Post: Why I'm OK with ditching DEI

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Why I'm OK with ditching DEI

By ROB3RT
May 24, 2025 11:20 pm
Category: Politics
(0.0 from 0 votes)
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It's been a little while since DEI was the Rant-of-the-Day, so maybe now's a good time to offer a few thoughts, when people are less emotional and defensive.

Yes, there are definitely some racists, sexists and other bigots on the right, but I think most people are OK in general with the idea of diversity. It's good to have different kinds of people around, because they offer new perspectives.

The problem a lot of people have isn't with the general idea of diversity, it's with the implementation of DEI programs.

My industry has a lot of techies and engineers, the workforce skews older, white, male, well-educated and nerdy. The DEI program we've implemented offers ambitious goals. But we’ve had at least three different DEI heads in the past few years, with each person moving on before really accomplishing anything. We're given checklists to follow, but we're also told the checklists are mostly things we're already doing. In hiring, our HR folks are rewording job descriptions to appeal to a more diverse group of applicants, and we're conducting "nationwide recruitments" for high-level positions, which basically means the local pool of applicants is too white and male to satisfy the DEI goals.

And, yes, I have seen diversity hires. It's not quite as dire as the anti-DEI crowd wants to believe, but I can see why it could lead cynicism and resentment. In positions that require a particular expertise or license, I've only seen qualified people make the cut. But in other positions, mid-level managers for example, yeah, we've hired "diverse" folks who don’t have the usual qualifications. I suspect these people were hired with the understanding that they would grow into the job or they would have enough support from their teams to succeed. Unfortunately, when you conduct nationwide searches and hire people who don't understand the industry or local culture, things sometimes don't work out. It can be hit and miss, and you're generally more likely to notice the misses than the hits.

And it’s not just me saying this. The Atlantic, The Washington Post and other liberal or mainstream publications, have run many articles skeptical of the DEI industry (I'll post an excerpt of one below).

I've heard people in this forum ask, "How can anybody be against diversity?" Most people aren’t. It's the DEI programs they don’t like.

So here's my message to folks on the left...

Our nation is in crisis. We have an authoritarian in the White House. It is crucial that Democrats win Congress, the Senate or both next year as a check on presidential power. We're not going to win by campaigning against the oligarchy and other abstractions only discussed in college towns. We need to focus on core kitchen-table issues -- the economy, jobs, health care, the safety net -- and jettison ineffective things that don't appeal to a broad base.

There are a lot of hills I'm willing to fight and die on. DEI is not one of them.

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Comments on "Why I'm OK with ditching DEI":

by ROB3RT on May 24, 2025 11:22 pm

A good article about DEI programs...

The DEI Industry Needs to Check Its Privilege
The worst of the industry is expensive and runs from useless to counterproductive.
By Conor Friedersdorf

MAY 31, 2023

The diversity, equity, and inclusion industry exploded in 2020 and 2021, but it is undergoing a reckoning of late, and not just in states controlled by Republicans, where officials are dismantling DEI bureaucracies in public institutions. Corporations are cutting back on DEI spending and personnel. News outlets such as The New York Times and New York magazine are publishing more articles that cover the industry with skepticism. And DEI practitioners themselves are raising concerns about how their competitors operate.

The scrutiny is overdue. This growing multibillion-dollar industry was embedded into so many powerful public and private institutions so quickly that due diligence was skipped and costly failures guaranteed.

Now and forever, employers should advertise jobs to applicants of all races and ethnicities, afford everyone an equal opportunity to be hired and promoted, manage workplaces free of discrimination, and foster company cultures where everyone is treated with dignity. America should conserve any gains it has made in recent years toward an equal-opportunity economy. Perhaps the best of the DEI industry spurred the country in that direction.

However, the worst of the DEI industry is expensive and runs from useless to counterproductive. And even people who highly value diversity and inclusion should feel queasy about the DEI gold rush that began in 2020 after the murder of George Floyd. A poor Black man’s death became a pretext to sell hazily defined consulting services to corporations, as if billions in outlays, mostly among relatively privileged corporate workers, was an apt and equitable response. A radical course correction is warranted––but first, let’s reflect on how we got here.

[Read the rest of the article at The Atlantic -- Link below]

theatlantic.com

by ROB3RT on May 25, 2025 3:04 am

There’s another reason I think a lot of people -- and not just conservatives -- are skeptical about DEI. It’s seen as a liberal ideology that champions diversity in some respects (gender, race, etc.) but isn’t interested in diversity when it comes to opposing opinions. Proponents of DEI may want to include certain demographic groups, but they seem less enthusiastic about including people with conservative or religious viewpoints.

