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He Dreamed of Escaping Gaza. The World Watched Him Burned Alive
By Donna
October 21, 2024 5:42 am
Category: Crime

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A video of of Shaaban al-Dalou burning to death after an Israeli strike at a hospital has stoked criticism from Israel’s allies and highlighted the plight of people trapped in Gaza.

He was the son his mother boasted about: He memorized the entire Quran as a boy, and rose to the top of his university class. He wanted to become a doctor. But most of all, Shaaban al-Dalou dreamed of escape.

Since Israel launched its devastating retaliation for the Hamas-led attack just over a year ago, Mr. al-Dalou wrote impassioned pleas on social media, posted videos from his family’s small plastic tent and even launched a GoFundMe page calling out to the world for help getting out of the Gaza Strip.

Instead, the world watched him burn to death.

Mr. al-Dalou, 19, was identified by his family as the young man helplessly waving his arms, engulfed in flames, in a video that has become a symbol of the horrors of war for Gazans, trapped inside their blockaded enclave as the international community looks on.

On Oct. 14, Israel said it conducted a “precision strike” on a Hamas command center operating near Al Aqsa Martyrs Hospital in Deir al Balah, a coastal city in central Gaza. Dozens of families like the Dalous, forced to flee their homes, had set up tents in a parking lot inside the hospital compound. They had hoped that international laws forbidding most attacks on medical facilities would ensure their safety.

The Israeli military said that the fire that erupted afterward was probably caused by “secondary explosions,” without specifying what that meant. It added that “the incident is under review.”

As fire consumed the Dalou family’s tent, Mr. al-Dalou’s father, Ahmed, ran back inside. He carried his young son, and then his two older daughters, out to safety. By the time he turned back, it was too late for his eldest son.

“I could see him, sitting there, he was lifting his finger and praying,” he said, referring to the Muslim shahada, a creed of faith recited upon birth and at death. “I called out to him: ‘Shaaban, forgive me, son! Forgive me! I can’t do anything.’”

Mr. al-Dalou died the day before his 20th birthday. The moment of his death was not only seared into his father’s memory — it was circulated around the world.

The images of people in that camp burning alive, among them also Mr. al-Dalou’s mother, prodded even Israel’s staunchest ally, the United States, to question that attack.

Linda Thomas-Greenfield, the U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, said on Wednesday that she had “watched in horror as images from central Gaza poured across my screen.”

“There are no words, simply no words, to describe what we saw,” she said in a statement to the United Nations. “Israel has a responsibility to do everything possible to avoid civilian casualties, even if Hamas was operating near the hospital.”

The video of the burning body, which the family identified as Mr. al-Dalou, was geolocated by The New York Times to the location of the camp in Al Aqsa Martyrs Hospital.

Mr. al-Dalou, who had become sickly from trauma and malnutrition amid the ever-worsening siege, often confided in his aunt, Karbahan al-Dalou, about his ideas for escaping Gaza.

“His plan was to get himself out, and then find a way to get out his sisters and his brothers and his parents,” she said in an interview with The Times, as she sat in the hospital room of her daughter Tasnim, who was recovering from shrapnel injuries to her stomach from the same strike.

Mr. al-Dalou also turned to the internet, contacting activists abroad who have helped Gazans set up fund-raising pages online.

“You have to open your heart for us. I am nineteen and I buried my dreams,” he wrote in one Instagram post. “Support me to find them again!”

The campaign raised over $20,000. But even if it had been enough to pay the exorbitant fees to arrange an escape out of Gaza for him and some of his relatives, the effort was futile: Since May, Israel has closed the Rafah border crossing into Egypt, making such exits impossible.






Cited and related links:

  1. nytimes.com

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Comments on "He Dreamed of Escaping Gaza. The World Watched Him Burned Alive":

  1. by HatetheSwamp on October 21, 2024 5:50 am

    NYTimes.

    It shocks me that the NYT is so antisemitic. I'm still waiting for tear-jerking articles on the innocent victim of 10/7 terrorism.


  2. by Donna on October 21, 2024 5:57 am

    The NY Times published loads of articles like the one you describe.

    What does it feel like to have no empathy? Do you feel dead inside?





  3. by HatetheSwamp on October 21, 2024 6:00 am

    Why do you make baseless claims.

    And, I was touched by the story... which reminded me that you are callous over the ongoing suffering of the people of Israel.


  4. by Donna on October 21, 2024 6:25 am

    I'm glad that the story touched you. I've wept while reading articles about killings of innocent people on both sides.


  5. by meagain on October 21, 2024 7:28 am
    There is a plethora of similar stories. A doctor whose wife and three children were killed. American, and British civilian aid workers killed. So far, 1500 child amputees. I deliberately don't talk about them because I want rational calculations to solve this. How to force a cease-fire and withdrawal and to force and enforce a two state solution.


  6. by Ponderer on October 21, 2024 7:51 am

    Bill, what a putrid excuse for a human being you are sometimes.


  7. by Indy! on October 21, 2024 9:42 am

    The only leverage we have is to cut off Israel.


  8. by Curt_Anderson on October 21, 2024 10:04 am
    Sad, tragic and awful. So why aren’t international ships pulling up to Gaza allowing people like that young man to leave? He just wanted out.


  9. by Donna on October 21, 2024 10:07 am

    Do you think that Israel would allow that, Curt?





  10. by Indy! on October 21, 2024 10:08 am

    Just a guess? Israel is probably blockading any help and since we support Israel no matter how criminal they act - other countries step aside to defer to our (horrible) juidgement.


  11. by Donna on October 21, 2024 10:18 am

    Curt, Shaaban tried to leave Gaza.

    Visit the link below. They explain the obstacles in trying to flee Gaza.

    quora.com


  12. by Curt_Anderson on October 21, 2024 10:25 am
    Even if Israel had some sort block on Gazans leaving, I am sure it could be negotiated that Gazans should be able to leave. Besides, Egypt controls one border of Gaza, the Rafah crossing. So the ships could pull up next to Egypt.


  13. by Donna on October 21, 2024 10:25 am

    From the same NY Times piece:

    "His plan was to get himself out, and then find a way to get out his sisters and his brothers and his parents,” she said in an interview with The Times, as she sat in the hospital room of her daughter Tasnim, who was recovering from shrapnel injuries to her stomach from the same strike.


    Mr. al-Dalou also turned to the internet, contacting activists abroad who have helped Gazans set up fund-raising pages online.


    “You have to open your heart for us. I am nineteen and I buried my dreams,” he wrote in one Instagram post. “Support me to find them again!”

    The campaign raised over $20,000. But even if it had been enough to pay the exorbitant fees to arrange an escape out of Gaza for him and some of his relatives, the effort was futile: Since May, Israel has closed the Rafah border crossing into Egypt, making such exits impossible.

    In a text exchange from May that his aunt showed The Times, Mr. al-Dalou asked her if his recurrent illnesses might qualify him for a medical evacuation, which have occasionally taken place. She replied that it was unlikely, and that even a friend “whose sister lost an eye, they are struggling to find a way to get her out.”

    Yet she said her nephew, who often joined her in her tent for lunch, seemed unflappable. He would watch the news, analyze speeches by Israel’s prime minister, and tell her: “Be optimistic, all will be well. God willing, God will help us, auntie,” she recalled.


    It was a different story among his friends, said his cousin and schoolmate Mohyeddin al-Dalou. During the war, the two often whiled away wistful evenings on the beach.

    Mr. al-Dalou used to spin dreams of going abroad to get a Ph.D. in software engineering, which he had studied in his last two years at Al-Azhar University in Gaza. He had already forsaken his ambition to become a doctor, his cousin said, because his family could not afford the cost of those studies.

    As the war dragged on, he said, Mr. al-Dalou’s vision of escape transformed from traveling to dying.

    “More and more, he would tell me that he wanted to be martyred, he wanted to be with his friends who were martyred, with his grandfather and grandmother in heaven,” he said.



  14. by meagain on October 21, 2024 11:21 am
    Egypt controls the Rafah crossing in theory. The Israelis have closed it and occupied the border strip to prevent Gazans from leaving.


