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I repeat. Based on what the words mean, Name me five Christian Nationalists
By HatetheSwamp
August 14, 2024 7:36 am
Category: Religion

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Following isle's example, po and Donna have been tossing around the words Christian Nationalist like they're a Frisbee.

po posted a video of a sermon in which the preacher denounced Christian Nationalism by advocating for White Mainline Protestant Nationalism: A nation with CHRISTIAN abortion laws... a nation with CHRISTIAN LGBTQ laws... a nation with CHRISTIAN border laws...

So I challenged them: Based on what the words mean, name me five Christian Nationalists.

I'm still waiting.

Based on what the words mean, name five Christian Nationalists. H€ck. Name one.

Woke white electric limousine lovin progressive Swampcultists talk about Christian Nationalists like Adolf talked about Jews.

So? Hmmmm?

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Comments on "I repeat. Based on what the words mean, Name me five Christian Nationalists ":

  1. by Indy! on August 14, 2024 11:15 am

    I gave you six the first time you asked. We all know you're obtuse, but even you can't be THAT obtuse.

  2. by HatetheSwamp on August 14, 2024 11:18 am

    Where?

  3. by Indy! on August 14, 2024 11:47 am

    In the thread where you asked the first time. I gave you a photo of the leaders of the Christian Nationalist movement. You can toss Trump in there too - that's 7.

  4. by HatetheSwamp on August 14, 2024 12:01 pm

    Link.

    There were lots of threads popping yesterday.

  5. by Indy! on August 14, 2024 1:10 pm

    Nope. I don't chase my tail for wingnuts like Ds do. You saw it. You know it's accurate. That's why you're pretending you didn't see it.

  6. by HatetheSwamp on August 14, 2024 1:13 pm

    I'm waiting. Patiently.

  7. by Indy! on August 14, 2024 1:31 pm

    If I gave it to you AGAIN, you would just deny you ever saw it AGAIN. See how your little game does NOT work? Keep waiting. I just named Trump - we're up to 7 now and I haven't even turned on my brain yet.

  8. by oldedude on August 14, 2024 6:40 pm
    Yeah, "Mom's for Liberty" is a nationwide coalition of parents and grandparents who believe the government should not interfere in a parents' right to know and understand what their children are learning.

    Another organization is also Parents Defending Education is ready to do all that is necessary to DEFEAT the Title IX rewrite and score a major VICTORY for K-12 students and families.

    I'm shocked that with all your knowledge in everything, you don't know anything about these folks. Nicole Neily (Parents Defending Education) is on the main hit list of about every sheeple and liberal low information voter group in the US.

    Lead- What's funny is that I'm on his list that he's making you crawl to him for. I'd just let it go. It's not worth the time for him.

    I find it also funny that I say over and over again that I'm willing to compromise one many, but not all of the issues. The left refuses to compromise at all. (well, their compromise is "do it my way or nothing"). And I keep saying that the lack of compromise is where the dims can't learn from.

    They wonder why these "absolutist groups" came from, and they're the making because of themselves. The lack of compromise are especially with 2A groups, and the parents knowing what their children are being taught in school. The sheep in this case, lost their cases and forced the other side to dig their heels in to stop them. The conservative groups have great days in courts. Why? Because these limousine libs forget there are 1. laws, and 2. people that will fight for those laws and have a vested interest in what is happening. The other side also respects the left is NOT going to give up getting their own way. Ergo, neither is the right.

  9. by Ponderer on August 14, 2024 6:43 pm

    I gave him a list of like twenty right after he first asked. So I'm done here.


  10. by Indy! on August 14, 2024 8:06 pm

    I don't know everything about every LEGITIMATE organization, OD - much less these fly by night GoFundMe things you rightwingers start for everything from crybaby cross-state murderers to bakeries refusing to sell gay wedding cakes.

  11. by HatetheSwamp on August 15, 2024 3:54 am

    So, po. Is your preacher a Christian Nationalist who, simply, preaches your gospel?


    This fascinates me, seriously. Back on the old forum, in my early days, long before pttp and you showed up, on the Philosophy Forum, there was a debate about the difference between Islamic fundamentalism and Christian fundamentalism.

    Islamic fundamentalists are, truly, Islamic Nationalists. But, here, Christian fundamentalists ain't Christian Nationalists... any more than your preacher is. Ain't?

    Repeating a point I made previously, if that sort of preaching edifies you, you should check out a local UCC congregation. That gospel is everyday fare there.

  12. by Ponderer on August 15, 2024 7:08 am

    "So, po. Is your preacher a Christian Nationalist who, simply, preaches your gospel?" -Hate

    No. He isn't. What an illogically stupid conclusion to come to. By no stretch of a sane imagination could someone think, even from that one sermon, that James Talarico is in any way at all a Christian Nationalist. Which explains your thinking that.


    "Islamic fundamentalists are, truly, Islamic Nationalists. But, here, Christian fundamentalists ain't Christian Nationalists... any more than your preacher is. Ain't?" -Hate


    Here's a quickie definition of Christian Nationalism for you. Since you don't really seem to understand what that is either...

    Christian nationalism is a type of religious nationalism that seeks to create or maintain a legal fusion of Christian religion with a nation’s character. It is affiliated with Christianity and primarily focuses on the internal politics of society, such as legislating civil and criminal laws that reflect their view of Christianity and the role of religion/s in political and social life. Christian nationalism is a desire to have a God-centered nation run by godly people—namely, Christians, therefore “taking back” the nation for God. It identifies the nation with God's will and action in the world, conflates national and Christian identity, and identifies service of the nation with service of God.


    Bill, do you actually believe that Christian Nationalism is a natural part of Christian Fundamentalism? That Christian Fundamentalists are, by virtue of their beliefs in the Gospel of Jesus, also Christian Nationalists...? Because I certainly don't.

    Perhaps I am misunderstanding the meaning of what you were saying. As always, I could be wrong. If so, please elucidate...

  13. by HatetheSwamp on August 15, 2024 8:14 am

    po,

    Against my better judgment, I'm going to attempt to engage you in a rational dialog.

    *****

    Re: "No. He isn't. What an illogically stupid conclusion to come to. By no stretch of a sane imagination could someone think, even from that one sermon, that James Talarico is in any way at all a Christian Nationalist."

    You know that I don't believe in the blending of religion and state. I oppose Moral Majority people, for instance. They have views on abortion and LGBT rights and immigration, based on what they think the Bible teaches. For that, you think of them as Christian Nationalists.

    James Talarico has views on abortion and LGBT rights and immigration, based on what he thinks the Bible teaches... and, like the Moral Majority gang, he advocates for those Christian teachings to be the law of the land.

    What's the difference?

    Re: "Christian nationalism is a type of religious nationalism that seeks to create or maintain a legal fusion of Christian religion with a nation’s character. It is affiliated with Christianity and primarily focuses on the internal politics of society, such as legislating civil and criminal laws that reflect their view of Christianity and the role of religion/s in political and social life. Christian nationalism is a desire to have a God-centered nation run by godly people—namely, Christians, therefore “taking back” the nation for God. It identifies the nation with God's will and action in the world, conflates national and Christian identity, and identifies service of the nation with service of God."

    That's your guy to a tee... as far as I can tell. I watched the whole sermon.

    Explain why you think I'm wrong.

  14. by Ponderer on August 15, 2024 8:30 am

    Thanks, Bill. I actually do think that we can have a good discussion about thes.

    " I oppose Moral Majority people, for instance. They have views on abortion and LGBT rights and immigration, based on what they think the Bible teaches. For that, you think of them as Christian Nationalists." -Hate

    Wrong. I do not think that any Christians are Christian Nationalists because of those views that you cite some of them having. Those things have nothing at all to do with Christian Nationalism and you are wrong to conclude that I think they do. Please review the definition of Christian Nationalism that I posted in Post #12 of this thread and that you actually reposted.


    "James Talarico has views on abortion and LGBT rights and immigration, based on what he thinks the Bible teaches... and, like the Moral Majority gang, he advocates for those Christian teachings to be the law of the land." -Hate

    "That's your guy to a tee... as far as I can tell. I watched the whole sermon." -Hate

    Well, I would certainly love to see any evidence that you can provide a link to that supports that assertion. This video certainly doesn't.

