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Opinion selectors, pages, etc.
Orwellian doublespeak
By islander
March 18, 2022 6:05 am
Category: Opinion

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This seems to be far more common today than it was in the past. Or maybe it is just more blatant. The divide in our country makes it obvious that it still works.

The link below describes it quite well and shows how it works, and it's not just foreign dictators that use it to manipulate their own people. We see it in use everyday.

Well worth reading!

Cited and related links:

  1. theconversation.com

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Comments on "Orwellian doublespeak ":

  1. by HatetheSwamp on March 18, 2022 6:12 am

    I couldn't get your link to work. I tried twice. Could you check that you entered it correctly?

  2. by islander on March 18, 2022 6:51 am

    Apparently the link address might be too long for this format, copying and pasting the address from the original article works fine (other than here)

    I'm trying it again but if it doesn't work, for anyone interested, just google

    theconversation.com Putin's brazen manipulation of language
    theconversation.com

  3. by islander on March 18, 2022 6:56 am

    I just tried posting the link on FaceBook and it worked fine. Must be a glitch on this end. It is an excellent article from "The Conversation" site.

  4. by islander on March 18, 2022 6:59 am


    Try this!
    theconversation.com

  5. by HatetheSwamp on March 18, 2022 7:22 am

    Got it.

    Thanks.

    Good article.

    I actually got around to reading Nineteen Eighty-Four not so long ago...about a year-ish.

    It's brilliant.

    It was standard Stalin/USSR.

    Putin is channelling Stalin. He's been clear that he wants to restore the Russian Empire but, it seems to me, that, in his mind, Russia's greatest days were Stalin's days.

    And, I think our Congress gets that. Congress authorized nearly $14 billion for the defense of Ukraine. I don't know about you, but I think that our President is inviting worldwide disaster in accessing only a small fraction of what the representatives of the people authorized...in one of the greatest acts of bipartisanship, in many decades.

    The worst thing the US can do is respond to Putin with caution and restraint.

  6. by islander on March 18, 2022 7:45 am

    I posted the link below several days ago but I think a lot of people missed it. It’s the perfect follow up to The Conversation’s recent article since it shows how Orwellian doublespeak is being used in our own country today, and as we can see...it works here too.

    The line from Orwell in “The Conversation” article is well worth thinking about in these troubled times.

    
“He [Orwell] later reflected on this experience, writing that he was frightened by the “feeling that the very concept of objective truth is fading out of the world.” That prospect, he claimed, frightened him “much more than bombs.”



    pressrun.media

  7. by HatetheSwamp on March 18, 2022 1:39 pm

    “He [Orwell] later reflected on this experience, writing that he was frightened by the “feeling that the very concept of objective truth is fading out of the world.” That prospect, he claimed, frightened him “much more than bombs.”

    isle,

    (BTW, this dialog would have been ideal on the old Philosophy Board. I remember similar discussions back in the day.)

    Orwell is, by this account, profoundly and emotionally moved by the conviction that such a thing as objective truth exists...and that other people continue to believe in it.

    As that brief commentary on subjectivity, which I entered on the other thread suggests, I and many others believe, that fact that truth may be objective is secondary to the understanding that, whatever truth may be, as humans, we engage truth from within, as ourselves.

    I happen to believe in objective truth but I can't see myself being passionate about it, as Orwell was and, apparently, are you, too.

    Can you explain why it would matter so much to Orwell that he'd be so deeply fearful that the concept would die.


  8. by islander on March 18, 2022 3:51 pm
    The big problem with “subjectivity is truth” is this:

    
“At the heart of this mind-set is the idea that there is no such thing as objective truth or even facts, because everything is spun or disguised to reflect advantageously on one group or another,” Vanity Fair noted in a seminal piece from 2017 about Trump’s early embrace of Putin’s propaganda playbook. “This dark internal logic allows for the Kremlin propaganda machine's single greatest achievement: to rub out all distinctions between truth and lies, so that facts, conspiracies, reality, and fabrications are all pulled down into the same indistinguishable muck.”


    The result? The dense fog of unknowability.

    When you say; “I and many others believe, that fact that truth may be objective is secondary to the understanding that, whatever truth may be, as humans, we engage truth from within, as ourselves”.
I don’t know the precise meaning of, “we engage truth from within, as ourselves” or at least I don’t know what you mean by “engage truth” If you are talking about our perceptions, how we perceive things, then of course we ourselves perceive things as a human subject.

    Often times though our perceptions deceive us and our subjective truth conflicts with objective reality and that can sometimes be deadly. I gave you the example of burning heretics and witches.

    This is why striving to come as close to the "truth" (objective reality) as possible is so important.

  9. by HatetheSwamp on March 19, 2022 4:38 am

    Interesting.