I listened to a recent podcast that touched on this. Alan Alda, the former M*A*S*H actor and well-known liberal activist, now hosts the Clear + Vivid podcast, which promotes science communication. In a recent episode (March 3, 2025), he interviewed Malcolm Gladwell, author of the Tipping Point, who made this comment about DEI’s shortcomings:

GLADWELL: I think what the current controversy teaches us is that the people pushing diversity, the proponents of DEI, defined diversity far too narrowly. They almost lacked confidence in their idea. They thought what they were really doing was focusing on gender and racial diversity, and they should have been far more ambitious. They should have said what we’re really interested in is true diversity across many different domains – people who think differently, people who make sense of the world differently. Now that encompasses people who are of a different gender or of a different race, but it also includes people who simply have different views.

I would always joke, when we think about diversity at the little company I’m a part of, we have lots of women, we have lots of people of color, but we don’t have any Republicans. We’re not diverse! How can you call yourself diverse if you don’t have any Republicans, right? There are vanishingly few people who go to church. Now, we’re a company that is trying to reach a broad swath of Americans, and if you have vanishingly few people who are openly religious and almost no one who votes for the Republicans, how can you possibly reach all of America?

clear-vivid-with-alan-alda.simplecast.com

by HatetheSwamp on May 25, 2025 5:59 am

"I would always joke, when we think about diversity at the little company I’m a part of, we have lots of women, we have lots of people of color, but we don’t have any Republicans. We’re not diverse!"

Bang on.

by Donna on May 25, 2025 7:08 am

I'm wondering how Gladwell knows that none of his coworkers are Republican. In all the years I've been working (since 1970) I've never known the political party of any of my coworkers, the only exception being my current supervisor.

by HatetheSwamp on May 25, 2025 7:12 am

Donna,

You've never been around a political conversation among coworkers? Some places I've worked, they took place nearly every day.

Are you trying to claim that Cancel Culture ain't alive and well?

by Donna on May 25, 2025 7:30 am

Honestly no. That was a different era, though (pre-internet), when politics weren't front and center in so many Americans' minds. Also, I was a techie for 23 years. Techies, at least back then, never talked politics.

by Indy! on May 25, 2025 8:02 am

The points made in Robert’s post above are valid, but I honestly think everyone is still missing a much bigger point and a much bigger problem if the Ds ever want to get elected again. DEI - and the far too large emphasis the Democrats put on it in the last election - are merely another SYMPTOM of the real issue… that the Ds do not have any vision towards the future or understanding of what actually ails this country. They don’t have a real plan or BIG ideas so they fall back on their kente cloth dog and pony show and try to sell us DEI (and similar crap) like that’s a huge issue. For most people? It’s not.

I live in an area that is so diverse this has never really been an issue my entire live. I’ve never worked at an all white company, however I HAVE worked at an all black company and an all Hispanic company (except for me). Most people DON’T live in an area like mine, but I bet most people have similar stories to Robert’s - that the company they work for was already working toward diversity on their own and the last thing they need is a book full of gov’t regulations trying to tell them how to do it. DEI is just another of the Ds endless nibbling around the edges in order to maintain the status quo (just like the Rs are doing) instead of trying to actually address things like a true health CARE system, the wealth disparity (they always mention it, but never offer any plans) and the ever increasing cost of living.

Here’s where the rubber hits the road - the GOP can continue on destroying America because the super wealthy that support them DON’T CARE. The laws don’t apply to them and they can simply move if things get hairy. They get the necessary votes to win elections from the stupid people who fall for the America first lies and Fox fear tactics (see: every Brown Shorts post on this board). The Ds? Every election they have to cobble together a new coalition to get people to the polls. They are always on the defensive and they NEVER win unless the other option is so bad even the Rs can’t vote for it. If you ‘progressives’ here can’t see that from the last 40 years? It’s because you’re not looking.

by meagain on May 25, 2025 1:54 pm
What you are looking at is not DEI, Robert. It is money taking advantage of it. The UK, Canada, the whole U have DEI programmes and laws, and they are more severe in their penalties than the USA.

They work well. Reduced to its core, it means fairness and equal opportunity for all. There is nothing fair about leaving the disadvantaged to struggle.

by Curt_Anderson on May 25, 2025 2:20 pm
My nephew was a close childhood friend of Doug Glanville (see Wikipedia link), a former major league baseball player. They still are friends. I played basketball against Doug when I was about 30 and he was 12 or so. He kicked my ass.

Anyway, Doug is black. He attended the University of Pennsylvania on a scholarship. Many of his fellow students didn't realize (or give him credit) for being their on an academic scholarship, not an athletic one.

