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Law selectors, pages, etc.
ACLU says Trump gag order in DC election interference case violates First Amendment
By Curt_Anderson
October 26, 2023 10:05 am
Category: Law

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The American Civil Liberties Union argued that the gag order on former President Donald Trump in his federal election interference case violates the U.S. Constitution.

The ACLU, a frequent and vocal critic of Trump, said the restrictions placed on his speech run afoul of the First Amendment.

The order bars Trump from making public statements about special counsel Jack Smith, the defense counsel, members of the court or any of their staffers.


Cited and related links:

  1. cnbc.com

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Comments on "ACLU says Trump gag order in DC election interference case violates First Amendment":

  1. by HatetheSwamp on October 26, 2023 11:05 am

    pb has opined that a weakness of the Biden DOJ's and Dem prosecutors' strategy to campaign against Trump through criminal and civil charges is that even Trump has access to the First and other Amendments. Kudos to the American Civil Liberties Union for it's loyalty to it's mission of defending our citizens' Civil Liberties, even of someone as despicable as Donald Trump.

    That pesky Bill of Rights, eh!!!!!?

    But, pb. But, pb, rights ain't absolute, right, Curt?


  2. by Ponderer on October 26, 2023 12:46 pm

    From what I'm reading in the text of the brief, it's not that there is this gag order on Trump, but that it was not written clearly enough solely on the use of the word target. They believe that it is unconstitutionally vague. From the brief:

    "In its order, the Court barred Defendant from “making any public statements, or directing others to make any public statements, that target (1) the Special Counsel prosecuting this case or his staff; (2) defense counsel or their staff; (3) any of this court’s staff or other supporting personnel; or (4) any reasonably foreseeable witness or the substance of their testimony.” Order at 3(ECF 105). The entire order hinges on the meaning of the word “target.” But that meaning is ambiguous, and fails to provide the fair warning that the Constitution demands, especially when, as here,it concerns a prior restraint on speech.2

    [...]

    "Defendant cannot know which of these meanings applies,and as a result the order risks restricting too much speech.

    Should the Court continue to believe that a gag order is necessary in this case,the Court should rephrase its order or clarify its meaning."



    I do have to say that I find the idea that Donald Trump could ever not understand every last definition and connotation of the word target a tad naive. But legal documents need to be done legally.

    In any event, the ACLU doesn't appear to have anything against such a gag order in general, so long as it is written less vaguely.


    aclu.org


  3. by HatetheSwamp on October 26, 2023 12:53 pm

    I do have to say that I find the idea that Donald Trump could ever not understand every last definition and connotation of the word target a tad naive. But legal documents need to be done legally.

    po,

    My sense is that Trump understands it, he merely claims that the Bill of Rights applies even to him. Do you think it doesn’t?


  4. by Curt_Anderson on October 26, 2023 3:37 pm
    The First Amendment should consider Trump’s megaphone and potentially violent cult following. You or me grousing about a judge or witnesses to acquaintances is not like Trump complaining on social media.


  5. by oldedude on October 26, 2023 3:39 pm
    Of all the groups in the world, the ACLU comes to trumpsters aid. It's almost as odd as Hamas coming to the IDL and telling the world they were correct. Something must really smell bad in Denmark.


  6. by Curt_Anderson on October 26, 2023 3:53 pm
    OD,
    The ACLU defended Nazis in Skokey Illinois. They are constitutional absolutists, especially on the First.


  7. by Ponderer on October 26, 2023 4:26 pm

    And again, their only problem with the gag order was the vagueness. Not what the gag order sought to accomplish. They are in no way saying that the court doesn't have the ability or right to impose a gag order on him.


  8. by Curt_Anderson on October 26, 2023 4:54 pm
    Ponderer,
    That’s correct about vagueness. Gag orders are issued all the time. There is no first amendment right to intimidate witnesses, for example. There will be a gag order, but perhaps a bit more explicit.


  9. by Ponderer on October 26, 2023 5:23 pm

    If they bother changing anything at all, Curt.

    I'll bet that the judge is quite aware that there is no question about Defendant Trump fully and explicitly understanding the meaning of her use of the word "target" in the context in which she used it.



  10. by oldedude on October 26, 2023 7:57 pm
    The ACLU defended Nazis in Skokey Illinois. They are constitutional absolutists, especially on the First.

    That was 1977. They've changed a whole bunch since then. jjpo won't accept anything outside the past 40 years (ergo all the dims sics dogs on the black folk is out, hanging blacks by dims is out, etc. you catch the drift. Rules are rules. PLEASE PLAY BY THEM. And yes, you're on the same side a jjpo. Therefore, you have to adopt the same bullshit.

