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Voters Doubt Biden’s Leadership and Favor Trump, Times/Siena Poll Finds
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James Comer has been big on promises, short on delivery. MAGA is feeling let down.
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So, Curt, can you still say that there's "NO EVIDENCE" that Joe was involved in the Crime Family?
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Oversight and Judiciary Committees Release Hunter Biden Transcript
Politics by Curt_Anderson     February 29, 2024 5:51 pm (Rating: 0.0) Last comment by: HatetheSwamp (13 comments) [101 views]

Fact Check selectors, pages, etc.
DOJ Disagrees with curt, indy
By oldedude
December 6, 2023 4:34 am
Category: Fact Check

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The full report is cited (as usual). I did include the Annotation and Abstract to give you a view of the rest of the report. That way, if you want to read it, great. If not, you can argue until you turn blue about the results. Under the report are some real magazine articles regarding responsible gun owners protecting themselves, their families, etc.
Gun Ownership Provides Effective Self-Defense
(From Gun Control, P 142-149, 1992, Charles P Cozic, ed. -- See NCJ-160164)

Many more criminals are killed or wounded each year by armed citizens than by the police; this proves that owning a gun is possibly the most effective way to protect oneself from crime.

Protection of self, of one's loved ones, of one's home and community is the root of the American tradition of gun ownership. It is a concept cherished from the beginning of time and preserved most democratically within the English common law heritage, in which the defense of home, community, and kingdom rested upon an armed and ready populace.

A survey conducted by Florida State University Professor Gary Kleck estimates that there were approximately 645,000 defensive uses of handguns against persons per year, excluding police or military uses.

The survey also found that guns of all types were used substantially more often defensively than criminally and that gun-wielding civilians in self-defense or some other legally justified cause killed between 1,500 and 2,800 felons annually.

The view that potential crime victims run a greater risk of injury if they are armed has been proven groundless. According to U.S. Justice Department victimization studies analyzed by Kleck, for both robbery and assault, victims who used guns for protection were less likely either to be attacked or injured than victims who responded in any other way, including those who did not resist at all; and victims who resisted robbers with guns were less likely to lose their property.

A follow-up study of rape found that using a gun or knife for protection reduced the likelihood of a completed rape, and using a gun reduced the likelihood of injury to close to zero. Such resistance also reduces the likelihood of psychological trauma.

The decision about whether or not to own a handgun should be made by individual citizens rather than an overprotective government, particularly when the courts have held that governments have no legal responsibility to provide protection when a person's life is threatened.

Ohio murder suspect shot by Fayette County man defending his family during home invasion
FAYETTE COUNTY, Ga. - An Ohio man, who is accused of stabbing to death a 77-year-old woman, was shot by a man defending his family during a home invasion on Thursday, according to the Fayette County Sheriff’s Office.

Michael James Brooks II, 28, of Columbus, Ohio, was recovering in an area hospital on Friday. Once released, he will face home invasion, burglary, and theft by receiving in Georgia and murder charges in Ohio.

Grandma, 72, Fires Revolver to Scare Away Burglar

A 72-year-old grandmother took control of a scary situation when she was confronted by someone trying to break into the Orange County home she shares with her WWII-veteran husband.

A burglar hopped a fence late Saturday, prowled through the backyard and broke into the Coopers’ Stanton, Calif. home in the middle of the night. Not even a barking Rottweiler scared off the intruder.

Armed with a .357 Magnum revolver, Jan Cooper called 911. She was on the phone with a dispatcher when the intruder made it into her yard.

“Back up, you son of a b----,” she yelled. “Back up! Get out of here! Get the hell out of here! Get your butt out! Now!”

Jan Cooper fired a single shot. It missed the intruder by just a few inches, deputies said.

“After I shot, there was rage that took hold,” Jan Cooper said. “My husband — he’d never heard me talk like that before.”

Brandon Perez, 31, was arrested in connection with the intrusion. Pictured below, Perez is currently on probation for burglary, authorities said.

