"I created the Leahy Law. It should be applied to Israel."
International by Donna     January 14, 2025 10:33 am (Rating: 5.0) Last comment by: Donna (4 comments) [59 views]

Oregon sends fire fighters to Los Angeles; Ashland sent a crew and equipment
Government by Curt_Anderson     January 13, 2025 10:09 am (Rating: 0.0) Last comment by: Curt_Anderson (4 comments) [105 views]

Pete Hegseth
Government by HatetheSwamp     January 14, 2025 7:17 am (Rating: 0.0) Last comment by: HatetheSwamp (2 comments) [37 views]

How Unauthorized Immigrants Help Finance Social Security Benefits
Politics by Curt_Anderson     January 13, 2025 11:42 am (Rating: 0.0) Last comment by: HatetheSwamp (11 comments) [108 views]

Jill Biden Prepares For Final Week As President
President by HatetheSwamp     January 14, 2025 8:37 am (Rating: 0.0) Last comment by: HatetheSwamp (2 comments) [46 views]

NEWSWEEK: Gavin Newsom Cut $100M From Fire Prevention Budget Before California Fires
Politics by HatetheSwamp     January 13, 2025 12:42 pm (Rating: 0.0) Last comment by: Indy! (3 comments) [64 views]

Judge rules that DOJ can release Jack Smith's final report on his Jan. 6 case against Trump
Law by Curt_Anderson     January 13, 2025 12:04 pm (Rating: 0.0) Last comment by: HatetheSwamp (11 comments) [111 views]

Will Karen Bass and Gavin Newsom face recall elections
Government by HatetheSwamp     January 11, 2025 2:43 pm (Rating: 0.0) Last comment by: HatetheSwamp (21 comments) [200 views]

Gov. Newsom invites Trump to act like a normal incoming president
President by Donna     January 12, 2025 9:00 am (Rating: 0.0) Last comment by: Indy! (20 comments) [156 views]

CA MAGA politicians flee CA to hang out with Trump at Maralago as L.A. burns
Travel by Donna     January 13, 2025 7:43 am (Rating: 0.0) Last comment by: HatetheSwamp (3 comments) [42 views]

Daniel Penny acquitted of criminally negligent homicide after more serious manslaughter charge was dismissed By HatetheSwamp December 9, 2024 9:25 am Category: Crime (5.0 from 1 vote) Rules of the Post Write A New Article How To Post Here

pb's tellin ya. A cultural sea change has taken place.

Trump, and the law and order GOPs, kicked woke Dem butt in the election. Now, a young white ex Marine is spared from the BLM lynch mob in all place?, NYC!!!!!

USA USA USA USA

Cited and related links:

