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A Fair And Inclusive Solution For Transgender Women In Sports
By islander
April 28, 2023 5:52 am
Category: Sports

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Forbes has good article on transgenders in sports. What they propose is a good start in coming to a fair resolution to this problem and although it definitely is a problem right now, it’s not an unsolvable one...

”Trans women who transitioned before male puberty do not have a performance advantage; they would be allowed to compete on women’s teams without any restrictions if they so choose. However, in individual sports, trans women who have gone through male puberty would be allowed to practice, travel, and socialize with women’s teams if they want to, but they would be scored separately. For example, the University of Pennsylvania swimmer Lia Thomas would still swim in team meets and postseason women’s championships, but her times would be recorded in a separate, trans category.”

In sports it’s not discriminatory to separate participants by sex and/or have different divisions based on physical and age,differences. In other words a 227 lb heavyweight boxer cannot compete in the 147 lb welterweight division, and the heavyweight who wants to compete in the welterweight division cannot claim he is being discriminated against because of his weight.

I have a brother who still competes in power lifting but competes in the Masters division which is for us old guys, and a 28 year old can’t compete in that division. In my younger days I competed in Judo which also has weight divisions like boxing. At the end of a tournament there was often an “open” division which was open to any rank or weight, but the male + female divisions were still in place. Although some of the female Judokas could beat many of the males they were not allowed to compete against males in the open divisions.

Something like open divisions might be introduced into other certain sports for those who wished to participate in the open division. In an open division trans women and others of the same sex could compete with each other.

However it’s not discrimination to not allow a male who transitioned after puberty to compete against females for the same reason a heavyweight cannot compete against a welterweight.

There ARE ways to work this out so that it's fair to everyone if we really want to..


Cited and related links:

  1. forbes.com

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Comments on "A Fair And Inclusive Solution For Transgender Women In Sports":

  1. by HatetheSwamp on April 28, 2023 7:05 am

    There's definitely room for reason and common sense.

    It seems to me that, on both sides, the people who set agendas are far more radical than the rest of their movement or people group. I think it's true on both sides here. That why I'm careful not to talk about trans people, only the trans political agenda.


  2. by islander on April 28, 2023 8:01 am

    Calling the position of those who want trans woman to compete in woman’s sports without restrictions “The Trans Agenda” is an inflammatory statement and derogatory towards trans people. It is also false.

    The majority of people both trans and biological males and females recognize the problem of trans woman who have gone through puberty as a male competing in woman’s sports. There are some cranks who want to eliminate ANY restrictions on trans woman competing in woman’s sports, but calling what they are demanding, the trans agenda is intentionally misleading since that is not a part of the genuine trans agenda.

    When polled, the majority of people will likely say they oppose trans woman competing in female sports because of the way the question is asked. Very seldom will you see “with restrictions” added to the question. If they were asked if they opposed trans women competing with restrictions I think the numbers would be different.

    My question to you Hate:

    Do you, Hate, oppose trans woman competing in woman’s sports ”with restrictions” ?

    Click the link to see the genuine “Trans Agenda”.

    transequality.org


  3. by Hunter28 on April 28, 2023 10:02 am

    I'll defend Hater here. I think he was pointing to radical trans activists or advocates, those who have an all-or-nothing approach, and who typically shout "transphobe" at anyone who asks questions or suggests a more moderate approach. Usually this harassment is online, but Riley Gaines was physically confronted. These radical trans activists would probably oppose the Forbes plan since they want total acceptance and access to traditional female spaces. You're a transphobe if you suggest otherwise.

    My guess is a lot of rational people could live with the Forbes approach. It's not far from Navratilova's suggestion that there be categories for biological men, biological women, and a third for anyone else who wants to compete (trans or otherwise). Or maybe you could simply have two categories: 1) biological females and 2) everyone else.

    But isn't it odd that we're discussing these things without the input of those most affected -- the biological women who are and have been competing in these events? Title IX was created to give women a chance to compete athletically among their physical peers. And this is not just about standing on a podium. There are scholarships and endorsement deals in the mix (just look at the Nike deal that went to flat-chested Dylan Mulvaney instead of a someone with a female body). Allowing male bodies into female events erodes the intent of Title IX and all the opportunities that follow. Shouldn't women -- those born female, who underwent female puberty -- get a voice in this?