  15. by Donna on October 21, 2024 11:26 am

    Israel has no plan for Gazans besides "Fuck 'em".


  16. by Indy! on October 21, 2024 11:36 am
    by Curt_Anderson on October 21, 2024 10:25 am
    Even if Israel had some sort block on Gazans leaving, I am sure it could be negotiated that Gazans should be able to leave. Besides, Egypt controls one border of Gaza, the Rafah crossing. So the ships could pull up next to Egypt.



    Others already destroyed the "should be able to leave" part, so I will just address the "negotiation" part... This is how it should go...

    1) Biden calls up Netanyahoo

    2) Netanyahoo answers phone

    3) Biden says "Let the Gazans leave, you get nothing from us until every one of them who wants to leave is out"

    4) Netanyahoo says "No weapons to 'defend' ourselves in the meantime?"

    5) Biden: "Click"


  17. by Donna on October 21, 2024 11:40 am

    We can dream.

    Israel's siege on Gaza could be the thing that puts Trump back in power.




  18. by HatetheSwamp on October 21, 2024 12:28 pm

    Donna/Curt,

    I don't think "that feckless dementia-ridden piece of crap" has that authority in our Constitutional Representative Republic.


  19. by Donna on October 21, 2024 12:34 pm

    What authority are you referring to?


  20. by HatetheSwamp on October 21, 2024 12:42 pm

    "What authority are you referring to?"

    Donna,

    The authority to...

    "1) Biden calls up Netanyahoo

    2) Netanyahoo answers phone

    3) Biden says "Let the Gazans leave, you get nothing from us until every one of them who wants to leave is out"

    4) Netanyahoo says "No weapons to 'defend' ourselves in the meantime?"

    5) Biden: "Click""

    You progressive Swampcultists accuse Trump of wanting to be a dictator but, truth? You want your President to be, exactly, a Big Brother dictator. But, not in this America!


  21. by Donna on October 21, 2024 12:49 pm

    I liked Indy's imaginary phone call because that's the only leverage the US has to end the siege on Gaza. But I understand that cutting off aid would have to be approved by the group that approved that aid, which is Congress.



  22. by HatetheSwamp on October 21, 2024 12:57 pm

    Bang on, Donna.

    It's a failure of the Former Trucker's leadership that he doesn't negotiate with Congress.


  23. by Donna on October 21, 2024 1:03 pm

    I agree that Biden has been wrong on that issue, but Congress would vote against cutting of aid to Israel anyway.


  24. by Donna on October 21, 2024 1:03 pm

    woukdn't


  25. by Donna on October 21, 2024 1:05 pm

    wouldn't

    Sheesh, it took 3 times. LOL!


  26. by Indy! on October 21, 2024 1:28 pm

    If only it were that simple. Oh wait... it is:

    1) Biden makes the call to Netanyahoo (etc...).

    2) Congress says "no"

    3) Biden says everything - including the budget that pays your salary - will be veto'd until CONgress says yes.

    BOOM! Problem 2 solved.

    =======================


    The really BIG question...

    How long before America realizes they need to put Indy in charge? 😌


  27. by Curt_Anderson on October 21, 2024 3:46 pm
    Most of the people here seemingly have great sympathy for Gazans and little to none for Israel. Nearly everybody here is willing to write the hostages off. That's just the way Hamas wants it.

    In any other war or conflict, the losing side at this point would have surrendered and returned the hostages. But the problem is that Hamas hates Jews more than they care for Gazans. Most societies see the deaths of their citizens and destruction of their buildings as a tragedy and a tremendous loss. For Hamas it's glorious martyrdom and a propaganda win.


  28. by HatetheSwamp on October 21, 2024 3:51 pm

    "the problem is that Hamas hates Jews more than they care for Gazans."

    As do some SS posters.

    Preach it, bruh!


  29. by meagain on October 21, 2024 4:23 pm
    Everybody had sympathy for Israel, Curt, but it has forfeited that with its brutality. It is Netanyahu who has written the hostages off. They have become the pawns in his game to rehabilitate himself and avoid the criminal conviction that was coming to him.

    And the Gazans have every reason to hate Israel. How would you like to spend your whole life in what has been called the world's largest open prison with a foreign occupier dictating what you can and cannot do: maintaining a blockade that allows only imports it approves into your country? And, routinely murders your citizens. It does not seem to be well known that Israel has killed 5 times as many Gazans, mostly boys throwing stones and similar 'heinous' actions, as Hamas terrorists have murdered Israeli citizens.

    A diplomatic solution was always available and Netanyahu refused.


  30. by Curt_Anderson on October 21, 2024 4:54 pm
    Meagain,
    That's what I said. You don't have sympathy for Israelis. Nor have said that hostages should be returned. You said it's a card for Hamas to play.

    Israel gave Gaza back to the Palestinians. The Israeli disengagement from Gaza began with Operation "Yad l'Achim" (Hebrew: מבצע יד לאחים, "Giving brothers a hand"). Certainly Israel has had a contentious relationship with Hamas which since it's inception has not recognized Israel's right to exist. Any country with such a hostile neighbor would want safeguards in place to keep them at arms length.

    Israel occupied the Gaza Strip during the Six Day War, capturing it from Egypt along with the Sinai peninsula. In 1970, the first Israeli settlement was built. In 1993, as part of the Oslo Accords, the Palestine Liberation Organization and Israel agreed to an outline for Palestinians to self-govern in the Palestinian territories. In 1994, Israel withdrew from Gaza City and Jericho, giving civilian and city functions to the Palestinian Authority. The Second Intifada [violent uprising] broke out, and peace process negotiations halted.

    In 2005, 21 Israeli settlements in the Gaza Strip and four Israeli settlements in the West Bank were unilaterally dismantled.[1] Israeli settlers and army evacuated from inside the Gaza Strip, redeploying its military along the border.[2] The disengagement was conducted unilaterally by Israel; in particular, Israel rejected any coordination or orderly hand-over to the Palestinian Authority.[3] Despite the disengagement, the Gaza Strip is still considered to be occupied under international law.


    en.wikipedia.org


  31. by Donna on October 21, 2024 4:56 pm

    I have sympathy for the 120+ victims of the October 7th massacre and the people who loved them, as I do for the thousands of Israelis in northern Israel who had to be displaced due to Hezbollah's bombing campaign that is a response to Israel's annihilation of Gaza and the humanitarian disaster that followed and is still going on.

    If Israel had responded as I've suggested several times on this forum, Hamas would probably be more amenable to a prisoner swap for all of the hostages, as was already negotiated once for some of the hostages. As meagain said, it's Netanyahu who hasn't given a rat's ass about the hostages.

    Hamas and the Israeli hardliners are two sides of the same coin. Both are primitive and barbaric and addicted to vengeance.





  32. by Donna on October 21, 2024 4:57 pm

    I meant 1200 victims.


  33. by Curt_Anderson on October 21, 2024 5:04 pm
    "I have sympathy for the 120+ victims of the October 7th massacre and the people who loved them..." --Donna

    Did you mean, I have sympathy for the victims including the 1,180 killed, 3,400 wounded and 251 taken captive of the October 7th massacre and the people who loved them.?

    One of the times Israel agreed to a prisoner swap, they released Yahya Sinwar. You know how that worked out for Israel.









  34. by Indy! on October 21, 2024 5:22 pm

    Curt:
    by Curt_Anderson on October 21, 2024 3:46 pm
    Most of the people here seemingly have great sympathy for Gazans and little to none for Israel. Nearly everybody here is willing to write the hostages off. That's just the way Hamas wants it.



    As I have stated every time this nonsense comes up - I do not have sympathy for either. Unlike you, Curt - I do not take everything our government says as the gospel truth. I SURELY don't take ANYTHING Netanyahoo says as the gospel truth. But if it will allow you to sleep better tonight...

    Hamas is evil and doesn't care about finding an answer. I have never shown sympathy for their actions on this board or anywhere else.

