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My Antediluvian Dilemma
By Ponderer
November 25, 2025 8:42 am
Category: History
(0.0 from 0 votes)
Rules of the Post & Tips.

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I have gone down the rabbit hole. My curiosity got the better of me, and I am deep down who knows how many miles now.

And there is no going back.

Given all I have seen in all my "research" to date, I am now of the firm belief that a gob-smackingly advanced civilization existed all over this planet in deep prehistory that it is impossible for modern humans to even begin to comprehend. And on a tangential note, I also believe that the knowledge of said civilization has been systematically hidden from the rest of humanity for millennia, all the way up until this very day.

This may seem like mere speculation, but I am only going by the massive, existentially flabbergasting evidence that literally spans the whole world. If you just look at it and really think about it.

No, they haven't found ruins of ancient skyscrapers full of broken quantum computers and flying cars and spaceships (put a pin in that last one). But what has been found is verifiably and confoundingly astounding, nonetheless. Impossible to believe, but there it is.

Surprisingly, this unimaginable evidence essentially consists of nothing but rock. Rocks too immense to ever have been moved, but they were moved. Rocks carved with mysterious technology and with such inhuman precision that they baffle all modern experts.

Gargantuan rocks carved to such precision that they fit together like they were molded together, but they weren't, in gigantic megalithic constructions created for some absolutely baffling purpose.

Granite and other rocks of the hardest density carved into jars and vessels (tens of thousands of them even found buried deep below Egypt's oldest pyramid) with such precision and with such complex geometries that even today's 5-axis, computer driven machinery Can Not Duplicate. Precision that can't even be determined without the use of 3D scanning laser technology that has only recently come into existence.

Granite blocks weighing as much as a hundred tons in the Serapeum that were carved into "sarcophagi" (that a VW Beetle would fit in) with lids of many tons... all carved to a precise geometry and flatness and smoothness that for all intents and purposes is perfect.

Carvings of ancient god-like figures holding the same curious implements carved into walls of temples all around the same time many millennia ago... found all over the world. From Egypt to Mayan ruins... even at Gobekli Tepe, the oldest known and only recently discovered monolithic structure in the world. It is about 12,000 years old. From the time of the very end of the Younger Dryas period that came at the end of the last ice age. Do a google image search for "ancient handbag and pinecone".'

Caves carved out solid granite outcrops, the Barabar Caves in India, that were already ancient when a King carved his lame graffiti into them over 2,000 years ago. Caves of such astronomically astounding precision and complex geometry down to the fraction of a millimeter that it would take modern humans using advanced computers to even design them, let alone transfer those designs to perfection out of solid granite. Somehow. These things completely and totally floored me.

Vast megalithic constructions of a specific style that seem like they were specifically intended to confound future generations, found All Over the World. There is even an ancient construction of this exact style on Easter Island for Pete's sake!

Mysterious marks left on huge unfinished obelisks and at other sites in Egypt and other areas of the world that hint at techniques that must have been used... but cannot be explained using rocks and copper chisels.

I'm just sorry, but these things were not made by banging rocks with harder rocks and copper chisels. Much as modern Egyptologists and Mainstream Archeologists insist on asserting that they were.


And something that has really pushed me over the edge in just the last couple days that I never knew anything about: The rediscovery of the ancient Egyptian Labyrinth.

Written about by some of the most ancient of historians who actually visited it and were stupefied by its impossible grandeur, which they said dwarfs the accomplishments of ancient Greece and the pyramids. A vast underground complex dug deep into the granite bedrock that one ancient historian said the famous labyrinth of Crete had to have been patterned after. That site was already a ruin in his time and he said had to have been less than a 1/100th of the Egyptian Labyrinth in scale. This labyrinth was said to have twelve huge courts with dozens of huge pillars in each of them. There were hundreds of rooms and tunnels connected to them leading in all different directions and on several different levels. His guides, who he said were essential lest lest he become terminally lost, told him that they went back around 3,500 years. A time before the pharaonic dynasties that later built many of their sites on top of these more ancient constructions on in far inferior workmanship.

An explorer in the 1800's actually found the entrance to it at the base of the pyramid that partially covers it (which those ancient historians talked about), but the water table had risen to where he could only get partially into the first couple chambers before mud and water stopped him. You can still see this entrance, but with the Aswan High Dam further messing with the water table, you can only go into the sloping entrance a couple dozen meters before you are stopped by water. Out on the surface, this explorer dug down to what he thought was the foundation of the labyrinth and figured that everything on top of it had been quarried away millennia ago. He measured it out to be about 1,000 by 800 feet. You could fit over five Temples of Luxor on such a footprint.

But what he had discovered was actually the roof of the thing.

Modern techniques like ground penetrating radar and even new satellite imagery techniques have been used to probe the site and, in every instance, evidence of vast underground voids and thick granite walls have been exposed. The thing is there. It exists. It's undeniable at this point. One of these techniques was used that can actually "see" dozens of meters into the Earth and has been used to find mineral deposits, aquifers, and even gold. It can tell exactly what kind of rock is where and it even found the only metal on the whole site. It's around 40 meters long and is cylindrical in shape and sort of... I'm sorry, but this is what they said... tic-tac shaped. Remember that pin I mentioned at the beginning? But again, the water table is a tremendous barrier to accessing it today.

Not that you'd be allowed to anyway. The Egyptian archeologic hierarchy of He-Who-Shall-Not-Be-Named has put the kibosh on a great deal of excavation and technological analysis of many sites there that I have mentioned. He is married to the idea that Egypt was the cradle of civilization, and he is loathe to allow anyone to discover anything different.

I have been watching a great deal of the work of Graham Hancock, whose explorations into evidence of ancient, pre-ice age civilizations have made a great deal of logical sense to me. I highly recommend his series on Netflix "Ancient Apocalypse". He is generally scoffed at by the archeologic community as crazy and unscientific, but when you actually listen to him and grok what he is discovering, the likelihood of a highly advanced, pre-flood, Ice Age civilization is pretty much impossible to deny. His work flies in the face of the mainstream archeology's deeply held convictions of the timeline of civilization, like with that Egyptian guy, and they don't want everything that they have studied and stood by and written about to be dashed to pieces by emerging realities.

I have also recently found a Youtube Channel called UnchartedX. Ben van Kerkwyk's work is voluminous and gets incredibly technical in detailing the realities of impossible sites and objects from all over the world. He is also a friend of Graham Handcock and they have made many trips together. His vast library of videos into these mysteries is an absolute treasure. I highly recommend it.

Mainstream Archeology is fond of declaring that Hancock and others have no evidence to support their theories of ancient civilizations before known history. But that is mainly because they are so existentially invested in not looking at it. It's all over the place. We only need to be open to discovering what there is yet to discover.


Comments Start Below


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Comments on "My Antediluvian Dilemma ":

  1. by HatetheSwamp on November 25, 2025 8:50 am

    Wow, po.

    You'll undoubtedly be heartened to know that there are some 7-24-hour-days Christian Fundamentalist Creationists who share the essence of your belief.


  2. by HatetheSwamp on November 25, 2025 8:56 am

    On another note, Clive Cussler's Dirk Pitt novel, ATLANTIS FOUND, plays around with your idea as it's premise. It's my favorite Cussler read.

    amazon.com


  3. by Ponderer on November 25, 2025 8:57 am

    pb, are you by any chance familiar with any of the work of Paul Wallis?


  4. by HatetheSwamp on November 25, 2025 9:00 am

    I am not. But, I'll AI it for, at least, an introduction.


  5. by Ponderer on November 25, 2025 9:11 am

    He really gets into the pre-Biblical history that much of the Bible was based on and is extremely knowledgeable of ancient civilizations, beings of which are mentioned in the Old Testament. Nephilim and the like. He really gets into who these beings were and what they represented.

    The illustrations that accompany most of his videos are a bit over the top, but the basic data he presents is tremendously enlightening.

    It's weird that he doesn't have a Wikipedia page, but here's a link to his channel and videos...
    youtube.com


  6. by HatetheSwamp on November 25, 2025 9:25 am

    Just curious. What do you mean by "pre-Biblical history?"


  7. by Ponderer on November 25, 2025 9:59 am

    The last ice age lasted over two million years and ended around 11,700 years ago. At that time a period known as the Younger Dryas Period began around 12,900 years ago and lasted to around 11,700 years ago. Hmmm.

    There is considerable geologic evidence that the global event that started the Younger Dryas period at the end of the last ice age was from a tremendous amount of sudden cometary destruction with results that were catastrophic all over the world. The majority of that ice that had been held in glaciers that covered a great deal of the planet all the way south to upper North America was released over a relatively short period of time and in fact, the sea level rose over 400 feet pretty damned quickly. Any previous civilizations that might have been on any coast in the world back then would have been destroyed by... you guessed it... a flood. It seems possible to me that such a cometary bombardment may have even initially caused devastating tsunamis hundreds of feet high around the world even before the glacial melt off, which this bombardment may well have initiated.