    FYSA- Skokie is now safer than 20% of U.S. neighborhoods.(an extremely low standard)
    Chances of Becoming a Victim of a Violent Crime is 1:540... In IL? 1 IN 253 (including the South Side of Chicago, where bad, bad Leroy Brown lives).
    Curt. Face it. it's a shithole now. A cesspool of violent crime. That was the counterculture at the time. Now you can hang the little germans and no one cares. But you can still want the jews to be murdered and that's okay. As long as they're whities.

    CPD officer among 3 pepper sprayed during pro-Israel event, pro-Palestinian rally in Skokie: police The organizer of the pro-Palestinian rally says he saw someone fire a gun, but Skokie police have not confirmed that. But, police said three people, including a Chicago police officer, were pepper sprayed during the rally.

    Police were seen responding to a disturbance during a demonstration by about 200 Palestinian supporters.

    Officers were seen tackling someone to the ground, and then, leading at least two men away in custody.

    SEE ALSO | Supporters of Palestinians, Israelis call for ceasefire at downtown protest, North Side prayer

    It happened while a show of solidarity with Israel was underway indoors at Ateras Ayala in Skokie.

    Yinam Cohen, the Consul General of Israel to the Midwest, spoke to hundreds of people, who came together to support those in Israel and condemn the deadly Hamas attacks that happened more than two weeks ago.

    "Over 30 Israeli communities have been destroyed, making it the deadliest killing of Jews since the Holocaust," Cohen said.
    The organizer of the pro-Palestinian rally says he saw someone fire a gun, but Skokie police have not confirmed that. But, police said three people, including a Chicago police officer, were pepper sprayed during the rally.

    Police were seen responding to a disturbance during a demonstration by about 200 Palestinian supporters.

    Officers were seen tackling someone to the ground, and then, leading at least two men away in custody.

    SEE ALSO | Supporters of Palestinians, Israelis call for ceasefire at downtown protest, North Side prayer

    It happened while a show of solidarity with Israel was underway indoors at Ateras Ayala in Skokie.

    Yinam Cohen, the Consul General of Israel to the Midwest, spoke to hundreds of people, who came together to support those in Israel and condemn the deadly Hamas attacks that happened more than two weeks ago.

    "Over 30 Israeli communities have been destroyed, making it the deadliest killing of Jews since the Holocaust," Cohen said.
    The organizer of the pro-Palestinian rally says he saw someone fire a gun, but Skokie police have not confirmed that. But, police said three people, including a Chicago police officer, were pepper sprayed during the rally.

    Police were seen responding to a disturbance during a demonstration by about 200 Palestinian supporters.

    Officers were seen tackling someone to the ground, and then, leading at least two men away in custody.


    It happened while a show of solidarity with Israel was underway indoors at Ateras Ayala in Skokie.

    Yinam Cohen, the Consul General of Israel to the Midwest, spoke to hundreds of people, who came together to support those in Israel and condemn the deadly Hamas attacks that happened more than two weeks ago.

    "Over 30 Israeli communities have been destroyed, making it the deadliest killing of Jews since the Holocaust," Cohen said.


    msn.com
    View Video


  11. by HatetheSwamp on October 27, 2023 3:55 am

    The First Amendment should consider Trump’s megaphone and potentially violent cult following. You or me grousing about a judge or witnesses to acquaintances is not like Trump complaining on social media.

    But, that's the point, Curt, the Free Speech clause protects edgy speech.

    Being the age that we are, it stuns me, knowing how wild progressivism was 60-70 years ago, that people like you have become people like you.

    The GOP is the home of openness and inclusion, acceptance, diversity, tolerance and FREETHINKING. You, Curt, would never fit in.


  12. by Curt_Anderson on October 27, 2023 4:45 am
    HtS,
    Trump’s speech is not merely “edgy”. Advocacy of force or criminal activity does not receive First Amendment protections if the advocacy is directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action, and is likely to incite or produce such action.


  13. by HatetheSwamp on October 27, 2023 4:55 am

    Perhaps, Curt, it'd be a useful exercise for both of us to reread The Federalist Papers.

    My sense is that you have too tepid a vision of the freedom envisioned when this government was created.


  14. by Ponderer on October 27, 2023 7:14 am

    I love how the MAGA Hats here insist that Trump is getting excessively harsh treatment that no one else would ever get... When the exact polar opposite is the actual truth.

    He's being treated with kid gloves that no other criminal defendant ever gets. Any other criminal defendant who made the same kind of threats and comments to their followers, who he knows full well will go on to make death threats to the court workers and prospective witnesses he mentions, would be thrown in jail. Period. No judge would ever stand for such blatant and threatening contempt of court. Not for a second.