1. cnn.com

Comments Start Below

by Indy! on December 9, 2024 9:45 am Racists Brown Shorts all across America celebrate! by Donna on December 9, 2024 10:53 am I read the article. Based on what I read, I would have found the defendant not guilty. Many say that we need better mental health resources, but the problem is that you can't force an adult to get therapy unless it's ordered by a judge, iow after a crime is committed, which often is too late. by Indy! on December 9, 2024 11:01 am Not sure how you found him "not guilty" from reading the article. Just the same old, same old - white guy chokes black man to death - white guy walks. There's no mystery here - this is our country - a racist trash dump voting for bigot presidents and white guys choking black guys to death. by Indy! on December 9, 2024 11:01 am Forgot the mental health aspect - try to get the GOP to vote for more mental health coverage when we can't even get real health insurance. by Curt_Anderson on December 9, 2024 1:06 pm There was a similar case on light rail train in Portland involving a mentally disturbed man and in this situation a young man from Ashland. See Reed link below. The Ashland man intervened when the disturbed man threatened a Black woman and a Muslim woman wearing a hijab. The Ashland man and another good Samaritan were stabbed; both died. In the Daniel Penny-Jordan Neely case in New York, the dead man's father was very upset with the verdict. I get that. But I think his blame was misplaced. Neely was apparently mentally ill. His family, his friends, "the system" should have protected Neely from himself. If Neely had some physical ailment, like blindness or the inability to walk which put him in potential danger, he probably would have received accommodations for his handicap. My son is a cop. More than once I've heard people say that cops should handle mentally ill people differently than regular criminals. It's not easy to distinguish a violent lunatic from a violent criminal. Often times they are a mixture of both. reed.edu by oldedude on December 9, 2024 7:51 pm You know what? There are no cops on the subways in NYC. Why. because your little shitheads defunded the police. So what to the citizen's do now? They wait for someone that isn't going to appear to "save" them? So they're child is murdered? Because no one else will protect them? Are you stoned? A woman and her child were targeted. At that point. Fuck You. He said that he was going to murder someone and he didn't mind going to jail. I know that you would have ran to the other end of the train like a little girl. No issue with that other than now you're speaking up like you actually have balls (which you don't). It's not what YOU thought. Its what the people on the train thought. You don't matter. Just sit the fuck down and actually listen to another human being for 3 minutes. The people on the train felt threatened. They were (mostly) black, with a white woman with a baby. Admittedly, those of color are the biggest riders of the metros in NYC? Why? because you rich white folk (read racists) can get other transportation. You need to quit looking at your lily-white Porcelain princess palace to think what the fuck the rest of the world thinks. I have said before that I don't go into Denver because if I saw a woman being raped at knife point I wouldn't raise a hand. Why? because I would be "arrested" and the woman would be an accomplice. THAT'S JUST FUCKING BULLSHIT. And thusly. I allow that to happen in that jurisdiction. In FL? Depends on where I am. Tampa? Mihami? Fuck you all. princess is getting raped? (although I'm pretty sure it's consensual) I'm not going to do anything but walk by. by Indy! on December 9, 2024 8:26 pm Simply not true. The NYPD actually increased their subway presence this past spring. by oldedude on December 10, 2024 3:14 pm From none, ONE is an increase. You do realize he had three black dudes helping Penny keep the asshole down after he threatened to murder a mother and her child and said he wanted to go to jail that day. And of course, there's no mention that Jordan Neely died from the “combined effects” of a number of a factors, schizophrenia, synthetic marijuana, sickle cell trait and the struggle from being in Penny’s restraint. And the coroner that did the autopsy didn't even wait for those tests to come into his office before he made his determination. Donna is 100% correct. The prosecution had crap for a case. They didn't check any or their sources. Defense completely destroyed everything the prosecution did. Prosecution said it was a racist crime? Defense destroyed that. They showed the video of Penny (and the black guys) fighting with neely on the ground. And then they showed the newsclips of the Black and Brown people that thanked Penny with their hearts for saving them. They all heard the same threats. They all looked at the would-be murderer that was jacked up on God knows what, because I don't think neely even knew. And the jury saw the newsclips of those black and brown commuters thanking Penny for saving their lives. Someone with far more balls than you have had your entire lifetime collectively, did something. Put aside his own life and liberty to protect people against your buddy. I've said over and over, that I will never lift a hand to save a woman being raped and murdered in the middle of the 16st Mall in Denver. If I save her, I am now the perp because I took away the "rights" of a rapist and murderer. I don't see that as a crime. I'm sure the woman with the knife to her throat would think I was the perp. And yet I would go to prison for doing that. So all in all, thanks for jumping in the deep end and not knowing how to swim!😎 nbcnews.com by oldedude on December 10, 2024 3:17 pm curt- Re: #5. Good post, agree. by Indy! on December 10, 2024 7:03 pm Turn off Fox, OD - it's melting your brain. The NYPD patrols the subways just like the streets. You think there's one cop for hundreds of miles of track? If you don't want to live in a big city - at least visit one so you know what they're actually like. by oldedude on December 10, 2024 8:48 pm Where did I reference FoxNews? by oldedude on December 10, 2024 9:07 pm What I went by was NBC "NEWS." So you're lying again. You told me to ever prove you were lying. Here is my first one. I'm using them as a source for the CRIMINAL CASE (I know you don't understand those words). To file criminally, the prosecution must show their cases and also produce their evidence to defense (through the 4th and 6TH Amendment and case law). From Title 28. (read both sources. law.justia.com uscourts.gov by Donna on December 11, 2024 6:50 am "But I think his blame was misplaced. Neely was apparently mentally ill. His family, his friends, "the system" should have protected Neely from himself. If Neely had some physical ailment, like blindness or the inability to walk which put him in potential danger, he probably would have received accommodations for his handicap." - Curt Right, but "the system" needs to know that a person needs help. Have you ever tried to get an adult who needs psychiatric help