Cited and related links:


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Comments on "DOJ Disagrees with curt, indy":

  1. by Donna on December 6, 2023 6:52 am

    I don't remember Curt saying anything that refutes anything you posted. Indy said "Just try not to kill a friend or family member because that is 6X more likely to happen than for you to ever use it to "defend" yourself". I don't know where he got that statistic, and it couod be wrong, but there's nothing in your post that addresses that claim.

  2. by Curt_Anderson on December 6, 2023 10:10 am
    OD thoughtfully included a link to an article which refutes his OP of the 1992 article by a man named Gary Klerk. As noted in the first link the “corporate author“ of Kleck’s study is the NRA. Read OD’s link “”. Kleck’s numbers, extrapolations and survey methods are highly questionable.

    Kleck seems to be rather gullible. In his phone survey of gun owners, he took the word of those gun owners who used guns in “self protection” situations without question.

    The following is from a Harvard study, which addresses many of the issues raised in this thread:
    4. Most purported self-defense gun uses are gun uses in escalating arguments, and are both socially undesirable and illegal.

  3. by oldedude on December 6, 2023 11:33 am
    curt has constantly supported the Australian/ New Zealand gun laws, which include what he calls "common" "sense laws." Like no knock warrants on a hunch for entering a house without a warrant. He constantly evades the other mass shooting data. And shooting data in general. He has continually been on the side of the perp in shootings (meaning the guy raping the woman) among many other things.

    indy is just being a dick as usual. He actually believe if guns were illegal, there would be no more legal murders.

    Obviously, it bothers you also to see that data. I know it's NEVER on MSN, CNN, or any other of the left's media.

    All three of you show paranoia and complete lack of knowledge about this subject. Although curt did say he shot an AR once... That's the limit of all y'all's knowledge about guns. That's why I posted this. Is to see how your paranoia feeds a fantasyland agenda.

    It's a study that the anti-gun DOJ approved for facts.

    For my part, I have never wanted everyone to have a gun like you (all) will insist will happen.

    Think of it. You would shoot six people before someone would snatch the gun out of your hand and clear it correctly. curt would shoot himself trying to see if there was a round in the chamber, and indy would throw it down and run away because it might decide to go off because it decided to.

    Being responsible with a gun is like being responsible with a car. First, you learn all the rules. What's safe and what isn't. You learn what the gas pedal is, and the brake (and the clutch, but that's an advanced thing). You learn that although it's a little thing not to put your turn signal on, it makes people more comfortable.

    You also learn you don't need a corvette to go to school or work on the farm, even though it's cool. You need a truck for that. And if you live downtown, that ranch truck may be too big to park in the parking garage.

    You learn how to check the oil. What gas to put into the car. Tires, and all the things to keep you safe. You don't let your drunk friend drive. You don't drive drunk.

  4. by oldedude on December 6, 2023 11:36 am
    4. Most purported self-defense gun uses are gun uses in escalating arguments, and are both socially undesirable and illegal.

    That's not defense. Period. That's escalating the argument. And if "haaavard" chooses to put it there, they're wrong.

    Flip side, It may not be illegal.

  5. by Indy! on December 6, 2023 11:57 am

    First off, OD - you have trouble thinking for yourself, so don't try to think for me or anyone else because you would be even farther out of your league than you usually are on this board.

    Secondly, thanks Curt - you saved me the trouble of body slamming OD's usual NRA/Fox nonsense. Yes, this is how they count "guns being used to stop crimes" - they take the word of gun nuts just like OD who have an agenda and are afraid to go thru life without being strapped at all times. Every NRA study is debunked every time they come out by multiple authorities using actual statistics and real world examples. OD has grandma allegedly shooting her gun and another gun nut like himself shooting someone with a knife (snicker).

    Donna asked about my 6X statistic - below is a detailed graphic explaining all the angles of gun ownership and why people in the home are FAR more likely to be injured, killed or commit suicide if there is a gun in their home. There is also a link to the entire article below which comes from Scientific American - not Fox News, the NRA, anti-gun nuts or a corporation with an agenda or financial interest (like OD's.... ahem... "facts")

    The article also points out that in 2015, guns were responsible for 36,000 U.S. deaths, so even if OD's fake numbers WERE true - guns killed between "1500-2800" felons? 🙄 The other side of the coin (gun nuts killing themselves, family members, friends, people playing their radios too loud, black folks being on the wrong street in OD's neighborhood, etc... etc...) obviously far out numbers any "crime prevention" gun ownership brings to a family like OD's living in fear of the world around them.