    But they are sure as heck doing it for Trump! He's getting the Platinum treatment from our legal system, yet all the MAGA Hats are still bitching their whiny little bitch heads off that he's being held accountable for his felonious actions in any way at all.


  15. by Donna on October 27, 2023 8:03 am

    The courts are putting up with Trump's sociopathic behavior very much like how Adidas put up with Kanye West's sociopathic behavior for years.




  16. by oldedude on October 27, 2023 8:27 am
    I love how the MAGA Hats here insist that Trump is getting excessively harsh treatment that no one else would ever get... When the exact polar opposite is the actual truth.

    And the flip side (you, et al) you fully support a father to shower with his 14 year old daughter, intentionally boob graze someone that did not give you their approval, sniffs little girls hair, etc.


  17. by HatetheSwamp on October 27, 2023 9:11 am

    po: I love how the MAGA Hats here insist that Trump is getting excessively harsh treatment that no one else would ever get...

    No one on SS posts that.


  18. by Indy! on October 27, 2023 9:32 am

    This is what happens when you don't put people in jail for breaking the law.


  19. by Ponderer on October 27, 2023 12:14 pm

    Oh goodness Bill, of course not in those exact words. It was more a paraphrased simplification of what two you imply by the way you speak and rush to his defense all the time. You aren't the only one here who can read others' implications you know. You wear your implications on your sleeve with everything you say regarding Trump. I doubt that it's something that most people couldn't see as plain as the nose on your face.

    Like how I know, by your not so subtle implications, that you don't giveafuck about the two thousand Palestinian children dead in Gaza so far from Israeli military attacks. You don't giveafuck about the tiny handful of overflowing hospitals still operating even without supplies, power or fuel that are having to deal with the hundreds of dead and dying Gazans that are brought in every day. You don't giveafuck about entire square block upon entire square block of apartments blown to smithereens by Israeli bombs, missiles, and drones. Were there people in those apartments...? What thefuck do you care???

    HAMAS is evil as livingfuck. I have already showered my hatred and total condemnation upon them in several posts in here. As I have also offered my deepest sympathies and sorrow for every single Israeli casualty in this war.

    I have the ability to recognize the humanity of every single human being in that region and will speak in defense of every one.

    But Bill, you have shown quite clearly that you lack such an ability. You have gone beyond mere implication. You even denied the very existence of Palestinian victims. JesusFuckingChrist, who the hell's podcast were you listening to that day for fucksake???


  20. by oldedude on October 27, 2023 12:52 pm
    Oh goodness Bill, of course not in those exact words.

    So he's correct. Now, we're playing your game.


  21. by HatetheSwamp on October 27, 2023 12:53 pm

    Oh goodness Bill, of course not in those exact words. It was more a paraphrased simplification of what two you imply by the way you speak and rush to his defense all the time.

    po, you, quite innocently, have revealed that you suffer from delusions of omniscience many times. I honestly think that Trump is despicable. I never defend him.

    Like how I know, by your not so subtle implications, that you don't giveafuck about the two thousand Palestinian children dead in Gaza so far from Israeli military attacks.

    EFFINwrong. Your stark embrace of the preferences and prejudices that you bring with you to every moment of your life is hyper rare. Even Donna doesn't engage in the to the extent you do.

    I can believe that OD abhors all of the evil on both sides because that is my starting point. Read my posts here from October 7 on. I've been consistent, and it's all true.

    HAMAS is evil as livingfuck. I have already showered my hatred and total condemnation upon them in several posts in here.

    Sadly, you got to that party too late even to claim you attended it.

    Here's the difference between OD and pb, and Curt, and Donna and you. We resist the preferences and prejudices that we bring with us to every moment of our lives. You seek "news" from sources that fuel the fire of your preferences. You did that on October 7. We avoid them. And, balance them out.

    Read the posts on October 7 and 8 here. While the rest of us were struggling with the reality of what was happening, you two were already taking sides in the most vicious way. You, much more than Donna.

    What people say and do in unguarded moments reveal the truth about them. What you said and did in the first moments... choosing, not understand the happenings, but to condemn. That's you.

    It ain't OD. It ain't Curt. It ain't pb. And, that's all here in black and white on SS.


  22. by Ponderer on October 27, 2023 1:39 pm

    You're simply a fucking moron, Bill.


  23. by HatetheSwamp on October 27, 2023 1:50 pm

    What OD and pb posted on SS is preserved on the threads...as is what you posted.

    You may not want your truth to be your truth, but no one forced you to type those words.

    Your words are the words of someone who's rigorously Anti-Israel...and, it seems to me, probably antisemitic.


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