    Israel is also evil and doesn't care about finding an answer - however they are also the oppressors in this dog fight whether you want to believe it or not. That is the only thing I see different between the two of them. As meagain noted - the Israelis are killing people in greater numbers even though there is no need to. And if you have a chat with some honest former IDF people they will tell you they committed atrocities like leveling homes with the families still inside them and/or shot kids who did nothing except call them names.


  35. by Indy! on October 21, 2024 5:24 pm

    Oh forgot...

    FUCK HAMAS

    and

    FUCK ISRAEL



    Nuke the site from orbit - it's the only way to be sure. 😎


  36. by Donna on October 21, 2024 5:29 pm

    Israel was stupid to exchange 1,027 Palestinian prisoners for one Israeli - Gilad Shalit. And btw, Sinwar isn't the only Palestinian released who later killed Israelis.






  37. by Donna on October 21, 2024 5:41 pm

    "Most of the people here seemingly have great sympathy for Gazans and little to none for Israel." - Curt

    Sounds like something you might hear Sean Hannity say, only he'd begin with "Most Democrats", which would be equally mendacious.

    Btw, there have been close to 1,200 killings of Palestinians, including women and children every fucking week since October 7, 2023, and I've seen very little sympathy for them on this forum. So you can go fuck yourself, Curt.







  38. by Curt_Anderson on October 21, 2024 6:07 pm
    You guys! I appreciate the affirmation, but just because I was correct in stating that many here have little to no sympathy for Israelis doesn't mean you have be restate so dramatically.

    "Everybody had sympathy for Israel, Curt, but it has forfeited that with its brutality."
    ""I have sympathy for the 120+ victims of the October 7th massacre..."
    "I do not have sympathy for either."



    On a side note. I see a lot of sympathy for the Gazans from people on this site.







  39. by oldedude on October 21, 2024 7:02 pm
    The US Intelligence sector has released two classified documents in the last four days that were classified TS and was only between the countries. Bibi did it as a favor to pedojoe. He can't keep track of his shit. Blinken is on his way to the region. He'll be lucky if they let him land in Israel. Much less get anyone other than a street vendor to talk to. The Israelis are really pissed. pedojoe, kammy and her kuck are expected to find out who did it and take appropriate actions (10-25 years is pretty typical in fed prison). If they don't, we just lost all our eyes and ears globally. No one will talk to us. This happened with SoS cliton also with the british also. This administration isn't known to take any intel information seriously. So as far as pedojoe "demanding" anything from Israel? 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
    "click" That's all they'll get.

    Israel not getting bombs? Fine. If the US does that, they hold ZERO sway over the Israelis. They'll just hang up on pedojoe, and follow through on their own style of war. And the guy that died? There will be tens of thousands of him. Iran and Israel will start a global nuclear war. So. For the fucking moron(s) that released that to the press, thanks a whole fucking lot.


  40. by Indy! on October 21, 2024 8:23 pm

    This administration isn't known to take any intel information seriously.

    You mean like "Bin Laden Determined to Attack the United States" serious? Or "Gee, maybe we should have looked into those Saudis who wanted to learn how to fly planes, but not to land them" serious? 🤔


  41. by oldedude on October 22, 2024 8:42 am
    Those aren't leaks.


  42. by oldedude on October 22, 2024 9:10 am
    Donna,
    Obviously, I'm not condoning the intentional targeting of civilians, like I've said over and over. It did sound like this guy was trying to get out of Dodge and was doing the right thing. And his family, also. I agree, that's extremely sad. It shouldn't happen.

    IF a country or entity sets up communication centers, missile launchers, or military command centers surrounded by civilians, that is also a war crime. And they do it a lot. And just for this reason. These groups view their civilian population an "expendable source of recruitment" and that's all. They actually prefer for civilians to die. I'm sure this story is slammed all over the dark web by Hamas. Why? It's a recruiting ploy for them.

    I also have an issue with being "burned alive." That would indicate the Israelis are using Napalm and White Phosphorus. Both of those really aren't of use in this scenario. If the terrorist group had liquid petroleum or something like that, okay.

    The flip side, if the original writer of the story wanted to add umpf to the story, burning to death is justifiably abusive and cruel. That's pretty much at the top of my list of "how I don't want to die." So I'm questioning that point about the story, AND everything I said in the first paragraph still holds firm. Regardless of the method of death, a good person doing the right thing was killed and that's a shame.


  43. by Indy! on October 22, 2024 9:46 am

    by oldedude on October 22, 2024 8:42 am
    Those aren't leaks.


    No, those were warnings we were about to be attacked and the Bush admin blew them off as not important enough to address - costing close to 4000 American lives on our soil, 10K or so on foreign soil and $5 TRILLION and counting in military waste. But go on about how a couple IDF soldiers MIGHT have been killed because Biden knows more about the situation than you do.


  44. by Indy! on October 22, 2024 9:47 am

    "Military expert"

    LOL. 😂


  45. by oldedude on October 22, 2024 11:10 am
    If you could actually "know" anything about the subject, you'd know the difference between "leaks" (my point by this administration giving away TS information across the media), and not convincing the top tier your information is correct. Two entirely different issues.

    anything "Expert"
    🤣

    If you don't know that difference, you just need to go back to your "friends" in the cartels and Hamas. They both are raping little girls, you ought to fit right in princess.


  46. by meagain on October 22, 2024 12:12 pm
    UN facilities are not war crimes, od. Doctors without Borders facilities are not war crimes. But, they have both been targeted and their personnel killed. And I don't think every hospital in Gaza and every school is shielding Hamas. In fact, the whole idea of Hamas active militants hiding behind civilians is, in my opinion, deliberate propaganda. Hamas does not have that many soldiers.


  47. by Indy! on October 22, 2024 12:14 pm

    OD was never in the military. He's at home furiously flipping thru his Dad's pile of Jane magazines trying to keep up with us.


  48. by Ponderer on October 22, 2024 1:50 pm

    "On a side note. I see a lot of sympathy for the Gazans from people on this site." -Curt

    Well noted, Curt. Thanks.

    It's a question of the comparison of scale. That's why the MAGA Hats here don't get it. To them everything is equal to everything else, and scale be damned. Everything is an equitable comparison to them because they don't know what an equitable comparison even is.


  49. by HatetheSwamp on October 22, 2024 2:19 pm

    I can't speak for the MAGA Hats, but...

    I have a ton of sympathy for the Gazans but I'm free of JewHate. I know that the root of their problem is a result of the tyranny of Hamas which has enslaved them.



  50. by oldedude on October 22, 2024 3:52 pm
    UN facilities are not war crimes, od. Doctors without Borders facilities are not war crimes. But, they have both been targeted and their personnel killed.
    Wrong. Article 18 of the Fourth Geneva Convention is precise: “Civilian hospitals organized to give care to the wounded and sick, the infirm and maternity cases, may in no circumstances be the object of attack, but shall at all times be respected and protected by the Parties to the conflict.”

    And I don't think every hospital in Gaza and every school is shielding Hamas.
    Nor do I. And the ones that are excluded from protection. And I think it's an important piece of the conflict. Just like a sniper in a mosque. They can usually tell by heat signatures in the ground. People look different than a missile battery.

    In fact, the whole idea of Hamas active militants hiding behind civilians is, in my opinion, deliberate propaganda. Hamas does not have that many soldiers.

    Hamas Soldiers- 20,000–40,000 Hamas "soldiers." Not including those ISIL, Taliban, and other groups that support them (yes, some British, Americans, Germans, etc) And we know, that every time you whine about killing civilians, they also kill active Hamas soldiers. That would tell me that you're wrong. And I will also say there are times where there are mistakes in war. Those need to be kept to an absolute minimum. Zero would be a great number to go for.

    bing.com


  51. by Curt_Anderson on October 22, 2024 4:05 pm
    "It's a question of the comparison of scale." --Ponderer

    I don't believe it is a question of the comparison of scale. The implication there is that whichever side kills fewer people and suffers the greater number casualties is the "better" side, more deserving of sympathy.

    For instance, many more Germans, both military and civilians, died in the WWII than did any of the military personnel and civilians of any of the Allied nations. The Germans are not seen as morally superior because they suffered more losses.