  6. by Curt_Anderson on December 6, 2023 12:04 pm
    OD linked to an informative article, which includes this addressing Gary Kleck's study. The same article links to this graph below which supports Indy's claim that guns kill more gun owners and their friends and family than guns kill perpetrators of crimes.

    This ambiguity has opened the door to a fierce debate between gun violence researchers and pro-gun advocates, who tend to cite different sets of data. Academics largely rely on the National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS), a twice-yearly poll of crime victims conducted by the federal government, while gun rights activists point to a series of telephone surveys conducted in the early 1990s by a criminologist and self-described “gun control skeptic” named Gary Kleck.

    The NCVS identifies far fewer instances of defensive gun use. According to the most recent firearms violence report, published in April, 2 percent of victims of nonfatal violent crime — that includes rape, sexual assault, robbery, and aggravated assault — and 1 percent of property crime victims use guns in self-defense. According to the survey, firearms were used defensively in 166,900 nonfatal violent crimes between 2014 and 2018, which works out to an average of 33,380 per year. Over the same period, defensive gun use was reported in 183,300 property crimes, or an average of 36,660 per year.

    Taken together, that’s 70,040 instances of defensive gun use per year.

    Notably, the NCVS figure excludes cases of simple assault. There are other caveats: Survey respondents are only asked about defensive measures if they report being victims of certain crimes, including rape, assault, burglary, larceny, and car theft. That means victims of trespassing and commercial crimes are not given the opportunity to report defensive gun use. And respondents aren’t asked directly about guns — they’re asked what they did to protect themselves or their property; it’s up to them to supply specifics.

    Olga Pierce for The Trace
    More than 20 years ago, Kleck, who taught at Florida State University, reported a far higher figure, 2.5 million, and that’s been embraced by gun activists. In 1993, Kleck and his colleague Marc Gertz surveyed 5,000 adults and asked if they or their household members had used a gun for self-defense in the past five years, even if it wasn’t fired. Just over 1 percent of respondents said they did. In their National Self-Defense Survey, published in 1995, Kleck and Gertz extrapolated that figure to the entire adult population of 200 million, concluding that Americans use guns for self-defense as often as 2.1 to 2.5 million times a year.

    Researchers have found several issues with Kleck’s estimates. While the adult population in the United States in 1993 was around 200 million people, not all of them owned guns — only about 42 percent did. So extrapolating the survey results to the entire adult population yields an overestimate. David Hemenway, ​​director of the Harvard Injury Control Research Center, who first addressed “extreme overestimates” of DGUs 25 years ago, pointed out problems with Kleck’s math in 1997:

    Guns were reportedly used by defenders for self-defense in approximately 845,000 burglaries. From sophisticated victimization surveys, however, we know that there were fewer than six million burglaries in the year of the survey and in only 22 percent of those cases was someone certainly at home (1.3 million burglaries). Since only 42 percent of U.S. households own firearms, and since the victims in two thirds of the occupied dwellings were asleep, the 2.5 million figure requires us to believe that burglary victims use their guns in self-defense more than 100 percent of the time.

    Telephone surveys tend to yield high estimates for other reasons, Hemenway says. When it comes to quantifying rare events, even a small amount of misrepresentation on the part of the respondents can skew the results. People sometimes exaggerate when the action they’re describing, like fending off an attacker, is commendable or paints them in a heroic light, a phenomenon known as “social desirability bias.” That alone wouldn’t be enough to yield an overestimate, Hemenway said, but it does when measuring a rare event. “The search for a ‘needle in a haystack’ has major methodological dangers, especially where researchers try to extrapolate the findings to society as a whole,” he wrote in 1997.

    Hemenway says that respondents might also “telescope,” or describe an event that’s outside the time frame that’s being asked about. And crime victims can also misremember traumatic events. Researchers consider the NCVS to be more reliable than randomized telephone surveys because respondents are asked screening questions that help weed out false reports, something that typically isn’t done with telephone polling.

