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Weaponry selectors, pages, etc.
There is major flaw with the idea of gun-toting teachers confronting school shooters.
By Curt_Anderson
December 4, 2023 1:18 pm
Category: Weaponry

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A frantic 9-1-1 call alerts police to a school shooting. In response the police rush into the school planning to neutralize the shooter. How do the police distinguish between the actual shooter and a well-meaning teacher with a gun?

Man Killed by Police at Alabama Mall Was a ‘Good Guy With a Gun,’ Family’s Lawyer Says
(New York Times)On Thanksgiving night, the sounds of gunshots inside an Alabama mall sent shoppers diving for cover and sprinting for exits. Outside the mall, Emantic Fitzgerald Bradford Jr. pulled out a gun and rushed to protect shoppers, his family said.

But Mr. Bradford was soon dead. An off-duty police officer working security at the mall, Riverchase Galleria in Hoover, Ala., fatally shot him, the authorities said. In the days that followed, the official account by the Hoover Police Department of what happened inside and outside the mall has shifted drastically.

At first, the officer was praised for stopping a gunman after two people were shot outside a Footaction store on the second floor. Then the police said that Mr. Bradford was not in fact the gunman and that the true gunman remained on the loose.


Police officer justified in fatal mall shooting of 'EJ' Bradford: Alabama AG
An Alabama prosecutor ruled an officer was justified in shopping mall killing.

Cited and related links:

  1. abcnews.go.com
  2. nytimes.com

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Comments on "There is major flaw with the idea of gun-toting teachers confronting school shooters.":

  1. by oldedude on December 4, 2023 2:19 pm
    A frantic 9-1-1 call alerts police to a school shooting. In response the police rush into the school planning to neutralize the shooter. How do the police distinguish between the actual shooter and a well-meaning teacher with a gun?
    First, teachers aren't novices nor are they unprepared to do this job. Rehearsals, classroom training, working with SWAT are all things that have to be done. Right now, the issue is mainly about protecting the kids while the halls are being cleared. Your question "assumes" untrained police and untrained staff.

    Shooters can do the most damage in the first 5 minutes because no one is there to stop them. In the Nashville murders, it took 16 minutes to kill the dirtbag, who got off 150 rounds.

    In the case of Parkland, the police (and specific officers in command) have been found neglectful in their duties because the time it took to not only respond, but to enter the building. It took 13 minutes for the first officers to enter the building. That was four minutes AFTER Cruz left the building.

    Cruz departed the building in nine minutes. In that time, 17 people died. Cruz was arrested in a different town 1:20 minutes after he left the school.


  2. by Curt_Anderson on December 4, 2023 2:54 pm
    “First, teachers aren't novices nor are they unprepared to do this job…” —OD

    I am not so sure about that. A teacher personality is different than what it takes to be a cop. Many of my son’s fellow police applicants were mustered out because they overreacted or improperly responded in stressful situations.

    There is also the issue of gun storage. Would the teachers be issued holsters to carry their guns at all times? Would each teacher have a gun safe in their classroom?


  3. by oldedude on December 4, 2023 3:22 pm
    I am not so sure about that. A teacher personality is different than what it takes to be a cop. Many of my son’s fellow police applicants were mustered out because they overreacted or improperly responded in stressful situations.

    There is also the issue of gun storage. Would the teachers be issued holsters to carry their guns at all times? Would each teacher have a gun safe in their classroom?

    This reminds me of when you and donna laughed at the "thought" of helping out veterans get teaching jobs. They're not cops. Period.

    The over-reaction thing is an issue, I adamantly agree. all departments have shoot no shoot training in their POST training. The teachers are required "X" number of hours, pass tests, and be accepted to do this. ROE issues are the big thing. How to handle yourself, watch your background, know what your background is. That sort of thing.


    There are soon to be 17 states and a few hundred districts that allow teachers to be armed. I've seen one issue in the past couple of years, and that was a newness issue with carrying. Still, I would have decertified the guy.

