by Ponderer on September 21, 2023 1:59 pm

    "At least I did it in the right kind of theater..."


  2. by HatetheSwamp on September 21, 2023 2:03 pm

    Three words, po: Bubba Clinton

    Nation Torn Between Party That Openly Supports Perversion And Party That Only Secretly Supports Perversion


    Baha ba
    babylonbee.com


  3. by oldedude on September 21, 2023 2:45 pm
    Or Edward (Teddy) Kennedy.


  4. by Indy! on September 21, 2023 6:14 pm

    Wide stance guy.


  5. by Ponderer on September 22, 2023 8:25 am

    • Democrats have instigated and put forth bills and programs designed specifically to help the poor and middle class in this country.

    • Republicans have never authored a single bill designed to help the poor and middle class specifically. It would be against their religion.


  6. by Indy! on September 22, 2023 8:33 am

    Name a bill the Ds have actually passed that helped the poor and middle class specifically in the past 50 years. Not one that gives a few crumbs to the poors while giving billions to the wealthy - one created specifically to help the poor and middle class - and nobody else.

    Curt - FDR was not president in the last 50 years. 😌


  7. by Ponderer on September 22, 2023 9:47 am

    "Name a bill the Ds have actually passed that helped the poor and middle class specifically in the past 50 years. Not one that gives a few crumbs to the poors while giving billions to the wealthy - one created specifically to help the poor and middle class - and nobody else." -Indy!


    You're not going to like it, but the Affordable Care Act for one. It helped millions of American poor and middle class individuals and families finally get health care insurance that they could afford in a time when all they would have had to look forward to was it getting further and further from being affordable to them at all. Go on and on about how the insurance companies and the medical and pharmaceutical made out from it all you want. But it was not the primary intention or purpose of the bill. Poor and middle class people needed help and that bill got it to them. No thanks to the bulk of the GOP.


  8. by Ponderer on September 22, 2023 9:48 am
    Okay. You're turn:

    Name a bill the Rs have actually passed that helped the poor and middle class specifically in the past 50 years. Not one that gives a few crumbs to the poors while giving billions to the wealthy - one created specifically to help the poor and middle class - and nobody else.



  9. by HatetheSwamp on September 22, 2023 10:03 am

    No, po. I don't beat my wife. Never did.


  10. by Indy! on September 22, 2023 10:20 am

    A. The ACA - no matter how much you like it - doesn't fit the bill. The rules clearly state:

    "...Not one that gives a few crumbs to the poors while giving billions to the wealthy - one created specifically to help the poor and middle class - and nobody else."

    The big winner for that bill (as Indy predicted when it was passed) was the insurance companies. They kept the SAME system in place by only giving up a couple minor crumbs... no pre-existing conditions and certain limits on yearly costs. Meanwhile costs have continued to grow at the same exponential rate and the - the big payoff - government (read: taxpayers) pick up the bill for the cost overruns associated with the crumbs the insurance companies were granted in the bill.


    B. I have not defended the Rs or claimed they are better at helping the poors so there is no reason for me to pretend (like you) that there are only two ways in this whole wide, varied, multi-faceted, multi-colored, multi-party world to govern. 🙂


  11. by Ponderer on September 22, 2023 11:53 am

    Indy!, millions of poor and middle class people going from having no way to afford health insurance to being able to afford health insurance should in no sane and conceivable way ever be considered "crumbs". It helped me get it when I'd had to go without it for almost a couple years until Obamacare came along.

    And as I just said, "Go on and on about how the insurance companies and the medical and pharmaceutical made out from it all you want. But it was not the primary intention or purpose of the bill. Poor and middle class people needed help and that bill got it to them".

    (You probably just didn't read that far down in my response to you).


    You asked for an example and I gave you a very good one. But I admit that asking you to present an example of the same thing coming from the R's was a trick question. It's never happened. As I mentioned already, it's against their religion.


  12. by Indy! on September 22, 2023 2:01 pm

    Your example does not fit the question and if the Ds were as worried about the poors as you seem to believe - you could very easily come up with another example - one that actually DOES fit the criteria.

    And so far as the intentions behind the ACA? It was created in order to help corporate America - not the poor and middle class. It was a way for the healthcare and insurance industries and Wall Street to kick the M4A can down the road another 20 years. If it were for the poors it would not have ever passed. I'm glad you got something from it (I do too now that I'm not making much money) - but that doesn't change the big picture. The U.S. healthcare industry has changed very little since the ACA - the only real difference is gov't (read: taxpayers) have taken on the burden of pre-existing conditions and SOME of the people who couldn't afford insurance. So who's getting the benefit of the bill? The insurance industry. And worse - it still doesn't cover everyone.


  13. by Ponderer on September 23, 2023 8:16 am

    Indy!, What part of People who were unable to afford any health care insurance at all are now able to get it thanks to the ACA are you finding it difficult to comprehend? Why is it that you seem unable to understand what a godsend that act was to millions of people? Myself included. Why can you simply blow that all off as if it doesn't matter a damn? I'm beginning to suspect that you have the same total and complete lack of empathy that the Republicans have.

    Of course the ACA was far from perfect. But it was as much as any president and their party were going to be able to accomplish at that time, given the natural proclivities of the Republican party to throw their bodies on the tracks to stop any progress at all on health care. The thing only passed by one vote as I recall. And that one vote was from one of the only rare Republicans who actually had a fair amount of basic human empathy.

    So it was as much as was possible to do, but maybe they should have tried for full blown socialized health care instead I suppose? Yeah they woulda had a breezy time with that. So if the ACA was all they could have possibly accomplished, they shouldn't have even bothered doing anything until we can get 100% of everything we want on the subject right out of the gate??? And let those who couldn't afford any health care at all could just keep pounding sand?

    You people who expect the government to be absolutely perfect in giving you everything you want will never be satisfied with anything. I already knew exactly what you were going to say. You are almost genetically tuned to blow off and criticize every last positive thing that the Democrats have ever accomplished, and then nonsensically assert that they are exactly the same as Republicans. The Republicans... who never even TRY to do anything for the American poor and middle class. In fact, it's their religion to stop and thwart anything good for the American people that the Democrats ever attempt to do for them. But yeah, same thing. No difference. 🙄



  14. by Ponderer on September 23, 2023 8:26 am

    Another example of the vast difference between Democrats and Republicans:

    • Democrats do not abide criminal behavior from members in their ranks. When criminality is found, they are castigated for it and even ousted from the party.

    • Republicans will accept, condone, and defend any criminal activity whatsoever from their sitting members. They are so terrified of losing any power they have that they will even defend a Republican president who actually attempted a violent coup against our country, who gives aid and support to our enemies, and is currently facing 91 felony charges so far... just because (now get this) they are afraid that he is their only way to the presidency again!




  15. by Indy! on September 23, 2023 10:02 am

    Pondy: "So it was as much as was possible to do, but maybe they should have tried for full blown socialized health care instead I suppose?"


    Yes, they should have tried for full blown socialized health care instead. Instead of not allowing Congress to even discuss it. You know - that eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeevil socialized healthcare like every civilized nation on the planet has had for decades. The Ds didn't need the R votes - they had super majorities in both sides of Congress, a D in the White House and a liberal Supreme Court. If the Ds could not pass ANYTHING except the GOP healthcare plan under those circumstances - then obviously there is absolutely no reason to ever vote for them for anything.

    You see how we keep getting back to that same point? The Ds are corrupt, admittedly don't care about your needs or vote (testified to it in court) and will not do anything for you when they have everything they need to make real change. They don't care about you or your health, Pondy - you getting healthcare was an unfortunate byproduct of them making sure Wall Street, the insurance industry and the health "care" providers continued to get fat and obscenely wealthy on the backs of the poors. The only reason you're getting that "help" is because the taxpayers are covering you - not them.