to go get that help? They go untreated if they refuse help. There are probably millions of adults in America who need pychiatric help, but never receive it solely because they don't think they need it. by oldedude on December 11, 2024 8:50 am The whole family "knew" he needed help. He refused to go. As Donna said before, that refusal supersedes the state's "right" to force him. Neely had multiple arrests and law enforcement contacts. Penny told law enforcement he was just going to let Neely rant until Neely started accosting the true victims, most of whom were outmatched by the age, size, and gender factors, not to mention the apparent drug issues (the scariest on). Penny knew nothing about Neely. All he saw was that there were going to be true victims being harmed or killed. Ergo, Penny met force with what he thought was going to be less than lethal, and the minimum force (shown to be correct in court) necessary to subdue Neely. I want to say here, that hold is actually meant to snap the neck. Penny had the wherewithal to apply only the pressure needed to subdue Neely. This hold is made for a single person (regardless of stature) to subdue and kill the opponent quickly by snapping the neck. Penny had too light of a hold on him to do that. And others (3 black males) joined him because Neely was hard to handle. Pulling the race card on this is just plain stupid. The white guy, with the assistance of Black guys were protecting a bunch of Blacks, Latinos, Asian, and white folk. Only a racist would believe it was racially motivated. If anything, the charges, trial and total PT Barnum fiasco by the city were racially and politically motivated. It was sad that Neely died. But what Penny did was the right thing for a real human being to do for other human beings. He should be the Poster Child for the Marine Corps. "No better friend, no worst enemy." by Curt_Anderson on December 11, 2024 9:25 am Donna, As you know in the past, a person could be committed for being mentally incompetent at the drop of a hat… or a relative’s say so. Camping and sleeping in public areas used to be a crime. Now the pendulum has swung too far in the other direction and we have crazy people wandering the streets. A court can order a criminal defendant to take antipsychotic drugs. The trick of courses they have to have committed a crime. Police used to enforce vagrancy laws. Perhaps the time has come to resurrect and update those old laws. by Indy! on December 11, 2024 9:42 am You have a lot to learn about racism, OD and you're not going to get it from Fox News. You also need to learn the definition of a "lie" going by your "NBC NEWS" post above. At least that (partially) explains why you can never find a lie of mine on the boards here. by Indy! on December 11, 2024 9:44 am Getting back to the choke hold - when you do that to a person, you know when they pass out because they go limp in your arms. How do I know that? Because as teens we used to do it to each other for fun. That is where the racist needed to let go of the victim. by Donna on December 11, 2024 9:51 am "Police used to enforce vagrancy laws. Perhaps the time has come to resurrect and update those old laws." - Curt Homelessness is a major crisis in America, especially in cities where the climate is more suitable for living outdoors, like L.A. Arresting someone for vagrancy won't help. So they get arrested. Then what? Where do they go? by Curt_Anderson on December 11, 2024 10:17 am Donna, Where do they go? I don’t know. Where did the would-be homeless go in the 1950s? America didn’t always have a large homeless population. If you are like me you didn’t see homeless and/or mentally disturbed people in the streets when you were a kid even in the big cities. by Indy! on December 11, 2024 10:48 am There were jobs back then. by Curt_Anderson on December 11, 2024 11:24 am Indy, The unemployment rate was higher in the 50s and 60s. It is about 4.2% now. It never gets much lower than that. Many homeless you see today are not employable and would never be employable in any economy now or in the past. In past decades Jordan Neely would have been institutionalized and not left to his own devices. by Indy! on December 11, 2024 11:45 am I hope you're joking, Curt. If not, you need to see this documentary... 1 Titicut Follies (1967) Of all the films on this list, Frederick Wiseman’s documentary on Massachusetts’s Bridgewater State Prison for the Criminally Insane may be the most horrifying and upsetting of all, as it is all entirely real. His camera wanders the cells, corridors, surgeries, and grounds and often simply observes, occasionally allowing for interviews. It is an enthralling and appalling deep dive into both the minds, illnesses, and acts of the people incarcerated there and those of the staff, institutions, and wider society who felt this environment was a suitable place for human beings. The Commonwealth of Massachusetts had the film banned outright, and it could only be legally shown to audiences composed of students and medical or legal practitioners until as late as 1992. The reason given was an “invasion of privacy” to those being filmed. However, many believed that the appalling scenes depicted and their reflection on the state’s provision were the primary motive. Screened to the cast before filming began on several movies on this list, Wiseman’s passive camera and interviews allow patients and staff to speak largely unguided, staff often unwittingly damning themselves by their own uninterested attitudes to their work. Little vignettes tell sad or upsetting stories, such as the doctor who can’t be bothered to put his cigarette out even when force-feeding a patient on camera, dropping his ash down the tube. These images provide unvarnished insight into a broken and dysfunctional system from which meaningful rehabilitation seems almost impossible.[10] listverse.com by meagain on December 11, 2024 11:53 am Take a look at Finland. It has 'cured' its homeless problem. However, I don't see how it can ever be fully cured. It is a necessary part of a Capitalist system. Capitalism needs a certain level of unemployment and relative if not absolute poverty to flourish - or survive. Inequality is an essential part and it will always grow worse because of the exploitive nature of capitalism, and greed. It will be cured eventually because it can only go so far before the underclasses explode. I give it 20 years at the outside before there is either economic and/or social collapse. If climate change does not do it sooner. by Curt_Anderson on December 11, 2024 12:02 pm Indy, The stars of Titicut Follies today would be living on the streets, below overpasses and in other public places. A cinematographer could make a rather depressing film documenting their daily existence. Institutions don’t have to be medieval in their approach. Btw, unemployment rates don’t correlate with homelessness rates. There are counties today with higher unemployment rates and lower rates of homelessness. by oldedude on December 11, 2024 12:06 pm Getting back to the choke hold - when you do that to a person, you know