    Teachers conceal carry. They conceal at home, carry throughout the day, take it off at home. Why would you "issue" a holster? That's counter productive. Why would you have a gun safe in each room? Also counter productive. If you can't get to it, don't think you can use it.

    Even with the issues you stated, we still have about 2 million times a year when it does do good. And these are not trained nearly as well as the staff will be. These are just folks trying to prevent a rape, murder, beatdown by a half dozen new yorkers or chicago "kids" just hanging around.

    You're thinking if you carry a gun, you're a homicidal maniac just itching to murder someone. Quite the opposite is true. It's also where your trifecta has pretty much brainwashed you to believing the inanimate object is the problem.

    View Video


  4. by Curt_Anderson on December 4, 2023 4:15 pm
    I notice you tend to "refute" things I never said. This is known as a "strawman argument".

    I never "laughed at the thought of helping out veterans get teaching jobs". You can re-read what I said on the subject in the first link below. According the ABC affiliate in Tampa, "Florida's new military veteran teacher program isn’t doing much to fill teacher vacancies". Personally, I believe that ANY professional with applicable experience and training could be a good teacher. Why not have a CPA teach accounting or a math class? A professional musician could teach music class. A newspaper editor could teach writing or English.

    I also don't think all gun owners are homicidal maniacs. Nor do I blame guns per se for America's homicide rate.

    I am still unconvinced that arming teachers is a good idea.

    "The RAND Evaluation of the New York City Police Department Firearm Training and Firearm-Discharge Review Process found only 18 percent of shots fired by trained police officers in gunfights hit their criminal targets. This suggests four or five of every six shots fired by comparably trained teachers would hit something or someone other than the targeted shooter."

    Incidentally, you were wrong when in that thread you wrote, "It's a thing called "Troops to Teachers." You have to have a BA/BS, but it doesn't have to be in teaching." Actually according the Florida Department of Education: "The Florida Department of Education is offering an opportunity for our talented veterans to obtain a 5-year temporary teaching certificate for qualified candidates who have not yet earned their bachelor’s degree."


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  5. by Indy! on December 4, 2023 4:49 pm

    Arming teachers is the dumbest of the dumb ideas the NRA invented to placate gun nuts.


  6. by oldedude on December 4, 2023 8:04 pm
    Or maybe it's just to piss off stupid morons like you. And since you're a sociopath and can't have kids (well that doesn't include the goats you tried with). You really don't care about another sociopath murdering children for fun.


  7. by oldedude on December 4, 2023 8:13 pm
    curt-
    I never "laughed at the thought of helping out veterans get teaching jobs". You can re-read what I said on the subject in the first link below. According the ABC affiliate in Tampa, "Florida's new military veteran teacher program isn’t doing much to fill teacher vacancies". Personally, I believe that ANY professional with applicable experience and training could be a good teacher. Why not have a CPA teach accounting or a math class? A professional musician could teach music class. A newspaper editor could teach writing or English.

    You did and now you're backtracking on it. No biggie, i'm pretty used to it by now.
    Why aren't veterans getting into teaching? Because they're not fucking woke. Their core values also don't allow them to teach anything related to race theory. As much as donna has core issues with guns and killing, veterans have issues with teaching that you chose anyone for any job based on race. That's just F*ing stupid.

    Why not have a CPA teach accounting or a math class? Because the make a shitload more money as a CPA AND it's hard for them to actually make any contact with another human being. That's a skill. "experts" have issues dumbing down to the level they're teaching at. And there are differences in learning styles of different ages. You have to know that relating to a 2 year old is different than even a 5 year old, and different than a 13 y/o, different than an 18 y/o, and different than an adult. That's the first lesson YOU should understand.


  8. by oldedude on December 4, 2023 8:43 pm
    Sorry.