    As I have said, any other nation taking the number of casualties that Gaza has suffered would have surrendered long ago. Hamas could end this today with the return of the hostages. However, Hamas is happy to sacrifice the Gazan population for the propaganda value of those deaths.

    I believe it is a question of intent. Israel's intent is to get the hostages back and secondarily to wipe out Hamas. Hamas wants to wipe out the Jews. I don't think it's much more complicated than that.
    en.wikipedia.org


  52. by Indy! on October 22, 2024 5:28 pm

    Until you consider the speculation about Israel (read: Netanyahoo) purposely extending the war because he's a sociopath.


  53. by oldedude on October 22, 2024 9:03 pm
    Curt- I agree with you on this. I think they expected much more assistance from Iran and "Lebanon" before this. Until the Israelis vaporized the Hamas Leader. You notice what weak response there was from that. Israel will strike again (Mostly without the US knowledge or support. They don't trust the pedojoe regime because of the leaks. So they will do it, and we are blind and "responsive."

    As I have said, any other nation taking the number of casualties that Gaza has suffered would have surrendered long ago. Hamas could end this today with the return of the hostages. However, Hamas is happy to sacrifice the Gazan population for the propaganda value of those deaths.

    We're dealing with fact, not speculation. They keep the war going (fact) Just today, they lobbed missiles into Israel. Did Israel tell them to do that? I don't think so. Did the Israelis initiate the war? No. Simple as that. The Israelis didn't "just attack a sovereign Nation." They attacked a "national army" that had had attacked them. So screw'em.

    Hamas deserves what they get. We know the "general population" say they don't like them. That's fine, except their "army" grew after 10/7. huh. Everyone felt they could rape women and children and nothing would happen to them. Now that they're in.... things are different. Now the Jews are winning, and princesses "buddies" are losing their arses. Who the F**k do the radical Islamists blame (because like "princess" they whine when they're beaten, because that's when mommy rescued it from daddy and it's friends).

    They can't even beat Israel. And they know once they do that, they'll go to Europe and Amerika. except now they must do it princesses way. house to house. And of course it doesn't believe they can lose. Welcome to the war asshole. Now you're fighting unregulated militia with no ties to the UN or Rules of war charter. With very specific hatred of terrorists, and WANT to murder them in whatever way they decide to. So we can burn "princess" to death and no one can say shit. I'm okay with that. It's going to be "Witch trials" all over again! I can hardly wait!


  54. by Indy! on October 23, 2024 10:40 am

    OD - serious question...

    How sad is it to spend your entire life hoping for that big world war that never comes? Does it suck hard knowing you're a scared rabbit trying to scare everyone else and no one cares because we're not paranoid nutjobs? Just curious... 🤔


  55. by meagain on October 23, 2024 11:13 am
    Far more Chinese and Japanese than German, Curt but what does that signify? I don't see your logic. Moral superiority is irrelevant on that scale. That is a simple a reflection of the type and scale of each country's warfare.

    And why would a nation surrender to an occupier? Would you call for surrender in that circumstance? In Worsworth's words to Napoleon. "We must be free or die who speak the language Shakespeare spake." Them's my sentiments.


  56. by Curt_Anderson on October 23, 2024 11:35 am
    Meagain,
    Israel is not an occupier. Certainly not in the same way that Russia is in Ukraine. Israel is motivated to find and retrieve the hostages, not gain territory. In fact Israel gave the Palestinians Gaza in 2005. Google “Israel disengagement Gaza”.

    Moral superiority is relevant because humans tend to root for and sympathize with the perceived good guys. Even better if the good guys are the underdogs. Given Hamas’s terrible atrocities, treatment of minorities, barbaric treatment of gays, etc., few westerners would consider them the good guys. But if Hamas can goad Israel into overplaying their heavy hand, they can win the support of you and others.


  57. by Ponderer on October 23, 2024 2:19 pm

    "Israel is not an occupier. Certainly not in the same way that Russia is in Ukraine." -Curt


    Israel is not an occupier of Palestinians in the same way that prison guards are not occupiers of the prisoners' cells.




  58. by Indy! on October 23, 2024 2:34 pm

    Israel is motivated to find and retrieve the hostages, not gain territory.

    And some folks claim Indy is the one doesn't know anything about Israel. Israel has been - and continues - to take property that doesn't belong to them. They might not be doing that with the current situation (if you believe Netanyahoo) - but it is their bread and butter the rest of the time.


  59. by Donna on October 23, 2024 6:14 pm

    Israel's missiles already killed some Israeli hostages. It's clear to me that killing Hamas leaders was and still is Netanyahu's #1 priority.


  60. by Indy! on October 23, 2024 9:08 pm

    Stealing the land is what creates the war that creates the temporary break in stealing the land.

    Rinse,

    Recycle,

    Repeat...

    ...for thousands and thousands of years.


  61. by Curt_Anderson on October 23, 2024 10:51 pm
    And some folks claim Indy is the one doesn't know anything about Israel. Israel has been - and continues - to take property that doesn't belong to them." ---Indy

    There is a reason that some folks claim Indy is the one doesn't know anything about Israel. Israel did just the opposite of what you said. They gave away property that belonged to them.

    "The summer of 2005 was a highly charged time in Israel - emotionally, politically and religiously. Prime Minister Ariel Sharon made the decision to unilaterally disengage from Gaza, thus removing some 8,800 Israelis from their homes and communities that they had known for 30+ years and giving the segment of land to the Palestinians."


    en.wikipedia.org
    ndtv.com
    unpacked.education


  62. by oldedude on October 24, 2024 6:12 am
    How sad is it to spend your entire life hoping for that big world war that never comes? Does it suck hard knowing you're a scared rabbit trying to scare everyone else and no one cares because we're not paranoid nutjobs?

    The answer is obvious.


  63. by oldedude on October 24, 2024 6:14 am
    You have your head up your butt.


  64. by Indy! on October 24, 2024 10:41 am

    Too late to "fix" that one, OD. You're a riot - but not for the reason you think. 😂


  65. by Indy! on October 24, 2024 10:43 am
    by Curt_Anderson on October 23, 2024 10:51 pm
    And some folks claim Indy is the one doesn't know anything about Israel. Israel has been - and continues - to take property that doesn't belong to them." ---Indy

    There is a reason that some folks claim Indy is the one doesn't know anything about Israel. Israel did just the opposite of what you said. They gave away property that belonged to them.

    "The summer of 2005 was a highly charged time in Israel - emotionally, politically and religiously. Prime Minister Ariel Sharon made the decision to unilaterally disengage from Gaza, thus removing some 8,800 Israelis from their homes and communities that they had known for 30+ years and giving the segment of land to the Palestinians."



    So 20 years ago they gave back SOME of the land they stole. And why did they do that? Because they wanted to play nice? Or because pressure from the world (and his own country) forced Netanyahoo to pull back a little just like it forced Botha to give up HIS apartheid state?

    Your a child in a man's world, Curt. Not unlike OD.


  66. by Curt_Anderson on October 24, 2024 11:10 am
    Indy, to disabuse yourself of your misconceptions, read "A brief history of Gaza's 75 years of woe". Read the entire article. Gaza was never a land possessed by Gazans. I've highlighted some important dates and events.

    Oct 10 (Reuters) - Gaza is a coastal strip of land that lay on ancient trading and maritime routes along the Mediterranean shore. Held by the Ottoman Empire until 1917, it passed from British to Egyptian to Israeli military rule over the last century and is now a fenced-in enclave, inhabited by over 2 million Palestinians.

    1950s & 1960s - Egyptian military rule
    Egypt held the Gaza Strip for two decades under a military governor, allowing Palestinians to work and study in Egypt. Armed Palestinian "fedayeen," many of them refugees, mounted attacks into Israel, drawing reprisals.

    1967 - War and Israeli military occupation
    Israel captured the Gaza Strip in the 1967 Middle East war [aka Six-Day War].