  7. by Indy! on December 6, 2023 12:36 pm

    There are also... oh... about a million other problems with the NRA's fairy tale if we were to really look into every allleged "gun defense" these gun owners (with an obvious built-in agenda) claim stopped a "crime". The one time I looked into those alleged "crimes" there were a lot of sagas like "someone was in my back yard, I came to the door with my trusty firearm..." - bingo "crime" "prevented". Okay - I'm sure Mr. Paranoid was sure he just saved his family from being brutally murdered by some dude who might have been fetching his wayward frisbee from the guy's yard. True story... one time I was at my girlfriend's house and she saw someone in the parking lot crouching behind her car. She alerted me, I went to the door and shouted "HEY - GTFOH!!" and the dude promptly stood up like a scared rabbit and hightailed it out of the parking lot.


    "prevented"... gun necessary.

  8. by Donna on December 6, 2023 12:43 pm

    Okay not "6X", Indy, but a definite increase, which I figured would be the case. Thanks for the info.

    Despite statistics showing that owning a gun makes you less safe, anyone who buys a gun for self defense would probably say that they feel safer since buying a gun.

    Many people would say that they feel safer driving a car than traveling by plane, too, but statistics clearly show that traveling by plane is MUCH safer than traveling by automobile. There are a lot of things like that where what seems to be case actually isn't.

  9. by Curt_Anderson on December 6, 2023 12:49 pm
    I have a similar no gun, "HEY - GTFOH!!" anecdote. We heard somebody trying to scale our fence at night (they didn't realize they could simply open the unlocked gate). I yelled from upstairs and they quickly vamoosed. The next day we found a good quality flashlight in our yard which we used for years.

  10. by Indy! on December 6, 2023 12:50 pm

    Okay, I went back and read OD's post on Curt's recommendation. Just the usual paranoid rantings of a man obsessed with this penis gun imho - but there is one thing I'd like to straighten out even though it will ruin OD's day. I've handled and shot gunS before, OD. My brother owned one, I had friends who like to hunt in the Everglades and my dad and uncle were cops who carried 8 hours a day on the job. Dad was an expert marksman who would put you down before you even figured out how to unlock your holster. So far as real world experience, I was in a convenience store once when the guy in the line front of me started getting too mouthy and the owner pulled a gun from behind the counter to shut him up. If you don't believe me - look it up. I'm sure it's one of the "crimes" the NRA counted in your survey. 😂

  11. by Indy! on December 6, 2023 12:58 pm

    Donna - the 6X number is from another study I read years ago. The criteria might have been slightly different or something which resulted in the higher number (I don't remember), but the idea was the same... You're far more likely to shoot yourself, a family member or friend than you are to prevent a crime with a gun.

  12. by Indy! on December 6, 2023 1:00 pm

    I see the difference already - the other study must have been adding the numbers together - homicides and suicides. This one has them separated. There was also no differentiation between loaded and unloaded guns in the other one- it was just "owning a gun".

  13. by Indy! on December 6, 2023 1:13 pm

    I also have another "prevented crime" story, Curt. One time delivering pizzas we got an order from a sketchy apartment building the other drivers refused to deliver to. I went wherever the money was, so I took it. A stoner girl answered the door and invited me into the apartment where 3 crack heads were sitting around their pipe stoned immaculate. They just looked at me and laughed so I said "Who's paying for this?" One guy answered "Nobody - we're robbing you" and picked up the kitchen knife they were using to cut the crack. The dude was obviously wasted so I said "If you're robbing me, you better have more than that knife or you're about to get your shit kicked." With that he dropped the knide, pulled out a 20 and I was on my way... my gun still safely tucked in my underwear with his two boys.

    Another one OD can look up in his "crime" story archive. 🙄

  14. by Curt_Anderson on December 6, 2023 1:19 pm
    Here is another webpage that debunks point-by-point the study OD cited in the OP. For example, it reports this:

    Kleck’s survey also included gun uses against animals and did not distinguish civilian uses from military or police uses. Kleck’s Interviewers do not appear to have questioned a random individual at a given telephone number, but rather asked to speak to the male head of the household. Males from the South and West were oversampled.