    A lot of people, including amateur and professional female athletes, feel they can't speak out because they'll be harassed, shouted down or physically attacked. It's great that Martina Navratilova used her earned stature to speak out in defense of those who are at risk of losing their rights.

    One last thought -- I've noticed that the most radical advocates for trans rights are often not trans themselves. They're progressives who don't actually have a personal stake in the issue, but see this is the next civil rights movement and take on strident and inflexible ideological positions. A lot of trans people seem to have more nuanced viewpoints.


  4. by islander on April 28, 2023 11:28 am

    ”I think he [Hate] was pointing to radical trans activists or advocates, those who have an all-or-nothing approach, and who typically shout "transphobe" at anyone who asks questions or suggests a more moderate approach.” ~ Hunter

    I think “radical trans activists or advocates”is the apt description of those people. I don’t believe they represent the views of most transgenders or biological males and females. Describing what those radicals are demanding as the trans agenda is what I find objectionable and demeaning to the trans community. The trans agenda would be what most trans, male and female, are struggling to achieve.

    The real trans agenda is what our resident transgenders, Donna and Ponderer describe. See Donna’s post describing what transgenders are struggling against. This is also why we hear those radicals being condemned by other transgenders.

    I’d like it if we had more females here describing their thoughts on this and other issues too. On a personal level, my wife and daughters understand this problem and agree wholeheartedly with the Forbes article.

    On another personal level, I mentioned my brother competing in the power lifting Masters division and two years ago at a local state meet in VA, a meet that he was competing in, a trans woman entered the woman’s division and broke “every woman’s record” ! Some that had stood for several years.

    I don’t think any reasonable person, no matter how much they tried to rationalize it, could honestly think that was right or fair to the females who spent years training for these events.

    selectsmart.com


  5. by HatetheSwamp on April 28, 2023 11:45 am

    Nice, 28.

    I don't know how old you are, but I was around when the equality and opportunity created by Title IX was achieved. It's taken for granted now but it was huuuuuuuuuge at the time. A geezer such as myself gets a tad resentful over the bio males claiming the right to compete with women. And, being a geezer myself, I understand the old school feminists and I agree with them.

    For the record, I don't call wanting males competing with women "without restriction" the trans agenda. It's one of several components of the trans political agenda that offends many...and motivates strenuous opposition. I think that when I point that out, I'm being realistic, not inflammatory.

    The truth is that the trans political agenda is controversial among three groups that I'm not a part of.

    1. Mommies and daddies and nannas and pappaps who are concerned that the trans political agenda is being promoted in public schools in ways that interfere with the values they want to pass on to their children.
    2. "Old school," feminists.
    3. Members of the LGB part of the LGBTQ community.


  6. by Ponderer on April 28, 2023 1:53 pm

    Radicals of any group or organization should not dictate things for everyone else. Donna and I have never sided with any of the radical trans activists that are out there. And we certainly don't support or condone the hallucinatory subject of "trans grooming". Even if it did exist.

    The plan laid out in the opening post works fine as far as we are concerned.


  7. by islander on April 28, 2023 2:55 pm

    Hate wrote:

    "The truth is that the trans political agenda is controversial among three groups that I'm not a part of.

    1. Mommies and daddies and nannas and pappaps who are concerned that the trans political agenda is being promoted in public schools in ways that interfere with the values they want to pass on to their children.
    2. "Old school," feminists.
    3. Members of the LGB part of the LGBTQ community."


    When you say, "trans political agenda do you mean the radical and extremist's position or the actual trans agenda ???

    When you say, "Mommies and daddies and nannas and pappaps who are concerned that the trans political agenda is being promoted in public schools in ways that interfere with the values they want to pass on to their children."

    Who are these people (the nannas and Pappas) and do you really think they know what the trans community is struggling to achieve...or...Do you think they believe that the radicals and extremists represent the Trans agenda?

    If they believe the radicals and extremists represent the Trans community do you think we should try to help them to understand the difference between the radicals and extremists and the actual trans agenda?

    Will get to your last two after we get these first two cleared up.


  8. by Ponderer on April 28, 2023 3:01 pm

    Yes, Bill. Please tell us exactly what you mean by this "trans politica agenda" you speak so assuredly about.

    What is the "trans political agenda"?