  16. by Donna on September 23, 2023 10:14 am

    Without the ACA subsidy we've been receiving ever since it was enacted (aka "crumbs",) we wouldn't have been able to afford healthcare all these years.

    Yes, the drug and insurance companies are continuing to make off like bandits, but the fact remains that government has limited control over what private companies can charge.

    To fix this problem, either Americans have to have more income or the industries involved have to charge less.

    The only solution I can think of would be to nationalize the entire healthcare system. But of course that will never happen in a Congress that's been co-opted by those same industries.

    It's just another American shitshow that won't get fixed in the lifetimes of any of us on this forum. Just hope and pray that if you aren't 65 yet, you'll make it to then when you'll be able to get Medicare or Medicare Advantage, which are very affordable.

    But to castigate Democrats of all people for this situation is absurd.







  17. by Ponderer on September 23, 2023 3:11 pm

    "Without the ACA subsidy we've been receiving ever since it was enacted (aka "crumbs",) we wouldn't have been able to afford healthcare all these years." -Donna

    It amounts to several thousand dollars every year, Indy!. Several thousand dollars a year that the ACA provides, just to have the meager plan we have. Several thousand dollars a year that we would otherwise have had to come up with our selves. Which wood'n a happened. Which we still now don't have to do thanks to the ACA.


    "Yes, they should have tried for full blown socialized health care instead. Instead of not allowing Congress to even discuss it." -Indy!

    Oh my yes!And what wondrous grand discussions they surely would have had! Why Donna and I would still be basking in the care-free life of going through the last eleven years or so without any health insurance at all, had those most historical discussions only taken place! Books would have been written about them! Ballads sung to the all powerful universal health giving attributes of those monumental discussions on socialized health care in America!!





    Discussions which would have done quite literally nothing. Apart from scaring away enough fence sitting GOPs who were going to vote for the eventual bill. We would have ended up with nothing.

    Oh but those discussions! Would that they had been able to have those miracle-gushing discussions about socialized medicine!

    .


  18. by Indy! on September 23, 2023 7:49 pm

    You guys keep coming back to that same point - YOU made out. Yes, and I (currently) am too. As happy and carefree as you are - it didn't solve the problem. Nowhere near it. I'm glad YOU made out well and I'm glad I am (temporarily) making out well. However the includes far more people than the 3 of us.


  19. by Ponderer on September 24, 2023 12:25 am

    "You guys keep coming back to that same point - YOU made out." _indy!

    As I also mentioned that it helped tens of millions of other Americans the same way it helped Donna and I. Not that that amount of Americans is worth bothering over to you.

    But you're probably right. That you, Donna, and I are most likely the only Americans who actually benefited from it.


    🙄


  20. by HatetheSwamp on September 24, 2023 4:03 am

    The Very first thing that Indy and I agreed with is that, back then, health care reform was essential but the OCare was a bad law. It still is.


  21. by Ponderer on September 24, 2023 7:51 am

    "The Very first thing that Indy and I agreed with is that, back then, health care reform was essential but the OCare was a bad law. It still is." -Hate

    I've explained why it was a godsend to tens of millions of Americans. Now you tell me why it was a bad bill, Bill.

    Is it your contention that the tens of millions of Americans for whom it has been a godsend would be better off had it never been enacted?


  22. by oldedude on September 24, 2023 8:01 am
    They shouldn't have lied when they rammed it up the butts of congress. Or don't you remember "You have to pass the bill to read the bill."- little nancy. and then they said it wasn't a "tax" which they lied to us about until they went before the SCOTUS. When introducing their case, they referenced it (for the first time) as a "tax." So they lied to the American people about it, then lied through the courts until they were going to get caught publicly.


  23. by HatetheSwamp on September 24, 2023 8:02 am

    No doubt, po but another law could be doing you and all of us more good.

    It's a bad bill.

    Here's a life-clue, po. On those rare occasions when Indy and pb agree?, perk up.


  24. by Ponderer on September 24, 2023 8:10 am

    "No doubt, po but another law could be doing you and all of us more good." -Hate

    What law, Bill? The Republican Health Care Plan that the Republicans have been tirelessly trying to get through Congress ever since the ACA went into effect and haven't shut up about this whole time?

    What thefuck law are you talking about that would have gotten more GOP support and helped more people, Bill?


  25. by HatetheSwamp on September 24, 2023 8:24 am

    OCare ain't Healthcare reform. It's merely a health insurance law bulldozed on America by the ONE and congressional Dems.

    If you want a bigger part of the story, remind yourself of what happened in the 010 election.

    It was a historic rejection of the Dem party.
    en.m.wikipedia.org


  26. by Donna on September 24, 2023 9:12 am

    Yes, and I have criticized the ACA many times since it was enacted. But nonetheless, it has helped millions of Americans.

    Nationalizing America's healthcare is the only solution I see, but no Republican in Congress would ever vote for that and neither would quite a few Democrats. I have yet to hear a proposal for a solution from any of those lawmakers, though. They seem content with this crazy, costly, and inhumane non-system system we're stuck with that they themselves never have to deal with because as members of Congress they have first-class comprehensive healthcare insurance.


  27. by HatetheSwamp on September 24, 2023 10:25 am

    Donna,

    Starting in January 021, Dems control everything in DC. Don't blame the GOPs.


  28. by oldedude on September 24, 2023 10:34 am
    Donna, this is was the last straw for the GOP. They trusted little nancy and obomber. For the last time. The dims succeeded in putting it through quick, to the objections of the GOP. They wanted time to read it (first of all), and then to argue the points. The dims had the rules changed where they could call for vote within three calendar days. It ruined any sort of detente and decorum in congress.

    The Affordable Care Act (ACA) is about 2,700 pages long. However, when you add in the regulations related to this law, the number of pages becomes astronomical, with the stack of rules, regulations, and proposed regulations amounting to somewhere in the neighborhood of 20,000 pages. Even the condensed version of the law is about 1000 pages long.

    So the bill itself (2,700 pages). "Assuming" you could read a page in 1.8 minutes. It would take you 81 hours to finish it. That's where lil nancy told the house they "have to pass the bill to read the bill."

    So you got what obomber put out there. In it's original form. Remember "like your doctor, keep your doctor?" and the infamous "healthcare costs will go down?" Both lies. My health care doubled. Employees with state of CO's health care went up x6 in addition to the $2,000 deductible.

    After that, if you ever expect the GOP NOT to look at anything the dims put out, and to fight them tooth and nail from now on, good luck.


  29. by Donna on September 24, 2023 1:56 pm

    Oh come on, od. You know damned well that the Republican Party will never support the nationalization of healthcare under any circumstances. Many Dems wouldn't even support that. Without nationalizing healthcare, though, Americans will continue to pay thru the nose for healthcare. And the Republican Party will continue to not do a damned thing about it.






  30. by Curt_Anderson on September 24, 2023 2:10 pm
    The number of pages was just a GOP excuse. There were about 150+ GOP members of Congress. They all have staffers. Divide the volume into several pages per staffer... Presto! The entire bill is read in a few hours top.


  31. by HatetheSwamp on September 24, 2023 3:26 pm

    You know damned well that the Republican Party will never support the nationalization of healthcare under any circumstances.

    And, of course, Donna, the only possible way to reform health care in the US is do socialize medicine. It's this precise closed minded attitude...from both sides... that dooms the whole nation.


  32. by Donna on September 24, 2023 5:17 pm

    I said that nationalizing healthcare was the only solution I can think of. Got something better? How about your favorite politicians? What healthcare solutions do they have? Actually I'm only asking in jest because I know that you guys have nothing, else we would have heard something by now.