    First, two questions.

    1. Have you read, NINETEEN EIGHTY-FOUR? It's profound and stunningly well written.
    2. What do you mean when you write the term, "subjective truth?" You've used it twice. The very notion seems to be an oxymoron to me. Don't think that I believe that such a thing as subjective truth exists.

    Then, comments:

    It seems to me that you're talking about two things, neither, as far as I can tell, have to do with belief in objective truth.

    As far as Putin is concerned, he's engaging in propaganda. Putin is spinning self-serving tales. I seriously doubt that he thinks that Volodymyr Zelensky is a Nazi. I think Putin knows that Zelensky is a Jew. Putin has attempted to keep the Russian people ignorant so they will believe his private narrative justifying his incursion into Ukraine.

    Does this mean that Putin doesn't believe in objective truth? No. What it means is that Putin is self-serving and evil.


    As far as Trump is concerned, I have watched dozens of hours of Trump giving speeches. I suspect that Trump believes in objective truth. But, that's irrelevant to what we're discussing.

    If there's a clear example of what it means for a person to have their own truth, Trump's a fascinating example.

    I'm absolutely convinced, based on hours of listening to Trump speak, something I'm sure you haven’t done, that Trump believes everything he says. It's not that I'm claiming Trump wouldn't lie only that he's not lying at the moment.

    Trump is as interesting an illustration of what "subjectivity is truth" means as there is. Trump engages truth...encounters reality...as a person, as a subject.

    As you know, I despise Trump. I think he's despicable. I think of Trump as a narcissist and a bully.

    Can it be a surprise that, as Trump lives in the world, he filters his perception through his narcissism and need to bully?

    Listen to him speak sometime. As twisted as his perception of reality may be, I can see no reason to think Trump is being disingenuous. Twisted, yes. Misrepresenting his understanding of reality?, absolutely not. Being who he is, this is how Trump honestly perceives reality.

    If you want to know what a politician lying looks like, consider Bill Clinton, who, as far as we know, is still claims to be uncertain about what the meaning of is, is.


    As far as Orwell is concerned, he wrote a novel, a story...

    ...in which, apparently, "Big Brother" redefined "truth," sometimes by the day. Orwell told a story in which belief in objective truth had disappeared.

    This "Orwellian" world resembles Stalin's Russia. Still, I doubt Stalin believed his own propaganda.

  10. by islander on March 19, 2022 6:38 am

    "This "Orwellian" world resembles Stalin's Russia. Still, I doubt Stalin believed his own propaganda."

    Doesn’t matter whether Stalin believed or didn’t believe his own propaganda as long as he could get YOU to believe it and live your life in accord with your beliefs.

    ”First, two questions.
Have you read, NINETEEN EIGHTY-FOUR? It's profound and stunningly well written.What do you mean when you write the term, "subjective truth?" You've used it twice. The very notion seems to be an oxymoron to me. Don't think that I believe that such a thing as subjective truth exists.

    I first read “Nineteen Eighty-Four” in my late teens and again in my mid thirties.

    A subjective truth is something a person, “a subject”, believes to be true based on the person's feelings, opinion, or perspective, but isn’t necessarily true with a capital T. An objective truth is necessarily True because it conforms to reality, what a person feels or believes has no bearing on it. A subjective truth would be what Kierkegaard described when he said ,”truth is subjective”.

    1+1 = 2 is true by definition. How I feel about it, or what my opinion of it is doesn’t change the fact that if we know the definition of 1 and the definition of 2 which is one plus one more, then whether we like it or not, 1+1 will still = 2.

    Can we say that we can know with absolute certainty that any one of our beliefs conforma to reality? No, of course not. Can we say that none of them do? No, of course not. 

There is little or nothing we can know with absolute certainty unless we’re omniscient but what we can do is strive to come as close as possible to knowing and understanding the Truth with a capital T.

    I answered your questions, now can you answer the one I asked you.



    When you say: “ I and many others believe, that fact that truth may be objective is secondary to the understanding that, whatever truth may be, as humans, we engage truth from within, as ourselves”

I don’t know the precise meaning of, “ we engage truth from within, as ourselves” or at least I don’t know what you mean by that. If you are talking about our perceptions, how we perceive things then of course we ourselves perceive things as a human subject. Often times though our perceptions deceive us and our subjective truth conflicts with objective reality, and that can sometimes be deadly. I gave you the example of burning heretics and witches.

    What do you mean by “engage truth from within, as ourselves”. Do you mean something other than what I described?






  11. by HatetheSwamp on March 19, 2022 7:27 am

    Doesn’t matter whether Stalin believed or didn’t believe his own propaganda as long as he could get YOU to believe it and live your life in accord with your beliefs.

