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Should we establish a no fly zone over Ukraine?

By islander
March 16, 2022 12:52 pm
Category: Politics
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It seems as though for most of us the resounding emotional response is YES!!

But is it really something we should do? "The Conversation" brings up some pretty interesting sides to this question.


Cited and related links:

  1. theconversation.com


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Comments:

  1. by Curt_Anderson on March 16, 2022 1:18 pm
    No Fly Zone is a euphemism for an air war in which combatants shoot down their enemies' planes.

    "Yes" is more heart talking than brain.


  2. by islander on March 16, 2022 1:21 pm

    Curt, My thoughts as well.


  3. by Curt_Anderson on March 16, 2022 1:25 pm
    It may come to that. But if we do get into an air war we should go in with our eyes open and not expect something quick and painless.


  4. by HatetheSwamp on March 16, 2022 1:34 pm

    pb said a long time ago that, as soon as Putin began this movement of troops toward Ukraine, the US should have announced that it is securing the skies over Ukraine and that any Russian attack on a US aircraft would have been regarded as an act of War against the US.

    The Roaring Bear from Delaware didn't do that and Russia flies military aircraft over Ukraine wreaking havoc daily.

    Now, for the US to attempt to secure Ukrainian air space would, legitimately, be regarded as an act of aggression by Russia.

    So, no. Not any longer.


  5. by Curt_Anderson on March 16, 2022 1:44 pm
    As I said, advocating for NFZ isn't the brain talking.


  6. by islander on March 16, 2022 2:13 pm

    "pb said a long time ago that, as soon as Putin began this movement of troops toward Ukraine, the US should have announced that it is securing the skies over Ukraine"

    How exactly would you establish a no fly zone over Ukraine now or before Russia moved its troops toward Ukraine?

    "Russia has also launched most of its air attacks on Ukraine from Russian airspace, not from over Ukraine. Because Russian aircraft shoot long-range missiles over the border, even a no-fly zone over the entirety of Ukraine would not stop these attacks." *

    * The Conversation


  7. by HatetheSwamp on March 16, 2022 2:42 pm

    Way back when, at the same time pb was calling for a preemptive no fly zone, pb was also saying that Ukraine should have been fortified with, pb said, a $billion of weaponry, on the order of what "that feckless dementia-ridden piece of crap" agreed to today.

    The fault in your argument is in assuming that Putin would have ever attacked Ukraine. If the Roaring Bear from Delaware had been proactive, this would never have happened.


  8. by islander on March 16, 2022 3:27 pm

    First, what about establishing the no fly zone you wanted? You haven’t told us how you’d do that yet.

    Second, we obviously had been and are supplying Ukraine with money weapons and aid, and Zelensky is using it to successfully fight off the Russian military.

    We’re going to continue to do this as the president said today while we and the rest of the world cripple Russia’s economy.



    Biden, NATO, and our allies are doing a masterful job...Something you obviously will not and cannot admit. And it's and something your hero Trump could never have accomplished.





  9. by islander on March 16, 2022 3:34 pm

    Curt, I too think it possible that we “might” have to get into an air war and who knows what will follow after that. But right now, I think we and our allies are playing our cards right !!! 



  10. by HatetheSwamp on March 16, 2022 3:45 pm

    First, what about establishing the no fly zone you wanted? You haven’t told us how you’d do that yet.

    Unless I'm not understanding you, I did say how I'd do it, so splain.

    Second, we obviously had been and are supplying Ukraine with money weapons and aid, and Zelensky is using it to successfully fight off the Russian military.

    We’re going to continue to do this as the president said today while we and the rest of the world cripple Russia’s economy.



    Biden, NATO, and our allies are doing a masterful job...Something you obviously will not and cannot admit. And it's and something your hero Trump could never have accomplished.


    But, imagine if we'd prevented the Russian attack.

    Back in the day, I said that every Ukrainian death and all the suffering would be on Joe's hand. It is.