    In OD's OP he posted "Many more criminals are killed or wounded each year by armed citizens than by the police."

    If the "criminal" was shot and killed, they are not around to give their side of the story. They certainly wouldn't have their day in court.

  15. by oldedude on December 6, 2023 2:06 pm
    If the "criminal" was shot and killed, they are not around to give their side of the story. They certainly wouldn't have their day in court.

    Donna. take notes. this is what I was talking about. The three guys that are beating and raping curt's wife should be able to prove they're criminals instead of curt legally trying to protect another human being's life. That's the same thing dim cities say. That's why I don't go to them. If I witnessed a rape or beating in Denver/Boulder, CA, Chicago, NYC, etc, I'm in not position other than to watch them die. Especially with the lack of funding or police per se in the dim cities. Those able to retire without their years are out of there, and no one will get a job with them.

    A total of 2,516 NYPD cops have left so far this year, the fourth highest number in the past decade and 43% more than the 1,750 who hightailed it in 2018, before the pandemic and crime spikes hit the city, NYPD pension data show.

    The number of cops quitting before they reach the 20 years required to receive their full pensions also skyrocketed from 509 in 2020 to 1,040 so far this year — an alarming 104% increase, the data show.

    The years of departures and lack of replacements are now taking a toll, forcing the cops who remain on the job to work “inhumane amounts of forced overtime,” Police Benevolent Association President Patrick Hendry said.

  16. by oldedude on December 6, 2023 2:07 pm
    Kleck’s survey also included gun uses against animals and did not distinguish civilian uses from military or police uses.

    Yes it did DOJ stated that in what I posted. Shoulda read it.

  17. by Indy! on December 6, 2023 3:21 pm

    Cops are leaving their jobs because the citizenry has begun to push back on the careless use of their weapons and the ludicrous "qualified immunity" they get no matter what the circumstances.

  18. by oldedude on December 6, 2023 4:16 pm
    You need to catch up on newes. You're using stupid "stuff" from the 1960's.

  19. by oldedude on December 6, 2023 4:18 pm
    Oh. Sorry. That's what your "sources" are STILL saying. One of the big things is they're tired of having their friends assassinated as they're driving. Or being hit with cement cups you're throwing.

  20. by Indy! on December 6, 2023 5:57 pm
    Tired of their friends being ASSassinated - LOL! Is that what they're selling you on Fox these days? You are comically out of touch. Cops don't even make the top 25 most dangerous jobs in America. Studies show this is the SAFEST TIME IN THE HISTORY OF THE USA to be a cop.

    Read it and weep, Odorous...

    1. Tree trimmers and pruners
    This groundskeeping job has the highest rate of work-caused deaths and ranks 76th for nonfatal workplace injuries. The profession's fatality rate is 21 times higher than for the typical American job. The most common causes were falls, falling tree limbs and accidents involving equipment such as saws.

    About 43,000 people work as commercial pilots, earning an average of $115,080 a year, according to federal statistics. This photo shows a small cargo plane that crashed into a Chicago home in 2014.

    2. Commercial pilots
    This does not include pilots of passenger planes for major airlines like you might use to travel for work or vacation. These folks navigate planes or helicopters to carry cargo and, in less common and less hazardous roles, lead air tours or navigate air ambulances. Nearly all deaths and injuries were caused by catastrophic crashes, which is why the nonfatal injury rate for the profession ranked low, at 297th.

    3. Farm and ranch animal workers (including aquaculture)
    People who tend to livestock big and small have the third-highest rate of deaths from their job, or 15 times higher than the typical American's work. Injury rates are not well tracked in federal labor statistics because people who are self-employed or work on farms with fewer than 11 employees are not required to complete the agency’s annual survey.

    About 49,000 people work in logging, earning an average of $46,000 a year, according to federal statistics.