  33. by HatetheSwamp on September 24, 2023 5:22 pm

    There was talk, back in the day, of relaxing the stringent regulations on insurance companies so as to reduce the cost of insurance to make it more affordable.


  34. by Donna on September 24, 2023 5:35 pm

    Give me an example of what you're talking about, because offhand I don't understand how relaxing regulations would reduce insurance premiums.


  35. by Curt_Anderson on September 24, 2023 6:07 pm
    Donna,
    Ever since the advent of the FDA and their dang regulations, it's hard to find good old patent medicines like they used in the 19th century. We wouldn't need insurance companies. We could buy a bottle of an elixir cure from a guy in a wagon.



  36. by oldedude on September 24, 2023 7:42 pm
    Thanks to the VA, I was introduced to "Soldiers Disease" a few years ago. I found out that I was sensitive to narcotics. I wandered. In my mind, I was just checking things out. I never want to be on them again. I felt great, but I was dead. And looking at everything as if they were alive and I was not.

    I'm pretty sure that's what you were talking about, curt. Or were you talking about just letting unchecked drugs be used? I dunno.


  37. by Curt_Anderson on September 24, 2023 8:36 pm
    OD,
    I was not talking about "soldiers' disease", which I understand to mean injured soldiers addiction to pain killers.

    HtS seems to suggest that deregulating health insurance companies would somehow make healthcare widely available and affordable to all. I am unconvinced that without regulations, insurance companies left to their own devices would do the right thing and offer better, cheaper plans to Americans.


  38. by oldedude on September 24, 2023 9:33 pm
    I understood that. My point is that those are cheap drugs that can be used at a "doctor's" whim. With today's regulation. I do agree with regulation. it was just interesting that an 1870's "disease" be reintroduced in the next millinum. Mostly because it's cheap.


  39. by HatetheSwamp on September 25, 2023 3:33 am

    HtS seems to suggest that deregulating health insurance companies would somehow make healthcare widely available and affordable to all.

    pb was responding to Donna claiming that GOPs had no ideas to reform health insurance. I gave only one example...

    ...which I'm sure MSNBC never reported to y'all.



  40. by oldedude on September 25, 2023 5:57 am
    The most powerful organizations for high health care rates is the AMA and big pharma per se is up there too, but they are two pieces of the same issue. In order to get a doctor that is actually treating my issues and not treating the symptoms costs my wife and I about $300/month.*

    Like curt, the AMA and big pharma view this as his "snake oil" post. Since the AMA doesn't make money off of it, they tell the insurance companies not to cover it. And in their goose-stepping formation, they won't. And yet, big pharma is starting to use the same technology to push their drugs, but only their drugs.

    *A huge issue for me was the levels of heavy metals in my body after working around aircraft for 40 years. We are getting those out of my body, and I'm feeling much better. The VA won't even look for metals in your body, and yet it's a major piece of cancers, etc. So all the civilian and military that work about petroleum products and especially kerosine (jet fuel), it's horrible.

    Again, the VA will only treat the symptoms, and "only" AMA approved methods.


  41. by Ponderer on September 25, 2023 7:10 am

    "There was talk, back in the day, of relaxing the stringent regulations on insurance companies so as to reduce the cost of insurance to make it more affordable." -Hate









    Right. Those altruistic health insurance companies want desperately to lower the prices they charge Americans for their insurance.

    But that mean old grouchy government just won't let them!


  42. by HatetheSwamp on September 25, 2023 7:32 am

    po,

    There was a lot of talk that you and your Rachel Room, low-information people refused to consider. I mentioned one...that on the surface is absurd and,...

    ...I knew you woke, white electric limousine lovin progressive Swampcultists would go bonkers over.

    I'm right about the reality that, when Indy and pb agree, you need to pay attention.

    We could be doing soooooooo much better than your OCare.

    The truth is that you were offered table scraps and you took them.


  43. by Donna on September 25, 2023 8:12 am

    Well as I anticipated, you didn't give me an example of how deregulation could help lower healthcare premiums, Hts, and to my knowledge what you heard "some talk about" was never acted upon by your party, so we're back to what I've been saying all along - that while the ACA didn't go nearly far enough to reduce out-of-pocket healthcare costs for patients, it's the only major healthcare reform that we've been able to acheive since the Democratic Party advocated for and passed Medicare into law.



  44. by HatetheSwamp on September 25, 2023 8:42 am

    Donna,

    You are the quintessential low-information voter who only knows what you want to know...to your shame.

    Back in 010, the GOPs picked up 63 House seats and 7 in the Senate making these very arguments. It's nuthin new. You're implying that you're ingnernt that these arguments were made...and led to one of most outrageous landslides in an off year elections in history.

    And, Donna, SS conservative posters were all over this then.

    I'm sure you are ignernt.

    If you didn't care to have examples then, or take them seriously, when your Messiah's lopsided congressional majorities were at risk, I'm certain that you, sure as all h@ng, don't care now. But, if you do, do some googling. It's an easy thing.

    Back in 08 to 010 you chose low-information and Dem Swampcult propaganda. It's your schtick...almost as much as po's. Fine.

    I figured y'nes out a whiles back.


  45. by Donna on September 25, 2023 9:56 am

    The first midterm after a new party takes the White House is almost always won by the opposing party.

    Fact remains, your party has done exactly zero to help make healthcare more accessible or more affordable. In fact your party has made that more difficult.


  46. by HatetheSwamp on September 25, 2023 10:18 am

    Donna,

    Don't be po. A 63 seat swing in the House? And, 7 in the Senate? Happens every time. Right!!!!!?

    Re: "Fact remains, your party has done exactly zero to help make healthcare more accessible or more affordable. In fact your party has made that more difficult."

    Well now, you're, inadvertently, I'm sure, parroting ol pb. Do you want to reconsider, maybe?

    pb's been saying for years. He's said it often. GOPs don't govern well. In fact, when it was for certain that the GOPs took the House this time, ol pb went out of his way to say it up front. When they needed 15 votes to elect a Speaker, pb said, "Seeeeeeeeeeee!"

    What the GOPs did with their majority for The ONE's last six years, is to pass numerous bills canceling OCare, knowing that The ONE would veto them.

    And, in 017, when the GOP controlled everything?, they couldn't manage to address the ACA.

    And, many GOPs have left the party because the SwampGOPs are liars. The Dems are fascists. The GOPs lie. The Swamp sucks. HatetheSwamp.

    Nevertheless, back in 010, there were many alternatives to OCare as a health insurance bill. In fact, the Tea Party movement was bristling with them.


  47. by Donna on September 25, 2023 11:17 am

    The GOP got many Americans to fear the ACA by scaring them about non-existent "death panels". In fact my parents fell for that ruse. They didn't believe me when I explained to them that it was a lie.

    Today the ACA is supported by a clear majority of Americans because they eventually saw how it's actually been beneficial, not harmful to them.

    The GOP tried to do the same thing regarding Medicare. In fact Reagan made a record about the evils of Medicare and how it was going to turn the US into an evil socialist country.

    The GOP are masters at getting Americans to fight against economic policies that would actually be beneficial to them. And they do that because they're actually fighting for the economic interests of big business and the wealthy class as opposed to working class Americans.


  48. by HatetheSwamp on September 25, 2023 11:42 am

    The GOP got many Americans to fear the ACA by scaring them about non-existent "death panels". In fact my parents fell for that ruse. They didn't believe me when I explained to them that it was a lie.

    A Sarah Palin-ism. Two thoughts:

    1. To suggest that she spoke for the whole GOP is creating the world's largest strawman.

    2. You come from gullible parents.

    Having said that, one of our best friends is an ENT surgeon who retired early because she didn't enjoy practicing medicine after OCare became law.