  9. by oldedude on April 28, 2023 6:55 pm
    It's been discussed at nauseum.


  10. by HatetheSwamp on April 29, 2023 3:23 am

    When you say, "trans political agenda do you mean the radical and extremist's position or the actual trans agenda ???

    What other trans political agenda is there?

    Who are these people (the nannas and Pappas) and do you really think they know what the trans community is struggling to achieve...or...Do you think they believe that the radicals and extremists represent the Trans agenda?

    Have you checked out Libs of TikTok yet? It has 2.1 million followers on Twitter. The reason it's powerful and influential is that all it is is the pasting of what real life trans and draggies say and do, and presenting their videos. What nannas and pappaps (and mommies and daddies) see on Libs of TikTok is elementary school teachers and principles promoting "radical" trans ideology to effin children. They see videos of drag queens twerking during story hour in local public libraries.

    Nannas and pappaps know more truth than you do, isle, no doubt.


  11. by HatetheSwamp on April 29, 2023 3:25 am

    po, OD's bang on. The trans political has been described ad nauseum. And, we know you know that.


  12. by islander on April 29, 2023 5:54 am

    When you say, "trans political agenda do you mean the radical and extremist's position or the actual trans agenda ???

    "What other trans political agenda is there?" ~ Hate

    Click the link below to see what the trans agenda is and then learn more about transgenderism and dysphoria.

    However, if you depend on TikTok and Twitter as your source of knowledge, then I wouldn't expect you to know much about Transgenderism or what they are actually struggling to achieve.

    If your not really interested in learning more about this then I would say TikTok and Twitter would be the best environment to suit your needs.

    transequality.org


  13. by HatetheSwamp on April 29, 2023 6:22 am

    isle,

    We've done the transequality.org thing already. Transequality.org doesn't speak for all trans people. The YOUTH AND STUDENTS position is where controversy lies. Much of the rest is innocuous.


  14. by HatetheSwamp on April 29, 2023 6:27 am

    However, if you depend on TikTok and Twitter as your source of knowledge, then I wouldn't expect you to know much about Transgenderism or what they are actually struggling to achieve.

    I don't.

    But, I know that, as a matter of political significance, well over 2,000,000 people follow Libs of TikTok on Twitter and that GAG was launched on Twitter during last year's Pride Month and it already has well over a quarter of a million followers.

    Do you UNDERSTAND how, from a purely political perspective, those realities are significant...heck!, substantial!!!!!?


  15. by islander on April 29, 2023 6:54 am

    "We've done the transequality.org thing already. Transequality.org doesn't speak for all trans people." ~ Hate

    You asked with regard to the radical and extremist's agenda "What other trans political agenda is there?"

    I gave you the answer.


  16. by HatetheSwamp on April 29, 2023 7:13 am

    Okay. Good enuff.

    Here's my sincere question: How's what's on transequality.org at odds with what you yourself consider to be the "radical" trans political agenda?


  17. by islander on April 29, 2023 7:31 am

    You won’t find anything in there demanding that trans woman must, without restrictions, be allowed to compete against biological women in sports. It’s only the radicals and extremists who make that demand and you are pretending that it represents, and IS the trans agenda in order to anger people and turn them against what the trans are actually struggling to achieve. The site makes it clear what that is.



  18. by HatetheSwamp on April 29, 2023 8:05 am

    True.

    I see nuthin about athletics either way. But I do find a position on transgenders in public schools that'd anger the mommies and daddies and nannas and pappaps, particularly regarding transgenders' use of "facilities."

    I will say that the message is not presented as polemically as it often is...

    ...but, bottom line, the mommies and daddies and nannas and pappaps I know personally and read about wouldn't sign on to this. They MAY be will to dialog with it. But agree? No.

    transequality.org


  19. by islander on April 29, 2023 8:15 am

    I know people who are anti trans, anti gay, and some who think the civil rights acts that Johnson signed are unconstitutional... Just as I know people who are against what the trans are struggling to achieve...Nothing surprising about that.


  20. by HatetheSwamp on April 29, 2023 8:25 am

    I'm sure that you know a lot of people. I, myself, don't know anyone who thinks that the Civil Rights Act is unconstitutional. As I'm sure you know, I used to watch Fox News. I've seen Caitlyn Jenner many dozens of times. These days, I don't think that there are many people who are outright anti trans.