He wasn't there because of DEI or any affirmative action program. His mother was a math teacher and his father a psychiatrist. Doug just happens to be an athlete who is also very bright. I have read his commentary in the NY Times and I attended his book signing. He currently teaches engineering at the University of Connecticut.

My son is black and a cop in Las Vegas. He has never mentioned to me if was the victim of overt racism, but I suspect that some people have assumed he "benefitted" from being black. For the record, he did not get into college because of affirmative action or get extra points in his career for being black. He earned his degree (in three years) in criminal justice from a four-year university and was one of the top two students in his police academy class. He has earned his promotions because of his ability, not his race.

While I am all for giving minorities opportunities, any perceived unfair advantage tends to diminish the accomplishments of individuals. My preference is that college admission officers and HR departments be color-blind, nonsexist and unbigoted but not operate from a codified DEI handbook.

I agree with Robert that Democrats should focus on kitchen table issues and avoid cultural issues that concern small segments of the population.
en.wikipedia.org

by Indy! on May 25, 2025 2:23 pm

We already had laws on the books, Meagain - they just weren't referred to as "DEI". Every job application I've filled out in my entire life has said on it somewhere "We are an equal opportunity employer" (meaning they can't hire/fire based on race, etc...). Being an EOE is attached to some law that's been around forever.

by oldedude on May 25, 2025 2:23 pm
Robert-I've heard people in this forum ask, "How can anybody be against diversity?" Most people aren’t. It's the DEI programs they don’t like.

I absolutely agree. The Navy and Air Force had the most "inclusive" promotion system I've ever seen. The fact was, no one in the testing and scoring had any clue who the person was they were looking at. There was no race, age (other than time in service/ time in grade), religion or any other identifiers. They were strictly done in raw points. You took one test that was for your specific service questions. You had another test for your specific rating. Then you had awards and decorations (essentially rating any honors, but not "I was there" medals you've received), and your Performance Reviews. All of these are on a number system only the computers see. Thusly, everyone is working with all different races, genders, gender preferences, religions, etc.

Also. Everyone enlisting had to have a high school diploma. GEDs were very rare. "some" of those enlisting had some college credits. As a Senior Enlisted, you were expected to have an associate's degree. As an E9, most of us had a BA or MA degree.

Donna- I'm wondering how Gladwell knows that none of his coworkers are Republican. In all the years I've been working (since 1970) I've never known the political party of any of my coworkers, the only exception being my current supervisor.

In the civilian government, I saw much more politicizing than in the military (who outlawed political bumper stickers or license plates). There were people with the famous obomber painting, bumper stickers, etc in their cubicle. And as analysts, we'd talk a lot about news of the day (because we were given your daily reading list about your expertise). And since we were limited on what we could say about our cases to anyone, we talked about other "stuff."

I will agree with you though, if you went over to IT, they didn't say much and stayed to themselves. I thought that was interesting at the time.

by Indy! on May 25, 2025 2:34 pm

That's because 90% of the military is sucking on Trump's nuts like you. The Ds are smart enough to know if they speak up their careers will be over.

As always, I have to explain how the real world works. Even when it comes to your precious military.

by ROB3RT on May 25, 2025 2:49 pm

Donna wrote:

I'm wondering how Gladwell knows that none of his coworkers are Republican.

I think he wrote that it's a small company where you know everybody, and most of the staff are probably left-leaning and voice their opinions. There may not be any conservatives, or if there are they probably are too intimidated to speak up. Is that a diverse workplace?

meagain wrote:

What you are looking at is not DEI, Robert. It is money taking advantage of it. The UK, Canada, the whole U have DEI programmes and laws, and they are more severe in their penalties than the USA.

Yes, and if you read the story in the Atlantic (link above) it talks about how some DEI programs in the U.S. have been helpful, but many others are cash grabs. Many companies, organizations and government agencies are worried about being sued. Consultants and academics create DEI programs, and try to sell their services to these clients. It's a for-profit industry. And I've seen up close how ineffective it is. They seem more oriented toward creating a paper trail of actions they've taken rather than producing tangible results. It's hard to escape the conclusion that American DEI programs are all show, little substance.

So when Trump and the others try to shut down DEI programs, I don't see much reason to push back. They are costly and not very effective. I'm OK with shutting them down, and having a conversation a few years in the future about a better way to make progress on diversity and inclusion. But for now, there are more important issues to address.

Indy! wrote:

DEI is just another of the Ds endless nibbling around the edges in order to maintain the status quo (just like the Rs are doing) instead of trying to actually address things like a true health CARE system, the wealth disparity (they always mention it, but never offer any plans) and the ever increasing cost of living.