    The fact remains that the populist, Tea Party movement took over the 010 election...much to the chagrin even of the DC SwampGOPs. The SwampGOPs aren't the great evil you imagine. The truth is that people's movements have been using the GOP as a vehicle because the Dems are too elitist and fascistic to give them an opening.


  49. by oldedude on September 25, 2023 11:44 am
    Again, as a working class stiff, my insurance doubled.


  50. by HatetheSwamp on September 25, 2023 11:50 am

    Bang on.

    There is that. That's one reason that the fact that OCare is a bad law...to people who aren't named po and Donna.

    But, then, that's your obligation to the pondies and Donnas of the world.

    If you suffer unnecessarily that's your own d@ng business.

    They are entitled, eh?


  51. by Donna on September 25, 2023 4:27 pm

    "...one of our best friends is an ENT surgeon who retired early because she didn't enjoy practicing medicine after OCare became law." - Hts

    Sounds flakey. What is there about the ACA that supposedly made her react that way?

    od: What healthcare insurance did you have that doubled because of the ACA?


  52. by Donna on September 25, 2023 4:55 pm

    Link below to an article explaining why some peoples' premiums increased after the ACA was implemented.

    I'm sorry that that happened to you, od. Overall,the ACA helped way more people than it hurt, though, which doesn't help you, but I thought I'd mention that.

    Across most of the rest of the developed world, out-of-pocket healthcare costs are a fraction of what they are in the US. Those governments generally achieve that through higher taxes than we pay here in the US. So that's another way of reducing out-of-pocket costs, but since raising taxes is so unpopular here, that'll probably never happen.

    So in the neverending American shitshow, we'll just continue to drive American families into debt, even to the point of bankruptcy for trying to save the lives of themselves or their children, and nothing will ever be done about it.




    investopedia.com


  53. by Curt_Anderson on September 25, 2023 5:20 pm
    “ Again, as a working class stiff, my insurance doubled. ”—OD

    I was under the impression that you had a long military career, then served in government and are currently retired. Between the VA, healthcare through your government work, and Medicare. I’m surprised that you’re paying much at all for health insurance.


  54. by Donna on September 25, 2023 6:03 pm

    I am too, Curt. I have a Medicare Advantage plan (Humana Gold Plus) that costs us the standard 148.50/mo which they take out of my Social Security. In addition to fully covering almost everything, including most of my Rx meds, I get a $2000 allowance per year for dental work, which I took advantage of this summer and had 2 partially broken molars crowned that I'd been putting off for years because of the expense. There were no out-of-pocket costs.

    IMO everyone deserves that kind of coverage.


  55. by Donna on September 25, 2023 6:05 pm

    It just occurred to me that maybe od's insurance doubled in cost before he turned 65.


  56. by oldedude on September 25, 2023 6:41 pm
    Yes, and so the entirety of the workers in CO.


  57. by Indy! on September 25, 2023 10:08 pm

    Pondy actually posted this? Or was it Donna?

    But you're probably right. That you, Donna, and I are most likely the only Americans who actually benefited from it.

    😂


  58. by HatetheSwamp on September 26, 2023 7:39 am

    Pondy actually posted this? Or was it Donna?

    But you're probably right. That you, Donna, and I are most likely the only Americans who actually benefited from it.

    😂


    What sets po and Donna apart from the rest of us who are currently active on SS is that all of the rest us pursue a political philosophy...even isle who's mostly about GOPs, and especially TRUMP, being contemptible. po and Donna are all about what's in their interest. This issue illustrates that. OCare is to their advantage...

    ...the rest of us be d@mned.


  59. by oldedude on September 26, 2023 7:49 am
    And Donna, It has stayed at the same rate since both of us are 65 and on Medicare. And actually went up 10% last year.


  60. by Donna on September 26, 2023 8:02 am

    Thankfully we have representatives in Congress who really care about this issue and are doing something to make healthcare in America more accessible and affordable. Just got this in my email this morning from Bernie Sanders.

    Our current health care system is broken. Despite spending almost twice as much per capita as any other country, an unsustainable $13,000 per year, 85 million Americans are either uninsured or underinsured; over 60,000 die each year because they can’t get to a doctor when they need to; we pay, by far, the highest prices in the world for prescription drugs; and our life expectancy, already far lower than other developed countries, is getting lower.

    As broken as our overall health care system is, the situation with regard to primary health care is even worse. All across this country millions of Americans do not have access to affordable, decent-quality primary care, dental care, mental health counseling, or low-cost prescription drugs. Even people with decent insurance often have to wait months for a medical appointment. In the richest country on earth, that is unacceptable.

    Furthermore, despite the enormous amount of money we spend on health care, we have a massive shortage of doctors, nurses, dentists, and mental health providers — shortages which are getting worse every year.

    That is why as Chairman of the Senate Health, Education, Labor and Pensions Committee (HELP), I fought to pass the Bipartisan Primary Care and Health Workforce Act. I partnered with Senator Roger Marshall (R-KS) on this legislation to improve the woefully inadequate primary care system in this country and expand the health care workforce. The bill passed the HELP Committee by a vote of 14-7 with strong bipartisan support, which is a major step forward. Now, it's up to the full Senate to take up this important bill.

    Let me be very clear: this legislation is more modest than I would have liked it to be. But if it is passed into law, it would go a long way toward making primary health care in America more affordable and more accessible. It would provide a medical home for millions of Americans who do not have one today by significantly increasing the number of doctors and nurses that we desperately need. It would save us substantial sums of money on our country's health care costs by focusing on disease prevention and giving patients a medical home rather than costly episodic emergency room care. And it would substantially increase funding for community health care centers, ensuring millions of Americans can access primary care, dental care, and mental health care.



  61. by Ponderer on September 26, 2023 8:09 am

    'Pondy actually posted this?" -Indy!

    Yeah. I was sarcastically paraphrasing what you said.


    And Bill, it was a joke that wasn't intended for you. As you are a conservative Republican with no sense of humor, I had a feeling that it would only confuse you since you wouldn't get it.

    It was a joke intended just for Indy! I'm sorry it caused you unintended bewilderment and caused you to start babbling blithering nonsense. My bad.



  62. by Ponderer on September 26, 2023 8:53 am

    'And, of course, Donna, the only possible way to reform health care in the US is do socialize medicine. It's this precise closed minded attitude...from both sides... that dooms the whole nation." -hate

    It's the best way. Certainly. It's certainly worked for every civilized country on the planet. And you and the GOP have no better ideas.

    We should become civilized too.

    And Bill, are you laboring under the misapprehension that "relaxing the stringent regulations on insurance companies so as to reduce the cost of insurance to make it more affordable" is a realistic alternative to socialized health care? Are you seriously out of your mind?


    Can anyone here think of an example, taken from anywhere in American history, where relaxing regulations on any industry actually resulted in lowering prices and broadening access for consumers? Donna and I can't think of any. Can anyone else...?


    I recognize that there are regulations that are overkill or overreach. I think California has got to be one of the worst for hyper-regulating. But that does not mean that all regulations are bad automatically and without question, which seems to be the established Republican dogma.

    I was following a project in L.A. of setting up these tiny houses on an unused lot to house homeless people. They were essentially nothing more than insulated Home Depot sheds. Because of all the regulations and building codes of the state, county, and city, the things were costing over seventy grand. It's no wonder that even "affordable housing" isn't very affordable. Logically, they would be cheaper without the added regulations. But that never seems to ever be the result.

    But lowered regulations resulting in cheaper health insurance? A windfall for that industry that they are just going to willfully hand back to consumers when it could be added to their Profits? That just ain't the Capitalistic Way.