    4. Logging workers
    The fourth-highest job fatality rate was reported for logging workers, who have led the national rankings in some years. The 2021 death rate was 13 times higher than the typical American job, and the nonfatal injury rate ranked 191st. Contact with equipment, falling objects and falls led the list of injury causes.

    About 130,000 people install roofs, earning an average of $49,000 a year, according to federal statistics.

    5. Roofers
    Roofers had the fifth-highest rate of work-caused deaths and ranks 108th for nonfatal workplace injuries. That fatality rate is almost 10 times higher than the typical American job, and the injury rate is almost twice as high. Once again, falls are a leading cause of injury and death – and a one that is often preventable with the proper use of safety harnesses.

    About 26,000 people supervise farms, commercial fishing operations or forestry work, earning an average of $54,000 a year, according to federal statistics.

    6. First-line supervisors of farming, fishing and forestry workers
    These jobs often feature overseeing people who work with heavy equipment, dangerous tools, hazardous weather and large, moving objects or animals – and being hands-on with the work. So it’s little surprise this occupation category reported the sixth-highest fatal-injury rate in America, or seven times higher than the typical job. The rate of nonfatal illness and injury ranked 216th.

    About 26,000 people run heavy equipment in agricultural industries, earning an average of $36,000 a year, according to federal statistics.

    7. Agricultural equipment operators
    If you’re at the controls of big equipment in an agricultural setting – tilling, planting, harvesting, feeding, herding – this is the job classification you get from the federal government. It has the seventh-highest fatal-injury rate in America, one that’s more than five times higher than the typical job. Injury rates are not well tracked in federal labor statistics because people who are self-employed or work on farms with fewer than 11 employees are not required to complete the agency’s annual survey.

    About 2 million people drive tractor trailers and other large haulers, earning an average of $50,000 a year, according to federal statistics.

    8. Heavy and tractor-trailer truck drivers
    This is the technical classification for what people commonly imagine when they hear “truck driver.” These are folks driving big rigs – more than 26,000 pounds – to haul cargo from place to place. This job reported the eighth-highest fatal-injury rate in 2021 and ranked 65th for nonfatal injuries. Wrecks were the leading cause of death, but falls and overexertion were much more common injury causes.

    About 24,000 people work with heavy equipment in underground mines, earning an average of $58,000 a year, according to federal statistics.

    9. Underground mining machine operators
    This is the first time in recent years this job category has been included in federal rankings of fatal injuries because fewer than 20,000 people worked in these roles or fewer than four people died. But in 2021, 10 people died from the job, resulting in the ninth-highest rate of worker deaths. The nonfatal injury rate ranked 114th in 2018, the last year with available federal data.

    About 35,000 maintain and repair farm equipment, earning an average of $47,000 a year, according to federal statistics.

    10. Farm equipment mechanics and service technicians
    This title is assigned to people who repair or maintain farm machinery and vehicles, such as tractors, combines, irrigation systems and dairy equipment, but does not include mechanics who work generally on trucks or diesel engines. It has the 10th-highest fatal-injury rate in America, or about four times higher than the typical job. The nonfatal injury rate ranked 115th.

    Cops' friends being ASSassinated... what a riot. 😂

    The other 15 are at the link below...

  21. by oldedude on December 6, 2023 9:58 pm
    And you missed several that your sheeple sites don't list. I was just giving you why NYPD officers were leaving. So fuk you very much. You've never spent any of your shallow, miserable life with any threat at all. You've been protected by your "owner" to keep you 6 year old butt clean from client to client, along with your mama (without teeth).

  22. by Indy! on December 7, 2023 8:09 am

    So easy to tell when OD just got his ass handed to him - he drops the argument and starts attacking your family. Facts are facts, OD - the NY cops who quit are a bunch of pussy snowflakes who had their ass broomsticks and license to kill taken away. That's why they're quitting - they're not allowed to freely assault and murder the NY citizenry anymnore. IOW - the People are demanding they either do the job they're supposed to do - or go get a job they're actually qualified to do - like policing up cigarette butts. The good news - maybe you can pick up a little pocket change teaching them how to do that since you're the expert. 😘

    PS: Did you get that? Cops... "policing" up cigarette butts...

    Clever. 🙂

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