when they pass out because they go limp in your arms. How do I know that? Because as teens we used to do it to each other for fun. First. Read #14 again. You wouldn't have made such a fool of yourself if you did. That gives me a whole new chide when I want to use it. Maybe you went under too long too many times. LIE: A lie is a statement not in accordance with the mind of the speaker, made with the intention of deceiving. Depending on the context, a person who communicates a lie may be subject to social, legal, religious, or criminal sanctions2. Perjury, or the act of lying under oath, is a crime that can result in criminal and civil charges being pressed against the perjurer. [1, 2] LIKE I SAID, This hold is to snap the neck, or at least the hyoid bone fracture which is a common injury with strangulation. A chokehold is a way of holding someone with your arm tightly around their neck so that they cannot breathe easily. Choking someone out, is not a correct name, and legally this hold is a "strangulation" hold much like hanging someone. There are broken bones (vertebra separated, hyoid broken, etc). I'm "assuming" you didn't snap anyone's hyoid since you're not in prison from playing (unless you buried your friends pretty deep). That was my point. This hold is made to stop the enemy within seconds from the hold going into place. All the person has to do is to arch their back using leg and hip strength. Had he wanted to kill him, it would have been easy. It took four people to hold Neely down. That tells me Penny's hold was not to kill Neely. Neely had NO broken bones in his neck, no bruising from internal hemorrhaging from excessive force. Neely showed no signs of being strangulated. Those are the FACTS OF THE CASE, which you choose to avoid. Not choosing to look at facts are racist in this case. You are accusing the white guy of murder even when the facts don't support your racism and hatred of everyone. oxfordreference.com lawfaremedia.org by Indy! on December 11, 2024 12:13 pm Call me when you either have the "lie" I told above - or some other lie I actually told. Nothing I've said fits your definition, OD. Curt, now I know you have to be kidding. Those people are on the street because the US gov't (under Reagan mostly) decided the kind of treatment those people were getting in the Titticut Follies was TOO GOOD for them. That they - and society - did not NEED the institutions. So why would we now suddenly become sympathetic to their plight? Especially under Mayor McFatass and Leon trying to cut every dime they can that's not going to their billionaire pals? by Curt_Anderson on December 11, 2024 12:50 pm Indy, It wasn't just cold-hearted Republicans who created to the current problem of homelessness. Well-meaning Democrats saw the large state-operated "insane asylums" as a problem and sought to find a more humane community-based approach. The Community Mental Health Act of 1963 (CMHA)...was an act to provide federal funding for community mental health centers and research facilities in the United States. This legislation was passed as part of John F. Kennedy's New Frontier. It led to considerable deinstitutionalization. The purpose of the CMHA was to build mental health centers to provide for community-based care, as an alternative to institutionalization. At the centers, patients could be treated while working and living at home. Only half of the proposed centers were ever built; none was fully funded, and the act didn't provide money to operate them long-term. As passed in 1965 under LBJ, the law prohibits states from using Medicaid to pay for care provided in “institutions for mental disease” (IMDs), which are psychiatric hospitals or other residential treatment facilities that have more than 16 beds. en.wikipedia.org by oldedude on December 11, 2024 2:36 pm Indy- Of all the films on this list, Frederick Wiseman’s documentary on Massachusetts’s Bridgewater State Prison for the Criminally Insane may be the most horrifying and upsetting of all, as it is all entirely real. His camera wanders the cells, corridors, surgeries, and grounds and often simply observes, occasionally allowing for interviews. It is an enthralling and appalling deep dive into both the minds, illnesses, and acts of the people incarcerated there and those of the staff, institutions, and wider society who felt this environment was a suitable place for human beings. Things like this (there were hundreds of places "for the criminally insane" or just the insane. Horrible? absolutely. Huge problems with sexual abuse from the inmates and staff, sometimes the patients were pimped by the staff. People being locked to the heat radiators, we know that Russia and China still use the techniques, mostly because they disprove societal, racial, or cultural "superiority." Like was said earlier, is that we swung completely 180 degrees. So that usually isn't a good thing either. And what do we do about it? I honestly don't know. I think the "hospitals" were more corrupt and abusive than being on the outs, and yet what do we do with violent offenders that have psychological issues? Good post though. by Indy! on December 11, 2024 2:40 pm Well thanks for the props, OD. Violent offenders should be in some kind of prison/hospital that is safe for them and the people they might hurt. The others would require regular healthcare of some kind like we get in hospitals when we're not insane but they would be locked up to some degree too. It's a problem that has to be monitored continuously to make sure things don't return to where they were when that film was made. The other institutions where we have similar problems are the retirement homes. by Curt_Anderson on December 11, 2024 3:31 pm Here are the concluding paragraphs of the Washington Post editorial regarding the above discussed case. It pretty much echoes my sentiments. The editorial noted that "Neely had a number of prior hospitalizations and a long list of arrests for crimes including indecent exposure and assault, along with lower-level offenses. Reportedly, he was on a list of the city’s 50 most at-risk homeless individuals. Yet Neely remained in crisis, and in 2021 he assaulted two elderly women. Sentenced to a 15-month diversion program intended to treat his complex issues, Neely wandered away from the facility after less than two weeks." No one benefits when public parks, transit or sidewalks become substitute homeless shelters, driving away the broader public they are supposed to serve, or when the mentally ill are allowed to descend into the depths of their disease, in the mistaken belief that honoring their autonomy requires letting them become filthy, malnourished and psychotic. Certainly, no one benefits when citizens feel entitled — or forced — to freelance as police officers. Fixing this problem will require more police and lower tolerance of dangerous and disorderly conduct, as well as more funding for treatment beds, halfway houses and supportive housing where people like Neely can get help. Most of all, it will require stronger measures to ensure that people like Neely stay in