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Government selectors, pages, etc.
What's the deal with unreturned classified documents?
By Curt_Anderson
January 12, 2023 12:01 pm
Category: Government

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If I don't return a book the local library, eventually I will be get reminders with an increasingly aggressive tone to bring it back.

How is it then that Biden wasn't notified to return the documents that he was holding onto? I suspect that there is a KYA tendency to over-classify every scrap of paper in the flurry of paperwork in Washington DC. Even so, there should be some central repository, the National Archives probably, that sends out reminders and alerts when any document is overdue. That apparently happened in Trump's case with at least some of the classified documents he held. But it doesn't happen every time apparently.

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Comments on "What's the deal with unreturned classified documents?":

  1. by HatetheSwamp on January 12, 2023 12:05 pm

    Curt,

    You're not serious. This time I refuse to fall for your Good German-ism.

    Bahahahahahahahahahaha!

    They normally don't cast geezers on SNL. But, you've got talent.


  2. by Curt_Anderson on January 12, 2023 12:10 pm
    HtS, I am not sure if your response is just a non sequitur, a misplaced comment or evidence of your dementia.

    If all the classified documents are really that important and secret, then alarm bells should go off when any are missing.


  3. by HatetheSwamp on January 12, 2023 12:22 pm

    So, Joe's being abused? The fault is that be didn't receive an overdue notice from the National Archives. Joe's the victim?

    No. In pb's opinion, your original cover-up take describes what's going on with the Former Trucker. We wouldn't know any of this. There would be no Biden Special Counsel had not CBS then NBC forced "that feckless dementia-ridden piece of crap's" thugs to come up with a story.

    Joe's a liar. He ain't no victim.


  4. by Curt_Anderson on January 12, 2023 1:01 pm
    I am not defending Biden. I am pointing out that this classified document retainment system is dysfunctional. If these papers are a matter of national security, then some central agency should know at all times who has them. Just as our library knows when a book is overdue and who has it.


  5. by islander on January 12, 2023 1:09 pm
    Special counsel pledges to conduct Biden documents probe with "fair, impartial and dispassionate judgment"

    Robert Hur issued a statement following his appointment by Attorney General Merrick Garland as special counsel in the Biden documents probe.

    “I will conduct the assigned investigation with fair, impartial, and dispassionate judgment. I intend to follow the facts swiftly and thoroughly, without fear or favor, and will honor the trust placed in me to perform this service,” he said.~ CNN

    This is exactly what I want to see, a thorough investigation. So far Biden has been cooperating fully as any president should. Biden didn't try to claim they were his property or take classified documents home, the documents were found in his former office at the Penn Biden Center for Diplomacy & Global Engagement in Washington.

    I'm looking forward to getting to the bottom of this, and now we'll see where the facts lead...But in the Mara-a-Lago case, there was a repeated effort for nearly a year and a half to get Donald Trump to turn over those documents and it was only after multiple attempts to retrieve them and the execution of a search warrant that we were able to get them back.

    I fully expect the Republicans to try and make as much political hay out of this for as long as they can. I doubt anyone thought they wouldn't.


  6. by HatetheSwamp on January 12, 2023 2:01 pm

    So far Biden has been cooperating fully as any president should. Biden didn't try to claim they were his property or take classified documents home, the documents were found in his former office at the Penn Biden Center for Diplomacy & Global Engagement in Washington.

    How is it that you progressive SwampLovers give up your minds so willingly.

    If CBS had not broken the Biden document scandal when Clouseau was in Mexico and then NBC hadn't detailed the existence of that second tranche, we still wouldn't know a d@ng thing.

    pb'll just repeat his point in his first thread about this scandal: When the Trump mess exploded, OD and pb didn’t root for Trump nor defend, though there was some to defend.

    What we really know is that, even by the admission of the Former Trucker's thugs, the presence of these documents was known before the election. It became public knowledge only after investigative reporters made it public. How do we know that the Flatulent Fool has been cooperating fully? We don't. AT ALL. We only have White House propaganda.

    You say a lot about yourself based on what you are willing to believe from the depths of your subjectivity.

    From the beginning, while OD and pb have been freethinking and fair about Trump, pb predicted that you SwampLovers would aggressively join Team Joe. But, the truth is that, eventually, we'll see. But don't be a teeniebopper at a Boy Band concert. Use your brain, buddy! Joe may make a fool out of you. Probably will.


