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Politics selectors, pages, etc.
It’s time for Trump supporters to re-enter the reality-based community and see the truth.
By islander
February 17, 2023 7:25 am
Category: Politics

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It’s time for former President Donald Trump and his associates to face the consequences of creating and perpetuating the lie that the 2020 election was stolen. And it’s time for his supporters to re-enter the reality-based community and see the truth.

Jill Filipovic
"The findings of a Georgia special grand jury should put to rest any lingering questions about the validity of the 2020 election. The special grand jury was tasked with investigating whether there were “possible attempts to disrupt the lawful administration of the 2020 presidential elections in the State of Georgia.”

They found, unanimously, “that no widespread fraud took place in the Georgia 2020 presidential election that could result in overturning that election.” And damningly, a majority of the grand jury said that they believe witnesses may have lied to them while under oath — and that the district attorney should issue indictments where appropriate.

The grand jury spent months hearing witness testimony and evaluating the evidence. And it’s worth noting that the public still does not know most of what is in their report, including who they believe should be indicted for perjury, the full list of who testified in front of the grand jury, and whether the grand jury recommended indictments for crimes beyond perjury. This means that the core findings of the special grand jury — whether Trump and his associates unlawfully interfered with the election in Georgia — are still hidden from the public.

That we’re even reading this much of the grand jury’s report is to the credit of the free press and their demands for accountability and transparency. After a legal back-and-forth over whether the grand jury report should be released to the public — and after the jurors themselves voted to recommend that the report be published — a Georgia judge ordered the publication of small sections of the report, including the introduction, conclusion, and a section related to possible witness perjury. The full report, though, remains confidential, with the judge citing due process and fairness. “


Cited and related links:

  1. cnn.com

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Comments on "It’s time for Trump supporters to re-enter the reality-based community and see the truth. ":

  1. by HatetheSwamp on February 17, 2023 7:32 am

    It’s time for former President Donald Trump and his associates to face the consequences of creating and perpetuating the lie (?????) that the 2020 election was stolen. And it’s time for his supporters to re-enter the reality-based community and see the truth.

    Except the unsubstantiated, bahahahahahahahahahaha, claim that it's a "lie," this is precisely what pb's been saying for a looooooooong time.

    In fact, it's long past time!


  2. by islander on February 17, 2023 8:59 am

    "Except the unsubstantiated, bahahahahahahahahahaha, claim that it's a "lie," this is precisely what pb's been saying for a looooooooong time."

    And the fact that you believe it has not been substantiated that Trump's claims that the election was stolen from him due to massive voter fraud is a lie clearly demonstrates that you are still living in the La-La land of Trump supporters and are not a part of the reality-based community and therefore you do not CANNOT see truth...Of course you'll never be able to see truth as long as you think truth is what YOU believe and continue to deny the fact that Truth is that which conforms to reality.

    Repent, Hate,and you too will be able enter the realty based community of those who are able to see and recognize the truth. Until then you will be forever lost in the Trump world of lies...


  3. by Ponderer on February 17, 2023 9:10 am

    "Except the unsubstantiated, bahahahahahahahahahaha, claim that it's a "lie," this is precisely what pb's been saying for a looooooooong time." -Hate

    There's that tell of yours again, Bill.

    See how it slips its Freudian way into your statement that contradicts established and documented facts which you are incapable of rationally denying or supporting with contradictory facts of your own? Sort of an autonomic reflex for you at this point I'm afraid.


  4. by HatetheSwamp on February 17, 2023 9:27 am

    isle and po,

    Take a chill pill. No need to insult pb. Prove him wrong. NBD, eh!!!!!?

    Prove that Trump is lying when he says that he believes that the election was stolen.

    Warning. I watched the J6 Committee hearings too. I remember that, when those ace TDSers got to the end of the road, all they had was trying to convict OrangeMan for what he didn't do or 187 minutes.

    But, please. Fact. That's all that's missing.



  5. by Curt_Anderson on February 17, 2023 9:27 am
    Islander remarked above that HTS thinks truth is what he believes. To expand of that a bit HTS thinks that if a lot of other people believe the same thing that it verifies what he believes to be true. He constantly cites polls that a portion of Americans are election deniers as “proof” the 2020 election was stolen.

    Ponderer, you are right that his typed out hysterics is the tell of HTS. When OD realizes he has no arguments in response his tell is accusing me of supporting heinous acts. Such as insisting that I support the rape and beheading of four year olds or as he did last night, claiming that I want to put conservatives into reeducation camps. Reeducation camps, hmm…come to think of it, not such a bad idea!


  6. by HatetheSwamp on February 17, 2023 10:14 am

    No, Curt. pb's unaware that it's an established fact that Trump knows for certain that he honestly lost but continues to deny it...thus lying. I do also note that you are frustrated near the point of insanity by the reality that several tens of millions Americans continue to distrust the honesty of the 020 election no matter how vehemently the progressive SwampMedia report otherwise.

    It's nigh unto impossible for the sanctimonious elitist progressive SwampLover...read Curt...to realize that some Americans are truly freethinkers.