    "The RAND Evaluation of the New York City Police Department Firearm Training and Firearm-Discharge Review Process found only 18 percent of shots fired by trained police officers in gunfights hit their criminal targets. This suggests four or five of every six shots fired by comparably trained teachers would hit something or someone other than the targeted shooter."

    I agree with that. AND in WWII, it was much worse. Vietnam it was even worse. In the wars on terrorism I gained quite a substantial hit rate. You need to read "On War." It gives a full account of what you said, and a heck of alot more regarding the psychology of that.

    Also, didn't you read me talking about backdrop??????? I already talked about what you said, but maybe you didn't understand it. Too many big words? No reading capacity?

    Incidentally, you were wrong when in that thread you wrote, "It's a thing called "Troops to Teachers." You have to have a BA/BS, but it doesn't have to be in teaching." Actually according the Florida Department of Education: "The Florida Department of Education is offering an opportunity for our talented veterans to obtain a 5-year temporary teaching certificate for qualified candidates who have not yet earned their bachelor’s degree."

    That's an extension of the VA program (which has pretty well failed). The two are built differently, but are the same thing in mind. I also didn't mention the FL program, but it's interesting that you refused to say you mocked it, but brought up the program you mocked. So thanks for that.


    I also don't think all gun owners are homicidal maniacs. Nor do I blame guns per se for America's homicide rate.
    And you believe that guns should be locked up beyond reach of the owners so it takes 15-20 minutes to actually get the guns. And the "per se" is a roundabout way of saying it may not be the "gun" but it's everything but the gun because if I say it's the gun I'm going to get called on it."

    I am still unconvinced that arming teachers is a good idea.

    That is the only thing you've said so far that is true. I appreciate the candor. I believe there are people that could do a good job at this. It's not for everyone, like I told donna twice. So with 17 states that have armed staff in the schools, how much do we hear about issues in the schools? What we know about mass shootings are they are usually in "no gun" zones. It makes it easier for the gun there to get out and kill people easier.

    Unfortunately, most of the veterans I know in other states are homeschooling because they don't trust what the government (read: Teachers Union, the overseer of education in this country) wants to teach them.


  9. by Indy! on December 4, 2023 9:26 pm
    Or maybe it's just to piss off stupid morons like you. And since you're a sociopath and can't have kids (well that doesn't include the goats you tried with). You really don't care about another sociopath murdering children for fun.


    Another classy post from our local sewer dweller.


  10. by oldedude on December 5, 2023 2:48 am
    Did I get too close to the truth? "The lady doth protest too much, methinks"


  11. by Donna on December 5, 2023 5:47 am

    "As much as donna has core issues with guns and killing, veterans have issues with teaching that you chose anyone for any job based on race. That's just F*ing stupid." - od

    Did veterans have the issues when people of color, especially Black people were openly discriminated against in hiring in favor of White people? That went on for hundreds of years, but we didn't hear a peep from Whites complaining about that kind of affirmative action when it was happening.

    I'm opposed to affirmative action. But I find that double-standard interesting.



  12. by oldedude on December 5, 2023 6:09 am
    First, I respect your decision about guns. Conversely, it's a core issue in the military (not always of course, but since Vietnam) to consider all persons by the content of their character. NOT the color of their skin. That's a core issue for military folks. And to say that a person with zero character or integrity should be hired above someone with integrity because of their skin is stupid. Both ways. "I would rather suffer in good company..."


  13. by Donna on December 5, 2023 6:22 am

    Well good on those veterans, but that sentiment was virtually absent among Whites throughout most of American history, which is the point I'm making.


  14. by HatetheSwamp on December 5, 2023 6:38 am

    ...that sentiment was virtually absent among Whites throughout most of American history,...

    Donna!

    Are you ignernt, or are you, merely, an EFFINliar!!!!!?

    I'd love for you even to pretend to try to support that statement with historical data. Please. Please. Please. Please. Please!!!!!