    I am sure that he, like any pastor, has views on abortion and LGBTQ rights and immigration one way or the other. But nowhere in that whole video does he suggest that he believes or wants his views and teachings "to be the law of the land". It's a mystery to me how you could think he does.


    "Explain why you think I'm wrong." -Hate

    Because you are saying that he said things that he didn't say.

  15. by HatetheSwamp on August 15, 2024 8:38 am

    So, IYO the Moral Majority gang, ain't Christian Nationalists?

  16. by Ponderer on August 15, 2024 9:38 am

    I'm sure many of them very well may be. But I would not assert that they all are. The whole "Moral Majority" label doesn't have much relevance nowadays anyway. I mean, given that they are neither.

  17. by HatetheSwamp on August 15, 2024 9:43 am

    Okay, its replacement, The Christian Coalition?

  18. by Indy! on August 15, 2024 9:51 am

    It is affiliated with Christianity and primarily focuses on the internal politics of society, such as legislating civil and criminal laws that reflect their view of Christianity and the role of religion/s in political and social life.

    Hence the 6 people I named the first time pb asked. I threw in Trump to make it 7, but he's more of a willing dupe than a hard core* Christian Nationalist like the six I named.



    * Pronounced "core", OD.

  19. by HatetheSwamp on August 15, 2024 10:11 am

    You think that Trump's an EFFINChristian!!!!!?

  20. by Ponderer on August 15, 2024 10:20 am

    "Okay, its replacement, The Christian Coalition?" -Hate

    Same answer: I'm sure many of them very well may be. But I would not assert that they all are.

    Basically, it's my contention that any Christian who advocates for our laws to be made to correspond with their religious dogma is at the very least knocking on the door of Christian Nationalism.

    No religion or any of its scriptures, its teachings, or its dogma have any place at all in America's laws.

  21. by Ponderer on August 15, 2024 10:21 am

    "You think that Trump's an EFFINChristian!!!!!?" -Hate

    I would hazard a guess that the majority of his evangelical Christian followers believe him to be.

  22. by HatetheSwamp on August 15, 2024 10:24 am

    po,

    What else that evangelicals believe do you advocate? Bahahahahahahahahahaha, ahhhhhhhhhhh.

  23. by Ponderer on August 15, 2024 10:27 am

    I actually wanted to hav a discussion about this. But if you're just going to impishly obfuscate and change the subject...

  24. by HatetheSwamp on August 15, 2024 10:29 am

    "Basically, it's my contention that any Christian who advocates for our laws to be made to correspond with their religious dogma is at the very least knocking on the door of Christian Nationalism."

    Define dogma.

  25. by Ponderer on August 15, 2024 11:15 am

    I don't know why you keep making me do this. There are plenty of dictionary sites you can easily go to yourself when you don't know what words mean, and then you wouldn't look so ignorant.


    dogma [ dawg-muh, dog- ]
    noun

    1. an official system of principles or tenets concerning faith, morals, behavior, etc., as of a church.

    Synonyms: philosophy, doctrine

    2. a specific tenet or doctrine authoritatively laid down, as by a church:
    the dogma of the Assumption;
    the recently defined dogma of papal infallibility.

    Synonyms: law, canon, tenet

    3. prescribed doctrine proclaimed as unquestionably true by a particular group:
    the difficulty of resisting political dogma.

    4. a settled or established opinion, belief, or principle:
    the classic dogma of objectivity in scientific observation.

    Synonyms: certainty, conviction





    dictionary.com

  26. by HatetheSwamp on August 15, 2024 11:20 am

    Right. I can read four languages. Words are a fascinating phenomenon. Which of the four definitions of dogma are you using in our dialog? It makes a difference.

  27. by Indy! on August 15, 2024 11:23 am

    Probably the English language one, pb. 🙄


    So far as...

    by HatetheSwamp on August 15, 2024 10:11 am

    You think that Trump's an EFFINChristian!!!!!?


    What does that have to do with being a Christian Nationalist? I doubt many (or ANY) of them are Christians.

  28. by Ponderer on August 15, 2024 11:33 am

    They all generally apply, but the first one works fine, Bill. I'd say that the New Testament, which I believe is still something that Christians hold to, could well be considered containing "an official system of principles or tenets concerning faith, morals, behavior, etc., as of a church."


    I suppose you are now going to explain for us all how Christian dogma doesn't qualify as Christian dogma...








    (This oughta be good.....)

  29. by HatetheSwamp on August 15, 2024 11:52 am

    Official? See this is why words are fascinating.

    A person's belief has to come from a church to matter?

    I hate to pull an islander, but I don't think that a thought that a "church" makes "official" is what you are talking about...

    ...but the word dogma does have negative connotation. Eh?

  30. by Ponderer on August 15, 2024 12:34 pm

    "A person's belief has to come from a church to matter?" -Hate

    Darn it. I thought as a former seminary student that you'd be at least a little bit familiar with the New Testament.

    Because it has been my understanding that just about any Christian church takes the New Testament, and Old for that matter, as being and containing their official system of principles and tenets concerning their faith, their morals, and their behavior of their religion.


    So...! With that bit of obfuscation and subject-changing finally done and out of the way, could we to get back to the main topic of this discussion? We could re-start by you explaining how James Talarico could, by your formulations, ever be considered a Christian Nationalist...

  31. by HatetheSwamp on August 15, 2024 12:49 pm

    "Because it has been my understanding that just about any Christian church takes the New Testament, and Old for that matter, as being and containing their official system of principles and tenets concerning their faith, their morals, and their behavior of their religion."


    I was intimately involved in institutional and organized Christianity for decades. From my experience, the Bible is the SOURCE of a church's "official system and principles and tenets." But, not the official system... itself.


    Can we try it this way?

    As you know, I've come to despise organized and institutionalized Christianity. But, my belief in Jesus is stronger than ever. Do I understand you correctly? My beliefs, because they are personal, not official, not connected to any church at all...

    ...can not possibly be dogma?

  32. by Ponderer on August 15, 2024 2:32 pm

    Two questions, Bill...

    1. Is it your contention that the religion of Christianity... is completely devoid of any dogma...?

    2. And that the Bible, Christianity's official, sacred religious text, Old and/or New Testament, in no way constitutes an official system of principles or tenets concerning faith, morals, or behavior...?

  33. by HatetheSwamp on August 15, 2024 2:47 pm

    "1. Is it your contention that the religion of Christianity... is completely devoid of any dogma...?"

    Based on what the word 'dogma' means, Christianity itself has no dogma. Churches/denominations/institutions do,... aplenty.

    Talking about your choice of the word dogma is getting us of track.

    "2. And that the Bible, Christianity's official, sacred religious text, Old and/or New Testament, in no way constitutes an official system of principles or tenets concerning faith, morals, or behavior...?"

    "Official system?" I don't even know what that means. I have noticed that... it seems to me... you are hung up on Christianity as an organization/institution.

    But, this is pb's problem with institutionalized Christianity. The Bible is mostly about how to live.

  34. by Ponderer on August 15, 2024 4:31 pm

    I knew those would be your answers. I even knew you'd focus in on the word official.

    Thanks, Bill. That was a good conversation.



    So there we have it, folks. Thoughts?

  35. by Ponderer on August 15, 2024 4:47 pm

    Just so that everyone is clear and if anyone had any doubts, believing that Jesus was crucified for everyone's sins and then rose from the dead, is not a prescribed doctrine proclaimed as unquestionably true by the Christian religion, and members thereof, in particular.

    Because that would be part of an official system of principles or tenets concerning faith and there aren't any of thosein the religion of Christianity.

    Nor is it a specific tenet or doctrine authoritatively laid down in the Christian religion. Nope. Bible ain't got none of them.

    Nor is the Resurrection of Jesus Christ a settled or established opinion, belief, or principle in the Christian religion. Because, Jesus Christ..... that would be dogma!

  36. by oldedude on August 15, 2024 7:01 pm
    Just so that everyone is clear and if anyone had any doubts, believing that Jesus was crucified for everyone's sins and then rose from the dead, is not a prescribed doctrine proclaimed as unquestionably true by the Christian religion, and members thereof, in particular.