  11. by Donna on March 16, 2022 4:00 pm
    As I reminded Hts a couple of days ago, Russia has had its military positioned on its border with Ukraine since 2014. In fact Russia has been providing separatists in Ukraine with material support in the Donbas region since 2014. Earlier in 2014, Russia annexed Crimea, which is part of Ukraine. So the Russian military has actually been stationed inside of Ukraine since 2014.

    Establishing a NFZ in Ukraine at any time, whether that be now, back in 2014, or last year when Russia started amassing MORE of its military on its border with Ukraine probably wouldn't have stopped Putin from invading Ukraine (again) a few weeks ago. And the moment NATO or the US fired a missile at a Russian MiG would have initiated either a NATO-Russian or a US-Russian war.

    It's easy for us to sit in the comfort of our homes (or in our motel or car while on vacation) and say how we would handle the situation when there are no consequences to our suggestions. As much as I post on social media that I'd like to see NATO or the US directly confront Russia militarily, I think if I were president of the US, with the continuance of human civilization at stake, I wouldn't be so quick to order that and I might not order it at all.


  12. by HatetheSwamp on March 16, 2022 4:32 pm

    As I reminded Hts a couple of days ago, Russia has had its military positioned on its border with Ukraine since 2014.

    As I have repeated, I'm referring to this huuuuuuuuuge movement of troops that bore fruit in these present atrocities.


  13. by Donna on March 16, 2022 4:40 pm
    What you suggested would have been adamantly opposed by both political parties.


  14. by islander on March 16, 2022 5:11 pm

    First, what about establishing the no fly zone you wanted? You haven’t told us how you’d do that yet.

    "Unless I'm not understanding you, I did say how I'd do it, so splain."

    You never explained how you’d do it, you’ve just been saying you would have established a no fly zone.

    Since Russia has launched most of its air attacks on Ukraine from Russian airspace, not from over Ukraine, Russian aircraft shoot long-range missiles over the border, would your no fly zone rules allow that? If not how would you stop it? What would your no fly zone response be if those missiles downed one or more of our aircraft ? Would NATO have to agree to your no fly zone first or would you do it with or without them?


  15. by HatetheSwamp on March 17, 2022 6:00 am

    How would I do it?

    Huh!

    With jets! new.


    isle,

    You're suggesting that pb's idea that there'd be a no fly zone is something he came up with in a moment that his tin foul cap fell off. You do know that Zelensky is asking for one and that many of our allies would do it but are afraid that Putin would go bonkers if we did it? Ain't? pb's not the only one who's expressed the idea.

    Having said that, pb's been clear. He no longer supports creating a nfz.


  16. by islander on March 17, 2022 6:55 am

    Nope! Never suggested that establishing a no fly zone is something you alone came up with. Foolish of you to imagine something so absurd.

    You stated that establishing a no fly zone was something Biden should have done. I asked you how "you’d" go about establishing it, you replied that you’d already explained it so I asked you some specific questions as to how you’d have gone about it. You couldn’t answer them.

    

At any rate, I’m glad to hear pb no longer supports a NFZ. I hope you’ll gain a better understanding of the difficulties and drawback to establishing a NFZ and follow pb’s lead.



  17. by HatetheSwamp on March 17, 2022 7:07 am

    Your questions haven't been as clear as you seem to think. Clearly, you don't UNDERSTAND. Bahahahahahahahahahaha.

    What pb said, long ago, is that the US would have enforced the no fly zone from military bases in Europe and from our considerable navy presence in the Black Sea.

    Naval presence in Mediterranean and Black seas at highs rarely seen since Cold War

    stripes.com


  18. by islander on March 17, 2022 7:12 am
    Too vague...That's why you can't answer the specific questions I asked you as to how you'd go about establishing that NFZ.


  19. by HatetheSwamp on March 17, 2022 7:22 am

    isle,

    If there's an international award for strawmanizing give pb a heads-up. He will nominate you.

    Read my, uh, keystrokes!

    pb doesn't support a no fly zone over Ukraine.




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