    Again. If you can prove that Trump truly knows that he lost and that he's misrepresenting, have at it.


  7. by Ponderer on February 17, 2023 10:34 am

    "Prove that Trump is lying when he says that he believes that the election was stolen." -Hate

    Straw man. It doesn't matter a damn what he believes, Bill. His belief isn't what's on trial here. If someone uses their undying and total belief that the guy they are on a video shooting was "The Antichrist" as their defense, they are still going to prison for committing murder. The judge isn't going to say, "Well gee. I didn't realize that was what you believed. So sorry for the trouble we've caused you. You are innocent and are free to go on your way."

    The issue is what he knew, Bill. And given the vast number of testimonies under oath by the entire team of legal experts of the White House, not to mention like five dozen hysterically ludicrous and failed court cases, he was told in no uncertain terms that there was absolutely no evidence whatsoever that any of Trump's accusations were true, let alone that he actually won the election.

    Just because he found a couple lunatics who managed to somehow get a law license and support his deranged belief to support his totally unreal accusations told him absolutely baseless, phantasmagorical nonsense, it doesn't contradict the fact that he, and even those lunatic "lawyers" he glommed onto, knew what the truth was. They all knew it. There was even evidence of that!

    And I'm not going to bother wasting my time presenting what has already been presented to you and has been in the public record for many months only to have you blow it off and go, "LALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU...! LALALALA I DON'T ACCEPT WHAT YOU ARE SAYING...! LALALALALA...!"

    It was proven that he knew he didn't win. It was proven that he knew he had no evidence to legally back up any claim he had that he won the election and Biden didn't. He knew it, regardless of what he wants everyone to think he believes.

    Bill, if the entirety of his legitimate legal team and all the actual experts told him what the legal reality is, and the law and all evidence totally supports everything they were telling him, holding his hands over his ears while screaming, "LALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU...! LALALALA...! I DON'T ACCEPT WHAT YOU ARE SAYING...! LALALALALA...!" is laughably not going to hold any water as a legal defense. So just get off this what he believed straw that you are desperately grasping at to obsequiously defend him.

    He undeniably knew he lost. He undeniably knew that there were no further legal options open to him. Whatever mental gymnastics he wanted to employ to make himself believe His Big Lie is a legal non sequitur. Sorry.

    What is legally relevant is that he used that lie he knew to be false to incite his armed and violent cult members to commit a homicidal insurrection against the Capitol in an attempt to overthrow the government of the United States. Since he was all out of all legal means to stay in office, it was all he had left to o it with.

    But please. Don't let this stop you in your despicable, demented, subservient defense of him. Your deranged, sycophantic support of him no matter what is a no-ending source of uproariously humorous entertainment.


  8. by Ponderer on February 17, 2023 10:35 am

    "No, Curt. pb's unaware that it's an established fact that Trump knows for certain that he honestly lost but continues to deny it...thus lying." -Hate

    Translation:

    "LALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU...! LALALALA...! I DON'T ACCEPT WHAT YOU ARE SAYING...! LALALALALA...!"


  9. by Ponderer on February 17, 2023 10:41 am

    "It's nigh unto impossible for the sanctimonious elitist progressive SwampLover...read Curt...to realize that some Americans are truly freethinkers." -Hate

    So you actually think it takes a "freethinker" to brainlessly believe Trump's proven and legally documented lies...? That is what "freethinking" means to you???

    Wow, Bill. Just..... Wow.


  10. by HatetheSwamp on February 17, 2023 10:44 am

    ...given the vast number of testimonies under oath by the entire team of legal experts of the White House, not to mention like five dozen hysterically ludicrous and failed court cases, he was told in no uncertain terms that there was absolutely no evidence whatsoever that any of Trump's accusations were true, let alone that he actually won the election.

    No. Uh uh, po. That paragraph is filled with bullfernerner. You get away with those lies when you're hanging out with other TDSers, I'm sure, but pb is a freethinking person who rejects myth and bases his life in fact. So, don't even try going there.

    If you're aware that Trump knows he lost and is, actually, lying about it, fine. Put up. I despise Trump I'll be happy to know this truth...

    ...but, beyond the TDS universe, I'm pretty sure you're going to come up empty.


  11. by Curt_Anderson on February 17, 2023 10:50 am
    “No, Curt. pb's unaware that it's an established fact that Trump knows for certain that he honestly lost but continues to deny it...thus lying.” —HtS

    It doesn’t matter if Trump knows he lost or is delusional and thinks he won. Some people, including Fox News personalities, know better and make the false claim that the election was rigged. That makes it a lie.

    “I do also note that you are frustrated near the point of insanity by the reality that several tens of millions Americans continue to distrust the honesty of the 020 election no matter how vehemently the progressive SwampMedia report otherwise.”

    I am not sure they all really believe it. They are still a minority of the population. Their numbers are declining. It is more disappointing than frustrating that so many Americans are rejecting the essence of democracy.