    Because that would be part of an official system of principles or tenets concerning faith and there aren't any of thosein the religion of Christianity.

    Nor is it a specific tenet or doctrine authoritatively laid down in the Christian religion. Nope. Bible ain't got none of them.

    Nor is the Resurrection of Jesus Christ a settled or established opinion, belief, or principle in the Christian religion. Because, Jesus Christ..... that would be dogma!

    I'm not sure where you got your information.

    The latin word credo means “I believe.” A Christian creed is a summary of what a Christian believes. Known as the best and most ancient summary or Rule (Gk Κανών) of Faith, the Apostle’s Creed is one of the most important historic documents of the Christian Church. It developed as a baptismal profession (said at baptism as a testimony) sometime around the turn of the 1st or beginning of the 2nd centuries. The Church gradually tweaked it, until the Creed came to the final form we use today during the 4th century. When you study and profess to believe it, you are joining your faith with every Christian, who has ever lived, anywhere in the world.

    Summary of the Apostle’s Creed
    I believe in God the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.
    And in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord,
    Who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary,
    Suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried; He descended to the dead:
    on the third day he rose again from the dead;
    He ascended into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of God the Father almighty,
    And will come to judge the living and the dead.
    I believe in the Holy Spirit,
    The holy catholic* church, the communion of saints,
    The forgiveness of sins,
    The resurrection of the body,
    And the life everlasting. Amen.    [1]

    *cath·o·lic
    [ˈkaTH(ə)lik]
    adjective
    including a wide variety of things; all-embracing:[2]
    chadwgraham.com
    bing.com

  37. by Ponderer on August 15, 2024 10:19 pm

    Thanks, od. I didn't really need any help proving how wrong Hate is. But I appreciate it.

  38. by HatetheSwamp on August 16, 2024 3:49 am

    "a prescribed doctrine"

    Prescribed by whom? Who possibly could prescribe it?

    po,

    You've succeeded in turning a dialog about Christian Nationalism in the US into...

    ... whether or not there's an 'official' requirement that a follower of Jesus accept "dogmas" concerning the crucifixion and the resurrection.

    I invite you, po, to return to the issue I raised with you a "rational dialog" about what is and what is not Christian Nationalism.

    *****

    I will say that your questions about human authority within the Christian religion and what is and is not orthodoxy interests me as well as what is the relationship between belief and dogma. A lot.

    In fact, I'd love to pick your brain...

    But, it's off the issue at hand.

    Maybe later.

    Up to you.

  39. by HatetheSwamp on August 16, 2024 4:04 am

    Actually, the earliest summary of essential Christian belief is contained in the New Testament itself. It's an extremely important piece of history.

    Beliefs essential to the faith?

    Christ died for our sins
    He was buried
    He rose on the third day
    He was seen (by many witnesses), and,
    He will return.

    1 Corinthians 15... which is universally acknowledged to be a genuine letter of Paul. And, beyond that is believed to be a very early letter, therefore, historically, extremely significant...

    But, a person who's a Christian Nationalist wouldn't necessarily have to believe those things to attempt to foist Christianity on the nation.

  40. by oldedude on August 16, 2024 4:49 am
    Agreed. And in the theory of healthy debate, most of the thousands of manuscripts and books that set out to disprove or defame the bible provide factual second party evidence of the events of the bible. These are written by professional historians, anthropologists, etc. Some of them just "chance" on things that confirm things.

    The limousine loving liberal church seems to have modeled their "Christianity" around their political thoughts. No surprise there. Every religion has the things that separate them from the others. In Christianity it's very much that Christ was arrested, beaten and whipped, put on the cross, and died. On the third day he rose and spoke to people that had come to the tomb. THAT is a basic tenant to Christianity and is etched as a pillar. Interesting enough. The apostles that witnessed this, wrote about it separately and later. They all said basically the same thing, but from the Last Supper to the resurrection there are minor differences that each witnessed. These minor differences are shared differently. Had they gotten together to write it, there would be few differences and everyone would have "seen" the differences we see.

    So now liberalism is a religion! I agree with po. It is "a" religion. It is NOT Christianity. I mean, you can call yourselves whatever you want, but "Christian" is not accurate.




  41. by oldedude on August 16, 2024 4:51 am
    I tried to cite the book. It's set up for the web, soooo....

    The Case for Christ Bible: Investigating the Evidence for Jesus
    By: Lee Strobel
    christianbook.com

  42. by oldedude on August 16, 2024 5:05 am
    I think the wraparound is that po is demanding that "church" is brick and mortar organization. You and I don't believe that it has to be. My wife is considered "Christian" because she goes to "a 'Church'" I do not. I study and learn, but not in a brick and mortar "place." I do believe in the tenants, And in the "dogma" there is more into it. The pomp and ceremony I have a problem with. I know why they were created, and some of them are kind of cool, but they in NO WAY influence my belief.

  43. by HatetheSwamp on August 16, 2024 5:55 am

    "The limousine loving liberal church seems to have modeled their "Christianity" around their political thoughts."

    OD,

    It's a temptation for everyone.

    One thing that seems to be true about mainstream American Protestant denominations which have descended from European State Churches, i.e., they tend to put their stamp of approval on predominant cultural values. So, when, for instance, abortion was a crime, those churches condemned, when the culture disapproved of homosexuality, they preached against it. When cultural trends change, they step forward to provide a moral and philosophical defense for the latest cultural rages... Denominations like the Episcopal, Lutheran, UCC, Presbyterian.

    That's what James Talarico was doing in that beloved sermon.

    But conservative Christians impress their own views on the Bible, too.

  44. by HatetheSwamp on August 16, 2024 6:18 am

    OD,

    Re: I study and learn, but not in a brick and mortar "place." I do believe in the tenants.

    I study and meditate on Scripture and live among believing friends and associates.

    As you may have gleaned, Kierkegaard has helped me make sense of Christianity. He was no fan of institutionalized religion, nor of "dogma."

    Since I became a follower of Jesus, I have tried to understand what Christianity was in its most primitive form. And, to live it as best I can. Hence, the Apostles' Creed is less valuable to me than Paul's first century primitive recounting of what he called the gospel. For dogma, I don't need much more than that.

    But, as I've said, even in this thread, Christianity is much more what you do than what you think. BTW, Kierkegaard was all about Christianity as a way of life, not doctrine nor dogma.

    That's why, when po brought up dogma, I cringed. But, then, over the years it seems to me, po defines being a Christian by what denominations and institutions think... as many do.

  45. by Ponderer on August 16, 2024 6:49 am

    "But, then, over the years it seems to me, po defines being a Christian by what denominations and institutions think... as many do." -Hate

    It seems that way because your thinking about me has always been wrong.


    Your thinking about a great many things is wrong, Bill. And you demonize me for it. You create an image of me and any others who you disagree with that rarely if ever has any connection to reality. Just like your whole mendacious political party does. You twist and mangle things I say to make me into whatever heinous character you want to argue against. olde dude is even worse with that than you are, so there's some consolation for you. And so, you can both gofuck yourselves in regard to that.

    Hey! Maybe you can both gofuck yourselves together! I bet it would be way more efficient that way. Save some time. I think you should both give it a shot. It's worth a try anyway. You both need to gofuck yourselves so desperately.

  46. by Ponderer on August 16, 2024 6:52 am

    "a prescribed doctrine"

    ""a prescribed doctrine"

    Prescribed by whom? Who possibly could prescribe it?"     -Hate


    Emperor Constantine maybe...?


    prescribe [ pri-skrahyb ]
    verb (used with object)
    1. to lay down, in writing or otherwise, as a rule or a course of action to be followed; appoint, ordain, or enjoin.

    Synonyms: decree, dictate, direct

  47. by HatetheSwamp on August 16, 2024 7:11 am

    po,

    "Your thinking about a great many things is wrong, Bill. And you demonize me for it."

    That comment was, by no means, intended to be a criticism, merely an observation about how I understand your thinking.

    So, help me understand what dogma, or prescribed doctrine has to do with Christian Nationalism. Try as I might, I'm not making your connection.

    Certainly, there are things Christians believe. But,...