    The 1,200 years of the Younger Dryas was a time of tremendous cold, likely to my mind from the atmosphere being blackened by the cometary bombardment, and this is the time when huge swaths of entire species were wiped out all over Earth. Humanity itself may have well been reduced to just a million or so, if that many.

    And to hear mainstream archeologists tell of it, this when the Younger Dryas period ended, around 12,000 years ago and is when supposedly a few scraggly hunter/gatherers came out of their caves and suddenly invented agriculture and civilization and monumental stone works and cities. All over the entire planet.

    Pretty much every civilization on Earth has "myths and legends" going back to their earliest history of a great catastrophe of some kind, a flood or fire from the sky or some such that survivors had to reconstruct their societies... with the help of incredible god-like beings that arrived from the sky or from across the oceans and taught them the secrets of agriculture and medicine and building techniques. The Old Testament comes to mind and even speaks of such beings. And such legends go back even farther than that.

    We all in our modern superiority laughed at these "myths" as nonsense that was simply made-up stories to tell around a campfire.

    But what if they weren't just legends? What if a cadre of survivors from that advanced civilization, still with the knowledge and even some of the technology they still had some of, took it upon themselves to traverse the world, looking for survivors to impart their knowledge onto and help rebuild human civilization? How would such beings, who could still be just as human as us, appear to the primitive populations back then? These beings who came to help them build their societies from the sky.

    What if it all the legends were essentially true? What if a global catastrophe obliterated the vast majority of humanity, including these highly advanced civilizations I speak of, around 13,000 years ago, driving survivors into caves and even entire underground cities (see: the underground cities of Cappadocia) that had been prepared in advance by this highly advanced civilization that could see what was coming?

    Yes, this is all just speculation. But it is all speculation that in my mind makes a tremendous amount of sense to me.


  8. by HatetheSwamp on November 25, 2025 10:19 am

    "We all in our modern superiority laughed at these "myths" as nonsense that was simply made-up stories to tell around a campfire."

    I dunno about ALL.

    Those fundamentalists I mentioned have respected ancient "myths" for a century and a half.

    As I've pointed out several times here in the past, primarily to be scoffed at,...

    Fundamentalism began as a theological movement at Princeton.


  9. by Ponderer on November 25, 2025 10:44 am

    Okay...


  10. by Indy! on November 25, 2025 10:59 am

    Somebody's been watching Ancient Aliens on the History Channel again. 🙂


  11. by Ponderer on November 25, 2025 2:04 pm

    Nah. That show is mostly schlock. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone who is seriously interested in the topic of UAP.

    The beauty part of what I have been talking about in this thread is that is doesn't rely on "aliens" as having been responsible for any of it.


  12. by HatetheSwamp on November 25, 2025 2:32 pm

    po,

    I don't think I've ever noted you respecting the knowledge, understanding and intellect of those who less than fully accede to your whims. Guess you continue to be consistent.


  13. by meagain on November 25, 2025 2:57 pm
    Actually, Pondy, the impact theory has been all but discounted by scientists. Of the twelve indicators, I think it was seven, have been definitely disproved. The accepted science is a warming episode that melted some of the Laurentian Atlantic ice sheet. Mostly from a huge lake, Lake Aggasiz, that then burst its banks and flooded the Atlantic sheet with warmer water.


  14. by Ponderer on November 26, 2025 3:07 am

    I'd love to see the data from those scientists, meagain. As I mentioned in my opening piece, I'm aware that the mainstream scientific/archeologic community discounts many of these theories. But I have seen these theories explain quite a lot, given the evidence that they can site to support them, while many of the mainstream propositions refuting these theories remain speculative.

    And in any event, whatever actually happened to cause the Younger Dryas period to begin and result in the sea level rising hundreds of feet has nothing to do with any of the theories about any highly advanced ancient civilizations responsible for the objects and places that I spoke about in my opening post.


  15. by Ponderer on November 26, 2025 3:10 am

    For me, there's a lot of Occam's Razor going on here.


  16. by Navy2711 on November 26, 2025 3:59 pm

    Ponderer,

    "But that is mainly because [mainstream archaeology] are so existentially invested in not looking at it."

    Does that apply to other disciplines?

    Are geologists existentially invested in not looking at evidence that the Earth is flat?

    Are historians existentially invested in not looking at evidence that the Holocaust never happened?

    Are climatologists existentially invested in not looking at evidence against global warming?

    Or is it just "mainstream archaeology"?


  17. by Donna on November 26, 2025 9:58 pm

    No, it doesn't.

    You should actually watch these documentaries before getting all snarky.

    Archeology is going through a sort of reset, and much of it has to do with LIDAR, which is revolutionizing the science.


  18. by Navy2711 on November 27, 2025 11:14 am

    Donna and Ponderer,

    1. You referenced Occam's Razor ...

    Nothing's perfect of course, and there's always room for human error, bias and corruption. But generally speaking: "mainstream" archaeologists are trained scientist who spend years studying human history, learning the methods, languages, and evidence standards of the field, and whose work is constantly checked, corrected, and refined by the larger academic community. What does Occam have to say about the overwhelming majority of these people disagreeing with your ancient technology ideas? What does Occam have to say about ancient technology theorists being shunned by academia and being relegated to social media?

    Is it fair to dismiss all of that with, "THEY'RE all suffering from status quo bias, authority bias and groupthink, and WE are the open-minded ones."

    2. This is actually the more important question that I'd like to ask: After you spent some time in the ancient technology rabbit hole, did you then intentionally force yourself to spend some time looking at countering ideas, and actively trying to debunk ancient technology theories? Please start with a "yes" or a "no" and then elaborate all you'd like.


  19. by meagain on November 27, 2025 12:34 pm
    What caused the Younger Dryas to begin is n mystery. It was natural as the deglaciation was underway and the Laurentide Ice Sheet started to melt. The deglaciation itself was a Milankovitch cycle event that led to increasing CO2 in the atmosphere.


  20. by meagain on November 27, 2025 12:37 pm
    The cooling from the overflow was so great that it caused the AMOC - Gulf Stream to stop. That drastically cooled the Northern Hemisphere. As it gradually warmed, the AMOC resumed and the global warming and ice melt continued.


  21. by Ponderer on November 28, 2025 6:20 am

    "What does Occam have to say about the overwhelming majority of these people disagreeing with your ancient technology ideas?" -Navy

    Occam's razor, from how it applies in this case, deals with the likelihoods of different explanations for certain occurrences. And when considering different theories in this case, the simplest one should generally the most likely to be the correct one. Right.

    Given that the two conflicting theories are between the "ancient technology ideas" that I have been following, and the mainstream theories of "They pounded rocks with harder rocks and copper chisels ideas", the simpler one to me is that they used some form of technology to achieve the results that they got by means of a technology that is far beyond our current understanding.

    Yeah, if you hit a stone with a harder stone or with or with copper implements, the softer stone shatters a tiny bit. And this is in fact what the dynastic Egyptians did to build a great many of their temples and mega structures... on top of the apparently far older and completely different structures that I and others like Graham Hancock are focusing on.

    You are simply never going to achieve the results that we can still see to this day by the means that mainstream archeology insists were used. It's like saying that the Mona Lisa was painted using a paint roller. Yeah, a paint roller applies paint to a surface, and this can be demonstrated. But I'd love to see anyone demonstrate how a paint roller can achieve such detailed perfection as the Mona Lisa presents on a canvas with one. (This analogy is entirely mine, btw.)


    So, essentially, the two competing theories are:

    A. Ancients used completely unknown forms of energy and technology to make it possible to create these baffling structures, aligning with the evidence observable to this day.

    B. Ancients used hard rocks and copper tools to create these baffling structures with, in ways that conflict with observable evidence and with which it is simply not possible to achieve the results that we can still see to this day.


    For my money, Occam's Razor favors "A".


  22. by HatetheSwamp on November 28, 2025 6:34 am

    A truth that is compelling to pb from this dialog, is that science functions among you as a religion,... i.e., a system of beliefs... in much the same way as the truths contained in the Bible energizes Christian fundamentalists.

    It's soooooooo fun to watch.


  23. by HatetheSwamp on November 28, 2025 6:42 am

    Actually, I returned to this thread to quote, and reflect on, this comment from po:

    "We all in our modern superiority laughed at these "myths" as nonsense that was simply made-up stories to tell around a campfire."

    It's the "modern superiority" notion that impresses me.

    Preach it, po. Just know that "modern superiority" is the foundation of the woke sanctimony pb's been mocking here for years. If you can repent of yours, we may find common ground.