    “It's nigh unto impossible for the sanctimonious elitist progressive SwampLover...read Curt...to realize that some Americans are truly freethinkers.” —HtS

    Not freethinkers, but reality-free thinking. It is not sanctimonious if we don’t suffer fools gladly.

    “Again. If you can prove that Trump truly knows that he lost and that he's misrepresenting, have at it.” —HtS

    See my first sentence above.


  12. by Ponderer on February 17, 2023 11:00 am

    It doesn't matter a damn to me that you don't believe what I'm saying.

    You'll be denying the same thing when what I am saying is born out as the factual case when it goes to trial. You'll be guffawing your pig-ignorant ass off at it no matter how true and factual it is.

    Given all the documented under oath testimonies and evidence presented by all the actual experts that were in a position to know what they were talking about who told him personally and to his seemingly conscious face that he lost the election, he had no legitimate reason not to know and understand what they were saying. What he believed, even in his microscopic heart of hearts, is irrelevant.


    Or wait... Are you trying to hold the door open for him launching an insanity defense...?


  13. by islander on February 17, 2023 11:38 am

    “Again. If you can prove that Trump truly knows that he lost and that he's misrepresenting, have at it.” ~ Hate

    You are such a foolish man, Hate !! 🤣

    Do you really think that what Trump believes has anything to do with whether or not he lost the election due to massive fraud? If so, it helps to explain why you are so easily led to believe so much that is false and why you have such a hard time understanding what it means for something to be true!

    Like Pondy said, the truth about the election doesn't depend on what Trump himself believes or doesn't believe about it !!

    Repent, Hate, repent! So that your eyes will be opened and you too will know the TRUTH !!!



  14. by HatetheSwamp on February 17, 2023 11:47 am

    Do you really think that what Trump believes has anything to do with whether or not he lost the election due to massive fraud?

    Duh. No.

    What it has to do with is your claim that the assertion that the election was stolen is a lie. Apparently you can't prove that Trump is lying about it. He believes it. Clearly.

    So, then, you lied about Trump.


  15. by Ponderer on February 17, 2023 12:01 pm

    Isle is right, Bill.

    You don't have to be a slave to all the lies you have based your very being on for so long. You don't have to follow despicable cult leaders any longer. It's up to you. It's within your power to accept reality and be an actual free thinker and think something other than the bald-faced lies that Fox and the Republican party have been pouring down your willfully gaping gullet for so many years now.

    Take that power over you that you gave them back, Bill! Don't let them all keep making such an obvious chump out of you!


    Go back to your honest, Christian roots, Bill. Reexamine your relationship with Jesus and get back to the first day of seminary basics. If I know anything about Him at all, I am confident that He'll forgive you for having wiped your ass with His teachings for so many years just to support the despicable, immoral, and anti-Jesus things and people you have. Things and people that are so antithetical to the things you learned about in that seminary school. I can only imagine the joy with which Jesus will welcome you back into His loving arms from whence you so long ago abandoned, His arms still outstretched...


    And if you think that my saying this somehow makes me "sanctimonious", please feel free to prove here for us how you know that Jesus isn't using me to send you a desperately needed message?



  16. by Ponderer on February 17, 2023 12:52 pm
    *bump*


  17. by islander on February 17, 2023 1:55 pm

    ”What it has to do with is your claim that the assertion that the election was stolen is a lie. Apparently you can't prove that Trump is lying about it. He believes it. Clearly. So, then, you lied about Trump.” ~ Hate

    This involves two very different questions.

    1) Is it true that the election was not stolen.?..Yes

    Is Trump lying when he says it was stolen?...How could anyone prove to you what Trump believes or doesn’t believe? Trump is a known liar, and any reasonable, intelligent, and honest person with an ounce of integrity can look at the overwhelming evidence and conclude that the election wasn’t stolen. Trump can, look at the same evidence and should also know that it wasn’t stolen. Can do you explain why Trump shouldn't be able to know it wasn't stolen?

    Therefore it is reasonable to say that more than likely, Trump is lying when he asserts that the election was stolen.




  18. by HatetheSwamp on February 17, 2023 2:05 pm

    The only point here, isle, is that you claimed that Trump is lying.

    He isn't. Or, at least, you can't demonstrate that he is.


  19. by Curt_Anderson on February 17, 2023 2:29 pm
    HtS,
    You are confusing your beliefs with truth again. Trump told a lie, it doesn't matter if you believe otherwise. It doesn't even matter if Trump believes otherwise.


  20. by HatetheSwamp on February 17, 2023 2:33 pm

    It doesn't even matter if Trump believes otherwise.

    You're a moron.


  21. by islander on February 17, 2023 2:34 pm

    Hate...There are now 19 posts here...Tell which post I said that...Here's what I did say;

    "Therefore it is reasonable to say that more than likely, Trump is lying when he asserts that the election was stolen."

    And in that same post #17 I explained why;

    "Is Trump lying when he says it was stolen?...How could anyone prove to you what Trump believes or doesn’t believe? Trump is a known liar, and any reasonable, intelligent, and honest person with an ounce of integrity can look at the overwhelming evidence and conclude that the election wasn’t stolen. Trump can look at the same evidence and should also know that it wasn’t stolen. Can do you explain why Trump shouldn't be able to know it wasn't stolen?"