  7. by Curt_Anderson on January 12, 2023 2:15 pm
    "If CBS had not broken the Biden document scandal when Clouseau was in Mexico and then NBC hadn't detailed the existence of that second tranche, we still wouldn't know a d@ng thing." -HtS

    The FBI doesn't publicize when they execute a warrant. They didn't in Trump's Mar-a-Lago case. It was Trump who whined that his "beautiful home is being raided" on social media. He was watching the FBI search via his Mar-a-Lago security camera from New York City where he was for a tax fraud trial at the time.


  8. by HatetheSwamp on January 12, 2023 2:43 pm

    Curt!

    When the fibbies invaded Melania's lingerie closet, the press appeared in droves! How could they not have.

    In the case of Clouseau, pb's not faulting the FBI for its lack of transparency and honesty. The point is that all of this has been going on with the Flatulent Fool's presidency since before the fall election and nary a word to the voters from the White House thugs that it was not forced to issue because of the work of investigative reporters.

    We have no idea what the Flatulent Fool knew and when he knew it.

    This stinks grossly of Nixon.


  9. by Curt_Anderson on January 12, 2023 3:23 pm
    Reportedly Biden knew about the classified documents last October. It would have been political malpractice to announce it then.

    Grownups don’t expect politicians to publicly confess their sins and faults. You certainly didn’t expect Trump to. We have free press to investigate office-holders. That important part of democracy is what Trump called “fake news”.


  10. by oldedude on January 12, 2023 7:29 pm
    Regardless of what you "think" of classified documents, they are classified. Period. End of story. curt, you can have your reasons, justifications, or excuses for protecting pedojoe, but that is, in fact what you are doing.

    Question curt. According to your "theory," Trump should be let go also, correct? Classified doesn't change because of the person that has it. Right?

    Why don't alarm bells go off? Like I said earlier (and apparently you chose not to read it), These documents are on a specific computer system depending on the classification. IF I'm cleared for that level of classification (the computer knows and limits me in my search, including specific classifications and level of clearance). IF I'm the VP, I'm cleared for that level of classification. I look at the document and print it on the specific printer that is only used for that level of clearance. I can then print it. In MY case, I log the document by it's number (like I talked about earlier) and have to account for it in writing every week.

    People that take out classified material don't bother to do that. That's why it's considered a burglary. Then you get in to time for each document that you have outside of a secured area.

    So this thread is nothing but bullsht.



  11. by Donna on January 13, 2023 7:11 am

    It was clear to me after reading Curt's opening post that he was simply questioning what the National Archives' policy was regarding following up on missing classified documents, and that he wasn't excusing Biden.

    You two want to argue about everything, even when someone wasn't intending to start an argument... which is a big part of why I'm reducing the time I spend here. I have much better ways to spend my free time. I'll probably be spending even less time here than I had planned.







  12. by HatetheSwamp on January 13, 2023 7:15 am

    I disagree, Donna. Curt's a Good German through and through.


  13. by oldedude on January 13, 2023 7:57 am
    curt- It would have been political malpractice to announce it then.

    Grownups don’t expect politicians to publicly confess their sins and faults. You certainly didn’t expect Trump to.


    As a matter of fact I do. It a matter of morals and integrity. Especially then. Although I'm not surprised, as pedojoe has shown he has a complete lack of morals and zero integrity. He's nothing more than a puppet of the extreme wing of the party.


  14. by islander on January 13, 2023 8:49 am
    Here's where we're at with this so far;

    "The appointment of a special counsel seemed inevitable considering what Garland called “extraordinary circumstances”—likely a reference to the fact that former president Trump is being criminally investigated for his own handling of documents marked classified—and it serves to reinforce the idea that the Department of Justice treats everyone the same. This is a good thing.

    But it presents a problem for MAGA Republicans. Unable to attack Biden for having documents marked classified in his possession without also faulting Trump, Republicans have tried to suggest that Biden was being treated differently than Trump is. The appointment of a special counsel undermines that. It also takes away from House Republicans the publicity they could get by investigating the issue themselves. House Speaker Kevin McCarthy said this morning that he did not “think there needs to be a special prosecutor,” and that Congress should conduct its own investigation.

    This evening, Republicans appear to have settled on the talking point that Hur is tainted by his time at the Department of Justice under Wray—although Wray was appointed to the FBI directorship by Trump—and that his appointment is further evidence of the “political weaponization” of the FBI and the Justice Department.