    I posted about the $740-some that Donna and I recently received because the health insurance industry is now regulated and mandated to return to us what would have simply been extra profits for them.

    There is no reason whatsoever to believe that our insurance company would have simply sent us, and probably millions of others like us, a rebate like that if they weren't regulated to.


    So Bill, "relaxing the stringent regulations on insurance companies so as to reduce the cost of insurance to make it more affordable" is a nitwit idea. At least in this country. Got anything else?




  63. by oldedude on September 26, 2023 9:09 pm
    All of us are also paying for what a few want. The government forced a convent of nuns to support abortions and "family planning." They didn't (when they filed the lawsuit) have any option but to pay for them. Their argument (that won) was that it violated the First amendment. What that did for obombercare, was to set it back, because it was on the "assumption" those even against the bill would fall into line like you lemmings. Obomber lost that one. In addition, it will not pay for ED meds, even in the case of prostate cancer issues (even though it WILL pay several times for breast augmentation/ changes) post mastectomy. You were lied to about them supporting that for men. They will pay to get a vasectomy. These are the same "guidelines" the VA uses. So someone with Agent Orange poisoning, or were burning aircraft parts full of hydrazine, still will get these basic "care" issues, even though it was not their fault they were exposed.


  64. by HatetheSwamp on September 27, 2023 5:11 am

    And Bill, are you laboring under the misapprehension that "relaxing the stringent regulations on insurance companies so as to reduce the cost of insurance to make it more affordable" is a realistic alternative to socialized health care? Are you seriously out of your mind?

    Huh!!!!!?

    Donna suggested that the GOPs offered no ideas on how to reform healthcare nor health insurance and I offered only one example to prove that Donna has chosen to be a low-information voter. In fact, I pointed out that the whole Tea Party movement was spawned in rebellion against The ONE and his attempt to foist OCare on America.


  65. by oldedude on September 27, 2023 6:06 am
    I recognize that there are regulations that are overkill or overreach. I think California has got to be one of the worst for hyper-regulating. But that does not mean that all regulations are bad automatically and without question, which seems to be the established Republican dogma.

    You just argued with yourself. You're saying that yes, there are government over-reaches in regulation, and then argued that ANY changes are bad. Can't ride two horses with one ass.

    Why do states have to restate OSHA regulations in their own laws? That's stupid. For workplace safety, there is a set of decent (kinda) regulations that are time tested.

    I used the example of the cost in NYC of doing a "legal" lemonade stand. $3k+ six months (and they had to have an "office" for the state inspector to use as their own office. There was a resounding "that's stupid" by most everyone. That was my point.

    Just one (more) example of a bad regulation set right. EPA finally had to give up some of their power because the courts forced them to rewrite their definition of "running waterways." They were forced to redefine the waterways as "permanent or seasonal waterways." This finally eliminated the "right" of the EPA to regulate flooded areas on agricultural lands. It's a boom for the agriculture industry. They now don't have to worry about meeting some stupid government over-reach by some moron that wants to put them out of business.

    I also gave you examples of the health care industry "MUST" include in your/their policies. Why can't the policies NOT carry some of those? If I'm young, I may want contraception.

    At our ages, that's the last thing we're thinking about. AND we're thinking about all the health care we need, the younger person/ couple doesn't care about. Under Ocare, that can't happen. If "we" (meaning people our ages) want the better system for us, Donna could get a policy where she could get the LAL (Light Adjustable Lenses) maybe for much less. That would be a boom for everyone.

    It's the typical, "one size fits all" system built by bureaucrats.


  66. by Ponderer on September 27, 2023 6:18 am

    "Donna suggested that the GOPs offered no ideas on how to reform healthcare nor health insurance and I offered only one example to [...]" -Hate

    No you didn't. You gave an example of nothing. All you said was,

    "There was talk, back in the day, of relaxing the stringent regulations on insurance companies so as to reduce the cost of insurance to make it more affordable."

    So there was talk about something that wasn't even a plan? That's your example of Republican health care reform? Of something better than socialized health care?

    Not only is this a ludicrously asinine excuse for an example of a way of improving health care or healthcare insurance, you can't even explain what you think is supposed to be the logic of your assertion. You're spewing bullshit that you can't even explain yourself, Bill.

    This is why people get fed up trying to converse with you.


    So anyway, as we've said before and we now have firm confirmation from Hate himself, that the Republicans have nothing and have never presented anything that is better than the idea of socialized health care, nor have they even presented a single thing to improve health care and health care insurance that we now have.



    Essentially, for all their bitching and moaning and gnashing of teeth about it, the Republicans have never even come up with anything better than Obamacare.




    So at least we've established this fact. And thanks for the help, Bill!


  67. by Ponderer on September 27, 2023 7:16 am

    "You just argued with yourself. You're saying that yes, there are government over-reaches in regulation, and then argued that ANY changes are bad. Can't ride two horses with one ass." -olde dude

    No I didn't. I said, "I recognize that there are regulations that are overkill or overreach. I think California has got to be one of the worst for hyper-regulating. But that does not mean that all regulations are bad automatically and without question, which seems to be the established Republican dogma."

    I sincerely apologize for your reading comprehension disabilities.




  68. by Donna on September 27, 2023 8:11 am

    Right - that was the opposite of what Ponderer said.

    "I also gave you examples of the health care industry "MUST" include in your/their policies. Why can't the policies NOT carry some of those? If I'm young, I may want contraception." - od

    The insurance company is only going to cover medical procedures, meds or devices that you received as a patient, so what difference does it make if there's something in your policy that you'll never use?

    There are plenty of things my Humana Gold Plus Medicare Advantage plan covers that I'll never use. If they were removed from my plan, I'd still have to pay $148.50/mo, which is perfectly reasonable because the medical services I used would be the same either way.

    I think the authors of the ACA just wanted to ensure that no one was getting ripped off by an overpriced shitty plan like ones that were starting to pop up in the years before the ACA was established.



  69. by HatetheSwamp on September 27, 2023 8:33 am

    po,

    There are times when you are too deranged and irrational even for good ol pb. But, by all means, fly high in the core of your own subjectivity.


  70. by oldedude on September 27, 2023 1:18 pm
    The insurance company is only going to cover medical procedures, meds or devices that you received as a patient, so what difference does it make if there's something in your policy that you'll never use?

    You're not quite sure how insurance works, are you?
    If I get an insurance policy that "only" covers getting killed by a car on a Tuesday afternoon at 1:37, That rate is going to be pretty cheap. If I work on an offshore drilling platform as a diver, I am going to pay a lot more.

    Ergo... If I have a plan that only covers major medical for someone that is 20 years old in good health, doesn't drink or smoke. That is cheaper than one that covers me as a stunt driver. Everything that is in an insurance plan is figured on the cost of that treatment, and probability of having that happen to the person. By having everything in that plan, you're still paying for it. Especially if the gov'mnt says they HAVE TO INCLUDE IT. They can jack up prices for those things. That's why the year after o'care came into existence, the insurance companies never complained about the regulations. That's because all of a sudden, they could hide costs. The health providers could charge more, as well as big pharma. If they had to tithe their 5% back to people to make them happy, that is in the costs. They just overcharge and everyone's happy!


  71. by Ponderer on September 27, 2023 1:54 pm


    olde dude, you make an excellent case for this country to adopt Socialized Universal Health Care.

    All the complaints you have about our current system being operated by insurance companies would be utterly moot. Nonexistent. All mere nightmares of the past... with Socialized Universal Health Care!

    Everyone's covered for all their basic medical needs. Zero out of pocket. No complex and unfair insurance forms to fill out or to pay someone to fill out. No deductibles. No premiums. Zip code, schmip code. No employers being forced to offer it as a carrot on a stick.