    Of course it matters if we're using Big Brother as a reason to mourn the death of the belief in objective truth. If Stalin didn't believe that truth could change by the day then there's nuthin to fear.

    A subjective truth would be what Kierkegaard described when he said ,”truth is subjective”.

    Bullferner.

    ...unless, of course, you can show me an authority beyond yourself.

    As that quote explaining subjectivity in terms of Socrates, makes clear, and as Socrates and Kierkegaard and pb are saying, the notion that subjectivity is truth is, in part, an admission that an individual person can only apprehend in terms of who they are.

    Here's Kierkegaard on your "subjective truth:"He wrote that it is an uncertainty that cannot be solved objectively. The uncertainty is developed throughout the course of a lifetime on a journey that develops a passionate inwardness within the individual.

    1+1 = 2 is true by definition. How I feel about it, or what my opinion of it is doesn’t change the fact that if we know the definition of 1 and the definition of 2 which is one plus one more, then whether we like it or not, 1+1 will still = 2.

    Absurd. Ridiculous. But, I'll go there.

    Try this one, bahahahahahahahahahaha!

    Joe Biden is President. Bahahahahahahahahahaha, ahhhhhhhhhhh!

    What Vladimir Putin feels about it, what his opinion of it, matters. It's killing and maiming thousands of Ukrainians even as speak. Same, potentially, with Xi Jinping and Taiwan.

    What it means to me and what it means to you is very different. And, the difference in who we are DEMANDS that the objective truth that Flatulent Fool, the "...feckless dementia-ridden piece of crap" is President must be different.
    What do you mean by “engage truth from within, as ourselves”. Do you mean something other than what I described?

    What do you mean by “engage truth from within, as ourselves”. Do you mean something other than what I described?

    I mean that you and I engage the objective truth that Joe Biden is President differently because of who we are.

    Subjectivity is our truth.

  12. by islander on March 19, 2022 8:21 am

    I asked; “What do you mean by “engage truth from within, as ourselves”. Do you mean something other than what I described?”

    You replied; ”I mean that you and I engage the objective truth that Joe Biden is President differently because of who we are.

    Subjectivity is our truth.”

    

All you are talking about is how we each feel about Joe Biden. You seem to think that there is something profound about the fact that we each feel differently about him. The only Truth (with a capital T) in that is that it is indeed True that we feel differently about him, if you want to add because of who we are to it that’s fine. Nothing profound or unusual about that.

    Yet you seem to think it’s true that the obvious fact that you and I can feel different about Joe is more important than the fact that he is president, unless you really don’t think that he is president either. The truth as to whether he is or isn’t president would be an objective truth which is more important to me than how you or I feel about him.

 This is why I value and seek objective truth.

    It seems quite obvious that you can dress it up in fancy language, but all your talk about engaging truth from within, and subjectivity is truth, is simply smoke and mirrors, and plain language demonstrates this.

  13. by Donna on March 19, 2022 8:34 am
    Why is pointing out that "subjective truth"( which to me is a synonym for "opinion" ) doesn't change the fact that 1+1=2 "absurd" and "ridiculous", Hts?

  14. by HatetheSwamp on March 19, 2022 8:47 am

    No.

    What I'm saying is that it is who we are that demands what we think about, for instance, "that feckless dementia-ridden piece of crap."

    We both think what we think about the doddering old fool from inside ourselves. It is, in no way, that I am smarter than you. Bahahahahahahahahahaha.

    That subjectivity is truth is probably so simple a description of human existence that you can't accept it.

    You want to be UNDERSTAND MAN. But, in the real world, you go everywhere you are. Your...OUR...tastes, predispositions, inclinations are determinative. Your brain understands only what your heart empowers you to know.

    Who we are always comes first.

    My sense of you is that you want to think you're Mr Spock, but you are pure human. You heart will always lead.

    Subjectivity is what SS is all about. We come here so our subjectivities can interact with each other's.

    I understand that. That explains how I can be so humble while your ilk always ends up in sanctimony. Bahahahahahahahahahaha!

  15. by Donna on March 19, 2022 9:19 am
    I didn't read past "that feckless...". Tired of seeing that. If you're trying to be annoying, you win. Leaving for the time being. Will probably return at some point.

  16. by HatetheSwamp on March 19, 2022 9:42 am

    Bon voyage. I'll always be happy to see you return.

    And,...

    I will always put "that feckless dementia-ridden piece of crap" in quotes as a tribute to Kathy McCollum, her son, Rylee, and the other members of the US military tragically slain as victims of the doddering old fool's brainless withdrawal from Afghanistan.

    And, as much as it annoys, I don't plan to stop...as a memorial, and as a matter of principle.

  17. by islander on March 19, 2022 11:05 am

    Same here, Donna.

    The guy is obviously suffering from some deep seated emotional problems.

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