    I think that your sense of opposition to trans PEOPLE may be exaggerated.



  21. by islander on April 29, 2023 8:43 am

    "I think that your sense of opposition to trans PEOPLE may be exaggerated."

    I don't.


  22. by HatetheSwamp on April 29, 2023 8:52 am

    Clearly.

    And, this, in my opinion, is where white, limousine liberal progressivism comes in.
    My ongoing assessment is that you are unnecessarily harsh and judgmental about people different than you.

    It goes back to my assertion that the GOP is the home of openness, inclusion, tolerance and acceptance, diversity and FREETHINKING. On our side, we can abide and respect people who think differently than we do. We do it with each other daily.



  23. by Ponderer on April 29, 2023 10:13 am

    "The trans political has been described ad nauseum." -Hate

    It has been talked about ad nauseum. Certainly. But you have not described it at all. All you have done is just shake the term in our faces and go, "BOOGIE, BOOGIE, BOOGIE!!!". Or tell us about how others are shaking it in everyone else's faces going, "BOOGIE, BOOGIE, BOOGIE!!!".

    And you won't describe it because you know that the moment you do, we will use actual facts to shoot down any specific nonsense you list for the hallucinatory, flaming bullshit that it all is.

    There is no such thing as the "trans political agenda".


  24. by oldedude on April 29, 2023 10:38 am
    Perhaps it was just something you can't or refuse to understand.


  25. by HatetheSwamp on April 29, 2023 11:10 am

    Yeah, po. I have to go with OD on this one. In a sense, in the last month or so, posts here on SS have been dominated by trans political issues.

    It seems to me that you're refusing to see what's obvious.


  26. by islander on April 29, 2023 4:11 pm

    "My ongoing assessment is that you are unnecessarily harsh and judgmental about people different than you." ~ Hate

    You're assessment is wrong. I Like people who are different than me. The world would pretty boring if we were all the same...However...I don't suffer dishonest and disingenuous people gladly.


  27. by HatetheSwamp on April 29, 2023 4:29 pm

    I Like people who are different than me.

    You don't show that well.


  28. by HatetheSwamp on April 29, 2023 4:45 pm

    Robert Kennedy Jr. opposes allowing trans women to compete in female sports

    "I am against people participating in women’s sports who are biologically male,” Kennedy, 69, said...

    A Biden Administration proposal introduced earlier this month aimed to forbid schools and colleges across the county from enacting outright bans on transgender athletes.

    Last week, however, House Republicans passed a bill that would ban transgender female athletes from taking part in girls’ and women’s sports by amending Title IX protections to only apply to biologically female athletes.

    nypost.com


  29. by oldedude on April 30, 2023 1:07 am
    Isle- Going back to your original post. Please sit down. For the most part, I agree with you on this. Taking a breath and putting things on "hold" (meaning it's like a Christmas "truce" in the old wars) isn't a bad idea at all, although it's going to p1ss off both sides. I do see some places that are sticking points that need to be looked at.

    1. I'm not sure (meaning I don't know) how absolute the blockers are for pre-pubescent males.
    2. Which creates a whole new issue with changing the sex of a pre-pubescent child (clearly an absolute game stopper for many).
    3. What to do with those on the right, where this is a core-value for them.
    4. What to do with those on the left, where this is a core-value for them.
    5. Get everyone to put down the guns (literally) and actually put this out in a way to we can discuss this without telling each other to "Please go fukk yourself... You fukking deranged, bigoted assholes are totally destroying America while wiping your asses with other people's Constitutional and human rights. You really need to fukk yourselves, but good."


  30. by islander on April 30, 2023 6:30 am
    od ~

    1. I'm not sure (meaning I don't know) how absolute the blockers are for pre-pubescent males.



    I don’t know what you mean by absolute. Do you mean they might not help in delaying the onset of puberty?

    2. Which creates a whole new issue with changing the sex of a pre-pubescent child (clearly an absolute game stopper for many).

    Still not sure what you mean. Can you clarify?