  24. by Ponderer on November 28, 2025 11:02 am

    "A truth that is compelling to pb from this dialog, is that science functions among you as a religion,... i.e., a system of beliefs... in much the same way as the truths contained in the Bible energizes Christian fundamentalists." -pedophile's bitch

    I've already gone on until I'm blue in the fingers about your incapability in making equitable comparisons, so we'll ignore this glaring aspect of your post for now.

    But suffice to say, no, science doesn't function that way for me or a great many scientists. It's not supposed to. But granted, some scientists and archeologists can treat their particular areas of study as if they were a religion (see: Zahi Hawass), but this is not what science or archeology are actually supposed to be about. Science only moves forward when it is open to being wrong, if evidence comes along that indicates it very well may be. The same should be true for archeology.


    As far as my "modern superiority" comment I made, I am referring to the way that many if not close to all people, scientists, and archeologists believe that the current level of technological achievement represents the highest level ever attained in human history. And that since The Ancients didn't have computers or lunar landers or internet or decaffeinated coffee, they were obviously far more inferior to us in their level of technological achievement. And as evidence for this idea, they like to remind us that all they had back then... that we know of... were harder rocks and copper tools. (Plus, kings from a couple two or three millennia ago carved their names on these things, so they must have built them. Even though they never claimed they did in almost all cases.)

    This of course depends tremendously on what one is considering a high level of technical achievement. Does a high level of technological achievement have to mean wires and batteries and maglev trains and radioactive isotopes being manipulated in complex machinery...?

    Or could an antediluvian technique of working granite that results in it apparently being worked like it was Styrofoam cut with a hot wire also be considered a form of highly advanced technology? However the hell they actually managed it?

    In 50,000 years, when some visiting scientists from another galaxy or something come along and find almost no evidence that our "highly technologically advanced" societies of today even existed (except maybe for a very thin layer of fine hydrocarbon polymer particles found in the sediment all over the world), yet these perfectly carved, 1,000-ton granite blocks are still sitting there, begging explanation... Who do you think those visiting intergalactic archeologists are going to think had reached the highest level of technological achievement on this planet?

    Seeing the 3D scanning evidence of what something like the Barabar Caves in India actually are, especially the Sudama Cave, even with my simple and basic understanding of engineering and material manipulation are presenting me with a mystery that is just as flabbergasting as if they had dug up a 12,000-year-old fully functioning MRI machine.

    Modern techniques like LIDAR are constantly finding whole new massive cities and roads in the Amazon just in the last few years. Cities that have been buried under jungle that could have supported upwards of a million people each. And they are turning up practically everywhere they look in the Amazon Basin. Even cities that they were aware of are turning out to be far more immense than they ever imagined they were by many factors.

    Until very recently, mainstream archeology has totally dismissed the notion that the Amazon could have ever supported such populations. It's nothing but jungle after all. But the new evidence is making them reconsider their preconceived notions.

    Heck, I remember in elementary school how Plate Tectonics was presented to us as still just a theory that all of science hadn't fully accepted yet. It's a No DUH! kinda thing now.


    If anyone is serious about continuing this discussion in depth which I am happy to do, I would very much like to recommend watching this video to them when they have a spare couple of hours. I've already watched this thing at least three times now myself, and I just get more and more perplexed every time I see it. That Sudama Cave is what set me off down this road to begin with.


  25. by Ponderer on November 28, 2025 11:06 am

    Let's see if this works...
    View Video


  26. by Indy! on November 28, 2025 11:06 am

    "A truth that is compelling to pb from this dialog, is that science functions among you as a religion,... i.e., a system of beliefs... in much the same way as the truths contained in the Bible energizes Christian fundamentalists." -pedophile's bitch


    😂 This is how religious nuts try to convince themselves that their fairy tales carry the same amount of weight as actual science. Much in the same way Brown Shorts tries to convince us that his "perception" of things is actually reality. Stupid is as stupid does.


  27. by Ponderer on November 28, 2025 11:26 am

    Indy!, we see the same technique used by MAGA Hats to try to equate their preposterous notions with reality.

    "Well, we just have differing opinions...", says the MAGA Hat to me.

    "Yes, we certainly do." I say. "It's just that our opinion actually comports with observable reality is all."


  28. by Ponderer on November 28, 2025 12:06 pm

    But, I guess there are a lot of other threads that deal with such topics. I shall endeavor to stay on topic from here on.


  29. by Indy! on November 28, 2025 12:34 pm

    Pondy -

    Watched a few minutes of the video - definitely intrigued enough to watch the whole thing when I have a chance. Thanks!


  30. by Ponderer on November 28, 2025 3:13 pm

    Fair enough, Indy! I look forward to any serious take on it.


  31. by Ponderer on November 28, 2025 3:30 pm

    Up for it, Navy...?


  32. by Ponderer on November 30, 2025 5:51 am

    😢


  33. by Ponderer on November 30, 2025 6:01 am

    As part of this topic, I was curious as to what pedophile's bitch makes of all the writings of pre-Biblical civilizations that a great deal of the Old Testament appears to have been based on.

    For me, the whole idea of a global flood in the Bible had always struck me as an apocryphal tale made up to illustrate a point. But as I got more and more into what previous civilizations had to say on the subject and that such stories of ancient apocalypses can be found in the histories and legends from all over the world, bolstered by recent geologic discoveries, it appears entirely likely to me that such a catastrophe did in fact befall humanity a very long time ago.

    And that the assemblers of the Old Testament stories were sort of modernizing much older historical stories that at the time people of the region may have long been already somewhat acquainted with.


  34. by Ponderer on November 30, 2025 6:03 am

    Again, I'd like to give credit to Paul Wallis. A scholar of ancient civilizations and languages.


  35. by HatetheSwamp on November 30, 2025 6:37 am

    "As part of this topic, I was curious as to what pedophile's bitch makes of all the writings of pre-Biblical civilizations that a great deal of the Old Testament appears to have been based on."

    I haven't been following. Saturday was Rivalry Day in NCAAF. I was all about Clemson, Penn Station and Vanderbilt/Tennessee.

    But, po. I aksed already. Genesis 1 says, "In the beginning, God..." What is a pre-Biblical civilization?


  36. by Ponderer on November 30, 2025 6:43 am

    pb, I would dearly like to get your feedback on at least the first eight and a half minutes of this Paul Wallis video.

    I hadn't even seen this one before, but I think it's a perfect primer of what I'm talking about here. As a seminarian, I'm sure that you could understand and appreciate the things Paul is talking about far better than I can.

    I'm gonna watch the rest of this now...
    View Video


  37. by HatetheSwamp on November 30, 2025 8:02 am

    po,

    George Noory!!!!!?

    In the first 20 seconds? C'mon man. Gimme a break!

    BTW, THE NEW JERUSALEM BIBLE is Roman Catholic. So, even they are into this.

    Wallis' unnecessary fundamentalist-phobia emerges at 8:00.


    I have very little difficulty with those first 8 1/2 minutes apart from his unnecessary judgment on fundamentalists...

    ....but, my views about the Bible are not typical either of fundamentalists nor evangelicals... nor the MAGAs whom you seem to believe are, somehow, the root of every contemporary evil. Baha.


  38. by Ponderer on November 30, 2025 8:49 am

    "BTW, THE NEW JERUSALEM BIBLE is Roman Catholic. So, even they are into this." -pb

    Into what? Into the idea that there were previous, more ancient civilizations' writings that a great many stories in the Old Testament were apparently essentially based on?

    I don't think much of Von Daniken or Loeb. But I saw no need for their endorsements to predetermine anything about Wallis's narrative.


    "Wallis' unnecessary fundamentalist-phobia" -pb

    I've rewatched that part a few times now. I can't see anything in any of what he said to equate any of it to a "phobia" he has against fundamentalism. He points out that it is rather set in its ways, as it certainly is, and is perhaps itself as a scholarly discipline "phobic" about the things he has gained knowledge about. But other than simply projecting that phobia onto him, I'm not sure where that came from. Can you elaborate?


    "....but, my views about the Bible are not typical either of fundamentalists nor evangelicals... nor the MAGAs whom you seem to believe are, somehow, the root of every contemporary evil. Baha." -pb

    It is encouraging to me, though antagonistic to my thesis, that you are able to equate those three things in a way that a great many non-conservative people also can.


  39. by HatetheSwamp on November 30, 2025 8:52 am

    "Into what? Into the idea that there were previous, more ancient civilizations' writings that a great many stories in the Old Testament were apparently essentially based on?"

    I believe that you missed Wallis' point. All the ancient stories, including the Bible, are derived from the same ancient stories.


  40. by HatetheSwamp on November 30, 2025 8:55 am

    "I've rewatched that part a few times now. I can't see anything in any of what he said to equate any of it to a "phobia" he has against fundamentalism."