    Can you now answer my question to you as to why Trump shouldn't be able to know the election was not stolen?



  22. by HatetheSwamp on February 17, 2023 2:49 pm

    Can you now answer my question to you as to why Trump shouldn't be able to know the election was not stolen?

    I can think of two compelling reasons.

    1. He doesn't get his news from MSNBC, CNN, the NYT, WaPo, the HuffPo and Rachel, none of which actually care about truth.

    2. He's a narcissist.


  23. by islander on February 17, 2023 3:56 pm

    Hate wrote answering my question as to why Trump couldn't know the election was not stolen; He [Trump] doesn't get his news from MSNBC, CNN, the NYT, WaPo, the HuffPo and Rachel, none of which actually care about truth."

    Trump got his news from Fox Propaganda News just like you LoL !!!

    "Propaganda network’: Dominion filing exposes Fox News as ‘void of the most basic journalistic ethics’... The bombshell court filing by Dominion Voting Systems in its $1.6 billion defamation case against Fox News has exposed the right-wing cable channel as "a propaganda network like never before..." The texts show Fox trapped in a dilemma of its own making, afraid to admit the election was honest bc they'll lose viewers to Newsmax. Tucker rages and tries to get Fox reporter fired after she admits the election wasn't stolen... Sommer calls the almost 200-page filing "one of the most remarkable documents I've ever seen," and adds: "Filled with private texts between Fox stars like Hannity and Carlson, plus Murdoch, all admitting they knew Fox's stolen election claims were lies." -Raw Story

    "I’m asked a lot why more of my Republican congressional colleagues & more of my right wing media colleagues never spoke out against Trump. Why? Just Look at this Fox lying scandal. Hannity & Tucker are making millions. Liz Cheney is no longer in Congress." -Joe Walsh

    "So many right-wing and Intellectual Dark Web "media critics" must have started the long weekend 36 hours early. Hard to understand otherwise why they've fallen silent about the worst media scandal in recent history, Fox's confessed deception of its viewers about the 2020 election..." -David Frum, Bulwark

    Hate wrote: "He's [Trump] a narcissist."

    Just like YOU !!! You two are cut from the same cloth! 😆






  24. by Donna on February 17, 2023 4:46 pm

    Hts will never admit that he was duped.


  25. by Ponderer on February 17, 2023 4:52 pm

    No, I am afraid he never will.


  26. by Curt_Anderson on February 17, 2023 4:56 pm
    It's much easier to dupe than to undupe.


  27. by oldedude on February 17, 2023 6:52 pm
    What I get from isle is the same thing I get from po. My "feelings" are the truth. Regardless of what he says, that is still the over-riding factor in his posts. He very seldom posts FACTS. He posts "feelings" from others he agrees with. I do admit there are times when I do post an "OPINE" but they reference facts that I cite. OR I post the cites then draw a conclusion. Skippy and francie (or whatever their names are) are ONLY opinion. They don't cite facts. They cite opinion from another source (which they may trust, but it's not the black and white facts).

    His "reality" is not mine. Or anyone else's for that matter. We may agree on things, but his (and everyone else's including mine) are not the same. I've seen the world he wants. Mostly in shthole countries or countries that are on a downward spiral. That is my "reality". I don't expect to agree with him often at all. That's okay.


  28. by oldedude on February 17, 2023 9:36 pm
    sorry that I was "quoting" him from a cite.


  29. by HatetheSwamp on February 18, 2023 3:20 am

    What I get from isle is the same thing I get from po. My "feelings" are the truth. Regardless of what he says, that is still the over-riding factor in his posts. He very seldom posts FACTS. He posts "feelings" from others he agrees with.

    And, OD, that's the way of the woke, don't you think?

    Feelings are facts. There are moments that I'm frustrated but, mostly, I'm bustin a gut.


  30. by islander on February 18, 2023 7:14 am

    "What I get from isle is the same thing I get from po. My "feelings" are the truth. Regardless of what he says, that is still the over-riding factor in his posts. He very seldom posts FACTS. He posts "feelings" from others he agrees with. I do admit there are times when I do post an "OPINE" but they reference facts that I cite. OR I post the cites then draw a conclusion. Skippy and francie (or whatever their names are) are ONLY opinion. They don't cite facts. They cite opinion from another source (which they may trust, but it's not the black and white facts)". - od

    I don't know if you realize it or not, od, but what you just did was express your feelings. Nothing inherently wrong with that since it's a part of what we do in our discussions here. The other part of the discussions is how we justify them. We can certainly post articles written by others as a part of that justification.

    I posted this from Heather...In your opinion is she giving us her opinion or presenting us with facts?