treatment, including, when necessary, involuntary commitment. Americans are rightly wary of the state’s power to confine people against their will, which should always be used sparingly, humanely and as a last resort. But in cases such as this, the alternatives are worse. No one should be exposed to the dangers of untreated psychosis — least of all, the people suffering from it. washingtonpost.com by oldedude on December 11, 2024 3:53 pm Indy- I also agree with your assessment on retirement homes. Also I lived in DC Metro area for 11 years. I took the metro and trains a lot. From DC to NYC, Philly, and Boston. If you take a train somewhere, you're using the rail system while you're there. Just for the weekend for fun. by Indy! on December 11, 2024 6:09 pm Curt - The Titicut Follies was filmed in 1966 - after both of your gov't actions... The Community Mental Health Act of 1963 (CMHA)...was an act to provide federal funding for community mental health centers and research facilities in the United States. This legislation was passed as part of John F. Kennedy's New Frontier. It led to considerable deinstitutionalization. As passed in 1965 under LBJ, the law prohibits states from using Medicaid to pay for care provided in “institutions for mental disease” (IMDs), which are psychiatric hospitals or other residential treatment facilities that have more than 16 beds. So they obviously did not help very much. by Curt_Anderson on December 11, 2024 7:48 pm Indy, Bridgewater State Hospital was and is a state facility housing the criminally insane. The laws JFK and LBJ signed addressed other mental (non-criminal) institutions. by Donna on December 12, 2024 7:20 am Curt - The old homeless and the new homelessness in historical perspective Abstract In the 1950s and 1960s homelessness declined to the point that researchers were predicting its virtual disappearance in the 1970s. Instead, in the 1980s, homelessness increased rapidly and drastically changed in composition. The "old homeless" of the 1950s were mainly old men living in cheap hotels on skid rows. The new homeless were much younger, more likely to be minority group members, suffering from greater poverty, and with access to poorer sleeping quarters. In addition, homeless women and families appeared in significant numbers. However, there were also points of similarity, especially high levels of mental illness and substance abuse. pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov by Curt_Anderson on December 12, 2024 9:26 am Donna, What is the point of that abstract? It says in part that it is people living in “greater poverty, and with access to poorer sleeping quarters”. That is stating the obvious. That is like concluding that flames play a major role in forest fires. My point and the point of the WaPo editorial is that America took a wrong turn in regards homelessness and mental health problems since the 1950s. by Donna on December 12, 2024 9:32 am The abstract is just that - an abstract to a more detailed study. Homelessness has increased dramatically since the 50s, Curt. by meagain on December 12, 2024 10:11 am A major point of that abstract, Curt, would be to illustrate what I said earlier. Capitalism is the cause. The shift to greater homelessness and its makeup became notably stronger in the !980s. That is when the neoliberalism building fromthe70s triumphed. Most of the democratic world was by then under that right wing thrall. Thatcher and Reagan were just the two most prominent creators of a growing ub=ndercalss of the poor. Too much is made of the mental health component. Most of the homeless are homeless because they are too poor to buy or rent. The number of working homeless attests to that. by Curt_Anderson on December 12, 2024 11:32 am Meagain, We were capitalists when Eisenhower was president too. 70 years ago America had boarding houses. A person didn’t need a first month, last month and damage deposit to rent a room. The homeless you see on US streets are a long way from being a renter. Plus nowadays landlords can learn a prospective tenant’s rental history. Mental illness is part of homelessness but the solutions are distinct. by Curt_Anderson on December 12, 2024 11:32 am Meagain, We were capitalists when Eisenhower was president too. 70 years ago America had boarding houses. A person didn’t need a first month, last month and damage deposit to rent a room. The homeless you see on US streets are a long way from being a renter. Plus nowadays landlords can learn a prospective tenant’s rental history. Mental illness is part of homelessness but the solutions are distinct. by Curt_Anderson on December 12, 2024 11:32 am Meagain, We were capitalists when Eisenhower was president too. 70 years ago America had boarding houses. A person didn’t need a first month, last month and damage deposit to rent a room. The homeless you see on US streets are a long way from being a renter. Plus nowadays landlords can learn a prospective tenant’s rental history. Mental illness is part of homelessness but the solutions are distinct. by Indy! on December 12, 2024 11:41 am Why are you arguing this point that is easily proven with the facts, Curt? 🙄 usich.gov by meagain on December 12, 2024 12:36 pm Capitalism is a sold as humans but it only became a force in the 16th. century where it started in Amsterdam. It has been dominant since mid 185th. century so the USA has never been anything else. However, it suffered frequent collapses: Depressions and recessions. Liberalism allied with Capitalism in the 18th. century and intensified inequality and created deep widespread poverty. That was modified as Unionism, particularly, but not only that pushed back to give the welfare capitalism we had by Eisenhowers time. In the 1970s, the right calling itself Conservative, used its wealth and political power to regain its hold and establish neoliberalism as the dominant economic system. Thus the return to previously unheard levels of inequality and increased poverty both relative and absolute. Reagan and Thatcher were the champions of that. Wages have actually been stagnant since the 1970s. The Pandemic has intensified the shift by Curt_Anderson on December 12, 2024 1:10 pm Indy, The USich.gov site you provided offers questionable "facts". They are not even well-founded opinions. For example: Myth: People experiencing homelessness just need to get a job. Fact: While employment helps people stay housed, it does not guarantee housing. As many as 40%-60% of people experiencing homelessness have a job, but housing is unaffordable because wages have not kept up with rising rents. There is no county or state where a full-time minimum-wage worker can afford a modest apartment. At minimum wage, people have to work 86 hours a week to afford a one-bedroom. Me: Yes, they do need to get a job. A job would go a long way to solving their problems. Btw, who says that a minimum wage worker needs their own apartment? I never lived in an apartment. My first abodes after college dorms were rooms in a shared house. In Jackson County, Oregon where I live, a person can rent a room for around $500 a month. Minimum hourly wage here is $14.70. Fulltime, that works out to $2,469.60 per month. Btw, the wages shown on the state's job list in this area all start above minimum wage. If a person insists on having their own apartment, they can be had here for $1000 or less according to the most recent listing on Apartments.com. renthop.com apartments.com secure.emp.state.or.us by Indy! on December 12, 2024 3:46 pm So a family of four might be looking for 4 houses on one street that are renting rooms so each person would have a place to stay and they would be fairly close together. Got it - excellent plan. Exactly the kind I would expect given your insistence on disputing the reality of homelessness. by Curt_Anderson on December 12, 2024 6:06 pm “So a family of four might be looking for 4 houses on one street that are renting rooms so each person would have a place to stay and they would be fairly close together.”