  48. by Ponderer on August 16, 2024 8:04 am

    "So, help me understand what dogma, or prescribed doctrine has to do with Christian Nationalism." -Hate

    🙄

    "James Talarico has views on abortion and LGBT rights and immigration, based on what he thinks the Bible teaches... and, like the Moral Majority gang, he advocates for those Christian teachings to be the law of the land." -Hate

    How 'bout if first, you link me to anywhere where James Talarico said anything that could ever be considered Christian Nationalism or ever said anything about wanting to make any Christian teachings "the law of the land".

    You kind of obfuscated the discussion away from addressing that massive whopper of a flaming lie that you pulled out of your ass.

    I will concede, you are an absolute master at doing that.

  49. by oldedude on August 16, 2024 8:11 am
    Lead- I think we're pretty much on the same page. I will admit though, my knowledge isn't close to what yours is. I'm still pretty new and studying every chance I get. I am with you on the thinking v. doing. Although at this point, I only have the basics to think on, and I know the little quips my mom used to say. and couldn't tell you where it came from. AND I'm getting it. I need to listen to family, because their knowledge is much better than mine. Although. They are all "my way or the highway, because "I know the 'truth!'" (very Calvinist).

    I'm still meditating on the Apostles' Creed. I have lived my life in a spirit of helping others and being of service to others. So we may be reversed. I need to learn more "dogma" to understand the immense amount I should know. I'm going to be very happy when I can mesh them together.

    So. When I'm wrong, I need to hear your viewpoint. And you can direct that to me so I make sure I look at it.

    I appreciate this discussion. I've always said that liberalism was a religion, and now have proof. It seems to me it's kind of like the LDS. They claim Christianity, but the Christians don't claim them.


  50. by Ponderer on August 16, 2024 8:13 am

    "Since I became a follower of Jesus, I have tried to understand what Christianity was in its most primitive form. And, to live it as best I can." -Hate

    And bearing false witness against others is just part of living your life how Jesus taught His followers to live. I see.

  51. by oldedude on August 16, 2024 8:50 am
    That's pretty ballsey, how did you come upon that?

  52. by Indy! on August 16, 2024 10:25 am

    By reading the posts on the board, Odorous.


  53. by HatetheSwamp on August 16, 2024 11:12 am

    Re: James Talarico. It depends on how you define a Christian Nationalist. I don't think he's a Christian Nationalist but, I think that maybe, if you're honest, YOU should.

    For myself, based on what the words mean, I don't know any. That's been my point from the beginning. And, ask OD, I think I've been clear.

  54. by HatetheSwamp on August 16, 2024 11:18 am

    po,

    Re: And bearing false witness against others is just part of living your life how Jesus taught His followers to live. I see.

    Ephesians 4 commands disciples to be "speaking the truth in love."

    One of my mom's favorite saying was that sometimes truth hurt.

  55. by oldedude on August 16, 2024 11:25 am
    By reading the posts on the board, Odorous.
    So you get to answer for her now? Sounds like you're saying that women don't get a voice.🤔 How very "macho" of you.🤣

  56. by Indy! on August 16, 2024 11:39 am

    Sounds like you had nothing to say so you reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeached as high as your little elderly arms could reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeach and came up with.... nothing again.

  57. by oldedude on August 16, 2024 2:53 pm
    You're not worth my time.

  58. by Ponderer on August 16, 2024 4:27 pm

    "[...] and, like the Moral Majority gang, he advocates for those Christian teachings to be the law of the land." -Hate

    "How 'bout if first, you link me to anywhere where James Talarico said anything that could ever be considered Christian Nationalism or ever said anything about wanting to make any Christian teachings "the law of the land"" -me, asking Hate to produce evidence that he didn't just bare false witness against his brother.

    That was a pretty specific accusation you made there, Bill. Either you heard something about him advocating to make any Christian teachings "the law of the land", or you just bore false witness against him by pulling that flaming bullshit out of your stinking, lying ass.

    Which was it, Bill?

    Who reported on this "advocating" of his? Did you see a video of his that I didn't? Did Truth Social do a piece on him? Where'd you become aware of this "advocating" of his, for you to feel so confident in declaring him an advocate come from, you lying sack of wet, stinking lying shit?




  59. by Ponderer on August 16, 2024 4:28 pm

    Do you need a definition of the meaning of the word advocating...?

  60. by HatetheSwamp on August 16, 2024 5:30 pm

    po,

    Are you denying that he advocated for his notion of Christian laws to protect women's rights? LGBT people? Immigrants!!!!!?

  61. by Ponderer on August 16, 2024 6:00 pm

    I realize how pointless it is to ask, but what are you talking about?

  62. by oldedude on August 16, 2024 6:11 pm
    It's a bunch of UUC folks claiming to be "Christian" that are for kammy and her kuck.

    And they're as open to trumpster as po. If that tells you anything.

  63. by oldedude on August 16, 2024 6:12 pm
    sorry, wrong thread.

  64. by Ponderer on August 17, 2024 12:52 am

    That's okay, od. I'm sure it wouldn't have meant anything in any other thread either.

  65. by oldedude on August 17, 2024 3:05 am
    And you actually wonder why you don't deserve any respect at all? Even as a human being?

  66. by HatetheSwamp on August 17, 2024 3:53 am

    Re: "I realize how pointless it is to ask, but what are you talking about?"

    po,

    Watch the EFFINsermon. Go to 6:25. He preaches about what a TRUE Christian Nation does: forgive student debt, health-care for all, LGBTphilia, etc. etc.. Pure socialism. Baha.

    But, because you agree, it's just, well, right, and not a call for a blending of Christianity and the state. Keehee hoo, ha! But, when evangelicals do it, it's Christian Nationalism. Am I right?

    No one I know brings their preferences and prejudices to every moment of their life as enthusiastically as do you, po. You are puuuure subjectivity. And, this is proof.

  67. by Ponderer on August 17, 2024 9:01 am

    "He preaches about what a TRUE Christian Nation does: forgive student debt, health-care for all, LGBTphilia, etc. etc.. Pure socialism. Baha." -Hate


    Wow. Valiantly flailing effort there, Bill. But no cigar. You're just wrong.


    Describing what a utopian country, for example, would look like does not automatically make one an advocate for taking steps to have the government to enact laws to force the world into being a utopia. You went miles off the tracks on this one Bill.

    Just because he hypothesized about what an actually Christian nation would look like, compared to what the Project 2025 Christian Nationalists intend to do, does not mean that he is "advocating" for it to be brought about by taking over the government and having it make it come about using laws.

    You really missed this one bad, Bill.

    He was illuminating the tremendously stark contrast (which is kind of a form of comparison, and we know how incompetent you are as a conservative with those) between the sort of things that a truly "Christian" country would do and have as policies if it was truly guided by the teachings of Christ... and the sort of things that Project 2025 Christian Nationalists are currently advocating to foist on this country and will if Trump is elected. Things that have nothing at all to do with the teachings of Christ. In fact, for the most part what Project 2025 Christian Nationalists are advocating to be done to this country and its people is the antithesis of the teachings of Christ. That was his point.

    And you missed it horribly. And I'll warrant probably with intention.

    He was pointing out how a "Christian" nation under the Project 2025 Christian Nationalists would be the complete and absolutely unchristian opposite of what a hypothetical, real Christian nation would look like. That's all he was doing. And it was pretty clear.


    Glad I could help you out with this, Bill.








  68. by Ponderer on August 17, 2024 9:02 am

    Sorry. That emoji was supposed to be this one:


  69. by HatetheSwamp on August 17, 2024 9:13 am

    Re: Describing what a utopian country, for example, would look like...

    But, he's talking about genuinely Christian nation, not Utopia.

    Again. My point is that you have failed to show me a conservative advocating a Christian nation more aggressively than that.

    And, po, bahahahahahahahahahaha haha ha...

    Re: ...the sort of things that Project 2025 Christian Nationalists...

    C'mon man. Gimme a break. Project 2025 is from the extremely secular Heritage Foundation.

    I try to take you seriously. So, help me out.

    en.m.wikipedia.org

  70. by Ponderer on August 17, 2024 9:41 am

    "But, he's talking about genuinely Christian nation, not Utopia." -Hate

    I knew trying to use an analogy was pointless with you and a total waste of time. It was such a simple one too.