    "Today, part of the report of the special purpose grand jury investigating possible criminal interference in the 2020 election in Georgia was released under court order. It explained that 26 Fulton County, Georgia, residents, three of whom were alternates, made up the grand jury, and 16 of them made up a quorum, enabling the jury to conduct business. Beginning on June 1, 2022, the grand jury heard testimony from or involving 75 witnesses, almost all of it in person and under oath. It also heard testimony from investigators and got digital and physical media.

    The grand jury found “by a unanimous vote that no widespread fraud took place in the Georgia 2020 presidential election.” It also reported that “[a] majority of the Grand Jury believes that perjury may have been committed by one or more witnesses testifying before it,” and it asked the district attorney to “seek appropriate indictments for such crimes where the evidence is compelling.”


    How about the things you post,od. Are they facts? Or are they your feelings?

    For example:

    "Honestly, you post only means you don't care about the human beings and the ecosystems there and what it's doing to every living thing there and downwind for years to come."/i> Are those your feelings, or do you think you just posted facts about what Curt cares about?

    "I've seen the world he [isle] wants. Mostly in shthole countries or countries that are on a downward spiral." Is that what I want? Do you consider what you said to be fact or are those your feelings about what I want?



  31. by oldedude on February 18, 2023 9:58 am
    When I cite someone, I never take their "word" for it. I will go to the source of what they're saying. I may use their words if they are better than mine, but back up what they say with the FACTS as close to the original source as possible. The further you get from the source, the closer you are to hearsay. Every generation you get away from the original source, the "facts" change, even slightly. People on all sides are guilty of this, so it's not a left/right/center thing. In all intel work, you must consider the source (which is rated) and the veracity of the statement. If you have 10 people that saw something. You will have 10 different statements. If it's a person, you'll have 10 different descriptions. Height, weight, hair color, skin color, race, etc. And these are people that swear by what they saw, and are good citizens trying to help with no ulterior motive. Politics is much different because they do have a motive to shift the "truth" to their views.

    "Honestly, you post only means you don't care about the human beings and the ecosystems there and what it's doing to every living thing there and downwind for years to come."/i> Are those your feelings, or do you think you just posted facts about what Curt cares about?"

    I'm only taking his word for it. I've said this repeatedly, and he's never rebutted, nor has he ever shown anything different.

    I did forget one step in the chemistry of burning poly chlorinate. Phosgene. I know you don't give a sht about this, but it is a nerve agent used in WWI. Phosgene is the organic chemical compound with the formula COCl2. It is a toxic, colorless gas; in low concentrations, its musty odor resembles that of freshly cut hay or grass. It can be thought of as formaldehyde with the hydrogen atoms replaced by chlorine atoms. Phosgene is a valued and important industrial building block, especially for the production of precursors of polyurethanes and polycarbonate plastics.

    Phosgene is extremely poisonous and was used as a chemical weapon during World War I, where it was responsible for 85,000 deaths. It is a highly potent pulmonary irritant and quickly filled enemy trenches due to it being a heavy gas.

    It is classified as a Schedule 3 substance under the Chemical Weapons Convention. In addition to its industrial production, small amounts occur from the breakdown and the combustion of organochlorine compounds, such as chloroform.


    So curt and you have shown you don't care about the true victims of this while people will die. That's what I have trouble with. I'm also a constitutional libertarian that doesn't like big government, and thinks the government needs to get off the pot and involves themselves in actually caring for people and not make up reasons, justifications, and excuses for sitting there and watch them die. Most of the bill pedojoe (and curt, et al) were proud to have passed mostly involved so called "green" issues. WTF? And you can't raise a finger to help these folks?
    en.wikipedia.org


  32. by islander on February 18, 2023 11:24 am

    od you still don't realize that in your posts you are expressing your feelings.

    You can cite Wikipedia or any other source describing poisonous chemicals but what you can't seem to grasp is that facts about chemicals are not evidence that "Curt doesn't care about the human beings and the ecosystems there and what it's doing to every living thing there and downwind for years to come"...

    What you have been doing is simply expressing your "feelings" regarding what you feel Curt and I 'think'. You are dead wrong in your feeling about what I think and I have not seen any 'facts' at all that support your feelings about what curt thinks.


  33. by Curt_Anderson on February 18, 2023 12:11 pm
    First let me say that it's refreshing to hear conservatives be so concerned about the plight of Palestinians...specifically the residents of East Palestine Ohio, but still it's heartening.

    Also it's refreshing to hear conservatives call for more federal government help. Maybe they'd even be willing to help pay for that in the form of paying debts and collecting taxes. Perhaps this is consistent with conservative hypocrisy, complaining about the cost of natural disaster response in blue states--like Hurricane Sandy.

    This disaster is not an act of god. It's an accident and the fault of private enterprise, namely Norfolk Southern. The onus is on them not the government.

    FEMA's role is help out in the aftermath of hurricanes, tornadoes and other natural disasters where there is significant and widespread property damage. The train derailment/spill isn't any of those. However FEMA is there in East Palestine doing whatever they can to assuage people's fears.

    There are not any measurable amounts of dangerous chemicals like phosgene in the environment. People there are upset about the unknown--in other words they are worried because of their feelings.