    (Wikipedia)In the months prior to the outbreak of the Six-Day War in June 1967, tensions again became dangerously heightened: Israel reiterated its post-1956 position that another Egyptian closure of the Straits of Tiran to Israeli shipping would be a definite casus belli. In May 1967, Egyptian president Gamal Abdel Nasser announced that the Straits of Tiran would again be closed to Israeli vessels. He subsequently mobilized the Egyptian military into defensive lines along the border with Israel[36] and ordered the immediate withdrawal of all UNEF personnel.[37][29]

    On 5 June 1967, as the UNEF was in the process of leaving the zone, Israel launched a series of preemptive airstrikes against Egyptian airfields and other facilities.[29] Egyptian forces were caught by surprise, and nearly all of Egypt's military aerial assets were destroyed, giving Israel air supremacy.
    reuters.com
    en.wikipedia.org


  67. by meagain on October 24, 2024 11:45 am
    Israel gave nothing, Curt. That segment of land was Palestinian territory and the Israelis were just settlers there and should have been subject to Palestinian authority, not Israelian.


  68. by Indy! on October 24, 2024 11:51 am

    This is a good thing in Curt's version of reality...

    Oct 10 (Reuters) - Gaza is a coastal strip of land that lay on ancient trading and maritime routes along the Mediterranean shore. Held by the Ottoman Empire until 1917, it passed from British to Egyptian to Israeli military rule over the last century and is now a fenced-in enclave, inhabited by over 2 million Palestinians.

    So they took it over (as I said) and turned it into a prison. IOW, Israel - as Indy has said all along - is an apartheid state. No different than South Africa in the 1980s.


  69. by Curt_Anderson on October 24, 2024 12:09 pm
    Meagain,
    Palestinians have never controlled any land or territory including Gaza.

    From prehistory, Gaza has been controlled by various empires including the Hasmonean, Roman, Ottoman and British. More recently it has been controlled by Egypt and Israel.

    The Palestinians have about the same claim to any particular territory as do the Romani people (aka Gypsies) to wherever they set up camp throughout the world, meaning no legitimate claim at all.
    en.wikipedia.org


  70. by Curt_Anderson on October 24, 2024 12:17 pm
    Indy, the fences on the Gazan border separate it from the Israel. There is the Egyptian border where the Rafah crossing is. There is also the sea.

    As I said, given the hostility, I can understand Israeli's reluctance to give Gazans free access to Israel. But why isn't Egypt and rest of world, especially Muslim majority nations allowing Gazans to relocate in their countries?

    Israel is not an apartheid state. Israel wants a two state solution. Hamas wants a one state "from the river to the sea" solution with all Jews gone.


  71. by Indy! on October 24, 2024 12:22 pm

    From prehistory, Gaza has been controlled by various empires including the Hasmonean, Roman, Ottoman and British. More recently it has been controlled by Egypt and Israel.

    So they had other countries oppressing them - that means it's still okay? 😂 It's no wonder you support the oppressers - you're obviously a fan of oppression.

    And not to point out the obvious, but Israel was not even a country until 1949(?)


  72. by Curt_Anderson on October 24, 2024 12:45 pm
    So what if Israel wasn't a country before in 1948? None of these places were sovereign nations before 1950: the former soviet union nations, Cambodia, Laos, Kosovo, Montenegro, Bosnia and Herzegovina, North Macedonia, Moldova, Belarus, Estonia, Slovenia, Belarus, Latvia, Saint Kitts and Nevis, Canada, Antigua and Barbuda, Belize, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, Saint Lucia, Dominica, Suriname, Grenada, Barbados, Guyana, Bahamas, Trinidad and Tobago, Jamaica and Suriname.


  73. by oldedude on October 24, 2024 12:47 pm
    Also the Czech Republic and Slovakia. And I agree, once a line has been drawn, it could be one day, it could be 100 years. It doesn't matter.


  74. by Indy! on October 24, 2024 2:33 pm

    True. And it doesn't change a thing about Israel still being an apartheid state.


  75. by oldedude on October 24, 2024 10:26 pm
    Yes it doesn't change a thing. I disagree with the apartheid state.


  76. by oldedude on October 24, 2024 10:37 pm
    How sad is it to spend your entire life hoping for that big world war that never comes? Does it suck hard knowing you're a scared rabbit trying to scare everyone else and no one cares because we're not paranoid nutjobs?

    That's an answer that doesn't understand the question. a novice trying to be a "master."

    The point is that I ask for nothing. If this is my last, then so it is. That's the difference between us. YOU think you will die, and are very afraid.

    I don't care if I die and accept it as another life. You choose. I'll never see you again in the depths of hell because of how you treat people. you choose.


  77. by Ponderer on October 25, 2024 8:01 am

    "I disagree with the apartheid state." -olde dude

    And in what objective way can you assert that Israel's treatment and history with the Palestinians does not fit neatly within the definition of an Apartheid State?

    Seriously, od. We wanna hear this from you.


    apartheid [ uh-pahr-tahyt, -teyt ]
    noun
    1. (in the Republic of South Africa) a rigid former policy of segregating and economically and politically oppressing the nonwhite population.
    2. any system or practice that separates people according to color, ethnicity, caste, etc.


    Israel is by definition an Apartheid State and has been for our entire lifetimes. Your refusal to acknowledge this fact in no way changes the reality of what Israel is, od. Just so you know.

    But please, let us hear your case.....


  78. by Curt_Anderson on October 25, 2024 8:22 am
    Ponderer,
    It has been said here in this long thread that Gaza, governed by Hamas, is a territory or land that belongs to the Palestinians and that Israel and the IDF is an occupier.

    If you accept that point of view then Israel and Gaza are very hostile and warring neighbors. In that case, Israel is no more of an apartheid state than the US is as we don’t allow our neighbors outside our borders to travel freely into our country and enjoy the same rights ad US citizens.


  79. by Ponderer on October 25, 2024 8:37 am

    Curt, I absolutely invite you also to post objective evidence that Israel's organized, governmentally overseen system or practice of separating people according to color, ethnicity, caste, etc. can not be considered "apartheid" in nature.

    Palestinians in Israel can't vote, they can't own property, they can't use certain streets. They can't travel freely. They can be thrown out of homes they have occupied for generations. They are essentially treated as less than human. They are wantonly denied basic human rights. They have pretty much no rights as residents of Israel or the Occupied Territories thereof.

    On what basis can you say that Israel and its systematic treatment of Palestinians does not separate people according to color, ethnicity, caste, etc. and cannot be considered apartheid?


  80. by Curt_Anderson on October 25, 2024 8:53 am
    Ponderer,
    Palestinian citizens of Israel have had the right to vote in Israeli elections since 1949. See link. There are and have been Palestinian politicians and members of their Supreme Court.


    ecfr.eu


  81. by Indy! on October 25, 2024 9:38 am

    The point is that I ask for nothing. If this is my last, then so it is. That's the difference between us. YOU think you will die, and are very afraid.