    You wouldn't. It's that, preferences and prejudices that we bring to every moment of our lives, thing.


  41. by Ponderer on November 30, 2025 8:57 am

    "I believe that you missed Wallis' point. All the ancient stories, including the Bible, are derived from the same ancient stories." -pb

    I didn't miss it at all. That is certainly of course his obvious point: The stories of the Bible and those of more ancient civilizations are all talking about the same things. The same events. But not necessarily the same relationships owing to different readings of the original texts. How did I miss any of that?


  42. by HatetheSwamp on November 30, 2025 9:02 am

    "The stories of the Bible and those of more ancient civilizations are all talking about the same things."

    How are they more ancient?


  43. by Indy! on November 30, 2025 9:07 am

    The Christian story says everything began 6000 years ago.


  44. by HatetheSwamp on November 30, 2025 9:08 am

    Really, Indy, I'd love to see a link to that from a TRUSTWORTHY source.


  45. by Ponderer on November 30, 2025 10:02 am

    "How are they more ancient?" -pb

    In that they came well before the times of the already ancient to us civilization that brought about the texts we know as the "Bible".


  46. by Ponderer on November 30, 2025 10:07 am

    "The Christian story says everything began 6000 years ago." -Indy!

    Indeed, though this is not a figure that the Christian story" asserts, a lot of fundamentalist Christians who hold very strictly to an absolutely literal account of the Genesis creation story, or "Creationists", have proponents who have landed on a time around 6,000 or so years as the age of the entire Universe. It was all created over a literal week about that long ago.


  47. by Indy! on November 30, 2025 10:27 am

    Right Pondy, which makes Brown Shorts' request moot because obviously there is no "trustworthy" sources available when it comes to fairy tales.


  48. by Ponderer on November 30, 2025 10:33 am

    I don't believe that Literalist Creationists on that level actually make up a very large part of Christians today.

    Apart, of course, from operators of regional tourist attractions...


  49. by Navy2711 on November 30, 2025 11:07 am

    Ponderer,

    "Up for it?"

    No. Your avoidance of my points, and your attribution bias about mainstream archaeologists, are red flags.


  50. by Ponderer on November 30, 2025 11:25 am

    Navy, I'm up to looking at whatever disciplines and countering ideas that you care to suggest I check out. I have looked at and been exposed to a lot of the them. You can't delve into history and archaeology very deeply without doing so. I haven't condemned any discipline that I know of in any part of this thread, so I'm taken a bit abback by the tone of hostility that I'm getting.


    "Is it fair to dismiss all of that with, "THEY'RE all suffering from status quo bias, authority bias and groupthink, and WE are the open-minded ones."" -Navy

    Again, I don't believe I am dismissing anyone by simply pointing out relevant evidence that they are ignoring, for whatever reasons they are ignoring it.



    Is it fair for those you are championing to ignore objective, real world facts and evidence that they can in no way explain or demonstrate with their theories while besmirching anyone else with a different theory that does something of a good job to explain many of these things, just because it conflicts with their theory?





  51. by oldedude on November 30, 2025 11:32 am
    po- It was all created over a literal week about that long ago.
    Not a fight here. This is oft brought up to mock Christianity. I understand that, and I don't think you said it like that. My question to you and concha is;
    "How long is God's day?" And can you show the relationship between our day and the time it took to build the system. Genesis to me, is a book of faith that a supreme being that I call God, built it. Since no one was around to prove or disprove it. Later on in the Old Testament are the stories of testing Faith, and what happens if you screw up. Also needed for faith. This is where the Laws of Israel were set out in different stages.

    Back to Genisis. Referencing the creation. For the people that take the Bible literally to disprove the "Bible." To them, I challenge them to show me how things like the "Big Bang theory could exist without a maker. Where did the matter come from? How did it get here without being created?

    Just a couple of things. It seems most folks are willing to discuss here, so I'm adding my two cents.


  52. by Donna on November 30, 2025 11:41 am

    I lean towards the idea that the cosmos has always existed.





  53. by HatetheSwamp on November 30, 2025 11:53 am

    "How are they more ancient?" -pb

    In that they came well before the times of the already ancient to us civilization that brought about the texts we know as the "Bible"."

    I don't think they are a bit more ancient. Those civilizations were lost to history, for sure. But, how can they be more ancient?


  54. by Donna on November 30, 2025 11:56 am

    They're much older.


  55. by Indy! on November 30, 2025 12:01 pm

    Faith is the politically correct word for superstition.

    So far as which came first - god or the big bang - does it matter? Neither one's origin can be explained.

    Hello. 🙂


  56. by Navy2711 on November 30, 2025 12:15 pm

    Ponderer,

    1. "the tone of hostility that I'm getting."

    No hostility. I'm asking perfectly valid questions, the same questions that you would HOPEFULLY ask of anyone presenting a non-mainstream idea. You and Donna are interpreting that as snark.

    2. "Navy, I'm up to looking at whatever disciplines and countering ideas that you care to suggest I check out."

    I'm not offering to play a role. I'm asking if you, as someone who, I would think, views themselves as a critical thinker, has taken the necessary step to seek out countering ideas? It's sound like it's a "no".

    3. "Again, I don't believe I am dismissing anyone by simply pointing out relevant evidence that they are ignoring"

    a. You're not? What should I take from the fact that you label them as, "existentially invested in not looking at [the evidence]"?

    b. If you haven't sought to debunk these alternate theories that you're pursuing, then you don't KNOW what they are ignoring ... unless you are simply taking your YouTuber at his word.

    4. "Is it fair for those you are championing to ignore objective, real world facts and evidence that they can in no way explain or demonstrate with their theories while besmirching ..."

    Oh wow. "Championing." "Besmirching." Heaven forbid that I "champion" the taking of perfectly reasonable steps to discern Worthless Fringe from Fringe That Has Legitimate Potential.

    5. We all have a thousand things competing for our attention, and as it stands, this doesn't look enticing enough to select over other options I have. But if you tell me that you've recognized that we all - you, me, everyone - , have biases, and have taken the time to flush those biases out by intentionally take the opposing point of view, and attempting to debunk this theory that you've become attracted to ...

    ... BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT ANY GOOD CRITICAL THINKER IS BOUND TO DO BY THEIR OWN VALUES, PONDERER, NOT BECAUSE NAVY SAYS SO, BUT BECAUSE THEIR OWN VALUES AS A GOOD CRITICAL THINKER DICTATE IT ...

    ... then I will watch your video.

    In the meantime, no snark intended. I'm glad you've found something that you enjoy, and that you're excited about.






  57. by Donna on November 30, 2025 12:17 pm

    In all seriousness, the theory that Rev. Wallis (and other researchers have and are promoting) is that Genesis begins after the near-extinction level event that spawned the Younger Dryas period (10,800 - 9,600 BCE). It dovetails nicely with Graham Hancock's research.

    I wasn't ever very interested in archeology until I started following this relatively new research, which I find fascinating.


  58. by Donna on November 30, 2025 12:28 pm

    Graham Hancock's very well researched series "Ancient Apocalypse" earns him more than YouTuber status IMO. Rev. Paul Wallis has published about ten books, two of which I've read. I've since discovered that the theories on the Old Testament he's been promoting have been around for decades, since the discovery of the cuneiform tablets in what was ancient Sumeria.


  59. by HatetheSwamp on November 30, 2025 12:30 pm

    There are some Christians, Jews, probably, too, who, before these theories were developed, believed in a "gap" between Genesis 1:1 & 2.

    From AI:

    "The "gap theory" proposes a vast, unmentioned time gap between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 to reconcile the biblical account of creation with scientific ideas of an ancient Earth. It suggests God initially created a perfect world, which was then destroyed by a global catastrophe, likely due to Satan's rebellion, making the earth "formless and void" as described in Genesis 1:2. Subsequently, God recreated everything during the six days described later in the chapter."


  60. by Donna on November 30, 2025 12:42 pm

    I'm familiar with that, Hts. What we're talking about is quite different.

    Archeology is going through a reset, due largely to technological advances like LIDAR. It's a fascinating time for science. New discoveries are happening daily now.


  61. by Ponderer on November 30, 2025 1:08 pm

    "Ponderer,

    1. "the tone of hostility that I'm getting."

    No hostility. I'm asking perfectly valid questions, the same questions that you would HOPEFULLY ask of anyone presenting a non-mainstream idea. You and Donna are interpreting that as snark.

    2. "Navy, I'm up to looking at whatever disciplines and countering ideas that you care to suggest I check out."

    I'm not offering to play a role. I'm asking if you, as someone who, I would think, views themselves as a critical thinker, has taken the necessary step to seek out countering ideas? It's sound like it's a "no".