  34. by oldedude on February 18, 2023 12:13 pm
    I'll let curt speak for himself.

    In talking about the spill, not once did he support the human beings on the ground there. Talking about the number of dead in Afghanistan, he never once talked about the other human cost, and dismissed the humans coming back with traumatic amputations, CPTS, and those that will die from their injuries that you can't see. He dismissed the fentanyl deaths as "no one told them they had to do it." He did the same thing supporting the cartels, their sex trafficking, and the systematic rapes that occur. Empathy is part of EQ.


  35. by islander on February 18, 2023 12:17 pm

    ”I'll let curt speak for himself.”

    Wonderful !!! That would be much better than you telling us what he thinks and feels. 🍻


  36. by Curt_Anderson on February 18, 2023 12:19 pm
    I did speak for myself. In case you missed it, see comment #33.


  37. by oldedude on February 18, 2023 12:55 pm
    Phosgene is a biproduct of the burning. If everything is "safe" why is the wildlife dying and the water has iridescent scum in it now? Remember, these are the same folks who told Flynt, MI the water was safe, the water at Camp Lajune was good and the burn pits in Iraq and Afghanistan were safe. So I'm really not hopeful about this. Especially understanding what's being released.


  38. by Curt_Anderson on February 18, 2023 1:17 pm
    OD,
    I empathize and understand your feelings. But your feelings are not in accord with the facts.

    The EPA was critical early on of the former Republican governor and his administration's pooh-poohing and handling of the Flint Michigan water crisis. The EPA called it inadequate and a failure.

    As for Camp Lejeune, "In 2009 the U.S. federal government initiated investigations into the allegations of contaminated water and failures by U.S. Marine officials to act on the issue. In August 2012, President Obama signed the Janey Ensminger Act into law to begin providing medical care for people who may have been affected by the contamination. In February 2014, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention found that the contaminated water at Camp Lejeune significantly increased the risk of possibly contracting multiple diseases, though they did not say that the water actually caused any disease."

    Even though it really cannot be determined to what extent Camp LeJeune might be responsible for people's illnesses years later, it hasn't stopped a lawsuit cottage industry from sprouting up.

    The Trump administration rolled back some 100 environmental rules including rules governing clean air, water, wildlife and toxic chemicals. As a person who cares about my fellow citizens, I voted against Trump twice.


    npr.org
    en.wikipedia.org
    nytimes.com


  39. by Donna on February 18, 2023 2:52 pm

    The highly carcinogenic vinyl chloride that residents have already inhaled may have already set in motion the development of cancers. I would think that children are at the highest risk. My heart goes out to the residents of East Palestine.



  40. by Donna on February 18, 2023 2:59 pm

    As for the factual content of posts, all of us post facts as well as feelings, but based upon years of my observations, I think Hts has by far the highest feelings to facts ratio.


  41. by Curt_Anderson on February 18, 2023 3:25 pm
    Donna,
    The vinyl chloride and phosgene that might have been inhaled was in a plume of smoke during the controlled burn of the tanker cars. Gov. DeWine ordered an evacuation of a two mile radius before the planned burn. Police did a house-to-house check to be sure everybody had left before setting the chemicals ablaze.


    npr.org


  42. by Ponderer on February 18, 2023 3:26 pm

    You've seen Hate post "facts"???


  43. by oldedude on February 18, 2023 6:15 pm
    Points taken. I'll rephrase.

    The Government (whatever level) has continually lied to the public regarding crisis's. In two of the cases regarding the military. It is JUST NOW that either of those is approved for VA treatment. Although your timeline may be accurate, available treatment was not accessible to those affected.

    It took from the early 1960's until 1991 for congress to recognize Agent Orange. And that was only to part of those affected.

    It took 30 years to recognize GWS and burn pits.

    CPTS is only available to a few of the affected.

    TBI is the same has taken from the 1970's until now to be registered, but is extremely limited.

    The same thing happened with Flint, etcetcetc. My guess is these folks will just be hung out to die.


  44. by Donna on February 19, 2023 7:45 am

    I'm aware of that, Curt. My point stands.


  45. by Donna on February 19, 2023 7:46 am

    And I'm as outraged as you are about all of those things, olde dude.


  46. by Curt_Anderson on February 19, 2023 9:27 am
    Donna,
    Is there any evidence that people inhaled vinyl chloride?

    Vinyl chloride is used to make polyvinyl chloride (PVC) pipes, wire coatings, vehicle upholstery, and plastic kitchen ware. Higher than normal levels of vinyl chloride may be present inside new cars as the chemical evaporates from new vinyl products. You know, that new car smell.

    Vinyl chloride can be formed in the environment when soil organisms break down "chlorinated" solvents.


  47. by islander on February 19, 2023 9:43 am

    So the train accident proves that Trump and his associates didn't create and perpetuate the lie that the election was stolen?

    Hmmm...🤔


  48. by Donna on February 19, 2023 10:30 am

    Some people in East Palestine have experienced symptoms consistent exposure to vinyl chloride and/or phosgene.