You make it sound so easy.

OK, why don't you create another thread where you lay out your plan for how you would make this happen? Show us the platform you think Democrats should embrace. Tell us who the leaders are that will champion this plan. Explain their strategy for getting elected in enough purple and red states to win a governing majority in the House, Senate and White House. Explain how they'll get it passed through razor-thin majorities. Tell us how you'll protect it from the next DOGE squad that tries to dismantle everything you worked so hard to create.

by ROB3RT on May 25, 2025 4:02 pm

Curt wrote:

While I am all for giving minorities opportunities, any perceived unfair advantage tends to diminish the accomplishments of individuals. My preference is that college admission officers and HR departments be color-blind, nonsexist and unbigoted but not operate from a codified DEI handbook.

I agree. DEI seems too focused on hiring. The idea of "nationwide searches" telegraphs the idea that identity is more important than experience and qualifications, that we won't find the candidate we want locally, so the only way we can find the person with the identity we want is to search on the other side of the country. I can see why this can make people, especially conservatives, feel cynical about DEI programs. It looks like back-door Affirmative Action.

One of the articles I read discussed the shortcomings of DEI programs and noted the irony that most of the money spent on these programs go to wealthy consultants, and that the programs seem to have little effect on the actual diverse and poor communities. They asked if we could have a greater social impact simply by giving the money out to poor people directly.

I wouldn't go that far, but I would prefer to see this money spent on Head Start programs, free school lunches, free preschool, daycare, other services that really focus on equity. Better prenatal care. More social services for single-mothers. Give the young people a boost at the very beginning of life so they have a better chance to succeed in school, which in turn will help them get into college programs and find good jobs.

Unfortunately, these are the same programs that conservatives railing against DEI want to cut.

by Indy! on May 25, 2025 4:37 pm

Robert:
You make it sound so easy.

It's just as easy to vote for something good as it is to vote for something bad. Ds (from voters to elected officials) always CHOOSE to vote for bad candidates and legislation. They don't magically appear from a genie's bottle. The excuse is always "the lesser evil" - my question is why are you accepting evil in the first place, much less every time you go to the polls? Are you ever going to ask for something different? Or do you want to keep standing by letting the country get more and more evil no matter who's in office - Ds or Rs?

OK, why don't you create another thread where you lay out your plan for how you would make this happen? Show us the platform you think Democrats should embrace. Tell us who the leaders are that will champion this plan. Explain their strategy for getting elected in enough purple and red states to win a governing majority in the House, Senate and White House. Explain how they'll get it passed through razor-thin majorities. Tell us how you'll protect it from the next DOGE squad that tries to dismantle everything you worked so hard to create.

Why don't you do that? I know you worked for Hillary back in the day - why didn't you run that question up the flagpole when you were inside her organization? Back then I asked you (many times) and plenty other Hillary voters exactly what she stood for outside of abortion rights - the only thing she actually talked about in 2016. Not a single one of you could ever give me even ONE example of what was in her platform. Am I supposed to vote for her because she's good looking? Because she wasn't that good looking.So you want a platform the Ds (and independents) might embrace? Start with ANY platform because usually it's DEI or kente cloth-style posing - no actual platform or ideas to fix the country. There are plenty of problems - weak healthcare, wealth inequality, the cost of living (young folks can't pay their rent). So there's 3 right there off the top of my head...

1) Real actual universal healthcare
2) Tax the rich
3) A program to build cheaper housing

When have the Ds gone anywhere near those 3 issues? I'll tell you when... never.

by oldedude on May 25, 2025 4:39 pm
princess (for the last few days I have not been using "princess." But it doesn't care. It's just a troll.

by Indy! on May 25, 2025 4:46 pm

I know why you quit using that term and it aint because you suddenly decided to make nice with me.

by Indy! on May 25, 2025 4:49 pm

BTW - for the others - do you see where OD chose to step into this conversation? When he didn't like what I was saying about it being time for a real change. I didn't call him out or "troll" anything - I was talking the truth that BOTH (🙄) parties can't deal with... making ACTUAL CHANGE in this country instead of the pr marketing crap we get from out government to try to placate the masses and keep us from doing exactly what I said needs to be done.

by oldedude on May 25, 2025 8:51 pm
You were really off subject. As usual. THAT's my issue. You say nothing at all that relates to the subject. All you do is attack people. As I've said, you get defensive about nothing, and yet you keep attacking everyone. It's no wonder you can't find anyone that is willing to have your children. You need your ego to be stroked every second.

by Indy! on May 26, 2025 9:28 am

OD - if you don't want to read my posts? Don't read them. It's that simple.

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