    BWAHHH-hahaha HAhahaHAHA hahaha woo-hoo haha-HAHA oh lordy... lordy GOOD LORD haha HAHAHA bwaa-ha-ha haha HAhahaHAHA hahaha woo-hoo HA HAHA hahahaaaah! Jesus, help me haha HAHAHAHAHA teehee woo-hoo laaaawdy... HAHA ha-haa bwaaah-ha-ha gracious haha HAHAHA bwaa-ha-ha haha HAhahaHAHA! hahaha woo-hoo HA HAHA hahahaaaah! hahaha HAhahaHAHA hahaha woo-hoo haha-HAHA help me Jesus! Gracious my ha-ha-ha BWAAAH-haha HAAAAAA hah-ha oh-ho help me, help me haha HAHAHA bwaa-ha-ha haha HAhahaHAHA hahaha woo-hoo HA HAHA hahahaaaah! No please not again... WAHHH-hahaha HAhahaHAHA hahaha woo-hoo haha-HAHA! Bwaaaha HAHAHA bwaa-ha-ha haha HAhahaHAHA hahaha woo-hoo HA HAHA hahahaaaah! GOOD LORD Jesus, help me haha HAHAHAHAHA woo-hoo laaaawdy... Oh that's rich... tell me another one... BWAHHH-hahaha HAhahaHAHA hahaha woo-hoo haha-HAHA oh lordy... lordy GOOD LORD haha HAHAHA bwaa-ha-ha haha HAhahaHAHA hahaha woo-hoo HA HAHA hahahaaaah! Jesus, help me haha HAHAHAHAHA teehee woo-hoo laaaawdy... HAHA ha-haa bwaaah-ha-ha gracious haha HAHAHA bwaa-ha-ha haha HAhahaHAHA! hahaha woo-hoo HA HAHA hahahaaaah! hahaha HAhahaHAHA hahaha woo-hoo haha-HAHA help me Jesus! Gracious my ha-ha-ha BWAAAH-haha HAAAAAA hah-ha oh-ho help me, help me haha HAHAHA bwaa-ha-ha haha HAhahaHAHA hahaha woo-hoo HA HAHA hahahaaaah! No please not again... WAHHH-hahaha HAhahaHAHA hahaha woo-hoo haha-HAHA! Bwaaaha HAHAHA bwaa-ha-ha haha HAhahaHAHA hahaha woo-hoo HA HAHA hahahaaaah! GOOD LORD Jesus, help me haha HAHAHAHAHA woo-hoo laaaawdy... Oh that's rich... tell me another one... BWAHHH-hahaha HAhahaHAHA hahaha woo-hoo haha-HAHA oh lordy... lordy GOOD LORD haha HAHAHA bwaa-ha-ha haha HAhahaHAHA hahaha woo-hoo HA HAHA hahahaaaah! Jesus, help me haha HAHAHAHAHA teehee woo-hoo laaaawdy... HAHA ha-haa bwaaah-ha-ha gracious haha HAHAHA bwaa-ha-ha haha HAhahaHAHA! hahaha woo-hoo HA HAHA hahahaaaah! hahaha HAhahaHAHA hahaha woo-hoo haha-HAHA help me Jesus! Gracious my ha-ha-ha BWAAAH-haha HAAAAAA hah-ha oh-ho help me, help me haha HAHAHA bwaa-ha-ha haha HAhahaHAHA hahaha woo-hoo HA HAHA hahahaaaah! No please not again... WAHHH-hahaha HAhahaHAHA hahaha woo-hoo haha-HAHA! Bwaaaha HAHAHA bwaa-ha-ha haha HAhahaHAHA hahaha woo-hoo HA HAHA hahahaaaah! GOOD LORD Jesus, help me haha HAHAHAHAHA woo-hoo laaaawdy... Oh that's rich... tell me another one... BWAHHH-hahaha HAhahaHAHA hahaha woo-hoo haha-HAHA oh lordy... lordy GOOD LORD haha HAHAHA bwaa-ha-ha haha HAhahaHAHA hahaha woo-hoo HA HAHA hahahaaaah! Jesus, help me haha HAHAHAHAHA teehee woo-hoo laaaawdy... HAHA ha-haa bwaaah-ha-ha gracious haha HAHAHA bwaa-ha-ha haha HAhahaHAHA! hahaha woo-hoo HA HAHA hahahaaaah! hahaha HAhahaHAHA hahaha woo-hoo haha-HAHA help me Jesus! Gracious my ha-ha-ha BWAAAH-haha HAAAAAA hah-ha oh-ho help me, help me haha HAHAHA bwaa-ha-ha haha HAhahaHAHA hahaha woo-hoo HA HAHA hahahaaaah! No please not again... WAHHH-hahaha HAhahaHAHA hahaha woo-hoo haha-HAHA! Bwaaaha HAHAHA bwaa-ha-ha haha HAhahaHAHA hahaha woo-hoo HA HAHA hahahaaaah! GOOD LORD Jesus, help me haha HAHAHAHAHA woo-hoo laaaawdy... Oh that's rich... tell me another one...


    Oh queenie... how can you possibly get everything so WRONG?


    BWAHHH-hahaha HAhahaHAHA hahaha woo-hoo haha-HAHA oh lordy... lordy GOOD LORD haha HAHAHA bwaa-ha-ha haha HAhahaHAHA hahaha woo-hoo HA HAHA hahahaaaah! Jesus, help me haha HAHAHAHAHA teehee woo-hoo laaaawdy... HAHA ha-haa bwaaah-ha-ha gracious haha HAHAHA bwaa-ha-ha haha HAhahaHAHA! hahaha woo-hoo HA HAHA hahahaaaah! hahaha HAhahaHAHA hahaha woo-hoo haha-HAHA help me Jesus! Gracious my ha-ha-ha BWAAAH-haha HAAAAAA hah-ha oh-ho help me, help me haha HAHAHA bwaa-ha-ha haha HAhahaHAHA hahaha woo-hoo HA HAHA hahahaaaah! No please not again... WAHHH-hahaha HAhahaHAHA hahaha woo-hoo haha-HAHA! Bwaaaha HAHAHA bwaa-ha-ha haha HAhahaHAHA hahaha woo-hoo HA HAHA hahahaaaah! GOOD LORD Jesus, help me haha HAHAHAHAHA woo-hoo laaaawdy... Oh that's rich... tell me another one... BWAHHH-hahaha HAhahaHAHA hahaha woo-hoo haha-HAHA oh lordy... lordy GOOD LORD haha HAHAHA bwaa-ha-ha haha HAhahaHAHA hahaha woo-hoo HA HAHA hahahaaaah! Jesus, help me haha HAHAHAHAHA teehee woo-hoo laaaawdy... HAHA ha-haa bwaaah-ha-ha gracious haha HAHAHA bwaa-ha-ha haha HAhahaHAHA! hahaha woo-hoo HA HAHA hahahaaaah! hahaha HAhahaHAHA hahaha woo-hoo haha-HAHA help me Jesus! Gracious my ha-ha-ha BWAAAH-haha HAAAAAA hah-ha oh-ho help me, help me haha HAHAHA bwaa-ha-ha haha HAhahaHAHA hahaha woo-hoo HA HAHA hahahaaaah! No please not again... WAHHH-hahaha HAhahaHAHA hahaha woo-hoo haha-HAHA! Bwaaaha HAHAHA bwaa-ha-ha haha HAhahaHAHA hahaha woo-hoo HA HAHA hahahaaaah! GOOD LORD Jesus, help me haha HAHAHAHAHA woo-hoo laaaawdy... Oh that's rich... tell me another one... BWAHHH-hahaha HAhahaHAHA hahaha woo-hoo haha-HAHA oh lordy... lordy GOOD LORD haha HAHAHA bwaa-ha-ha haha HAhahaHAHA hahaha woo-hoo HA HAHA hahahaaaah! Jesus, help me haha HAHAHAHAHA teehee woo-hoo laaaawdy... HAHA ha-haa bwaaah-ha-ha gracious haha HAHAHA bwaa-ha-ha haha HAhahaHAHA! hahaha woo-hoo HA HAHA hahahaaaah! hahaha HAhahaHAHA hahaha woo-hoo haha-HAHA help me Jesus! Gracious my ha-ha-ha BWAAAH-haha HAAAAAA hah-ha oh-ho help me, help me haha HAHAHA bwaa-ha-ha haha HAhahaHAHA hahaha woo-hoo HA HAHA hahahaaaah! No please not again... WAHHH-hahaha HAhahaHAHA hahaha woo-hoo haha-HAHA! Bwaaaha HAHAHA bwaa-ha-ha haha HAhahaHAHA hahaha woo-hoo HA HAHA hahahaaaah! GOOD LORD Jesus, help me haha HAHAHAHAHA woo-hoo laaaawdy... Oh that's rich... tell me another one...




  82. by Indy! on October 25, 2024 9:44 am

    The guy who can't go 5 minutes without a gun either down his pants or within easy reach...