    The article below is one of the more informative pieces I've read on the spill.



    salemnews.net


  49. by HatetheSwamp on February 19, 2023 10:35 am

    Is there any evidence that people inhaled vinyl chloride?

    There seems to be evidence that small animals did. The full human effect of this will likely be known after you and I are gone. Think 911.

    But, Curt! Doesn't your Good German engine not have an off switch. C'mon man. Gimme a break!

    If it's not support for the Führer with you, it's BUT TRUMP. BUT TRUMP! On this, it's BOGO.


  50. by Donna on February 19, 2023 11:26 am

    "There seems to be evidence that small animals did. The full human effect of this will likely be known after you and I are gone. Think 911." - Hts

    Indeed.

    It may turn out that no one's health is adversely effected by exposure to those carcinogens. But in the meantime I'm not about to jump on the Don't worry your little heads - there's nothing at all to worry about here bandwagon. That may be their honest assessment, but history is rife with examples of government and corporate spokespersons telling us that something is perfectly safe and then it turns out later that they were wrong - cigarettes, Agent Orange and toxic burn pits to name a just few.

    Incredible report at the link below where you can watch the interview or read the transcript. There's information in it that I haven't seen anywhere else.

    Intro:

    Fears of a wider health and environmental disaster are growing, after a 150-car freight train operated by Norfolk Southern derailed and a so-called controlled burn released toxic chemicals last week in East Palestine, Ohio.

    Residents reported seeing a fireball and mushroom cloud of smoke fill the skyline. Data released by the Environmental Protection Agency shows the train contained more toxic and carcinogenic chemicals than initially reported, including phosgene, a poisonous gas that has been used as a chemical weapon in war.

    Officials lifted an evacuation order for residents last Wednesday, saying the air and water were safe, but residents have reported sore throats, burning eyes and respiratory problems, and wildlife has been found dead.

    Meanwhile, scrutiny has turned onto Norfolk Southern, which in recent years has challenged regulatory laws aimed at making the rail industry safer and made mass cuts to railroad staffing while spending billions on stock buybacks and executive compensation.

    We get an update from Emily Wright, community organizer based near the site of the derailment; Ross Grooters, a locomotive engineer and co-chair of Railroad Workers United; and Julia Rock, an investigative reporter with The Lever.


    Much more at the link below.



    democracynow.org


  51. by Curt_Anderson on February 19, 2023 11:35 am
    Donna,
    “Symptoms consistent with”? Short-term exposure to vinyl chloride in the air can result in irritation of the eyes, nose, throat, and lungs. Vinyl chloride exposure can also cause dizziness, sleepiness, headache, nausea, or tingling in the arms and legs. Who doesn’t experience some of those symptoms at times?

    HtS, as for those small animals you mentioned. They apparently ignored the governor’s evacuation order. Scofflaws!


  52. by Donna on February 19, 2023 11:55 am

    I think the implications is that they weren't experiencing those symptoms before the spill & burn. What? Are you calling them liars?

    As was discussed on the Democracy Now report, those cars were burning those chemicals before the "controlled burn", before people were ordered to evacuate, and winds as high as 45 mph were blowing during the controlled burn and spread those poisonous fumes to across multiple counties in across 3 states. That's something I haven't heard reported by the mainstream media.


  53. by Curt_Anderson on February 19, 2023 12:16 pm
    Donna, they are not liars because “it’s not a lie if you believe it”. But their self-diagnoses may be wrong. I had bad headache the other day, I wondered if it was tension, the onset of flu or COVID or an allergy. It’s gone now and I will never know the cause. Doesn’t that happen to everybody? If there had been an environmental spill within miles I’d list that as a possible cause of my headache.


  54. by Donna on February 19, 2023 12:28 pm

    You're being ridiculous.


  55. by Curt_Anderson on February 19, 2023 1:22 pm
    Donna,
    I don't think I am the one being ridiculous here.

    I read that the Ohio environmental department had measured amount of vinyl chloride in the air at various points to be three parts per billion, which is considered safe. The EPA indicates it's safe according to their measures.

    This week's weather forecast for East Palestine Ohio includes rain and 20 mph winds. Is that enough to clean the air of any dangerous chemicals and gases? I would think it would it to be safe, but I don't know.

    But I do know what Dr. Marco Salemi at the University of Florida said: "In any environment, even in our homes, every time we take a breath, we breathe in probably thousands of different bacterial and virus strains." There are countless unknown pathogens in the air right now. Some have the potential to start a pandemic. There are also many airborne allergens in the air.

    I am not saying that those chemicals gases released from the train car tanks are NOT possible causes for the symptoms that people experience there, but there are many other possible causes which includes everything from animal dander to mass hysteria. I also think that Norfolk Southern is liable for damages and should pay up, which will no doubt happen in the form of lawsuits.

    I would still measure the contaminant levels in my private well and other sources of water but eventually a person has to decide it's safe to breathe the air and drink the water or have a logical reason to think it's not. I don't think fear of the unknown is a sufficient reason.