    3. "Again, I don't believe I am dismissing anyone by simply pointing out relevant evidence that they are ignoring"

    a. You're not? What should I take from the fact that you label them as, "existentially invested in not looking at [the evidence]"?

    b. If you haven't sought to debunk these alternate theories that you're pursuing, then you don't KNOW what they are ignoring ... unless you are simply taking your YouTuber at his word.

    4. "Is it fair for those you are championing to ignore objective, real world facts and evidence that they can in no way explain or demonstrate with their theories while besmirching ..."

    Oh wow. "Championing." "Besmirching." Heaven forbid that I "champion" the taking of perfectly reasonable steps to discern Worthless Fringe from Fringe That Has Legitimate Potential.

    5. We all have a thousand things competing for our attention, and as it stands, this doesn't look enticing enough to select over other options I have. But if you tell me that you've recognized that we all - you, me, everyone - , have biases, and have taken the time to flush those biases out by intentionally take the opposing point of view, and attempting to debunk this theory that you've become attracted to ...

    ... BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT ANY GOOD CRITICAL THINKER IS BOUND TO DO BY THEIR OWN VALUES, PONDERER, NOT BECAUSE NAVY SAYS SO, BUT BECAUSE THEIR OWN VALUES AS A GOOD CRITICAL THINKER DICTATE IT ...

    ... then I will watch your video.

    In the meantime, no snark intended. I'm glad you've found something that you enjoy, and that you're excited about."
    -Navy


    Okay.


  62. by Ponderer on November 30, 2025 1:34 pm

    "I don't think they are a bit more ancient. Those civilizations were lost to history, for sure. But, how can they be more ancient?" -pb

    It seems that you might be a little surprised to learn that such civilizations are no longer as "lost" as you might still believe they are. And that recently found, entirely unknown civilizations far predate Old Testament Biblical times by several thousands of years. Throwing the beginning of what was before considered known civilization back to around 11,000 or 12,000 years ago. This is during the time supposedly when humans were just hunters and gatherers and just beginning to discover agriculture and civilization.

    And while they were getting all that off the ground, it has now been discovered that at that time, they also apparently invented monolithic architecture out of the clear blue.

    It is interesting to note that before this (below) site's excavations in the late 90's into the present, the dawn of civilization wasn't supposed to have started until around 5,000 or 6,000 years ago.



    Göbekli Tepe, Turkey.
    "The settlement was inhabited from around 9500 BCE to at least 8000 BCE,[4] during the Pre-Pottery Neolithic. It is known for its circular structures that contain large stone pillars – among the world's oldest known megaliths. Many of these pillars are decorated with anthropomorphic details, clothing, and sculptural reliefs of wild animals, providing archaeologists insights into prehistoric religion and the iconography of the period." -Wikipedia


  63. by HatetheSwamp on November 30, 2025 2:27 pm

    "It seems that you might be a little surprised to learn that such civilizations are no longer as "lost" as you might still believe..."

    I said they WERE lost to history.


  64. by Ponderer on November 30, 2025 2:59 pm



    Okay.




  65. by Ponderer on November 30, 2025 3:00 pm

    And I am saying that they have been FOUND.


  66. by HatetheSwamp on November 30, 2025 3:53 pm

    AND, I'M NOT ARGUING.


  67. by Ponderer on December 27, 2025 8:26 am

    I was just kind of hoping that someone in here might have an interest in ancient history and might want to talk about it. It's good to talk with others about things that don't involve politics every once in a while. How nostalgic would it feel to get a discussion going in here like that?


    I've been learning about a great deal about human history that was never covered in high school history class.

    Something that I am noticing that apparently spans history is a dichotomy that I think has been in place non-stop for millennia. Going at least all the way back to the myths of Prometheus and the Garden of Eden. How one side wanted humanity to have knowledge that the other side is desperately trying to keep them from having. I think this dichotomy is still in place all the way up to today as well.

    I don't know if any of you are familiar with Zahi Hawass. If you've ever watched anything about ancient Egypt or the "pidimids" as he calls them, you've likely seen and heard him. He is quite an authority on ancient Egypt. But from what I've learned about him, he is on the "KEEP IT AWAY FROM THEM" side of things. And it seems that there are an awful lot of ancient sites around upper Egypt that hold objectively tantalizing clues to secrets that he refuses to allow to be explored. Even the Sphynx.

    His and the established archeologic community's take is that everything started in Egypt shortly before the Old Kingdom around 2,500 BCE. That these ancient Egyptians built everything that we see in the archeologic record there. And he is apparently highly motivated to keep it that way as a sort of pride in Egyptian history.

    There are so many sites that supposedly date back to the most ancient times of the Old Kingdom that contain megalithic architecture that far surpasses anything that came after it. In fact, there are sites attributed to this Old Kingdom where giant granite stones of unimaginably precise and impossible workmanship for the time were recycled for use in Old Kingdom structures. Workmanship that far surpasses anything that came after it in difficulty and accuracy. Many of the Old Kingdom temples and such were built on far older foundations from previous times.

    But don't you dare go asking Hawass anything about that "rubbish". He and the established archeologic hierarchy are not into any new, "radical" ideas just because the evidence demands it. They know what's what and that's what what is.


    I've recently learned about the great Labyrinth of Egypt. It's been known about since at least a few thousand years ago. Ancient writers from Christ's time went to it and wrote about it and described it in detail. It was described as far surpassing the pyramids and all the Greek and Egyptian temples combined in size and incomparable construction, artistry, and complexity. It's surmised that the famous Labyrinth of Crete where the Minotaur hung out was based on it. But it was on a scale of only "one 100th" of the size of the Egyptian one, as one ancient historian wrote who had seen it himself. Many hundreds of rooms. Dozens of gigantic courts and "palaces" and was said to go down many levels.

    And the thing is... we know exactly where it is.

    An archeologist in the early 1800's did some excavations at the site and found an entrance at the base of the pyramid that's next to it (which the ancient historians spoke of) and even dug down to the roof of the thing near it, but thought it was the foundation of the Labyrinth. Unfortunately, the much higher water table then wouldn't allow him to go in very far. Today, you can only go in that same sloping entrance about 50' before hitting the water table resulting from the Aswan High Dam.

    In modern times, ground penetrating radar and other techniques have been used on the site and have very recently determined that there in fact are a ton of huge open voids and serpentine passages under there.

    But Hawass is happy to attribute the Labyrinth as well to the early Old Kingdom times and be done with it. He blows off the radar results as so much nonsense. He has never shown any desire to ever explore the site or to let anyone else do it either. Even though bringing to light such a monumentally incredible archeologic site would be of tremendous interest to the whole world. I think it's because he fears the truth of what it might present and that it might destroy his cherished timeline of history. As he does with so many other sites in Egypt.

    It doesn't seem like a very difficult thing to me to simply drill a big enough hole through that roof into a section where a void has been determined and lower down a small robot minisub kind of thing to go in and check the thing out at least. But I can't find any mention of any current expeditions to do so.


  68. by Donna on December 27, 2025 9:16 am

    We spend a lot of our time watching educational content like this. Fascinating stuff. I wish that more here were interested in discussing other topics, if for no other reason than a change of pace, because right now, I've gotta say, this forum, for me, is a bore, with 6 or 7 participants mired in a never-ending debate with a clown, which is why I don't participate much anymore.



  69. by Indy! on December 27, 2025 11:38 am

    Navy is setting new standards for passive aggressiveness on this board. Props to da man. 👊😎

    BTW, reading thru parts of this again I see no one really answered how the Christians got to the 6000 yr estimate. From what I understand, they simply took the math from the Bible. There are passages that indicate how much time passed - for instance Methusalah (sp?) lived 900 or so years, etc... The lineage of human existence is more or less a timeline to Jesus at which point we know it's been 2025(+/-) since his birth. Of course I had plenty of questions about that just like everything else in the fable.


  70. by Navy2711 on December 27, 2025 11:45 am

    Programs that make wild, unfounded claims aren't "educational". They're conspiracy porn. We currently have no evidence of technology or structures that is outside of the capabilities Old Kingdom technology.

    I agree that this forum is tired. It needs functioning conservatives / libertarians / anarchists / whatever, and there are none. It's one MAGA religious nutter with a trans obsession searching for attention, and the rest of us giving it to him. I'm happy to discuss other topics, but they need to be based in reality (... or obviously not based in reality, such as discussion about a movie). Your opening post has red flags all over it. "Carved to machine precision" -style claims are what people have been saying ever since the internet became the substrate for conspiracy. (And Cement Head Joe Rogan made that claim as recently as five years ago.) You ever see a picture of the blocks that comprise the pyramids? They look like an 80-year-old Englishman's teeth.