    BWAHHH-hahaha HAhahaHAHA hahaha woo-hoo haha-HAHA oh lordy... lordy GOOD LORD haha HAHAHA bwaa-ha-ha haha HAhahaHAHA hahaha woo-hoo HA HAHA hahahaaaah! Jesus, help me haha HAHAHAHAHA teehee woo-hoo laaaawdy... HAHA ha-haa bwaaah-ha-ha gracious haha HAHAHA bwaa-ha-ha haha HAhahaHAHA! hahaha woo-hoo HA HAHA hahahaaaah! hahaha HAhahaHAHA hahaha woo-hoo haha-HAHA help me Jesus! Gracious my ha-ha-ha BWAAAH-haha HAAAAAA hah-ha oh-ho help me, help me haha HAHAHA bwaa-ha-ha haha HAhahaHAHA hahaha woo-hoo HA HAHA hahahaaaah! No please not again... WAHHH-hahaha HAhahaHAHA hahaha woo-hoo haha-HAHA! Bwaaaha HAHAHA bwaa-ha-ha haha HAhahaHAHA hahaha woo-hoo HA HAHA hahahaaaah! GOOD LORD Jesus, help me haha HAHAHAHAHA woo-hoo laaaawdy... Oh that's rich... tell me another one...

    The guy who has to sit in a restaurant facing the door because he's worried about active shooters...

    BWAHHH-hahaha HAhahaHAHA hahaha woo-hoo haha-HAHA oh lordy... lordy GOOD LORD haha HAHAHA bwaa-ha-ha haha HAhahaHAHA hahaha woo-hoo HA HAHA hahahaaaah! Jesus, help me haha HAHAHAHAHA teehee woo-hoo laaaawdy... HAHA ha-haa bwaaah-ha-ha gracious haha HAHAHA bwaa-ha-ha haha HAhahaHAHA! hahaha woo-hoo HA HAHA hahahaaaah! hahaha HAhahaHAHA hahaha woo-hoo haha-HAHA help me Jesus! Gracious my ha-ha-ha BWAAAH-haha HAAAAAA hah-ha oh-ho help me, help me haha HAHAHA bwaa-ha-ha haha HAhahaHAHA hahaha woo-hoo HA HAHA hahahaaaah! No please not again... WAHHH-hahaha HAhahaHAHA hahaha woo-hoo haha-HAHA! Bwaaaha HAHAHA bwaa-ha-ha haha HAhahaHAHA hahaha woo-hoo HA HAHA hahahaaaah! GOOD LORD Jesus, help me haha HAHAHAHAHA woo-hoo laaaawdy... Oh that's rich... tell me another one...

    The guy who has admitted random women in his neighborhood can shoot better than him....

    BWAHHH-hahaha HAhahaHAHA hahaha woo-hoo haha-HAHA oh lordy... lordy GOOD LORD haha HAHAHA bwaa-ha-ha haha HAhahaHAHA hahaha woo-hoo HA HAHA hahahaaaah! Jesus, help me haha HAHAHAHAHA teehee woo-hoo laaaawdy... HAHA ha-haa bwaaah-ha-ha gracious haha HAHAHA bwaa-ha-ha haha HAhahaHAHA! hahaha woo-hoo HA HAHA hahahaaaah! hahaha HAhahaHAHA hahaha woo-hoo haha-HAHA help me Jesus! Gracious my ha-ha-ha BWAAAH-haha HAAAAAA hah-ha oh-ho help me, help me haha HAHAHA bwaa-ha-ha haha HAhahaHAHA hahaha woo-hoo HA HAHA hahahaaaah! No please not again... WAHHH-hahaha HAhahaHAHA hahaha woo-hoo haha-HAHA! Bwaaaha HAHAHA bwaa-ha-ha haha HAhahaHAHA hahaha woo-hoo HA HAHA hahahaaaah! GOOD LORD Jesus, help me haha HAHAHAHAHA woo-hoo laaaawdy... Oh that's rich... tell me another one...

    The guy who's obsessed with border "security"...

    BWAHHH-hahaha HAhahaHAHA hahaha woo-hoo haha-HAHA oh lordy... lordy GOOD LORD haha HAHAHA bwaa-ha-ha haha HAhahaHAHA hahaha woo-hoo HA HAHA hahahaaaah! Jesus, help me haha HAHAHAHAHA teehee woo-hoo laaaawdy... HAHA ha-haa bwaaah-ha-ha gracious haha HAHAHA bwaa-ha-ha haha HAhahaHAHA! hahaha woo-hoo HA HAHA hahahaaaah! hahaha HAhahaHAHA hahaha woo-hoo haha-HAHA help me Jesus! Gracious my ha-ha-ha BWAAAH-haha HAAAAAA hah-ha oh-ho help me, help me haha HAHAHA bwaa-ha-ha haha HAhahaHAHA hahaha woo-hoo HA HAHA hahahaaaah! No please not again... WAHHH-hahaha HAhahaHAHA hahaha woo-hoo haha-HAHA! Bwaaaha HAHAHA bwaa-ha-ha haha HAhahaHAHA hahaha woo-hoo HA HAHA hahahaaaah! GOOD LORD Jesus, help me haha HAHAHAHAHA woo-hoo laaaawdy... Oh that's rich... tell me another one...

    The guy who whines incessantly about drug lords taking over America cities...

    BWAHHH-hahaha HAhahaHAHA hahaha woo-hoo haha-HAHA oh lordy... lordy GOOD LORD haha HAHAHA bwaa-ha-ha haha HAhahaHAHA hahaha woo-hoo HA HAHA hahahaaaah! Jesus, help me haha HAHAHAHAHA teehee woo-hoo laaaawdy... HAHA ha-haa bwaaah-ha-ha gracious haha HAHAHA bwaa-ha-ha haha HAhahaHAHA! hahaha woo-hoo HA HAHA hahahaaaah! hahaha HAhahaHAHA hahaha woo-hoo haha-HAHA help me Jesus! Gracious my ha-ha-ha BWAAAH-haha HAAAAAA hah-ha oh-ho help me, help me haha HAHAHA bwaa-ha-ha haha HAhahaHAHA hahaha woo-hoo HA HAHA hahahaaaah! No please not again... WAHHH-hahaha HAhahaHAHA hahaha woo-hoo haha-HAHA! Bwaaaha HAHAHA bwaa-ha-ha haha HAhahaHAHA hahaha woo-hoo HA HAHA hahahaaaah! GOOD LORD Jesus, help me haha HAHAHAHAHA woo-hoo laaaawdy... Oh that's rich... tell me another one...

    The guy who cries about gangbangers taking over America...

    BWAHHH-hahaha HAhahaHAHA hahaha woo-hoo haha-HAHA oh lordy... lordy GOOD LORD haha HAHAHA bwaa-ha-ha haha HAhahaHAHA hahaha woo-hoo HA HAHA hahahaaaah! Jesus, help me haha HAHAHAHAHA teehee woo-hoo laaaawdy... HAHA ha-haa bwaaah-ha-ha gracious haha HAHAHA bwaa-ha-ha haha HAhahaHAHA! hahaha woo-hoo HA HAHA hahahaaaah! hahaha HAhahaHAHA hahaha woo-hoo haha-HAHA help me Jesus! Gracious my ha-ha-ha BWAAAH-haha HAAAAAA hah-ha oh-ho help me, help me haha HAHAHA bwaa-ha-ha haha HAhahaHAHA hahaha woo-hoo HA HAHA hahahaaaah! No please not again... WAHHH-hahaha HAhahaHAHA hahaha woo-hoo haha-HAHA! Bwaaaha HAHAHA bwaa-ha-ha haha HAhahaHAHA hahaha woo-hoo HA HAHA hahahaaaah! GOOD LORD Jesus, help me haha HAHAHAHAHA woo-hoo laaaawdy... Oh that's rich... tell me another one...

    THAT guy thinks OTHER people are the scared ones...

    BWAHHH-hahaha HAhahaHAHA hahaha woo-hoo haha-HAHA oh lordy... lordy GOOD LORD haha HAHAHA bwaa-ha-ha haha HAhahaHAHA hahaha woo-hoo HA HAHA hahahaaaah! Jesus, help me haha HAHAHAHAHA teehee woo-hoo laaaawdy... HAHA ha-haa bwaaah-ha-ha gracious haha HAHAHA bwaa-ha-ha haha HAhahaHAHA! hahaha woo-hoo HA HAHA hahahaaaah! hahaha HAhahaHAHA hahaha woo-hoo haha-HAHA help me Jesus! Gracious my ha-ha-ha BWAAAH-haha HAAAAAA hah-ha oh-ho help me, help me haha HAHAHA bwaa-ha-ha haha HAhahaHAHA hahaha woo-hoo HA HAHA hahahaaaah! No please not again... WAHHH-hahaha HAhahaHAHA hahaha woo-hoo haha-HAHA! Bwaaaha HAHAHA bwaa-ha-ha haha HAhahaHAHA hahaha woo-hoo HA HAHA hahahaaaah! GOOD LORD Jesus, help me haha HAHAHAHAHA woo-hoo laaaawdy... Oh that's rich... tell me another one...