    3+4. What to do with those on the right (or left), where this is a core-value for them



    We all probably have core values that are different than someone else's, you and I for example very well might have such differences. With these kinds of issues like abortion, gay marriage, transsexualism etc. I think we should be faithful to our own core values. For instance, if someone believes that a fertilized egg is a person don’t take any kind of pill that might act as an abortifacient, nor should either side have to change their beliefs about gay marriage or the immorality of divorce etc. But, in instances like these where there are huge differences among people’s values...don’t try to use the government to force others to live by your own core values nor should anyone be able to use the government to force you to live by their core values.



  31. by oldedude on April 30, 2023 7:11 am
    1. I'm not sure (meaning I don't know) how absolute the blockers are for pre-pubescent males.



    I don’t know what you mean by absolute. Do you mean they might not help in delaying the onset of puberty?


    1. How the blockers actually. To me, it would have to be on the DNA/RNA level to be "absolute" where the body doesn't produce any of the hormones (or the proper amount for the gender). The trick would be to have the body produce the proper mix of hormones (since males do have estrogen, and females have testosterone naturally, but at varying rates as people age).

    2. Which creates a whole new issue with changing the sex of a pre-pubescent child (clearly an absolute game stopper for many).

    Still not sure what you mean. Can you clarify?


    The issue is not "allowing" adults to change (>18 yo). Two core values are in play. 1. How involved are the "educators" in the child's decision to explore their sexuality? How is that the "schools" responsibility?
    1a. Do the "educators" refuse to tell the parents what is going on with their children at the school.

    2. How liable are the parents in this case? As was put out in the WY case, the daughter attempted to change her pronouns back and the school refused to do so. Most of the teachers did not know her by her real name. Her stand for the court is that she was afraid of telling the "educators" that she didn't want this again because of the reaction of the "system" when she did try.

    All the time, the parents were kept in the dark about the entire situation. I hate to say it but I will. This is what groomers do. "You can't tell anyone about this." She was afraid of the power of the "educators" and their "system" until the parents found out by happenstance. The other educators didn't even know her real name. This is grooming in it's purest form. Those in power with the perception of retribution on the victim.

    The daughter, legally a child, was afraid of the groomers because of the power they had over her. This may be perceived or real because both are legally the same in brain washing/ grooming.
    wallstreetpr.com


  32. by oldedude on April 30, 2023 7:25 am
    Isle, you've said that parents can "just send their kids to other schools." That's not close to being true. Most parents don't have the cash because they don't have a voucher system so better schools get more money and schools are rewarded for being good. Some states are changing to a voucher system. I fully support this. Not having the system particularly hurts the low to middle class trying to get ahead. The rich are going to do it anyway. In the DC area, at the first hint a mother is pregnant, they make an appointment with the admissions of the preschool, which feeds in to their chosen elementary school. Cost for these schools are more than my base pay as a Senior NCO maxed out on my years (about $40K). Not having vouchers is the rich folk ploy to ensure the stratification of the education system.


  33. by islander on April 30, 2023 8:21 am

    How the blockers actually. To me, it would have to be on the DNA/RNA level to be "absolute" where the body doesn't produce any of the hormones (or the proper amount for the gender).

    GnRH analogues delay the onset of puberty by helping to suppress sex hormones like testosterone and estrogen. When taking these drugs the physical changes that would occur during puberty are paused.  They do not change a person’s  DNA/RNA nor would there be any need to do so and it would probably not be possible (or practical) to even try given the state of present knowledge and technology.

    The issue is not "allowing" adults to change (>18 yo). Two core values are in play.

    These medical issues should be between the family and their doctor.

    How involved are the "educators" in the child's decision to explore their sexuality?

    The school can’t make such a decision for a student. However it would be helpful for students to know about and understand transgenderism just as any other aspect of sex education is important .

    How is that the "schools" responsibility?

    I don’t know how you are using the word “responsibility” with regard to what a school teaches but it would probably be similar to a school’s “responsibility” to teach biology or social studies etc.


  34. by Ponderer on April 30, 2023 8:27 am

    "It seems to me that you're refusing to see what's obvious." -Hate

    Oh I see what's obvious: The MAGA Republican party is employing political terror tactics to weaponize the MAGA Republican party members ignorance and bigotry to eradicate the minority I belong to. And they don't care how many of my brothers and sisters they kill or destroy the lives of to do it.

    I am doing the exact opposite of refusing to see what's obvious, Bill. I am acknowledging the obvious with horrified awareness.