    Using a comparison to get a conservative MAGA Hat to understand something is about as useful as trying to explain the workings of an internal combustion engine to a dog.


    "Again. My point is that you have failed to show me a conservative advocating a Christian nation more aggressively than that." -Hate

    And again, I gave you a link to around two dozen who worked in Trump's administration.


    "C'mon man. Gimme a break. Project 2025 is from the extremely secular Heritage Foundation." -Hate

    Sure it is. So was every one of Trump's Supreme Court nominations. So was his pick of a vice president. All of whom are currently trying to steer this country towards being an authoritarian theocracy by means of Project 2025. The entire Heritage Foundation is not made up entirely of atheists you know. In fact, I'd wager that atheists are an extreme minority there..


    And you haven't got afucking clue what's in Project 2025 anyway, do you. You haven't got afucking clue what the hell you're even talking about.
    amazon.com

  71. by HatetheSwamp on August 17, 2024 10:02 am

    Re: I knew trying to use an analogy was pointless with you and a total waste of time. It was such a simple one too.

    Bull$#!t. As a Christian, he was criticizing what's being said and done by others in the Name of Jesus about the laws of the nation.

    Re: And again, I gave you a link to around two dozen who worked in Trump's administration.

    That day, about a half dozen threads were popping. I missed it. Sorry. Could you give me the thread and the number of your post, please?

    Re: ...afucking clue what's in Project 2025 anyway...

    po,

    I monitor right-wing media every day. I knew all about Project 2025 about a year before the metaphorical Rachel caught wind of it. It came out in April 023. I've known about it since then. It was a big deal over here... but it's not MAGA. It's very anti MAGA in many ways... very 80s conservative... very early Limbaugh.

  72. by islander on August 17, 2024 10:36 am

    I told myself I was not going to waste any time here any more but I do occaisionaly click on the site and scan the posts. I can't believe this argument is still going on and Hate is still pretending there is no such thing as Christian Nationalism !! 🤣

    "“We need to be the party of nationalism and I’m a Christian, and I say it proudly, we should be Christian nationalists,” Greene said in an interview while attending the Turning Point USA Student Action Summit in Florida on Saturday. Her self-avowal of Christian nationalism follows her claim last month that Christian nationalism is “nothing to be afraid of,” and that the “movement” will solve school shootings and “sexual immorality” in America." ~Marjorie Taylor Greene


    cnn.com

  73. by oldedude on August 17, 2024 10:48 am
    What I think is (kind of) funny, is that no one here has ever lived in a theocracy, and doesn't really know what it entails. I've lived in Saudi (THE second theocracy), Afghanistan (THE GREATEST theocracy), Oman, just to name those three on each end of a triangular pendulum of Islamic theocracies. Saudi has the responsibility of having both Mecca and Medina in their country, the two holiest cities in the Islamic world. Afghanistan is just filled with assholes who feel it is their lot in life to murder their own people. Oman is a country I could live in. They are the UUC of the Islamic world, which makes it palatable to most anyone. They did take my Makers during Ramadan though...

    So I'm thinking that someone has an over-active imagination...

  74. by HatetheSwamp on August 17, 2024 10:51 am

    isle,

    As they sang on WELCOME BACK KOTTER, Welcome Back.

    My argument is a tad more nuanced than you give me credit for. I'm saying that no one y'nes have identified is a Christian Nationalist... based on what the words mean.

    And, Marjorie Taylor Greene? C'mon man. Gimme a break! How bout quoting someone sane... and representative.

    Show me, in your case, a white evangelical, more committed to making this a Christian Nation than is James Talarico, passing laws on student debt, abortion immigration. And, I'll thank you.

     View Video

  75. by HatetheSwamp on August 17, 2024 10:54 am

    Re: What I think is (kind of) funny, is that no one here has ever lived in a theocracy

    Bang on, OD.

    I'll add. Living in Israel back in the day, the degree to which Orthodox Judaism dominated, that'd be a blending of religion and state. But, none of that's gone on here for the past 60 years, at least.

  76. by islander on August 17, 2024 11:18 am

    C'mon man. Gimme a break! How bout quoting someone sane... and representative. ~ Hate

    So now you are asking just for the names of sane Christian Nationalists?

    I admit to not being here for a while but did somebody say that all Christian Nationalists have to be sane? Is that a requirement?

    How about Josh Hawley? Do you figure he's sane?

  77. by HatetheSwamp on August 17, 2024 11:31 am

    Hawley is a fascinating figure. He's a former prosecutor and often speaks polemically. You'd want to carefully consider context before you honestly quote him literally. He often employs hyperbole for effect.

    ... but, if you have something, I'll be happy to look at it.

  78. by islander on August 17, 2024 11:49 am

    Hate, So do you or do you not consider Josh Hawley sane ?

  79. by Indy! on August 17, 2024 12:05 pm

    by HatetheSwamp on August 17, 2024 11:31 am

    Hawley is a fascinating figure.


    Actual video of PB being fascinated by Josh Hawley...

  80. by HatetheSwamp on August 17, 2024 12:06 pm

    Very. But, waaaaaaay too clever for you to justify arguing he's anything like MTG.

    He is a deeply devoted Christian. If you have something that you want to bat around, I'm just lounging on the sofa listening to a Michael Connelly audio book.

  81. by islander on August 17, 2024 12:15 pm

    Hate, Ok, so you do consider Josh Hawley sane.

    Would you believe him if he said he embraces the ideology of Christian Nationalism?

  82. by HatetheSwamp on August 17, 2024 12:24 pm

    If he really said that and wasn't speaking rhetorically, yeah.

  83. by islander on August 17, 2024 1:02 pm

    Hate,

    Yes he really said that, in fact he’s said it on more than one occassion. Keep in mind, Christian Nationalism is not a religion or an organization that you join, it’s an ideology.
    


    “Some will say now that I am calling America a Christian nation. And so I am. And some will say I am advocating Christian Nationalism. And so I do.” ~ Josh Hawley ...

    Sen. Josh Hawley made that declaration to applause at the National Conservatism Conference in Washington, D.C., on Monday (July 8)

    Ever heard of the “New Apostolic Reformation” ?

    If not, check it out.

  84. by Indy! on August 17, 2024 1:33 pm

    Peebs - being in favor of a Christian nation and a member of the Christian Nationalist movement, knows first hand how un-American his thoughts and actions are - therefore he must pretend the idea doesn't even exist. Just as he must pretend to "support Kammy" even though everyone in his life knows he's pulling the lever marked "TRUMP"* on election day.


    *That is - of course - if Trump has not abdicated his golden throne to Guy Liner, his sketchy veep candidate.

  85. by HatetheSwamp on August 17, 2024 1:53 pm

    All the sources I've found on the NAR are, in my opinion, from the wacko extreme of Curt's Holy Trinity and po's metaphorical Rachel.

    I, personally, don't trust them to be objective. If I saw a decent article from, say, The Hill, I'd take it as gospel.

    Where you get your opinions from has to be a factor in how legitimate I consider your opinions to be. You understand that, right?


    Re: "“Some will say now that I am calling America a Christian nation. And so I am. And some will say I am advocating Christian Nationalism. And so I do.” ~ Josh Hawley"

    Who supplied you with that quote? That has to matter. You know that?

  86. by Indy! on August 17, 2024 3:09 pm

    Peebs, 90% of the media on television is NOT making shit up. You're used to being lied to because Fox does that kind of thing - change quotes, misidentify party when they think people won't notice, lie by ommission 24/7/365*, etc.... etc...


    *Okay, everybody does that. Fox just does it more.


  87. by oldedude on August 17, 2024 4:39 pm
    Every station has a Process of misinformation. It's how much they can spin the facts and what they want to say. If you don't understand that, you're believing lies.

    FOX? They push the pedojr computer story, which everyone else (read liberal MSM) said was "Russian propaganda" and a lie for a year. You all snickered when it was brought up. THEN when the FBI/DOJ actually came out and say they vetted the computer and certified it as pedojr's, AND it had incriminating evidence on it. Where is it you asked? DOJ will not give the information to congress, presumably until after the election (maybe).