    (Just to be clear: people writing about these cases keep referring to “documents marked classified” rather than “classified documents” because classification status can change, as Trump argued when he said he had declassified the materials found in his possession despite their markings. It’s awkward phrasing, I know, but it marks an important distinction.)

    So far, anyway, Biden’s possession of documents marked classified appears very different from Trump’s. Biden’s team offered up to the National Archives and Records Administration (NARA) the information that Biden had documents in his possession, has apparently been zealous about searching for them, and is apparently cooperating with the Justice Department.

    Here’s the story Garland laid out today: On November 2, Biden’s lawyers found a batch of documents from the time of the Obama-Biden administration when they were cleaning out Biden’s office at the Penn Biden Center for Diplomacy and Global Engagement, the Washington, D.C., think tank where Biden worked after his time as vice president. They immediately contacted NARA, which took possession of the documents the next morning. On November 4, NARA’s inspector general contacted the Justice Department to notify it of the document exchange, and on November 9 the FBI began to assess whether Biden had illegally mishandled classified information.

    According to journalist Matthew Miller, classified documents often get taken from government facilities by accident. Those errors are reported, the documents recovered, and a damage assessment made to determine whether further action needs to be taken, all of which took place here." *


  15. by islander on January 13, 2023 8:50 am

    * HRC Author of above post.


  16. by HatetheSwamp on January 13, 2023 9:53 am

    This evening, Republicans appear to have settled on the talking point that Hur is tainted by his time at the Department of Justice under Wray...

    isle,

    pb consumes a fair amount of right-wing media...no doubt much more than does Heather. I'm unaware of this GOP talking point. How bout a handful of links.


  17. by oldedude on January 13, 2023 9:55 am
    "But it presents a problem for MAGA Republicans. Unable to attack Biden for having documents marked classified in his possession without also faulting Trump, Republicans have tried to suggest that Biden was being treated differently than Trump is."
    Good thing we're not MAGA Republicans. Otherwise, we would have the exact reverse double-standard of morals the dim sheep do. I laid out the case, and at the top of that is that neither of them should have had the classified.

    Unfortunately for the dims, obomber made it legal if kept in a SCIF. Which apparently Trump did. I disagree with this not because it was obomber, but it creates this sort of confusion and BS fighting. I also don't see a need for a TS document since you can't cite it legally for your memoirs. I would dump every piece of classified and ensure nothing was taken out of the Whitehouse. It isn't worth the trouble.
    selectsmart.com


  18. by Curt_Anderson on January 14, 2023 11:31 am
    "It was clear to me after reading Curt's opening post that he was simply questioning what the National Archives' policy was regarding following up on missing classified documents, and that he wasn't excusing Biden." --Donna

    You are correct. That was the point I was making. The classified document system is broken. There doesn't seem to be any point of control. It seems to be based on the honor system, which is no system. Apparently the National Archives was unaware Joe Biden had any classified documents. I strongly suspect that there are other boxes of files in the homes of former cabinet members and elected officials that unknowingly contain classified documents.

    I have run in races in which all the participants are given a small chip which is attached each runner's shoelaces. It measures each contestant's complete race time and points along the way. I believe it tracks the route too to keep people from cheating by taking short cuts. Along those lines, people track their luggage with AirTags.

    Since we are talking about something more serious than race times or lost luggage, namely our national security, it would seem that there is technological solution at least for unintentional mishandling and moving of classified documents.


  19. by Ponderer on January 14, 2023 12:22 pm

    I'm sure there is, Curt. It ought to be implemented.


  20. by Donna on January 14, 2023 1:07 pm

    Oops, that ^ was also mine.


  21. by oldedude on January 14, 2023 8:17 pm
    The policies and procedures are implemented. It's the humans that screw this thing up. This is what makes me really po'd about the situation. The regulations and laws are actually pretty clear.

    When we would travel, someone would have to go to the Security Officer at the SCIF and sign everything out. They would know who was on our mission. When we came back, we would write our reports on the proper computers, file those reports electronically, and send them up to command.

    We would then turn in the jump drives, and they were checked by serial numbers and for any viruses. If you did have anything that wasn't supposed to be on them, you were screwed. That includes viruses, because the security officers knew if there were any viruses on any of the computers in the world since it's a closed system.



  22. by Curt_Anderson on January 26, 2023 9:36 am
    As I said above and elsewhere on these pages there is a systemic problem with and elsewhere on these pages, the handling of classified documents. I am glad the national archives is looking into it.