    We'd be happy to have you join the fight, olde dude. Think it over.


  72. by oldedude on September 27, 2023 5:13 pm
    That is the LAST thing I would ever support. Remember, I'm under socialized health care and IT SUCKS! I have to get all the tests rerun with my doctors because I can't trust what the government doctors come up with.

    At best the "government" doctors are about a half step in front of a malpractice suit and absolutely don't give a shit about any patient they see. It takes months to see a doctor for a 10-minute visit. Once you get your 10 minutes, your shuffled off.

    I also have to travel 45 miles (one way) to see any of my doctors because that's the closest to me. So I'm not sure how you think this is any better than anything going on in the health care industry.


  73. by Indy! on September 27, 2023 5:21 pm

    Notice how Blue MAGA hasn't gone anywhere near the original question? The task was name something the Ds did for poor and average Americans that didn't include an even bigger payoff to the wealthy and/or corporate America. The ACA simply does not qualify - the people who made out the most was Big Insura, the healthcare industry and Wall Street. So debate those 10M people lucky enough to be covered out of the 40M who didn't have health insurance at the time (75% of whom probably still don't) until you're as blue in the face as you are at the polls and it still doesn't fit the test laid out before you.

    And I notice we haven't had any other options on the table either.


  74. by oldedude on September 27, 2023 5:26 pm
    I gave you some, but apparently your disdain for me kept you from agreeing.
    typical sheep.


  75. by HatetheSwamp on September 28, 2023 3:28 am

    Notice how Blue MAGA hasn't gone anywhere near the original question? The task was name something the Ds did for poor and average Americans that didn't include an even bigger payoff to the wealthy and/or corporate America. The ACA simply does not qualify - the people who made out the most was Big Insura, the healthcare industry and Wall Street.

    That's my point about, especially, po. po perceives that OCare benefited po and that's all that matters to po. It's all about po! It was a bad bill. It's been a bad law...

    ...and everyone with courage...and a BRAIN...knows it.


  76. by Donna on September 28, 2023 6:16 am

    Bottom line: Neither the Republican Party nor burn it all down lefties have come up with anything better than the corporate friendly and flawed ACA.

    I'd love for America to have a civilized healthcare system like they have in more advanced countries than the US, but the truth is that currently we don't have ths infrastructure to support such a system, beginning with our severe shortage of doctors and nurses. As it stands now, there would be extremely long wait times if everyone in America had access to and could afford healthcare, which IMO should be a human right.

    Healthcare in America is yet another American shitshow that won't likely be resolved any time in the foreseeable future because corporate America undermined our democracy and rendered it impotent a long time ago. So tens of thousands of Americans annually will continue to be bankrupted or die for the crime of being born while the rest go "Fck them - I got mine".

    Some day Americans will look back on how we treated our fellow human beings with the same disdain we look back on things like slavery and shake our heads in wonder about how we could have been so selfish and uncaring.









  77. by Ponderer on September 28, 2023 6:52 am

    "Name a bill the Ds have actually passed that helped the poor and middle class specifically in the past 50 years. Not one that gives a few crumbs to the poors while giving billions to the wealthy - one created specifically to help the poor and middle class - and nobody else." -Indy!

    Indy!, perhaps you could explain how such a thing is even conceivably possible. Seriously, I'd love to hear you try to construct a viable scenario where the government helps the people without also helping any industries that the help is related to. Because even if the government sent bundles of cash directly to every citizen, it would benefit stores, car dealers, and any other industry that the citizens would then spend that money on buying their products and services. I saw through your trick question and ignored it to give an answer that relates to reality.

    So you demand an example of any help the government gave to the people, but it must ignore any additional costs that will affect the related industries? No matter what it costs or how it might even damage those industries? Well there's even some bit of that in the ACA, as is evidenced by the $740 we received back, like many also got from the insurance company that was mandated by the ACA.

    But let's hear a hypothetical plan from you that the government could implement that would only help citizens while giving industries nothing.

    And please feel free to include any Republican plans that fit your hypothetical bill. As it were.



    "po perceives that OCare benefited po and that's all that matters to po. It's all about po!" -Hate

    I should be tremendously frustrated with you at this point, Bill. But I understand your handicap and am trying to be patient with you lately. I realize that TENS OF MILLIONS OF PEOPLE being helped is meaningless to you and is not enough of an amount of humanity to awaken even the tiniest shred of basic human empathy that might still survive somewhere deep down in your makeup. So I understand that there is little point in trying to arouse any in you. But the true fact is that TENS OF MILLIONS OF PEOPLE were helped by the ACA and you are simply incapable of understanding how helping them was worth it. This is your shortcoming and not that of the ACA.

    This is not about me. I have never suggested it was. It's about TENS OF MILLIONS OF PEOPLE.

    And yes, I am among the TENS OF MILLIONS OF PEOPLE that the ACA has helped tremendously when we couldn't get any health care coverage at all. But I would feel the same about the ACA even if it hadn't helped me because it helped TENS OF MILLIONS OF PEOPLE who were desperate with no end in sight. And to me, TENS OF MILLIONS OF PEOPLE being directly helped by a government program, and it even saving many lives of those people in the process, is in no way as inconsequential and meaningless to me as you perceive them to be.


    Again, it's an empathy thing and I realize you can't understand it. So don't be too hard on yourself that none of this makes any sense to you.



  78. by oldedude on September 28, 2023 9:14 am
    Indy- The task was name something the Ds did for poor and average Americans that didn't include an even bigger payoff to the wealthy and/or corporate America. The ACA simply does not qualify - the people who made out the most was Big Insura, the healthcare industry and Wall Street. So debate those 10M people lucky enough to be covered out of the 40M who didn't have health insurance at the time (75% of whom probably still don't) until you're as blue in the face as you are at the polls and it still doesn't fit the test laid out before you.

    I agree. 'nuff said.


  79. by Indy! on September 28, 2023 9:20 am

    Good lord, Pondy - it's HEARTBREAKING to see the way your ideology and politics have been completely broken in the wake of Hillary's easily predictable loss to Trump. At least Donna still genuflects to her former beliefs (while - true - also simultaneously undermining them by posting that load of crap from Bernie). Now to answer your question...

    How does government pass something that helps the poor and average Americans without also simultaneously gifting an even larger handout to the wealthy? Raise the income tax rate on the wealthy and use the money to pay for public services. Remove the cap on the Social Security payroll tax and give everyone an increase in their benefits. There are a multitude of ways it can be done if you simply open up the Blue MAGA box you are locked in right now and think outside of it.


  80. by Indy! on September 28, 2023 9:25 am

    OD - where are these things of which you speak?

    I admit I do not read everything that is posted on these boards because - quite frankly - a good portion of it is a waste of time simply regurgitating the same old imaginary debates, "impeachments", "trials" and other crap the government creates to divide the citizenry and waste your lives on meaningless crap instead of allowing you the free time necessary to PONDER why this country sucks so much worse than every other industrialized nation and how we might change it. I will gladly read whatever you have it you want to lead me to it.


  81. by Ponderer on September 28, 2023 11:24 am

    Indy!, those are great ideas. Granted. And some Democrats and Bernie have been working towards them for some time now, especially the removing the SS cap.

    But how do you expect to get something like raising taxes on the wealthy to pay for social programs past the GOP members of congress when such a thing is literally against their sacred religion? And you expect the rich to simply concede their loss and let it happen? You can't even get the GOP to be onboard with something as minimal as a half cent tax on stock trades. Something that they wouldn't even miss. Unfortunately, they are against even the most minimal of sins against their Capitalistic God. They are even currently ready to bankrupt the country because of things they can't even define for fucksake.