    Same thing happened with the Steele Dossier. What's interesting is that curt still insists it's a good document when the FBI/DOJ say it's a worthless POS (and they paid for it). AND a DOJ lawyer got fired over using it in subpoena's. And FBI is such a bunch of inbreds, they allowed Senior Agents lie to the FISA courts and then retire with their full retirement.

  88. by islander on August 17, 2024 5:01 pm

    “Some will say now that I am calling America a Christian nation. And so I am. And some will say I am advocating Christian Nationalism. And so I do.” ~ Josh Hawley"

    Hate asks ~ "Who supplied you with that quote? That has to matter. You know that?"

    I don’t why you are so surprised, or have such a hard time believing that 1) Christian Nationalism is a real ideology and 2) that many Americans including josh Hawley embrace and support that ideology.

    Anyway Listen carefully to Josh Hawley’s words and/or read the 4th paragraph in the transcript of his speech:

    hawley.senate.gov
    View Video

  89. by Indy! on August 17, 2024 5:03 pm

    You never heard a peep out of me over Hunter's laptop because I wasn't even on the board when that went down and I didn't care when people brought it up on other social media sites. When anyone asked, my position has always been the same... If Hunter broke any laws and the authorities have the evidence to convict him? Fine by me - do it. That goes for every politician... and their friends... and relatives. I've never advocated for LESS law enforcement when a crime has been committed by a politician or elected official - I've always advocated for MORE.

    So far as the Steele Dossier, I was probably the first person on the board to question it's veracity. That was LONG BEFORE it was happening in the media or anywhere else. I made a lot of jokes about the GOP really being Russian (which is accurate, btw) - but so far as actually believing it was going to bring down Trump? Please. Presidents do not go to jail - especially over a bunch of rumor and innuendo.

  90. by Navy2711 on August 17, 2024 10:50 pm
    "James Talarico has views on abortion and LGBT rights and immigration, based on what he thinks the Bible teaches... and, like the Moral Majority gang, he advocates for those Christian teachings to be the law of the land. What's the difference?" -Hate the Swamp

    Clearly, Talarico doesn't advocate for the laws to reflect his Biblical beliefs simply because they are found in the Bible. He's not saying, "The Bible says so, therefore the law must be so." He's allowed to have his beliefs and advocate for what the laws should be, just like anyone else. And if that were to come pass, then America would be a "Christian nation" in his eyes, in that its values would reflect the values of the Bible. The "difference" is that he's not calling on what most Christians believe is the inherent power of Christianity to determine the state of things in America.

  91. by HatetheSwamp on August 17, 2024 11:19 pm

    isle,

    Hawley: "Because of our Christian heritage, we protect the liberty of all to worship according to conscience. Because of our Christian tradition, we welcome people of all races and ethnic backgrounds to join a nation constituted by common loves.

    The truth is, Christian nationalism is not a threat to American democracy. Christian nationalism founded American democracy. And it is the best form of democracy yet devised by man: the most just, the most free, the most humane and praiseworthy."


    Now we're getting somewhere.

    So, isle, that's Hawley's definition of Christian Nationalism.

    That's what you're afraid of? Oy freakin friggin EFFINvey, man!

    IMO, if that's Christian Nationalism, let's have about 300,000,000 more Christian Nationalists. Don't you agree?

    The way you were talking, I thought Christian Nationalists wanted to repeal the First Amendment, not welcome "all" to worship according to "conscience."

    Why, isle, do you think Christian Nationalism is a bad thing?

  92. by islander on August 18, 2024 5:57 am

    Glad to see Hate appears to be making progress... The last time I was here he didn’t believe there was such a thing as Christian Nationalism. Now he finally acknowledges that it’s a real thing and he even knows some Christian Nationalists like Josh and Marjorie.

    

I’ll probably stop by now and then, until then it’s back to the real world for me.

    Cheers !! 🍻

  93. by HatetheSwamp on August 18, 2024 6:02 am

    isle,

    As far as I am concerned, you're welcome here always.

  94. by Ponderer on August 18, 2024 8:17 am

    "Clearly, Talarico doesn't advocate for the laws to reflect his Biblical beliefs simply because they are found in the Bible." -Navy

    Thanks. It seemed pretty obvious to me that was the case also. But Hate's gottt argue about something. Even if he has to pull something out of his ass to argue about.

  95. by HatetheSwamp on August 18, 2024 10:10 am

    So, now that isle's gone,...

    What's so wrong with:

    ...we protect the liberty of all to worship according to conscience...we welcome people of all races and ethnic backgrounds to join a nation constituted by common loves.

    I expected good progressives wouldn't oppose that.

    He'p me out.

  96. by Donna on August 18, 2024 11:31 am

    "I don’t why you are so surprised, or have such a hard time believing that 1) Christian Nationalism is a real ideology and 2) that many Americans including josh Hawley embrace and support that ideology." - islander

    Welcome back!

    Hts doesn't handle uncomfortable truths very well, so he pretends that they aren't real. He'd keep a psychiatrist busy for years.





  97. by oldedude on August 18, 2024 11:52 am
    I guess my "disagreement" with you is that Hawley is a "Christian." with a few of his stances. Like I said before. It's like the LDS who claim to be Christian, and yet the Christians don't claim them.

    I think the UUC is the "church" that wokesters can "claim" a mainstream religion because they want to be accepted by the Christian community.

  98. by Navy2711 on August 18, 2024 12:17 pm
    HateTheSwamp: Bro, youre not even clear on what Christian nationalism IS. By its very dictionary definition, it is a threat to democracy. It is fundamentally incompatible with democracy. But your question gives me an opportunity to rant:

    My problem with it is that America was NOT founded on Christianity and its ideals are not exclusive to Christianity. I dont CARE what Christians want to "protect" or who they want to "welcome." ANY time the discussion turns to American government, I want Christians to completely forget they are Christians. I want them to vote, legislate and act with separation of church and state foremost in mind. The only time they should be invoking their Christianity is when theyre in their pretty buildings or their own homes, worshipping Sky Daddy.

    If they did that, then we wouldn't even need to have this discussion.

    Oh, and by the way -- The FBI and the intelligence community disagree with you about CN being a threat. But thats only because ... deep state something or other, right?

  99. by HatetheSwamp on August 18, 2024 12:19 pm

    Donna,

    Hawley's take on Christian Nationalism is a lot different than what y'nes have been sayin.

    It almost makes me want to be one. How about you?

  100. by oldedude on August 18, 2024 12:42 pm
    The FBI and the intelligence community disagree with you about CN being a threat.
    That means nothing with they're left-wing wokesters. The only people the FBI will put on their terrorist watch list are conservatives (minus Jihaadists). Parents supporting their kids in school went above the threat from Radical Islamists. So again, such a simplistic answer to that question.

  101. by Donna on August 18, 2024 12:47 pm

    I don't follow Josh Hawley, nor do I know or care what his take on Christian Nationalism is, but I agree with everything Talarico said in that sermon.

  102. by HatetheSwamp on August 18, 2024 1:04 pm

    Donna,

    This is isle's Josh Hawley Christian Nationalism gotcha.

    It's a less than five minute read. So, if you don't mind...

    hawley.senate.gov

  103. by oldedude on August 18, 2024 1:06 pm
    I'm going back to the conversation between po and Lead.
    Maybe something to think on. When do CORE VALUES become the lead in "*****ist (or whatever religion you want)? If I were raised in an Islamist family, I would look at things differently than I would being raised in a US Midwest farm as a Jehovah Witness. My core values would be a part of me regardless. If I believe the laws in my country should mimic my core values (which I'd argue are pretty normal) does that make me a "whatever" Nationalist? Or is there a level of nationalist I have to be to make that determination? Would I make a big deal out of it? I don't think so, and I may not even feel I'm a whacko in this equation.

  104. by Navy2711 on August 18, 2024 2:35 pm
    To OD: "[The FBI and intelligence communities] are left-wing wokesters."

    Yes, of course. Of COURSE they are. How convenient.

    _____________

    To all: I recently asked my MAGA step-father if everyone involved in dismissing all 86 of Trump's "Stop The Steal" lawsuits were part of one grand conspiracy. He answered that the judges, specifically, are. I reminded him that almost half of those judges were Trump appointees. You'll be shocked to learn that he didnt care, and it didnt give him the slightest pause.