    You have a surprising ability to code switch between critical and non-critical thinking, depending on whether you're talking about politics or pyramids. Don't believe me? Think I'm just being insulting? Think back to 10 -15 years ago. You were spot-on in 95% of your claims about politics ... and yet you still fell for the Sounds From the Sky hoax. I'm telling you (by "you" I mean you two, collectively) this as a friend - you're not navigating your current rabbit hole with a critical mind.


  71. by Indy! on December 27, 2025 11:49 am

    Tell us the one about gravity being nothing more than the earth falling thru space again, Navy.


  72. by Donna on December 27, 2025 12:23 pm

    What's the "conspiracy", Navy?

    Navy decreed that what my wife wrote us a "conspiracy theory" without any citatations whatsoever and probably without even examining the new discoveries. What he doesn't understand is that some fields of science, like archeology, are going through a period of revision now because of advances in technology, and some old school conservative scientists are resistant to it because some of the new discoveries call into question their life's work. That's what all the resistance is about.

    But good that at least we're having a discussion about something besides politics.





  73. by Indy! on December 27, 2025 1:48 pm

    Navy's military so he's been brainwashed into believing anything "conspiratorial" can't be true. It undermines the chain of command. He couldn't even answer a question I had about UFOs and the U.S. Navy that my uncle (also Navy) confirmed was true.


  74. by Navy2711 on December 27, 2025 1:51 pm

    Donna,

    "Navy decreed that what my wife wrote us a 'conspiracy theory' ..."

    I didn't call the OP a "conspiracy theory" directly ... but it fits. In modern parlance, theories that are wildly outside the norm, unsupported by evidence, and repeated by those who traffic in unscientific, uncritical thought are rightfully called conspiracy theories (even if that's a bit sloppy from a strict definitional point of view.) " ... a gob-smackingly advanced civilization existed all over this planet in deep prehistory ... has been systematically hidden from the rest of humanity for millennia" fits this perfectly.


    "without any citatations whatsoever "

    Just like the OP. The irony here is white hot.


    " probably without even examining the new discoveries"

    Similar to how I don't give serious thought to flat-earth theories anymore. I'm familiar enough with Graham Hancock to know that why his theories are dismissed by mainstream archaeologists.

    It's telling how quickly you turn on mainstream science when it's to your liking. I'm going to hazard a guess: When MAGA wanted to use Ivermectin and other nonsense to treat Covid, you probably invoked the wisdom of the mainstream medical community, no? Or did you go down a rabbit hole and give deep thought to injecting bleach and shining ultraviolet light down your throat? Those of us (yourself included) who are fully capable of rational thought tend to lean on it more when it COUNTS. When there's a PENALTY to pay for getting it wrong. When we're talking about ancient civilizations, it's easier to take on flights of fancy.


    "That's what all the resistance is about."

    That's untrue. At best, it's incomplete. The resistance is about the lack of evidence supporting Graham's claims. You'd know that if you'd taken the time to try to DISprove his theories, which is what any critical thinker should do. Take that "you won't look at the evidence" finger that you're pointing and turn it around 180 degrees. Take the time and go read what those who DISagree with Graham have to say.


    "But good that at least we're having a discussion about something besides politics."

    Right? 😃


  75. by meagain on December 27, 2025 1:55 pm
    It was an Irish Bishop, indy, who came up with the 6000 6000 years. I believe in the way you describe, though I have never been interested enough to look that up.

    One can come up with all kinds of dates for anything by poring over the Bible. When I was 1 years old, I filled in time in Greek classes, the teacher could not see me, by working out when the world would end. I wish I had written it down.
    It ended in 1964, so whatever you read in these forums, is all imaginary. All just your spirit creating something to keep from boredom.


  76. by meagain on December 27, 2025 1:59 pm
    Civilisation cab be definitevley claimed to have begun around 10,000 BC. The word comes from some French man who coined it in the 19th. century to mean living in cities. No connection with the state of society.

    Of course, it is used in a broader sense now.


  77. by Ponderer on December 27, 2025 2:36 pm

    "We currently have no evidence of technology or structures that is outside of the capabilities Old Kingdom technology." -Navy


    YES!!! WOO HOO!!!



    This is what I'm talking about! Here's something that I can really sink my teeth into, discussion-wise!

    "I'm happy to discuss other topics, but they need to be based in reality" -Navy

    Oh, and I'm happy to oblige you.

    "Your opening post has red flags all over it. "Carved to machine precision" -style claims are what people have been saying ever since the internet became the substrate for conspiracy." -Navy

    Fabulous. I have so much to work with here, but let's take it slow.


    Let's just work with the example I gave of the stone vessels to start with.

    These carved stone vases, such as the over 14,000 retrieved from beneath the Step Pyramid of Djoser, compare in workmanship and accuracy to nothing else ever produced by ancient Egyptians since that time. Not to mention the phenomenally accurate geometric formulas they contained in their construction. Such vases have also been found in other areas spread all over a vast region. They have been found in burials that date more than ten thousand years ago. On the face of these vases, there is nothing about them that precludes them being tens of thousands of years old.

    The Step Pyramid is accepted to have been built around 2650 BCE which is only 350 years ahead of the end of the "Predynastic Period of Egypt". Djoser was apparently a very intense collector of these things to have so many under his pyramid, whether they were made during his reign or much earlier, as I believe they were.

    There are similar Dynastic Egyptian artifacts... vessels and vases that are similar to the stone vases I speak about. But they are all made of far softer stone, like alabaster or other marbles, and the terms "accurate" or "precise" could not be applied to them in anything other than a humorous way. There are historic records of how these vessels were made, but these techniques could in no way be how the Stone Vases were made. Such crude techniques could never produce even one of these stone vases given any amount of time with the historical technology that modern archaeology says made them. It even looks like the cruder, newer vessels were an attempt to emulate the ancient granite ones.

    A few of these stone vessels have only recently been run through tests with laser 3D imaging equipment and precise micro-measurement devices. There is no longer any reason for doubt about just how accurate and precise they are. Radiuses in precise formulaic combinations that are perfect circle arcs to unbelievably minute measurements. The thinness of some of the walls. The geometric relations that every aspect of the vase contains.

    I could link you to a series of videos recording the tests if anyone would like.


    To me, these stone vases are like messages in a bottle from the very deep past... but the bottle itself is the message. And it's taken all this time... up until now... for humanity to progress technologically enough to be able to even read it.

    And regardless of what the actual purpose of these vases was, I think that it's a very simple message that is buried deep in all that complexity:

    "WE COULD DO THIS"






  78. by Ponderer on December 27, 2025 2:43 pm


    Oh and just as a quick recap...

    "We currently have no evidence of technology or structures that is outside of the capabilities Old Kingdom technology." -Navy

    ...That is wrong.



  79. by Ponderer on December 27, 2025 2:49 pm

    Check them out. All sorts of the hardest stone varieties carved and polished to high smoothness...
    google.com


  80. by Ponderer on December 27, 2025 2:51 pm

    (Click the Images button at that link...)


  81. by Navy2711 on December 27, 2025 3:28 pm

    You posted a link to a Google search of "Egyptian stone vases". Is that what you meant to post?


  82. by Ponderer on December 27, 2025 3:46 pm

    (Click the Images button at that link...)


  83. by Curt_Anderson on December 27, 2025 3:52 pm
    The craftsmanship of Egyptian vases is impressive. The Wikipedia article below explains their manufacturing processes. I will grant you that some techniques may be inexplicable.

    For most of history, the recipe for Roman concrete was lost. Roman concrete did not form cracks, as it had a self-healing property. Concrete bridges and buildings have been standing for over 2000 years. The Pantheon is the world's largest unreinforced concrete dome. It was only very recently when researchers from MIT, Harvard and laboratories in Europe, discovered the ancient concrete making formula and techniques.
    en.wikipedia.org
    news.mit.edu


  84. by myce on December 27, 2025 8:11 pm
    I knew the Egyptians had superior stone working technology, but I didn't know how old it is, or that there is a massive underground labyrinth in Egypt! Curious how advances in modern technology allows us to perceive ancient technology. If the ancients had technology or knowledge that is alien to us, then we wouldn't recognize it.

    The problem with excavation of the labyrinth is that development has changed the landscape. The water table is at 5 meters, and the labyrinth starts at 9 meters, according to the video I'll link. It would be billions for infrastructure and it would mess with farmers' water. These factors could make it a political nightmare the government just doesn't want to deal with. It's kind of tragic and I hope a solution can be found.

    I'm meandering, but still on the topic of old things lost and found: The Vikings used a legendary “sunstone” to locate the sun for navigation on a cloudy day. The sunstone may have been a piece of optical calcite, and I'll link a video that shows how a crystal could be used for navigation.
    youtube.com
    youtube.com


  85. by Navy2711 on December 27, 2025 8:34 pm

    "Click the Images button at that link..." - Ponderer

    Yup. Already did that. Now I"m looking at pictures of vases. Now what?