. Indy! Ok, I’ll bite. Why would a homeless family of four need four rooms in four different houses? Assuming it’s two parents and two young kids, they can rent an apartment for under $1000 or even a house for $1500 in this county. Since there are kids involved there is gov’t money for food. Just one working person in the family can swing that even at minimum wage. I am not saying they’ll be basking in luxury, but they’d be out of the elements, have a toilet, a kitchen, able to bathe and get a decent nights sleep. A big step up from being on street at night. Incidentally, the homeless I see around here don’t appear to be families. Mostly younger and middle-aged men. Show me somebody who is homeless and I’ll show you somebody who got in that fix as a result of some bad choices. By the way, even though Oregon’s minimum wage is about twice the national minimum wage (it’s $14.70 here and $15.95 in the Portland area) we are third in the per capita homeless rate behind NY and Vermont, two other states with cold winters and near double the federal minimum wage. by Indy! on December 12, 2024 7:46 pm You're well out of touch with reality. My guess is you haven't had to stretch a dollar since Nixon was prez. by Indy! on December 12, 2024 7:47 pm Forgot - the bad choices thing is straight out of the GOP. That's totally inaccurate as well. Nobody wants to be homeless - not even the insane folks wandering around out there. by Curt_Anderson on December 12, 2024 11:29 pm Indy, Nobody wants misfortune, but it’s usually preceded by “I shouldn’t have driven drunk”, “I shouldn’t have left my gun where the kids play”, “why did I think robbery would be easy?”, “maybe I should saved enough to make rent next month” and the like. Neely and people like him are not capable of good decisions. Drug and alcohol abusers made their bad choices when they became dependent. Ex-cons made their bad choices when they got a criminal record. I am not blaming people for their bad decisions. People run out of gas in the desert, get lost in the woods and fall through thin ice. But these people did not make the best choices. And to wind up, homeless means they probably made a series of bad decisions. by Donna on December 13, 2024 10:13 am I'm sure that many became homeless as a result of poor decisions, but it's wrong to generalize about it. Many people are virtually unemployable because of things like personality disorders and drug addictions. A dear friend of ours works for a non-profit job placement center in L.A. County, and she gets a lot of applicants who fall in that category. OTOH, there are plenty of homeless people who through no fault of their own fall into homelessness. by Indy! on December 13, 2024 10:54 am Last time I looked into it, medical expenses and job loss were the major causes of homelessness. And yes Curt - you are blaming the victims. 🙄 by Curt_Anderson on December 13, 2024 12:01 pm Indy, I specifically said, "I am not blaming people for their bad decisions." Medical expenses and job loss are NOT the major causes of homelessness. They may be a major cause of bankruptcy, though. Bankruptcy for the most part wipes the slate clean as it absolves people of certain crippling debts. If you lose your job and exhaust unemployment insurance and find yourself homeless and on the street, that indicates a series of bad decisions. Addiction and mental illness account for about 90% of the homeless population. Other reasons include PTSD (you'd be among the first to say joining the military was a bad decision), domestic abuse (choosing the wrong partner), etc. Some of the reasons overlap. The Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration (SAMHSA) estimates that roughly 38% of the homeless suffer from an alcohol dependency while 26% abuse drugs. According to the Treatment Advocacy Center, nearly one-third of the homeless suffer from a serious mental illness. addictionhelp.com by Indy! on December 13, 2024 12:06 pm You are blaming the victims. by Indy! on December 13, 2024 12:07 pm Here Curt - learn something... endhomelessness.org by Curt_Anderson on December 13, 2024 12:08 pm Indy, Ok, so who or what do think they are victims of? by Curt_Anderson on December 13, 2024 12:18 pm Indy, You have shared similar links claiming that it's the lack of affordable housing that causes homelessness. Using my county as an example, I refuted that by showing that a person earning even minimum wage can find an affordable place. Just using your own eyes and seeing the homeless people in your area, do you really think that they are just one hundred dollars or so short of making the monthly rent? by Indy! on December 13, 2024 12:24 pm Lack of actual homes is only one of the issues covered on the website (and btw, we actually have plenty of homes - the banks are just sitting on them for a bigger profit). Stop skimming and read it. by meagain on December 13, 2024 12:40 pm I don't know about your county, Curt, but homelessness is very much a large city problem and is almost entirely a problem of poverty and affordability. What causes poverty is sometimes addiction and/or mental health. That is not the case with most sufferers now. The great increase in homelessness in the past several years, particularly after the pandemic makes that clear. It is affordability and wage stagnation: plus job loss. There are not many places where minimum wage could even cover a room let alone an apartment. In Toronto, for example, it would require an increase in that wage of around eight dollars to afford an average one-bedroom apartment. Also, there are few countries where social benefits are close to enough. As I posted above, take a look at the Finish model. They have almost cured it. by Indy! on December 13, 2024 12:45 pm Curt does it the Repub way - he looks in the paper, finds the cheapest rental out there (the Roach Motel) and then claims everyone should be able to afford it. I think we all know from years of dealing with him that Curt hasn't had to stretch a dollar in probably 50 years. He's nice and comfortable and expects everyone else to have the same drive, smarts, education and good fortune to make it too. You know - just like the GOP. by Curt_Anderson on