  105. by oldedude on August 18, 2024 2:50 pm
    are you really whatshername?
    "[The FBI and intelligence communities] are left-wing wokesters."
    Not what I said and you know that you're a liar. bitch.

  106. by Indy! on August 18, 2024 2:54 pm

    I'm with you on that one, Navy. Spent some time with my dad watching Fox and it's understandable. Fox has totally brainwashed the GOP.

  107. by HatetheSwamp on August 18, 2024 3:57 pm

    Re: "Fox has totally brainwashed the GOP."

    Bull$#ˇt! Murdock did everything he could think of to get DeSantis the nomination.

  108. by Indy! on August 18, 2024 4:29 pm

    Right. Was that before or after he gave Trump 100X more free air time?

  109. by HatetheSwamp on August 19, 2024 3:43 am

    So, Indy. You're becoming LittleCurt? Pretending to be a Fox watcher, eh? So, what ya think of Jessica's botox treatment? Pretty foxy for a 40 year old Jew? Ain't?

  110. by oldedude on August 19, 2024 4:29 am
    Chalk that up to a dim that watch FoxNews. Now he needs to start on OAN and get into the other right wing channels! Another low information voter that wants better information.

  111. by HatetheSwamp on August 19, 2024 6:38 am

    And,...

    Josh Hawley is a hoot and he certainly diddled with isle's obsession with Christian Nationalism but, gang,...

    ...based on what the words mean? Josh Hawley ain't Christian Nationalist.

    I just wanted isle to have his moment. Keehee ha, ahhhhhhhhhhh.

  112. by Ponderer on August 19, 2024 7:42 am

    See? This is then pointlessness of responding to Hate that I've been talking about.

    Even when he is given an example of a person who actually declares publicly that he is a Christian Nationalist, Hate won't accept that as an example of someone who is a Christian Nationalist.

    You know, you're quite the fuckingasshole, Bill.

  113. by Ponderer on August 19, 2024 7:48 am





    "...based on what the words mean?" -Hate, who pretty much never knows what words mean and often must be given a dictionary definition of simple words






  114. by HatetheSwamp on August 19, 2024 7:52 am

    po,

    C'mon man. Gimme a break.

    Read Hawley's little speech. If he's really a Christian Nationalist and you ain't, then you're evil. Well,... bahaha.

    He's mocking the po and isle lot. Either you're stoopid... and, I continue to say you ain't... but, then, maybe...

    When isle brought Hawley up, I warned isle that Hawley's clever. He's the most clever orator in the Swamp these days. I also noted to isle, before he linked to Hawley's speech, that Hawley usually speaks rhetorically... as he is here.

    I challenge you to read the speech and splain to me, if that's Christian Nationalism, how being a Christian Nationalist is a bad thing.

    View Video

  115. by Donna on August 19, 2024 7:54 am

    Hts, I don't giving a flying fuck about Hawley's Christian Nationalism. To deny that there's a Christian Nationalist movement, though, is absurd. I have no doubts that you would have the same objection to anyone who described themself as a Christian Nationalist, so I'm not at all interested in wasting any of my time arguing with you over something I don't give a rat's ass about.

    You asked for names of Christian Nationalists, and you were given names of people who describe thwmselves as Christian Naionalists. If that's not good enough for you, fine, I cam live with that.






  116. by HatetheSwamp on August 19, 2024 8:02 am

    Donna,

    Re: To deny that there's a Christian Nationalist movement, though, is absurd...


    Now, you c'mon man. Gimme a break.

    Reread pb's EFFINhundreds of posts on the issue. pb HAS NEVER EVER SAID THAT THERE'S NO CHRISTIAN NATIONALIST MOVEMENT.

    What pb says that no one y'nes accuse of being a Christian Nationalist is a Christian Nationalist, based on what the words mean.

    More recently, he's said that if the people y'nes accuse of Christian Nationalism are Christian Nationalists, then James Talarico absolutely is one, too.

    And, most recently, he's said if Josh Hawley is a Christian Nationalist and you ain't, you are evil.

  117. by Donna on August 19, 2024 8:34 am

    Well if you admit that there's a Christian Nationalist movement, then it stands to reason that there are Christian Nationalists, right?

  118. by HatetheSwamp on August 19, 2024 8:45 am

    Exactly.

    But, what I see in many of you progressive secularists is the need to define every Christian who goes to church once or twice a year or more and is conservative as someone who wants to revoke the First Amendment and establish a state church.

  119. by Donna on August 19, 2024 8:51 am

    So you wanted 5 names so that you could shoot them down as false examples, right?

  120. by HatetheSwamp on August 19, 2024 10:24 am

    I want people who are Christian Nationalists based on what the words mean.

    That would include repeal of the Religion Clauses of the First Amendment. This can't be a Christian Nation as long as they're around, uh!?

  121. by Indy! on August 19, 2024 10:30 am

    Exactly, Donna. Which is why I pulled out of this one after giving PB six seven easily verifiable examples of "Christian" nationalists. I bet you could even find personal quotes from mine admitting they were CNs if someone named PB really wanted to know.

  122. by Curt_Anderson on August 19, 2024 10:46 am
    Republican Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene explicitly labeled herself a Christian nationalist on Saturday. This shocking statement by a sitting member of Congress should serve as a wake-up call to everyone, and particularly, I believe, to Christians.

    “We need to be the party of nationalism and I’m a Christian, and I say it proudly, we should be Christian nationalists,” Greene said in an interview while attending the Turning Point USA Student Action Summit in Florida on Saturday. Her self-avowal of Christian nationalism follows her claim last month that Christian nationalism is “nothing to be afraid of,” and that the “movement” will solve school shootings and “sexual immorality” in America.

    She is not alone in doing so. Greene’s embrace of Christian nationalism follows closely after troubling remarks from Colorado Republican Rep. Lauren Boebert: “The church is supposed to direct the government, the government is not supposed to direct the church,” she said at a church two days before her primary election (and victory) in late June. “I’m tired of this separation of church and state junk.” And as CNN has reported, public opinion polling shows that support for Christian nationalism is growing among Christians.
    cnn.com

  123. by HatetheSwamp on August 19, 2024 10:55 am

    Gang,

    OD nailed it. A Christian nation would be Saudi Arabia, only Christian, not Muslim.

    MTG and Bobert talk big but, as in most things, they don't know nuthin about nuthin.

  124. by Indy! on August 19, 2024 11:01 am

    That doesn't change anything so far as Curt's two quotes or the fact there is obviously a Christian nationalist movement that needs to be nipped in the butt. Start by either expanding the Court by adding 3 additional jurists, and/or term limits.

  125. by HatetheSwamp on August 19, 2024 11:07 am

    Nice. So what else do you think Greene and Bobert are right about? Bahahahahahahahahahaha.

  126. by oldedude on August 19, 2024 11:23 am
    Donna- Well if you admit that there's a Christian Nationalist movement, then it stands to reason that there are Christian Nationalists, right?
    There are also the burnie bros wanting to set up concentration camps for conservatives. We know they exist. The issue is/was "how mainstream is that thought?" Regarding "American Christian Nationalists" are nearly non-existent compared to other countries. Ireland is a "moderate" example. Both sides are bombing each other, shooting each other in the street, etc.

    Congo, Mali, and many countries in Africa are getting to be extreme examples of religious Nationalism. Iran, Afghanistan and others are worth mentioning. The difference between Christian and Muslim "nationalism" is that Islam considers "the world" as theirs, and as such they can only live in true peace if the rest of the world is taken off the face of the earth. The numbers that have been murdered these areas, where the people live in fear of being abducted and "reeducated" every day. There are lost family members every day. And no one can say a word. Otherwise, they are murdered also. When you mention a Religious Nationalist Movement, those are what I think about.


    Lead- That would include repeal of the Religion Clauses of the First Amendment.
    Yup. Now in a third-world shthole, that's possible because if I speak against you, I'll just kill you and your family.

  127. by islander on August 19, 2024 11:50 am

    "Hawley's take on Christian Nationalism is a lot different than what y'nes have been sayin.

    It almost makes me want to be one. How about you?”     ~ Hate asked the question of Donna but my response is:

    No. Why would I want to be Christian Nationalist like Hawley or any of the others?