  86. by Ponderer on December 28, 2025 5:34 am

    myce, I agree that excavating the Labyrinth would be unworkable. Doing whatever was necessary to drain the water from it to get in there would be an immensely expensive nightmare that as you say could cause havoc for the surrounding areas.

    But what I am talking about doing is using the ground penetrating radar to locate a large void that is certainly full of water and drilling a 6" or 8" hole straight down into it. Then just sending a small underwater ROV down the hole to explore with.

    Water that hasn't been disturbed for a long time should be pretty clear. It may be kinda cloudy around where they drilled the hole for a little while, but away from it a bit it should be fine. They use these little ROVs to explore shipwrecks, so something like this should be a piece of cake for one of these things.

    If this type of exploration leads to the discoveries that I think it would, a larger hole could be made that a person could be lowered through. People scuba dive in caves all the time.


    I've watched a lot of Ben's videos on this and many other things, like his work with the vases. He seems to be the one who is really trying to dive into this subject right now. I hadn't seen this interview though. I'll check it out in a bit. Thanks!


  87. by Ponderer on December 28, 2025 5:39 am

    "Now I"m looking at pictures of vases. Now what?" -Navy

    Now look at a bunch of examples of these things I'm talking about. I was posting that so folks could see the variety and quantity of these things that have been found.


  88. by Ponderer on December 28, 2025 5:41 am

    Navy, have you ever done much carpentry or metal work? Have you ever worked with anything like a lathe or a mill?


  89. by myce on December 28, 2025 5:50 am
    Navy, apply more curiosity and less judgement. How can anyone make such flawless granite vases without advanced machines/computers?



  90. by Ponderer on December 28, 2025 6:02 am

    That first video that myce links to at post #84 is a great little primer on the Labyrinth. And at the end, Ben touches on how some of the most famous sculptures in Egypt were made with the same impossible precision as the vases.


  91. by myce on December 28, 2025 6:29 am
    Ponderer, wouldn't it just be like mud down there, and not like a lake a robot could swim in?


  92. by Ponderer on December 28, 2025 9:01 am

    Myce, it seems to me that if the water seeped into the space, there wouldn't be that much sediment in it. And even if the floor is a couple feet thick with sediment, the water above is probably clear. The dimensions of this thing are gargantuan. Caves have a lot of sediment in them and it settles to the bottom, leaving the water pretty clear. And the water in them is flowing in and out, more or less. If the water has only seeped into the Labyrinth and the only way it gets out is to seep out, I think it's going to be pretty pristine in there.


  93. by Ponderer on December 28, 2025 9:04 am

    Imagine if these guys were inside the labyrinth...


  94. by Ponderer on December 28, 2025 9:36 am

    Here's a really good short video that lays everything out about the Labyrinth to the present. Boy, is Hawass an asshole.
    View Video


  95. by Donna on December 28, 2025 9:37 am

    didn't cIn modern parlance, theories that are wildly outside the norm, unsupported by evidence, and repeated by those who traffic in unscientific, uncritical thought are rightfully called conspiracy theories (even if that's a bit sloppy from a strict definitional point of view.) " - navy

    None of that applies to what my wife is presenting here - actually the opposite.



  96. by Indy! on December 28, 2025 11:12 am

    Interesting video - thanks, Pondy.

    So far as Navy? Don't waste your time. The military is based on the idea that you don't question authority or the status quo. Scientific research should be limited to only creating new ways to kill and destroy. They purposely keep their people in the dark and make them feel comfortable being in the dark because it serves the purposes of the wealthy and established. That's why he can't fathom how their could be things like UFOs (UAPs - whatever) even though all the evidence necessary to explain them already exists in the things we do ourselves - we exist as an "intelligent species" on a planet, we build rockets, travel thru space, visit other planets, etc...

    Again... this is why you DON'T join the military.


  97. by Ponderer on December 28, 2025 2:04 pm

    It seems that the more I learn about history, the more I learn about how much has been kept from us.

    There just always seems to be an aspect of society that is bent on keeping the human species from knowing any more than we know. Throughout all history.


  98. by Navy2711 on December 28, 2025 2:42 pm

    Myce,

    "Navy, apply more curiosity and less judgement."

    1. I asked, "Now what?"

    2. You assumed, from a picture, that a vase was "flawless" and that it could not be produced without "advanced machines and computers"

    Which one of us displayed curiosity, and which one of us rendered judgment?

    Answer honestly, please. If you find yourself already reflexively typing before considering my question, please pause a moment, re-read what you and I both wrote, and then answer.


  99. by Navy2711 on December 28, 2025 2:47 pm

    Ponderer,

    1. Is my experience with lathes and CNC machines relevant here? Before you answer, please consider yourself in a similar position on another topic. For example, during the pandemic, there were a lot of questions and skepticism about the vaccine. You had to make up your mind about that before deciding to get the shot or not. Was your previous knowledge about MRNA technology relevant? Or did you make up your mind based on information that you digested from outside sources?

    2. Have you yet taken the time to honestly search for and explore alternative explanations and opinions that are counter to the ones you're currently pursuing?


  100. by myce on December 28, 2025 2:50 pm
    That looks like weaponized incompetence to me Navy, and I don't want to play.


  101. by Navy2711 on December 28, 2025 2:53 pm

    Myce,

    Okay, bye.


  102. by Ponderer on December 28, 2025 3:12 pm

    "Is my experience with lathes and CNC machines relevant here?" -Navy

    Not directly. It's just that if you had any such experience, it would be directly helpful to you in understanding difficulty in achieving the levels of precision and accuracy that are found in these vases. I haven't had any experience with such machinery myself for over a decade or so. I have had none with 5-axis robotic CNC machines, which some experts have said would be required to even come close to producing one of these vases with this level of precision and accuracy today.


    "Have you yet taken the time to honestly search for and explore alternative explanations and opinions that are counter to the ones you're currently pursuing?" -Navy

    I don't actually have any explanation. All I have is the experiential understanding that you couldn't make one of these vases the way that current archeological community's authorities say they were. I've seen cable TV show examples of experiments with copper saws and chisels. These tests conclude very little.

    Saying that these vases were made by hitting rocks with harder rocks, or using copper tools and sand before Egypt was even using the potter's wheel is like... setting off a bottle rocket and then standing back and saying, "See? That explains how we landed men on the moon!"

    But I would certainly love to come across some sort of defense of the Status Quo's theories about how they were made. None have come up in my searches. Lemme know if you know of any.


  103. by Curt_Anderson on December 28, 2025 3:18 pm
    "1. Is my experience with lathes and CNC machines relevant here?" ---Navy

    When the family and I visited the Goreme region of Turkey we stopped at a fabrication plant that sold and made vases, etc. from some sort of stone (marble, I think). We were given this egg as a souvenir.

    They used a CNC lathe among other automated tools. The ancients didn't have CNC of course, but the Egyptians had lathes around 1300 BCE.





  104. by Ponderer on December 28, 2025 5:46 pm

    These vases were made at the very least thousands of years before that.



  105. by Curt_Anderson on December 28, 2025 6:17 pm
    Ponderer,
    Isn't it possible lathes existed earlier than archaeologists think?


  106. by Navy2711 on December 28, 2025 6:46 pm

    Ponderer,

    "I don't actually have any explanation."

    From your first post:

    " I am now of the firm belief that a gob-smackingly advanced civilization existed all over this planet in deep prehistory that it is impossible for modern humans to even begin to comprehend."

    " I am only going by the massive, existentially flabbergasting evidence that literally spans the whole world."

    "Surprisingly, this unimaginable evidence essentially consists of nothing but rock. ... Rocks carved with mysterious technology and with such inhuman precision that they baffle all modern experts."

    "Granite and other rocks of the hardest density carved into jars and vessels (tens of thousands of them even found buried deep below Egypt's oldest pyramid) with such precision and with such complex geometries that even today's 5-axis, computer driven machinery Can Not Duplicate. "

    🤷‍♂️



  107. by Ponderer on December 28, 2025 8:32 pm


    "Isn't it possible lathes existed earlier than archaeologists think?" -Curt

    Nothing like what could produce these vases. And there's a big problem with them being done on a lathe of any kind for that matter.




    So, Navy... what's my explanation for these vases? How do I think they were made? Because as far as I know about what I know, I have no idea.


  108. by myce on December 28, 2025 9:49 pm

    Ponderer, what is the problem with the jars being done on a lathe of any kind?

    (I'm going on a little tangent here, but will sort of get back on topic at the end.) I get the impression there is a bit of conflict between mythology vs. empirical evidence. It is important to distinguish them, but I think the discussion includes both. Scientific methods are the most reliable method of finding truth, but the strength of this method is also its limitation. It relies on things being predictable, but I don't think everything that exists are things we can predict.