    Washington CNN— The National Archives is formally asking former presidents and vice presidents to re-check their personal records for any classified documents or other presidential records in the wake of classified documents discovered in the homes of former President Donald Trump, former Vice President Mike Pence and President Joe Biden over the last year.

    The Archives sent a letter Thursday to representatives of former presidents and vice presidents from the last six presidential administrations covered by the Presidential Records Act (PRA) – from former President Ronald Reagan’s White House to the present.


  23. by HatetheSwamp on January 26, 2023 9:49 am

    Definitely a step in the right direction.

    I still believe that the first branch of government needs to exercise oversight.


  24. by Curt_Anderson on January 26, 2023 10:13 am
    As I said, I am a advocate of W Edward Demings’ philosophy of management. You are suggesting that the first branch of a of government, that is Congress, exercise oversight. That is tantamount to them being quality control inspectors which W Edward Demings says is a job that should be abolished.


  25. by oldedude on January 26, 2023 6:33 pm
    These are quality control inspectors which W Edward Demings says is a job that should be abolished. So you're saying the lives of people are not important. Got it. I mean, I know you feel that way, but when you actually deal inside of the genre, it changes your view dramatically.

    Checking and rechecking things are essential in many operations of both civilian and government jobs. You're saying there should be zero quality control and checks of aircraft safety? Or safety for medical products you're injecting yourself and your children? Or gun safety? Or the military? or Police? NOT to believe in these things is at least callous, and horribly stupid.

    My point is that Demming is not a one-stop cure all and is extremely dated. He "assumes" any business operates like they did in the 1950's/ '60's, which is not close to being true now. It isn't "change management" anymore. That idea was old in the 1980's. It's being ahead of your business and leaving Demming in the dust. Businesses are now in hundreds of Boyd's OODA loops of information and spectrums, most by small groups trying to figure out the answer of a single problem in a company of tens of thousands of employees.


  26. by Curt_Anderson on January 26, 2023 10:23 pm
    OD,
    Quality control does not equal quality inspectors.

    Deming advised that everybody involved in the manufacturing process be "quality inspectors". For example, everybody on the assembly line if a part is passed onto them doesn't meet specs that person should be able to stop the line.

    The old fashioned quality inspectors would only examine the gizmos at the end of the process or perhaps spot checks along the line. Either way errors are hidden and built inside the product or errors are randomly missed.

    Anyway back to HrS's idea: Congress by definition is partisan and as exampled by their completely different attitudes regarding Trump, Biden and Pence and their classified documents, you know that they would not be impartial in their oversight.


  27. by HatetheSwamp on January 27, 2023 6:02 am

    Congress by definition is partisan and as exampled by their completely different attitudes regarding Trump, Biden and Pence and their classified documents, you know that they would not be impartial in their oversight.

    And, that's the sin of the J6 Committee against the American Dream. It's also why it will have no legacy...except to fuel the hate and anger of TDS sufferers.

    The Constitution requires that Congress have oversight over the Executive Branch.


  28. by oldedude on January 27, 2023 7:45 am
    Congress by definition is partisan and as exampled by their completely different attitudes regarding Trump, Biden and Pence and their classified documents, you know that they would not be impartial in their oversight.

    I agree. Like I have posted several times, congress (both houses) are still waiting for information on cliton's bathroom server. Treasury has already stated they will not comply with the house's request for information on pedojr. This means that even if subpoenaed, hell will freeze over before the information is given. Trump is out of congress' hands and is now with DOJ. Not sure about Pence.

    As I've stated all along. If it's wrong for one person to have them out of the office (being the prez), it's wrong for all. If they go by the obomber EO, then it was okay to take it out. The next step is how they had the classified kept.

    For the VP and lower on the echelon. There isn't a loophole for them. Sorry Mike, I like ya, but it's the goose/ gander thing again. Congressional members have NO legal right to take or keep classified information. So there's that.

    But as far as other information goes, things are much different this time around. The dims will have access to the hearings and have the ability to show their case. Although I am thinking the reason is as political as the Trump inquisition, the methods used will not be near the same. I wish they would though. Just to see what the left says about being treated as they treat others. In this case, I think there are only three people that would be rejected in the committee. swalwell, who can't hold a security clearance (by law) in either the private or public sector (cite #1). shiftless, who's proved again and again he's incapable of being trusted with classified information (cite #2, #3). And the overtly racist Omar (cite #4).
    washingtonexaminer.com
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    floridianpress.com
    foxnews.com


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