    I’m pro-choice and I believe families who want children should have a right to IVF

    I believe in separation of church and state

    Our country is not a Christian nation…It’s a nation where a person is free to be a Christian or any other religion or no religion at all.

    Our laws should not be based on anyone’s religious beliefs. If some people’s religious beliefs coincide with our laws that’s fine.

    I don’t want Christianity (or any other religion) to be able to use the power of the state in such a way that makes it possible for any religion to dominant our moral and cultural order.

    I could go on but I think you get the picture.

  128. by Donna on August 19, 2024 11:51 am

    No one's saying that CNism is dominant, but it is growing and it's worldwide.

  129. by HatetheSwamp on August 19, 2024 12:36 pm

    isle,

    Re: "No. Why would I want to be Christian Nationalist like Hawley or any of the others?

    I’m pro-choice and I believe families who want children should have a right to IVF

    I believe in separation of church and state."

    Groovy. Where does Hawley demand anyone not be pro-choice? And, bruh, he says that in his Christian Nationalism, "we protect the liberty of all to worship according to conscience and we welcome people of all races and ethnic backgrounds to join a nation constituted by common loves.

    I'd a thought you'd be for all of that. What in that are you against?

    Re: Our laws should not be based on anyone’s religious beliefs. If some people’s religious beliefs coincide with our laws that’s fine.

    Then, as I've said, you should be kickin James Talarico's a$$ because all of his beliefs are appropriate to make the focus of a sermon.

  130. by Indy! on August 19, 2024 12:43 pm

    "Christian Nationalists" - a common phrase in the English lexicon that can be defined by a simple google search.

    "White Mainline Protestant Nationalism" - a made-up term that doesn't exist anywhere in the world outside of this board.

  131. by Donna on August 19, 2024 12:46 pm

    Talarico isn't trying to turn his beliefs into laws or impose them on peoplw who don't share his beliefs. Huge difference. You couldn't see that difference without my help?

  132. by Curt_Anderson on August 19, 2024 12:49 pm
    I don't want to read all 100+ comments in this thread, but can anybody briefly explain why HtS is in such fervent denial of the existence of Christian Nationalists?

    Throughout 2023, PRRI interviewed more than 22,000 adults as part of its American Values Atlas, which provides for the first time the ability to estimate support for Christian nationalism in all 50 states. Additionally, this new analysis examines how religion, party, education, race, and other factors intersect with Christian nationalist views.

    Roughly three in ten Americans qualify as Christian nationalism Adherents or Sympathizers.

    Three in ten Americans qualify as Christian nationalism Adherents (10%) or Sympathizers (20%), compared with two-thirds who qualify as Skeptics (37%) or Rejecters (30%).

    prri.org

  133. by HatetheSwamp on August 19, 2024 12:53 pm

    Donna,

    C'mon!

    You think Talarico doesn't vote for candidates who are pro-choice, pro-LGBT and pro immigration... and against candidates who oppose those things?

  134. by HatetheSwamp on August 19, 2024 12:57 pm

    And, Curt. Read #116. pb knows that there are Christian Nationalists. But, words mean stuff and no one the SS progressives here accuse of being Christian Nationalists meet the definition.

  135. by Donna on August 19, 2024 1:03 pm

    Which religious-based laws is Talarico trying to impose on the general population? Nane 5 1.

  136. by HatetheSwamp on August 19, 2024 1:06 pm

    Donna,

    What!!!!!?

  137. by islander on August 19, 2024 2:30 pm

    Even when they themselves claim they are Christian Nationalists ...Hate will say, No they're not.

    Even when they claim, like Hawley did, "And some will say now that I am calling America a Christian nation. And so I am" ...Hate will not acknowledge that Hawley claims this is a Christian Nation (it's not).

    Even when Hawley said "Christian nationalism founded American democracy."(it didn't) ...Hate will not acknowledge he said it.

    Even when Hawley voted to ban IVF claiming, "This isn’t about IVF. This is about their continuing war on people of faith” ...Hate will ignore it.

    Even when Hawley says, "This is true whether you are a Christian or not, a person of a different faith or none at all. The CHRISTIAN POLITICAL tradition is our tradition; it is the American tradition; (we don't have a religious, let alone Christian political tradition, that's clear in the first amendment "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion." ...Hate will just look the other way.

    I think you get the picture.😁

    By the way, Thanks for the welcome, Donna !! 🍻

  138. by Donna on August 19, 2024 2:33 pm


  139. by Ponderer on August 19, 2024 3:59 pm

    Nailed it, Isle.

  140. by oldedude on August 19, 2024 4:38 pm
    Isle,
    Interesting and I agree with you for the most part.

    Apparently you haven't been reading though. Lead has brought up the First Amendment a few times. And for good reason. First, the government won't have an official Religion. Two, the country needs to change that primary amendment to have an official religion.

    Especially the two people that have actually read law know that. Not sure about anyone else on this site, although I have my thoughts about several being able to "read" "law."
    Written well, you just didn't have facts straight.

  141. by HatetheSwamp on August 20, 2024 4:15 am

    OD,

    On the First Amendment. Bang on. pb's brought it up numerous times in this thread.

    isle,

    Show me Hawley calling for the repeal of the First Amendment. Or MTG. Or Bobert. Any congressional GOP.

    Based on what the words mean, no American can be a... CHRISTIAN... NATIONALIST... without demanding that the First Amendment be $hot to $hit. And, no one does that... at least, among the crowd that isle and po and Donna love to hate!

    Why?

    BECAUSE, BASED ON WHAT THE WORDS MEAN, THEY AIN'T CHRISTIAN NATIONALISTS!!!!!

    *****

    Regarding Hawley's, "The CHRISTIAN POLITICAL tradition is our tradition; it is the American tradition;..."

    Now, remember. Ole pb has his degree in American Religious History.

    Hawley actually, is almost 100% correct, though it'd be most accurate to change his "Christian political tradition" to (mostly) "BAPTIST political tradition."


    isle,

    You know that Thomas Jefferson coined the phrase "wall of separation between church and state," ain't? Jefferson created the metaphor in a letter to the Danbury BAPTISTS.

    Truth? The concept of separation of church and state has roots in the ideas of Roger Williams, a Baptist Dissenter and founder of Rhode Island. In 1644, Williams called for a "wall or hedge of separation" between the secular world and the church, believing that mixing the two would corrupt both. He created a colony where everyone had the right to worship freely.

    Truth? The First Amendment came about through the happy coincidence that religious dissenters... Baptists, Presbyterians, Methodists, Quakers here in Pennsylvania, et.al.... and Virginia Enlightenment thinkers, like Jefferson and Madison from Virginia... all were vehement that the notion of a Federal State Church was anathema.

    So, isle, and, as pb noted,... the US first freedom in the First Amendment... is freedom of religion, the quintessential Christian contribution to the Bill of Rights. That's what Hawley refers to... and, he's bang on.

    Start showing me American Christians who call for the repeal of the First Amendment and we'll join arms. But, Josh Hawley ain't one of them.


    This thread started when pb challenged y'nes to, based on what the words mean name five CHRISTIAN NATIONALISTS.

    H€ck. Name one.

  142. by Ponderer on August 20, 2024 8:12 am

    Josh Hawley.

  143. by oldedude on August 20, 2024 10:06 am
    Lead-
    I agree with that. I'm sure there are "some" demanding this become a Theocracy. And there are also Muslims actively trying to make the US a Theocracy (along with GB, FR, GE,IT, GR, ES, etc...).

    WE (you and I know and understand the issues with making this a theocracy. The "what ifs" are just fictional paranoia except when it comes to the left building a theocracy. They're already trying everything they can to impose the religion of liberalism on the rest of the country. Why not make it official?

    It's funny. We don't have "Mexicans" down here much. We DO get Colombians, Nicaraguans, Cubanos, Salvadorians, etc. The ones that are working (which is how we have contact with them as electricians, plumbers, etc) all have a different story. And they all say they don't know where they're going next because the US is going the same way as their country did. They see it. You get promised the world, and the government fails.

  144. by HatetheSwamp on August 20, 2024 10:13 am

    po,

    If Josh Hawley is a Christian Nationalist, then James Talarico is one, too. Those dudes are cut from the same cloth. The only difference is the ideology.

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