    We are existing on a massively sophisticated network machine. The machine has different processors for different things. Reflexes are very fast, but not necessarily reliable. I once met a person at the park who got his car stuck on a boulder. He said there was a bee in the car. It was unfortunate for him that reflexes are normally automatic, but with practice you can control some.

    On the other hand, conscious logic is relatively very slow but has better error-checking. And in between consciousness and reflex, there is what I call dream logic. It is logical, but not the same logic as the scientific method. It is subjective, symbolic logic, a faster, creative process, but lacks error checking. I think it is the seat of mythology.

    While it is right to be wary of subjectivity or mythology, I think it is a mistake to discount it entirely in the realm of the scientific thought. The subjective experience is certainly important in the field of medicine.

    I'm not sure where I'm going with this in the context of stone age technology. Maybe ancient people knew how to use their minds in ways we cannot conceive of, but there is no way to prove or disprove it. Maybe there are clues about what happened in mythology.





  109. by Ponderer on December 29, 2025 7:26 am

    Navy, I found a video of a Russian team that tried to make one of these vases using the tools that were known to be available to the ancient Egyptians.

    It took them two years, and they didn't polish it. Upon initial visual inspection, they did pretty fair job. If you don't look at it too carefully. They try to show with calipers, rulers, and felt tip pens that it was really close to an ancient stone vase. These findings look dubious on their face and are incapable of determining measurements anything like what some stone vases have been put through with advanced 3D laser technology.

    Upon close inspection you can see that it's got tons or irregularities. Especially when they were spinning it on a turn table. A genuine stone vase spun like that looks flawless. No bumps, no dips. Any regularities in symmetry in an ancient vase are measured in a few thousandths of an inch.

    Plus, they were simply trying to make something that looked like an ancient vase. They weren't attempting to hit specific radii anywhere on the thing. As I mentioned earlier, the ancient vases contain radii that all relate to each other in specific geometric ratios. This radius is precisely one half of that one, that radius is precisely three times this one, that sort of thing. The ratios get even more complex than that and point to geometric formulas and such. And again, the radii don't vary more than single digit thousandths of an inch on an ancient example. And this is all after the polishing, which is an entire subject in itself that this experiment didn't even attempt.

    While this is the most in-depth attempt to recreate a stone vase that I have yet come across, I don't believe that it comes anywhere near the level of precision, accuracy, or achievement that an ancient stone vase does.

    View Video


  110. by Ponderer on December 29, 2025 7:38 am

    "Ponderer, what is the problem with the jars being done on a lathe of any kind?" -myce

    The handles.

    The only way to do these things on a lathe is to leave a big ridge that goes all the way around the whole thing that contains the handles and then to go back with some other tooling technique that takes away the extraneous part to leave the handles.

    The problem is that there is absolutely no sign of that having been done on these vases. The precise tolerance and symmetry of the diameters continue between the handles as if the handles were never there when it was being worked on a lathe. But the handles are part of the whole solid object.

    Going from one machining technique to another will almost always leave some discrepance and even evidence of the second tooling. They of course can achieve such tolerances with multiple-axis computer guided machining on steel today. But granite would be another story all together.


  111. by Ponderer on December 29, 2025 7:38 am

    Lemme try that again...


  112. by Ponderer on December 29, 2025 7:39 am

    Last try...


  113. by Navy2711 on December 29, 2025 8:06 am

    Ponderer,

    "So, Navy... what's my explanation for these vases?"

    You think they were made by a gobsmackingly advanced civilization that existed all over this planet in deep history. It says that right there in the OP, and I pasted it in post #106. Is that not what we're discussing?


  114. by Indy! on December 29, 2025 8:28 am

    Obviously it was made like this...


  115. by Ponderer on December 29, 2025 8:29 am

    "You think they were made by a gobsmackingly advanced civilization that existed all over this planet in deep history." -Navy

    So, you contend that whatever civilizations that produced these artifacts and structures all over the world in deep history didn't need to be "gobsmackingly" advance to produce them?


  116. by Ponderer on December 29, 2025 8:32 am

    Indy!, that couldn't be it. Egypt didn't even begin using a potter's wheel until a couple centuries after 14,000 of these vases were buried under a pyramid.


  117. by Indy! on December 29, 2025 9:48 am

    It was a joke, Pondy. 🙂


  118. by Ponderer on December 29, 2025 10:09 am

    I know, Indy!. I just wanted to use it as an excuse to bring up again that ancient Egyptian craftsmen didn't even have the potter's wheel until centuries after these vases were made.


  119. by Navy2711 on December 29, 2025 1:24 pm

    Ponderer, are we agreed that that's your explanation? You may not know the specific technology that they used, but an ancient advanced civilization is some part of the source of these vases? Whether they created them themselves, or they gave / loaned this technology to the humans?


  120. by Ponderer on December 29, 2025 4:14 pm

    Okay. Fine then. And by the way, I am talking about humans. There's no need to even bring non-human intelligence into this. The ancient civilization I'm talking about was certainly human. Other possibilities are certainly out there too. But we don't even have to go there. These humans simply far surpassed us in many technologies.

    So are you taking the position that these vases were made by a primitive culture that had barely made it out of the hunter and gatherer lifestyle? Do you think they maybe just came out of the forests, invented agriculture, and decided to build gargantuan megalithic structures all over the planet that have never been rivaled since and then sat down to whittle out a few thousand impossible granite vases...?

    That came out sounding kinda snide. Sorry. But where are you coming from regarding this subject?


  121. by Indy! on December 29, 2025 4:38 pm

    He only believes things he's told to believe.


  122. by Curt_Anderson on December 29, 2025 4:51 pm
    I am not sure if I am supporting Ponderer's point of view or not.

    It is within the realm of possibility that there was some ancient times genius unknown to us who developed an ingenious technique for making veins of exacting perfection. Maybe he or she was a very early Leonardo da Vinci, who devised a vase making technique or even a contraption that was too complicated to be recorded or reproduced thus unknown and unaccessible to archaeologists to study.

    I already mentioned above the lost formula for Roman concrete. I also think it's possible that there was some unique mineral or metal unknown to us now that was available to the ancient Egyptians which they used in fabricating vases.


  123. by Ponderer on December 29, 2025 5:06 pm

    "It is within the realm of possibility that there was some ancient times genius unknown to us who developed an ingenious technique for making veins of exacting perfection." -Curt

    That's a fair enough opinion. And these are some pretty ingeniously made alright. As I mentioned, Precise radii and angles perfect down to within mere thousandths of an inch.

    Do you have any opinion on what sort of measuring devices they must have used to confirm that they were nailing such precise measurements and proportions...?


  124. by Curt_Anderson on December 29, 2025 5:11 pm
    They did have potters' wheels in ancient Egypt. A person would not need to have any numbers or measurements to know if something was perfectly cylindrical, for example.


  125. by Curt_Anderson on December 29, 2025 5:20 pm
    I can imagine why the techniques were perfect vase making would be lost to history. Unless you planned on being buried in a pyramid and wanting to ascend and impress the gods who you will meet with your vases, who cares if the dimensions are dead on perfect?


  126. by Indy! on December 29, 2025 5:34 pm

    Don't remember everything I learned about the ancients and their handiwork in college (just a grade for me), but I do know they were pretty clever. One interesting factoid was the Pantheon (or was it the Parthenon?) was not actually perfectly straight on the sides because if it were, it would appear to bow inward in the middle. So for visual effect, they purposely bowed it outward in the middle to make it appear straight.


  127. by Donna on December 29, 2025 10:20 pm

    "They did have potters' wheels in ancient Egypt. A person would not need to have any numbers or measurements to know if something was perfectly cylindrical, for example." - Curt

    🤭




  128. by Ponderer on December 30, 2025 6:51 am

    Curt, cylindrical isn't the issue here. There isn't really anything that is "cylindrical" about these vases. Everything about them is based more on sphericality and radii. So I imagine you were referring more to that.

    Making a vase like these without any predetermined exact shape and having it come out pretty and smooth and rounded is one thing. Setting out with a specific, exact shape with predetermined precise specifications and then achieving that outcome to near perfection in granite is a whole other kettle of fish.

    The vases all seem to have at least one specific geometric formula like π and other formulas embedded in the proportions and ratios of the circles that are involved in it, and they all relate to each other to make the whole. They were designed before the work even started on them.

    Simply designing such an object today would require very complex calculations and even computer assistance.

    In doing more research, I have found one person who has taken issue with these ratios and proportions on one vase that he examined (link below). So there isn't total unanimity in the community about these. The research is still so new on these things. I am unfamiliar with the Artifact Foundation that he mentions, but I don't believe that they were involved in any of the information that I have been looking into so far.


    arcsci.org


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