    The Democrats had a filibuster-proof majority for a few short months back in the 111th Congress in 2009. And much of that was during the summer recess. Before that, they didn't have a filibuster-proof majority since the 95th Congress in the 70's.

    I suppose that the Democrats could have entirely restructured things like health care and the border and immigration and housing and education and energy and crime and voters rights and taxes on only the rich and everything else you've ever wanted done during the Summer of '09... It was technically possible I suppose, but in no way realistically possible.

    No, a clear path to real progress towards the things that the people of this country truly need will in all likelihood be utterly impossible until Republicans are no longer the permanent hindrance to democracy and what's best for the people of this country by never being voted into any high office in the first place.

    (There. I can present true but impossible remedies too.)


    Why is it, I wonder, that the far right and the far left both always seem to demand things that are essentially impossible? And there's no working towards anything for them. They want it all now, and they expect it all now. "Just make it be now!". Working towards something does not count for a damn thing with them. Mere progress towards a monumentally difficult and complex goal is the exact same thing as shear and total failure to them. Half measures bringing some relief is meaningless and the same thing as nothing. Pragmatism is entirely lost on them.





  82. by oldedude on September 28, 2023 11:49 am
    indy-instead of allowing you the free time necessary to PONDER why this country sucks so much worse than every other industrialized nation and how we might change it.

    Your basic premise about me is extremely flawed. First, I don't think this country sucks. Secondly, I do think we can change things, but it doesn't include wholesale shitting on the constitution and rewriting it the way you envision your (meaning all y'alls) marxist utopia. I'm not a victim in my life. I don't believe that handing people things makes them stronger. And the "industrial nations" are not socialist. Their economies run on a welfare system. It's quite different. A socialist system is where the government owns the means of production (ala Nicaragua). They're still a capitalist system with a bunch of handouts. I believe that people that settle for free this or free that are either too lazy or too stupid to choose for themselves. That "one size fits all" attitude for Health Insurance for example.


  83. by Ponderer on September 28, 2023 2:13 pm

    "First, I don't think this country sucks." -olde dude

    I absolutely agree with you, od!

    "Secondly, I do think we can change things, but it doesn't include wholesale shitting on the constitution and rewriting it [...]" -old dude

    Alright! Whoa, we're two for two, od!

    "And the 'industrial nations' are not socialist. Their economies run on a welfare system. It's quite different. A socialist system is where the government owns the means of production (ala Nicaragua)" -olde dude

    Somebody pinch me! Exactly, od! Perhaps you can explain that to the blithering right wing idiots around the country who scream and wail about America supposedly becoming a "Socialist" or "Marxist" country simply by socializing health care.

    "I believe that people that settle for free this or free that are either [...]" -olde dude

    Okay. Well three for four ain't too bad I suppose.

    People aren't getting "Free this of free that" by using government programs that help the poor and middle class. Their taxes pay for it. As do everyone else's. So it's not free. Even to those who use it it isn't free.

    I gotta say that I am amazed at how alike our opinions appear to be lately!




  84. by Indy! on September 28, 2023 3:32 pm

    The only part of that OD diatribe that has anything at all to do with anything I've ever said on these boards is the part about our country sucking - which had a clear qualifier attached to it that neither of you bothered to acknowledge because it would have gotten in the way of all the words you were trying to put in my mouth.

    I am only going to address one of the idiotic and entirely dishonest things OD tried to push off as my thoughts, words or intentions (and Pondy mindlessly agreed with him - further damaging what tiny shred of political integrity she still barely maintained 🙄) ... the part about trying to change things "unconstitutionally". I have never once - anywhere or at anytime - said anything about changing things by skirting the Constitution. Even as the Republicans OD worships in his sleep took soft nasty stinky soft creamy green colored baby shit dumps on our Constitution every chance they got and we didn't hear a single peep outside of 100%-I'll-get-my-guns-out-and-shoot-anyone-who-disagrees-with-me support from Old Dude while they did it. So take that bullshit and shove it back up your wretched ass, Old Dud.


  85. by oldedude on September 28, 2023 3:39 pm
    "Secondly, I do think we can change things, but it doesn't include wholesale shitting on the constitution and rewriting it [...]" -old dude
    Alright! Whoa, we're two for two, od!

    I was speaking specifically about your inability to understand states rights that is built into our constitution. You (specifically, and y'all collectively) want the federal government to be your daddy. You want this from the government and that from the government.

    Somebody pinch me! Exactly, od! Perhaps you can explain that to the blithering right wing idiots around the country who scream and wail about America supposedly becoming a "Socialist" or "Marxist" country simply by socializing health care.
    That is EXACTLY what I was talking about. If it's up to anyone, it's up to the states to do that. Period. End of story. Actually with the setup now, it would turn us in to just another welfare country. AND by the laws of our constitution, it's federal government over-reach (says SCOTUS x2). Like I've said before, the ONLY way obomber"care" got through was they had lied their way through the federal appeals courts and said it wasn't a tax. When they hit SCOTUS, the suddenly changed their toon and said it was a tax.

    People aren't getting "Free this of free that" by using government programs that help the poor and middle class. Their taxes pay for it. As do everyone else's. So it's not free. Even to those who use it it isn't free.
    First, the lowest 49% of people don't pay income taxes. I don't believe for a second the government should be part of this solution. Especially with my personal encounters with true "government health care."

    And yes, I AM aware that we all pay for it. I'm also aware that state and local governments are forced to pay to put kids of illegals are forced to educate these kids, which take away from the tax paying folks. I don't think that's fair.


  86. by Indy! on September 28, 2023 7:33 pm

    Why is it always the people already receiving socialized medicine who think socialized medicine will ruin the country?


  87. by oldedude on September 28, 2023 7:43 pm
    because we're living in it's hell. Questions?


  88. by Ponderer on September 29, 2023 7:52 am

    The system that the VA has and the way it is set up and operated is not the only way that socialized medicine can operate. I guarantee you that all the civilized parts of the world are not mirroring the American VA health care system. Because it works well for the citizens of all those civilized countries and they wouldn't get rid of it for anything.

    I just wish we lived in a civilized country. Considering all the civilized countries in the world, America should certainly be one. If not the most civilized of them all.



  89. by oldedude on September 29, 2023 9:16 am
    "The system that the VA has and the way it is set up and operated is not the only way that socialized medicine can operate. I guarantee you that all the civilized parts of the world are not mirroring the American VA health care system. Because it works well for the citizens of all those civilized countries and they wouldn't get rid of it for anything."

    And the "issues" are the same.

    Funny, because I've met several expats from Europe & Canada that either live in Central America or live in FL in the winter and have private insurance here because of the crappy conditions other than "normal" care (cold, flu, assisted suicide which is used to "cure" PTS and TBI).

    OTTAWA — As many as five Canadian Armed Forces veterans were offered medically assisted death by a now-suspended Veterans That number, MacAulay confirmed, does not include the case first reported by the National Post on Thursday, where an active-service CAF member calling himself “Bruce” told Tango Romeo podcast host Mark Meincke he was offered MAID out of the blue by a caseworker last November.

    MacAulay said his office had just learned of the case via media reports, and urged the veteran — who is afraid of repercussions of coming forward — to contact him personally.

    The first case made public over the summer occurred on July 21, where the caseworker repeatedly suggested MAID to an unnamed veteran who had called seeking help with PTSD and other injuries — telling him that Veterans Affairs had helped other veterans end their lives, and that it was a better alternative to “blowing your brains out.”

    Keep in mind this is a hearing in the Parliament, so they keep those testifying (like congress) to a minimum.