December 13, 2024 12:46 pm Indy, About 10% of the US housing inventory is always vacant at any one time. That includes unoccupied and available for sale or rent. That has always been the case. It's not feasible to have one occupant moving out simultaneous to another moving in. Since there is no reason for a bank or anybody to sit on a vacant home for long, I very much doubt that it happens often. People including banks might overvalue a house for awhile, but the lack of prospective buyers will soon disabuse them of their inflated notions. usafacts.org by Curt_Anderson on December 13, 2024 1:08 pm Meagain, You mentioned an "average apartment" in Toronto would require a certain income. If the choice is between between being homeless on the street or residing in a below average apartment, the reasonable person would choose living indoors. Although the inexpensive Toronto apartments listed below look rather nice. Incidentally, nobody has to live in Toronto. Most people live where they can afford to pay rent or buy a house. The minimum wage in Toronto is $17.20 per hour which is $2889 per month working fulltime. There are currently at least 20 places under $1000 available to rent in Toronto currently listed on Apartments.com. (sort by price) The unemployment rate in Toronto was recorded at 8.2%, in all of Canada it is 6.8%. That's higher than the US rate of 4.2%. Regardless of the statistics, a motivated person can always find work. I also suspect that Canada has various social safety net programs. apartments.com by Indy! on December 13, 2024 1:57 pm Curt, common sense would tell you if it's as easy as you're portraying - we wouldn't have any homeless people. You cannot live on a minimum wage salary in South Florida. Can't be done - UNLESS - you're living on the street. by Curt_Anderson on December 13, 2024 3:07 pm Indy, Let’s say you are right about housing costs and the job market in south Florida. Furthermore, a person with a limited skill set cannot find work paying more than Florida’s $13 minimum wage. How is it a reasonable decision to become homeless in south Florida rather than move to an area in the state (or beyond) where housing is more affordable and there are jobs to be had? I know you think these people are victims. They are victims of their own poor life choices. by meagain on December 13, 2024 6:20 pm 20 apartments, Curt. There are 11,000 homeless in Toronto: officially. The number is probably much higher. Toronto is as big as Chicago. Further, those apartments would be from the small proportion that are rent-geared-to-income stock. Subsidised. Unemployment rates. The rate is higher in Canada but not a lot. It is a different economy and the two countries calculate it differently. There is no need to go into details, but: To make the data from the two countries comparable, Statistics Canada adjusts Canadian data to US concepts. For example, in September 2024, Canada's unemployment rate was 1.3 percentage points higher than the United States when adjusted to US concepts. by Curt_Anderson on December 13, 2024 8:18 pm Meagain, You have said more than once in this thread that capitalism is a cause of homelessness. Maybe. There is something more pernicious not just to the homeless but people who struggle pay their rent or mortgage. For example, in many locales, city codes restrict house sizes and the number of dwellings on a lot. Building codes in many places discourage density and sprawling suburbs. In many places you cannot convert your garage into a small rental. Some places have maximum occupancy limits for dwellings. There are other codes and restrictions that reduce the availability of affordable places. It is an immutable law of economics, reduced supply puts pressure on demand and causes prices to go up. by Donna on December 14, 2024 8:00 am "How is it a reasonable decision to become homeless in south Florida rather than move to an area in the state (or beyond) where housing is more affordable and there are jobs to be had?" - Curt Most of the jobs and shelters, if you need one, are in the big cities. So are most of the facilities, like the YMCA, where many homeless people shower. by Curt_Anderson on December 14, 2024 10:04 am Donna, So you believe that south Florida’s homeless considered their situation, weighed the options, and reached the rational decision that it was better to be homeless there than move anywhere else. There are about 100 YMCAs scattered across Florida. Even smaller towns in Oregon have homeless shelters and services. I suspect it is similar in Florida. It’s true most jobs are in big cities, but a person only needs one, maybe two jobs. Incidentally Florida has shortage of workers in the agricultural sector and in construction especially roofers. As Indy said a person cannot afford a place in south Florida working minimum wage. So unless a person prefers living outdoors and rent-free why stay when there are more affordable areas in Florida? by Donna on December 14, 2024 12:11 pm The following is an AI generated answer to why homeless people congregate in big cities. Homeless people often live in big cities because of the concentration of support services like shelters, soup kitchens, and public transportation, which are more readily available in urban areas, coupled with the fact that large cities typically have higher housing costs and more income inequality, making affordable housing harder to find for low-income individuals. Key points: Accessibility of services: Cities tend to have a higher density of social service agencies and shelters that can assist homeless individuals, creating a "magnet effect" where people may gravitate to these areas for support. High housing costs: Major cities often have significantly higher rents and housing prices compared to smaller towns, making it difficult for people with low incomes to afford stable housing. Public transportation: Cities usually have extensive public transportation networks, which can be crucial for homeless individuals accessing services and navigating the area. Visible population: In a densely populated urban environment, homeless individuals may be more visible to the public, which can potentially lead to increased awareness and access to support. by meagain on December 14, 2024 1:05 pm I agree about Municipal codes, Curt, but it goes to every level of government. I don't know the background in the USA but in Canada, until a Conservative government in the 1990s ended it, the federal government was a big home builder. It was about ten years later that the price spike began - about 2005. It is not the last few years as most seem to think. The federal government now, under Trudeau, has got back into it, but not directly. It has allocated several billions to a programme where municipalities will receive money for building new. The interesting part is the conditions. They must build within existing boundaries and improve density. One of the requirements is that they must be affordable and they must have a mix of small apartments, four stories in residential areas. Be in transit hubs and a couple more. It has worked but is not