    Incidentally, East Palestine is in historic coal country. There are abandoned coal mines and all types of environmental damage from mining there. Add that to your list of possible causes of the symptoms and diseases that people experience there.
    npr.org
    columbianacounty.org


  56. by Donna on February 19, 2023 1:41 pm

    "The EPA indicates it's safe according to their measures." -

    We've heard that before.

    Christine Todd Whitman, who as head of the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) under George W Bush at the time of the 9/11 attacks told the public the air around Ground Zero in New York was safe to breathe, has admitted for the first time she was wrong.
    theguardian.com


  57. by Donna on February 19, 2023 1:47 pm

    This is from 2018. I have no idea if the EPA has made corrections since then.

    Most of the EPA’s pollution estimates are unreliable. So why is everyone still using them?


    publicintegrity.org


  58. by Curt_Anderson on February 19, 2023 2:02 pm
    In the 9/11 Twin Towers tragedy there were unlimited and unknown contaminants in the air. We know what was burned off from those tankers.

    Yes, governmental agencies can be wrong. Medicine can be wrong. Science can be wrong. Generally those entities admit and correct past mistakes. So can the residents of East Palestine Ohio be wrong. In order for society to progress we must operate and make decision to the best of our abilities and knowledge based on evidence.

    We cannot function if we stop at what might be with no evidence and instead rely on "concerns". His own concerns and the concerns of others is all that HtS has for him to believe that the last election was rigged. We cannot convict people because we are concerned that they might be guilty. You might be hit by a car tomorrow, that's a concern. That doesn't mean should never leave your house. But look both ways when you cross the street.


  59. by oldedude on February 19, 2023 3:08 pm
    What is known:

    1. Phosgene cannot be collected from air samples. It gets into the permeable substances and doesn't break down for decades. That's a plus in the sender of Phosgene in the military sense. That's also why it took so long to replant the fronts from WWI. We know it kills animals. This includes people.

    2. There is an iridescent sheen in the water. This is caused by the spilled petrochemicals reflecting light. These are arriving in West Virginia.

    3. Most coverage of the train wreck in Palestine, Ohio is missing one word: dioxin. There were reportedly five tanker cars full of vinyl chloride monomer (VCM), a precursor to polyvinyl chloride — that is, vinyl or PVC. Then there were four cars filled with PVC pellets. Burning vinyl is tied for the most serious source of dioxin in the environment — whether from trash incinerators, house fires or chemical spills. The other is the effluent from paper mills, which use chlorine bleach. So you're spilling AGENT ORANGE and high levels of chlorine bleach into the river water for there and downstream.
    planetwavesfm.substack.com


  60. by Curt_Anderson on February 19, 2023 3:32 pm
    Apparently phosgene can be detected in the air. There are a number of companies that do it. There is plenty of scientific literature online explaining the process.
    en.safetygas.com


  61. by Donna on February 19, 2023 3:34 pm

    The EPA was compromised under the leadership of Trump appointee and coal lobbyist Scott Pruitt, which is likely why a hundred environmental regulations were revoked during Trump's tenure. I haven't heard of any such things happening under Michael Regan or if any of those environmental regulations that Trump's guy Pruitt removed havr been reissued under Biden's guy Regan.

    Interesting explanation at the link below as to why electronically controlled pneumatic (ECP) brakes haven't been ordered to be installed on trains that carried highly flammable hazardous materials, including crude oil, not that they would have prevented the recent spill in East Palestine from happening though, because the brakes that started the fire were on a car that wasn't carrying highly flammable hazardous materials.

    verifythis.com


  62. by Donna on February 19, 2023 3:40 pm

    "In the 9/11 Twin Towers tragedy there were unlimited and unknown contaminants in the air." - Curt

    Yes Curt, but EPA head Whitman declared the air was safe to breathe. If they weren't sure, which they obviously weren't, then she had no business declaring that the air was safe to breathe, right? The honest thing to do would have been to say that they weren't sure whether or not the air was safe to breathe.


  63. by oldedude on February 19, 2023 8:09 pm
    I truly don't think this is a partisan thing. The people involved in this? Richard Nixon, Gerald Ford, Jimmy Carter, Ronald Reagan, George H. W. Bush, Bill Cliton, George W. Bush, Barack Obama, Donald Trump, Joe Biden, and the congress during this time. I think the EPA has had license to lie at "their" (meaning the swamp to protect themselves) whim. What we have here/now is a massive trash pit from Afghanistan/ Iraq in the US. So for those that wanted the military to be worked with, it's time to ******* the fuk up and care about these human beings. If not, your life is worth less than the trash they were burning.

    Honestly, if you're going to wait until "they prove" some bullsht, people are dead. That is the fact of this. We were told to think very carefully to have children after Gulf I (how did they know that then and not accept the problems for 30 years?), Those with Agent Orange have a HUGE possibility of spinal bifida, severe infantile nerve damage in their new born children, spontaneous miscarriages, their kidneys cease to function, their liver ceases to function, for generations we will see the Agent Orange "effect." and now you just wait for it to happen. Those waiting? You're disgusting.


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