    In Canada, private medical insurance does not exist. Our health care system does not allow paying with private health insurance for any hospital services that are “medically necessary.” It’s illegal for patients to pay out of pocket to skip a long waitlist for a surgery and physicians cannot accept payment from patients who want to see them sooner.

    And then of course, there's Alfie, the kid the British Government would not allow to receive medical care in the UK, and also not allow him and the parents to leave the country when offered to receive care in other countries.
    americanmilitarynews.com
    healthing.ca
    nbcnews.com


  90. by Indy! on September 29, 2023 11:38 am

    LOL! Good lord, OD. The reason those Canadians have private health insurance here is because they are not covered by Canada's healthcare if something happens to them in America. I have discussed this PLENTY of times with my Canadian friends, snowbirds and people who lived there previously. I have yet to meet a single one who doesn't give Canada's system top marks, were 100% happy with Canada's care and can't believe how barbaric our system works. Their ONLY problem is the one you just mentioned - they had to worry about something happening to them HERE - when they visit America. They have to buy temporary insurance to cover them for anything that might happen to them on vacation in the USA.

    You need to get to know your Canadian neighbors. 😂


  91. by Ponderer on September 29, 2023 12:04 pm

    Hear hear, Indy! I have a lot of Canadians relatives who wax rhapsodical about the love they have for their socialized health care. Many polls have been taken proving how much Canadians are happy with their health care system. A system, by the way, that is actually a system. As opposed to the flailing chaos of a "system" we have here.

    But od thinks that if he can give a couple negative personal experiences, that negates any notion of socialized health care being good at all.


  92. by Ponderer on September 29, 2023 12:09 pm

    I have a cousin in Canada who was in a terrible motorcycle accident years ago and was in traction and in intensive care for weeks. The kind of thing that would bankrupt the average American citizen with six-figure bills and average insurance.

    It cost him nothing! There was no out of pocket expense for him at all! All he had to worry about was getting better and not losing every dime and asset that he had.

    This is what it is like in civilized countries, od.



  93. by Indy! on September 29, 2023 3:36 pm

    One night on twitter they had a long thread with not only people from other countries talking about how great their systems are - but Americans who were on vacation and got injured, went to the hospital or doctor and were promptly fixed up with very little or no payment involved. Also people who planned "vacations" around getting low cost surgery in other countries because it was too expensive to get it in America. They would go visit the country like a regular tourist for a week or so, then get the surgery while they were there and the whole thing - travel, hotel, spending time seeing the sights, etc and having the operation - ended up costing less than having just the operation done in the U.S.!!!


  94. by Indy! on September 29, 2023 3:40 pm

    BTW, OD's version of "socialized medicine" - the VA - is run like a socialist system but is actually ruined by the capitalism part - the funding. They still have to fight for funds in Congress and we all know how much the government loves our soldiers (until they have to spend money on them).


  95. by oldedude on September 29, 2023 4:16 pm
    They would go visit the country like a regular tourist for a week or so, then get the surgery while they were there and the whole thing - travel, hotel, spending time seeing the sights, etc and having the operation - ended up costing less than having just the operation done in the U.S.!!!

    A friend of ours went to Panama to have a bunch of oral surgery done. And that was the case. How does Panama do it? They have almost zero welfare system. There is no health care insurance. There are also very strict guidelines about lawsuits. An annual checkup is about $35- $50. A few bucks for Rx if you need them. IF you happen to have insurance, it's up to you to file the claim and get reimbursed. No-one will take the forms.


  96. by Ponderer on September 29, 2023 5:32 pm

    Yeah! So everyone seems to agree! It really sounds like socialized health care is simply the way to go!


    "Take it from me and my good
    friend, Pondy. Socialized
    health care is the only sane
    and civilized way to go."


  97. by oldedude on September 29, 2023 7:34 pm
    Yeah! So everyone seems to agree! It really sounds like socialized health care is simply the way to go!

    That's what you get for not reading my post. Panama has little, if ANY social welfare. You see a lot of one legged males (from mines in the war in el Salvador) selling phone cards. Everyone works. We thought we were going through a part of the City (City Panama), and they were apartments. The US doesn't see such things. At least no one here that hasn't seen the drug ridden areas of LA, SF, NYC, Chicago, Philly.


  98. by Curt_Anderson on September 29, 2023 8:40 pm
    OD,
    The Panamanian Constitution establishes in its article 105, that any person, regardless of their legal status, can access public and private medical services in Panama.

    An Overview of the Panama Healthcare System
    Panama has a public healthcare system funded through taxes and operated by two government agencies, the Social Security Fund (known as Caja de Seguro Social, or CSS) and the Ministry of Health (known as Ministerio de Salud, or MINSA). MINSA operates public clinics called polyclinicas and regional hospitals that offer the public low-cost health services. CSS manages its public hospitals in Panama, which provide care for those paying into the government Social Security Fund through their payroll. Internationally recognized private hospitals operate alongside this system, where you can pay more for fast and exceptional care.

    Panama Healthcare System Pros & Cons
    Panama’s government agencies offer affordable healthcare and there are local efforts underway to improve public healthcare facilities. But the amenities are basic and the system is under strain. Private hospitals offer the comfort and amenities you expect to find in the U.S. and Europe. Consider the following pros and cons when deciding how to address your healthcare needs in Panama.

    internationalinsurance.com
    expatfinancial.com
    en.wikipedia.org
    help.unhcr.org


  99. by Ponderer on September 30, 2023 6:36 am

    Besides Costa Rica, Panama is one of the popular hot spots for American emigration. They use the American dollar. And their socialized health care is some of the best. In my research for a place to resettle before we moved to Tucson, Panama was actually in consideration. Although we were much more enamored of Costa Rica. Which also has a stellar Socialized Health Care System and an even larger population of American emigrants. But the humidity was a deal-breaker.


  100. by oldedude on September 30, 2023 8:37 am
    We looked at it too and spent a month down there. Good call on looking at them.

    When they say "people speak english" yeeaaaaaano. They speak Castilian spanish, and really look down on Mexicans. So I had to apologize for my Mexican accent Then everything was okay. They're laws are extremely libertarian. The government doesn't interfere with much, either in personal life or business. We were diving in the northeast beaches and the local "police" came by twice and checked our passports. The place we stayed in the city had a sign in three languages (spanish, english, russian) that made it clear that if there were same sex friends, they had to have two rooms. A statue of the Madonna was right in front of it.

    We really enjoyed our stay though. Great people. We got a great meal at a three star restaurant near David that cost us $15 each including wine (an Argentian malbec that was wonderful also).

    I also spent a couple of weeks in Cuicasada, CR. Great place, great people also.

    We made a joke in both countries about the lack of boneless/skinless chicken ranches in the countries. There aren't any hormones in their food, so the breasts are about the size of a Guina hen over here.

    All in all, I'd go Panama, but it's a personal decision of course. They're both great.


  101. by Ponderer on September 30, 2023 9:18 am

    Well, as you all know, we ended up in Tucson. And I swear we really love it here. The biggest concern is the summer heat of course. But we've survived two of the hottest summers Tucson has ever had. The humidity, which was our biggest concern for Donna's intolerance of it in Central America, is in the single digits a lot of the time here. So the 100+ heat here is a manageable obstacle.

    This time of year and until June or so, the mornings are simply heavenly. A/C is off and the patio door is open and it's perfect out on the deck with a cup of coffee and the hummingbirds to keep us company.


  102. by oldedude on September 30, 2023 5:07 pm
    I understand all of that. I think you made a good decision. Obviously, we ended up differently for different reasons. But it's all good. Good luck in the future on that move. Hope it goes well.


  103. by Ponderer on September 30, 2023 5:08 pm

    To you too, od...


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