nearly enough. A war time effort is needed like what followed WWII when the government built most of the housing. by Indy! on December 14, 2024 1:11 pm If I'm correctly interpreting what he's saying, he thinks that within the next 30 days, the US DoD will announce that they're extraterrestrial, and will initiate a false flag war to come to the rescue defeat them. Good lord. You actually think people are DECIDING to be homeless? You're even more out of touch than I imagined. by Indy! on December 14, 2024 1:12 pm Jebus. That was supposed to be in repsonse to this comment from Curt... How is it a reasonable decision to become homeless in south Florida rather than move to an area in the state (or beyond) where housing is more affordable and there are jobs to be had? This 1980s BBS stuff is getting old. Move into the 1990s at least, Curt. by Curt_Anderson on December 14, 2024 1:15 pm Donna, AI attempts to attribute logical and rational decision making to the homeless population. Reading that, you’d think homeless people are thoughtfully answering the question, “where is the best place to be ‘successfully’ homeless?”, rather than “where can I support myself and have an affordable place to live?”. As I noted (and cited) above, some 90% of homeless are either drug and alcohol addicted or suffering from mental illness. A smaller percent includes the formerly incarcerated and domestic abused. I suspect most of the homeless are “deciding” by not making any decisions at all about their lives and future. We are doing a disservice to the homeless when we pretend homelessness is a viable and unavoidable lifestyle option. by Indy! on December 14, 2024 2:21 pm We are doing a disservice to the homeless when we pretend homelessness is a viable and unavoidable lifestyle option. Nobody is doing that (or even thinking it) except you. Pretending like it's not a problem when it's ALWAYS been a problem (created for the reasons meagain cited) is not the answer. by Donna on December 14, 2024 2:47 pm We didn't have tent cities before the 80s. Whatever the causes, it's a huge crisis in the US that most people don't care about because it's not they who are homeless. Who here has a workable idea on how to fix it? No one, not here or anywhere. But fuxing it ir at least imoriving the sutuation is really all that matters. I know obe thing, though: It didn't happen in a vacuum. There wouldn't be tent cities in a well- functioning society. Sheri and I had to move to a different state to have a better life, but not everyone has $5,400 to do that. by Curt_Anderson on December 14, 2024 3:08 pm Donna, I suppose the $5400 was largely to haul your possessions to Tucson. You and Sheri didn’t contemplate living on the street as an alternative to AZ or someplace else. That’s because you can think clearly. I don’t hold with those who say the homeless should be free to live on the sidewalks, under bridges and in other public and private spaces. I don’t think it is a kindness not to address their root problems. A guy like Neely cannot survive on his own for long. According to invisiblepeople, it is illegal to be homeless in every state but Oregon and Wyoming. I don’t know if that is true or if it reflects current law. But there has been a change here in Oregon. WASHINGTON — The U.S. Supreme Court Friday sided with a local ordinance in Oregon that bans homeless people from sleeping outdoors, and local governments will be allowed to enforce those laws. If vagrancy were to be criminalized and enforced, there could be court mandated addiction counseling, mandated help for mentally ill, etc. invisiblepeople.tv oregoncapitalchronicle.com by Indy! on December 14, 2024 3:12 pm We had them during the Hoover Recession - but of course that was the worst economic time in history. So it says something we've returned there under the Reagan "Revolution" and his supply side voodoo economics. How do we solve it? Like a lot of problems - by fixing the tax system so it's somewhat fair again - like 90% tax on everything over $1M per year, etc... Put me in charge and I'll have it fixed the first year. by Donna on December 14, 2024 3:25 pm "The U.S. Supreme Court Friday sided with a local ordinance in Oregon that bans homeless people from sleeping outdoors, and local governments will be allowed to enforce those laws." - Curt So if they aren't allowed to sleep outdoors, where are they supposed to sleep? A shelter, perhaps. Good luck finding enough shelter spaces for all the homeless people who get arrested for sleeping outdoors. by Curt_Anderson on December 14, 2024 3:49 pm Donna, If you lost your job, to collect unemployment insurance pay in Oregon, the state requires you to perform 5 job search activities each week. Combined with a homeless shelter (we have shelters here, see first link) and counseling, it would not be cruel and unusual punishment to expect the same from the homeless population. ashland.news unemploymentcalculator.org by Indy! on December 14, 2024 6:28 pm You should see if tRump will give you the top seat at HUD, Curt. You're ready to according to Orange Man standards. by Donna on December 15, 2024 8:15 am CA has the same rule for collecting unemployment. I'm guessing that most if not all states have that requirement. Shelter space is a huge problem in NYC due to so many undocumented immigrants settling there. I'm guessing that many other cities are facing the same situation. by Curt_Anderson on December 15, 2024 12:08 pm Donna, It is not just undocumented immigrants. It is immigrants of all status. That immigrants are not legally allowed to work is another problem that could easily be solved by removing unnecessary restrictions. Under a federal law passed in 1996, asylum seekers are required to wait at least half a year after filing an asylum petition before being able to obtain authorization to work. This law requires that, once a person filed an asylum claim, he or she must wait 150 days before being able to apply for a work authorization, which can be granted no earlier than 180 days after the filing of the asylum claim. Often, because of technical issues and delays in processing work authorization requests, this time period is much longer. In 2020, the Trump administration introduced a change that more than doubled the period of time asylum seekers must wait to apply for work authorization from 150 days to 365 days. pingree.house.gov by Donna on December 16, 2024 10:38 am So Trump himself exacerbated the problem that he's promising to fix now through mass deportations. by Indy! on December 16, 2024 1:24 pm The Brown Shorts painted themselves into a corner as they often do. Their voters (even the undocumented ones) want illegal immigration nipped in the bud while tRumps billionaire owners want workers they can pay less than minimum wage. That's the silver lining when an absolute idiot / con artist bigot gets elected prez. Go To Top

Find old posts & articles

Show Most Recent Articles Articles by category: Politics+ Religion+ Law & Crime Military News Media History Health Sports+ Humor Entertainment Misc.

Report spam & abuse SelectSmart.com home page