    *****

    (Did you notice that pb used three infinitive verbs consecutively.)


  15. by Indy! on December 5, 2023 8:50 am

    by oldedude on December 5, 2023 2:48 am
    Did I get too close to the truth? "The lady doth protest too much, methinks"



    That would be something for you to celebrate, OD... just "getting close" to the truth for the first time in your life, but... nope. I couldn't care less if you want to push your stupid gun ideas off on the scared little reds like you who can't make it thru a single day without playing with their penis gun. Please - by all means - masturbate to your hearts content with that weapon. Just try not to kill a friend or family member because that is 6X more likely to happen than for you to ever use it to "defend" yourself.


  16. by oldedude on December 5, 2023 1:59 pm
    So again, you're making up stats that don't mean a thing.

    What a maroon!
    *thanks bugs.


  17. by oldedude on December 5, 2023 4:30 pm
    donna- Well good on those veterans, but that sentiment was virtually absent among Whites throughout most of American history, which is the point I'm making.

    I was understanding what point you were making. And I caught some snark in the answer. I'm asking they get at least some respect to join in with MLKjr and see people for their character and integrity, not what color, gender, gender preference, etcetcetc they are. Like in your case, I've actually tried to talk to you about being a trans. I think that's gone well. I wouldn't do that just to blow smoke somewhere. The more we understand people, the better off we all are. CRT radically divides people into separate islands and forgets about commonalities. That means more hatred. We have enough evil. We don't need more.


  18. by Indy! on December 5, 2023 7:14 pm

    OD... point of order? I don't remember you posting any stats supporting your end of this bargain either. You just claimed "2 million" (or whatever it was) crimes are stopped every year by cowboys like yourself. I can pull a number out of my butt too - like "every year 8 kabillion 'good guys with guns' are accidentally killed by cops who didn't realize they were 'good guys with guns' (an oxymoron btw) trying to stop a crime."


  19. by oldedude on December 6, 2023 2:11 pm
    "As much as donna has core issues with guns and killing, veterans have issues with teaching that you chose anyone for any job based on race. That's just F*ing stupid." - od

    Did veterans have the issues when people of color, especially Black people were openly discriminated against in hiring in favor of White people? That went on for hundreds of years, but we didn't hear a peep from Whites complaining about that kind of affirmative action when it was happening.

    I'm opposed to affirmative action. But I find that double-standard interesting.


    I already covered that had you actually read. So your response is stoopid because of that,


  20. by oldedude on December 6, 2023 2:13 pm
    Indy. That was in the other thread. And it wasn't "my" stats, it was DOJs. Argue with them. They're the one's that keep the stats in NLETS.


  21. by Indy! on December 6, 2023 3:22 pm

    Except it wasn't the DOJ's - it was the NRA and Fox and you didin't post those stats either.

    But I'll cut you a break due to your military "education". 🙄


  22. by oldedude on December 6, 2023 4:14 pm
    Since you have ZERO CHANCE of being a literate in this world, I'll explain it to you in very simple terms.

    DOJ put the report out (youstupidfuck) If you didn't see that, you're stupider than what I thought you were.

    IF a government agency puts a report out, they use multiple sources (we fucking hope, except in your case because it confuses you). When looking at the report, who's letterhead is on the report?🤔 Oh. Yeah. DOJ😱. That means that DOJ has accepted the findings of the report and are publishing the results.


    Next time, buy a clue.

    Oh. You're mom's getting too old. The teams complained. You need to send your sister. I hope she lost her teeth also. They're always the hit.


  23. by Indy! on December 6, 2023 5:59 pm

    The DOJ did not claim 2 million "crimes" are stopped every year by handguns.


  24. by oldedude on December 6, 2023 9:24 pm
    Okay. If you can't see it. then prove the stats.


  25. by Indy! on December 7, 2023 8:15 am

    Already did, OD. Your brain is failing you again.


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