    Oh Odorous... you are SO out of touch with not only reality - but yourself.

    BWAHHH-hahaha HAhahaHAHA hahaha woo-hoo haha-HAHA oh lordy... lordy GOOD LORD haha HAHAHA bwaa-ha-ha haha HAhahaHAHA hahaha woo-hoo HA HAHA hahahaaaah! Jesus, help me haha HAHAHAHAHA teehee woo-hoo laaaawdy... HAHA ha-haa bwaaah-ha-ha gracious haha HAHAHA bwaa-ha-ha haha HAhahaHAHA! hahaha woo-hoo HA HAHA hahahaaaah! hahaha HAhahaHAHA hahaha woo-hoo haha-HAHA help me Jesus! Gracious my ha-ha-ha BWAAAH-haha HAAAAAA hah-ha oh-ho help me, help me haha HAHAHA bwaa-ha-ha haha HAhahaHAHA hahaha woo-hoo HA HAHA hahahaaaah! No please not again... WAHHH-hahaha HAhahaHAHA hahaha woo-hoo haha-HAHA! Bwaaaha HAHAHA bwaa-ha-ha haha HAhahaHAHA hahaha woo-hoo HA HAHA hahahaaaah! GOOD LORD Jesus, help me haha HAHAHAHAHA woo-hoo laaaawdy... Oh that's rich... tell me another one...


  83. by Ponderer on October 25, 2024 11:24 am

    "Palestinian citizens of Israel have had the right to vote in Israeli elections since 1949. See link." -Curt

    Thanks! I had not been aware of that. Not that it seems to have done them a lick of good.

    So Curt, do you think Palestinian citizens of Israel being able to vote in Israel negates all of the other attributes of apartheid that Israel engages in against the Palestinians? Or are there other reasons that you think that Israel doesn't qualify as an apartheid state?


  84. by Curt_Anderson on October 25, 2024 11:47 am
    Ponderer,
    One of my doctor friends who is Jewish has a doctor friend in Israel who is a Muslim and Palestinian. They were medical school classmates. My friend visited him in Israel a few years ago.

    I won't pretend that Palestinians don't face unequal treatment and prejudice in Israel. Given the religious based mutual antagonism, it's amazing there is any cooperation at all.

    America hasn't always been an exemplar on the equal treatment score. If Israel is an apartheid state, then the US and many other countries are too. You know about Jim Crow laws that made a mockery of the 15th Amendment. Did you know Native Americans didn't have the right to vote until 1924?

    The Indian Citizenship Act of 1924, also called the Snyder Act, was passed by Congress in 1924 and admitted Native Americans born in the U.S. to full U.S. citizenship. Even with the passing of that citizenship bill, Native Americans were often prevented from participating in elections, because the Constitution left it up to the states to decide who has the right to vote. Native Americans suffered from some of the same mechanisms and strategies that kept African Americans from exercising the right to vote.

    In apartheid South Africa, any black who needed medical treatment and was fortunate enough to find a white doctor willing to treat him had to enter the clinic or hospital through the back door and get inferior treatment. There is no such discrimination in Israeli medical facilities.

    In Israel there are non-Jewish judges, teachers, professors, even members of Knesset, as well as others holding high positions in all professions and occupations. In apartheid South Africa, non-whites were systematically banned from all such opportunities.
    loc.gov


  85. by meagain on October 25, 2024 12:04 pm
    You mistake what sovereignty is, Curt. Several of the countries were sovereign states, some before America was dreamed of. They were conquered and folded into the conqueror but have recovered their sovereignty. Canada has been continuously sovereign since 1867.

    For od, too, Israel is an apartheid state and the International Court of Justices has ruled that it is in an action brought by Spain for the purpose. Apartheid has nothing to do with the treatment of neighbours and is only concerned with inequality within the state.


  86. by Curt_Anderson on October 25, 2024 12:18 pm
    Meagain,
    Canada became a fully sovereign country on April 17, 1982, when the Canada Act (also known as the Constitution Act of 1982) was proclaimed into law. This act removed Canada's remaining ties to the British Parliament, giving Canada the power to amend its own constitution.


  87. by oldedude on October 25, 2024 12:27 pm
    Curt- in your comment to po, thanks. I've said that several times and it never sticks. In addition, ALL women in Israel (regardless of religion) can vote, have a job, drive a car (a big deal in the Middle East), shop by themselves, and have all the other rights of everyone else in the country.


  88. by Ponderer on October 25, 2024 12:42 pm


    "America hasn't always been an exemplar on the equal treatment score. If Israel is an apartheid state, then the US and many other countries are too." -Curt

    Were, perhaps. We certainly qualified as an apartheid state until the civil rights era.

    But you would be hard pressed to find any institutional systems or practices in the U.S. now that separates people according to color, ethnicity, caste, etc. nowadays.

    I can't think of any.


  89. by Curt_Anderson on October 25, 2024 1:09 pm
    Ok, Ponderer, as you suggest American qualified, by your definitions, as an apartheid state for about our first 200 years. Israel is about 75 years old. Countries don't start out perfect on day one. That's where that "more perfect union" thing comes in.

    Some allege that Israel is an apartheid state. Some allege that the United States, Cuba, China, India, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, etc. are apartheid states. 2nd link.

    Before you applaud our institutional systems, wait and see what obstacles some states put up to suppress voting rights next week.

    Israel is a "flawed democracy" just one notch below the United States in The Economist democracy ranking. See 1st link. Israel is way above any middle eastern theocracy, monarchy or dictatorship including the area known as Palestine which encompasses the Gaza Strip.
    en.wikipedia.org
    en.wikipedia.org


  90. by Ponderer on October 25, 2024 1:27 pm

    "Ok, Ponderer, as you suggest American qualified, by your definitions, as an apartheid state for about our first 200 years. Israel is about 75 years old. Countries don't start out perfect on day one. That's where that "more perfect union" thing comes in." -Curt

    So... Israel is still within the grace period for new countries where ethnic cleansing and apartheid get a pass...?

    Come on, Curt.


    "Before you applaud our institutional systems, wait and see what obstacles some states put up to suppress voting rights next week." -Curt

    Oh certainly there can and have been apartheid states in the U.S. in the past. And arguably may still be today. But we were talking about countries.

    But at any rate, I don't see how anything that Republican state officials do to thwart minorities and Democrats from voting in any way excuses the regime of Israel for any of its institutional, apartheid-comparable treatment of Palestinians.

    You can play around with the meanings of words all you want, but nothing that any other country has ever done excuses or gives cover to Israel for its treatment of Palestinians over the last half-century plus.


  91. by meagain on October 25, 2024 2:12 pm
    The Constitution remained in Britain because Canada had not written a new Constitution. The BNA Act was our Constitution of Canada as an Independent country. Britain could not touch it. So Canada was sovereign in every respect. The only issue had been that since we had not made it a Canadian document, we had to instruct the British Parliament to make any Amendments. It became an inconvenience when Pierre Trudeau decided to develop a written one - a huge mistake at the time.


  92. by meagain on October 25, 2024 2:26 pm
    The Gazanas have always been in Gaza, Curt. They are Palestinians who were in Gaza, the West Bank, and the now Israel from time immemorial. There are just a lot more of them now since 700,000 were driven out of the Israel part and their homes and properties taken over.

    The Israelis also were once in the whole area and Israelis and Palestinians lived side by side for thousands of years until religion got in the way. They are, in fact, the same original people. The wars are fratricidal in a similar way to the American civil war.


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