  35. by HatetheSwamp on April 30, 2023 8:36 am

    Eradicate?

    Ah. Are you referring to the Death Camps? I thought we'd kept them a secret!!!!!

    Baha baha baha bahahahahahahahahahaha.


  36. by Ponderer on April 30, 2023 9:19 am

    Young members of my community are hanging themselves in their garages over the living hell that MAGA Republican politicians and people like you are trying to impose on their lives.



    And you think it's fukking hilarious.



    Yet another example of why you truly need to go fukk yourself, Bill.


  37. by oldedude on April 30, 2023 6:36 pm
    "Young members of my community are hanging themselves in their garages over the living hell that MAGA Republican politicians and people like you are trying to impose on their lives."

    So my initial thought is "why are they hanging themselves over something being "tried" to do to them? mmmm.... could it be they are being scared by you (et al) into believing they are being targeted? So it's useless to use the open forums and openings for peaceful political discourse? I see that as something your side is creating to show how many "fear" the right. So you manipulate (read brainwashing) them into thinking they will be put into "re-education" camps, and done all the crap the burniebros promised to the right. It's an excuse for you. Instead of working WITH people, you're hoping they die so you can gain political power.


  38. by Ponderer on May 1, 2023 12:12 am

    "Instead of working WITH people, you're hoping they die so you can gain political power. " -olde dude


    🙄


    Okay, olde dude. I see what's going on here...

    I'm sorry that you felt so left out by my giving pb so much attention.

    Please don't worry; I think you're a demented asshole too...!


  39. by HatetheSwamp on May 1, 2023 4:45 am

    Young members of my community are hanging themselves in their garages over the living hell that MAGA Republican politicians and people like you are trying to impose on their lives.

    I seriously doubt that.

    But, you're confusing me. I thought the perpetrators of the oppression of trans youts were "Christian theocrats." Your anger and hate are so hard to keep up with.

    And, please. Don't forget to blame LGB and old-school feminist Martina Navratilova, et.al..

    Remember that little ditty, "Everybody hates me. Nobody likes me. Guess I'll go eat worms..."

    MAGAs
    "Christian theocrats"
    LGBs, and,
    Feminists

    You are reeeeeeeeeeeally up against it, eh!!!!!?



  40. by oldedude on May 1, 2023 7:18 am
    And don't forget, "paranoiawilldistroya!"


  41. by Ponderer on May 1, 2023 8:02 am

    "I seriously doubt that." -Hate

    Of course you do. You are forced to by your bigotry and aversion to reality. It's why you can laugh at the horrors that trans people have to go through that the MAGA Republican party is currently intensifying with its heinously sociopathic propaganda

    Please check out the link below and tell me how anything the MAGA Republican party is doing currently will do anything but make the situation far worse for trans people in this country. It's a piece from the Mental Health Commission of Canada, but it's relevance is absolutely universal.
    mentalhealthcommission.ca


  42. by HatetheSwamp on May 1, 2023 8:20 am

    But it's not MAGA Republicans.

    It's:

    "Christian theocrats,"
    Old-school feminists
    And, anti-TQ LGBs.

    I don't doubt that the trans youth struggles, uh, Donna describes so poignantly, are real.

    More and more people with each passing day oppose the trans political agenda's proposed remedies.

    And, based on what anti-TQ LGBs are arguing, trans groomers probably are increasing LGBTQ youth angst.


  43. by oldedude on May 1, 2023 8:34 am
    Again, you're supporting groomers by not putting any limits on your hatred of everyone else in the world. I don't even mind kids "learning" about trans in an open environment. In HS (14 yo+). That seems reasonable because

    1. they're human beings also.
    2. It would help eliminate issues in the future about bigotry.
    3. If there are children that are considering transition, peers would be more open to them not as "its" but as people in transition. Especially at this time in life, that acceptance is key for them.

    Again, I don't think any surgeries, etc should be done prior to 18. If you let your kid get a tattoo, it's felony child endangerment. And you can get rid of or change a tattoo. This has to be taken as a very serious subject and not a whim. I don't have any issue at all regarding counseling any time in life. That takes family support, I understand that.

    Donna has been very frank and open describing what she went through, and I appreciate that. No surprises, but to hear it was good. I feel that if I asked, she would be honest replying to an honest question. That's a great first step in opening up a conversation based on respect.


  44. by HatetheSwamp on May 1, 2023 9:35 am

    Again, I don't think any surgeries, etc should be done prior to 18. If you let your kid get a tattoo, it's felony child endangerment. And you can get rid of or change a tattoo. This has to be taken as a very serious subject and not a whim. I don't have any issue at all regarding counseling any time in life. That takes family support, I understand that.


    BANG ON...in capital letters!

    Gender dysphoria is a serious issue for a minutely small minority of the population. Minors who suffer from it should absolutely have diagnosis and counseling available to them.


    OD,

    I try to catch the first half hour of Clay and Buck when I can because its right wing audience is so very large. It not only describes mainstream right-wing thought...

    ...it also drives it, i.e., what those guys say is incredibly influential in driving where the people of the right will think in the near future...

    ...and, Clay, a lawyer who knows how to make a case, is pretty bright.

    He's noting, today, that people suffering from Body Dysmorphic Disorder may think that they should have, say, an arm removed and that those people suffer as intensely as people suffering from gender dysphoria who suffer wanting to have breasts or a penis removed.

    If we allow children to have gender affirming mutilations performed, how can we justify denying people who want to lose arms or legs? Indeed.

    Undoubtedly, the suffering is as intense.


  45. by Ponderer on May 2, 2023 7:53 am

    "Again, I don't think any surgeries, etc should be done prior to 18. If you let your kid get a tattoo, it's felony child endangerment." p-Hate

    Always with the flaming asinine attempts at an equitable comparison.

    Keep up the good work there Bill.

    👍


  46. by HatetheSwamp on May 2, 2023 11:57 am

    po,

    You're not quoting me. But, I agree with that sentiment.


  47. by islander on May 2, 2023 2:52 pm

    It's illegal in some states for a minor to get a tattoo, in others it's perfectly legal with parental consent.


  48. by Ponderer on May 3, 2023 6:30 am

    "You're not quoting me. But, I agree with that sentiment." -Hate

    Oh. That's right. I forgot how you love to hide behind the words of others to express your opinions. That was actually olde dude you were "quoting".

    And that's fine! You and everyone who wants to is perfectly free to think and agree with whatever you want to on this subject.

    But your baseless, brainless, misguided opinions about it have no business whatsoever coming in between a child, their parents, and their doctors on this issue. The government has no business usurping parents civil and constitutional rights by pig-ignorantly denying care and expert treatment for the legitimate medical and psychological needs of their children. And such heinous sociopathy has no business being made law.

    You are not only free to express your heinously immoral and sociopathic thoughts on this subject. You are also free to stuff them all back up your ass.


  49. by Ponderer on May 3, 2023 6:42 am

    "He's noting, today, that people suffering from Body Dysmorphic Disorder may think that they should have, say, an arm removed and that those people suffer as intensely as people suffering from gender dysphoria who suffer wanting to have breasts or a penis removed." -Hate

    I believe that you may have made something of a personal religion out of making inequitable comparisons. And this latest stellar example only proves the blithering, babbling pig-ignorance of the subject that you bring to the debate. You're spouting an If man evolved from apes, why are there still apes? type of absurdly idiotic logic with that nonsense.

    Excuse me: you're not spouting it. It was the expert lawyer guy you were quoting who did the spouting. You are of course entirely agnostic on the subject and believe what he is saying is neither here nor there.

    Jesus Fukking Christ you can so totally go fukk yourself, Bill.


  50. by islander on May 30, 2023 8:40 am

    I think this, from the Forbes article is something worth considering. It allows a transgender athlete to compete with others in a sport they all love, and also to be able to socialize and enjoy the camaraderie that comes from being with one's teammates and other athletes.

    "”Trans women who transitioned before male puberty do not have a performance advantage; they would be allowed to compete on women’s teams without any restrictions if they so choose. However, in individual sports, trans women who have gone through male puberty would be allowed to practice, travel, and socialize with women’s teams if they want to, but they would be scored separately. For example, the University of Pennsylvania swimmer Lia Thomas would still swim in team meets and postseason women’s championships, but her times would be recorded in a separate, trans category.” *

    *Forbes


  51. by islander on May 30, 2023 8:42 am
    Sorry, wrong thread...


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