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Parenting selectors, pages, etc.
A really good article regarding what we've been "discussing" about children in schools.
By oldedude
September 11, 2023 8:45 pm
Category: Parenting

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This is actually a good argument (both sides) regarding parental Rights in schools. Everyone will hate this if they don't read it. Everyone will disagree with parts of this if they do. Ergo, they hit on everything. And if you are actually interested in what the debate is all about, here it is.

p.s. The picture is about the thoughts both sides have about this subject.
od

State Superintendent Kicked out of California School Board Meeting For Not Agreeing With Proposed Policy

A school board in California decided to take a controversial stand—they would fight for parental rights over that of student privacy. They promoted a policy where schools would have to tell parents if their child showed signs of being

A state official attended the school board meeting to protest the policy, which he perceived as harmful to children but was promptly thrown out.

While transgender rights have gained traction in recent years, this incident raises an important question: at what point do these rights cross the line and infringe upon the rights of others?

Invited to Speak on Behalf of Students
The California State Superintendent, Tony Thurmond, claimed he was invited to the meeting to speak on behalf of LGBTQ students.

The meeting involved the school board of the Chino Valley Unified School District and their new policy, which would force schools to “out” students to their parents.

Things like wanting to be called by a different name or addressed with different pronouns would get reported back to parents.

Thurmond spoke out against this policy, urging the board to reconsider. He stated that half of LGBTQ youth commit suicide and that policies like this could cause far more harm than good.

The leader of the meeting and school board president, Sonja Shaw, shut down Thurmond’s assessment. She shouted that his agenda would “p*rvert children” and told him, “We will not be bullied in Chino”.

The situation continued to escalate. Shaw told the Superintendent multiple times to sit down, reminding the official that it was “not [his] meeting”. Parents in the crowd cheered Shaw on. When the Superintendent continued to push for time, Shaw had security escort him out of the building.

Where Should We Draw The Line?
This debate over privacy raises an important question about the rights of transgender individuals versus the rights of others. While no parent wants harm to befall their kids, should schools be allowed to decide what constitutes harm? At what point do young people get to decide for themselves who they want to be?

Is Thurmond’s point about safety considered valid? In some instances, it may be more dangerous to tell a child’s family—especially if that family is conservative—about the child’s gender identity. However, the reverse is also true. Parents have the right to know about their child’s mental health and what goes on at school.

It’s moments like these that emphasize the importance of political decisions. Politics affects people’s day-to-day lives. These policies may be the difference between whether or not marginalized students can feel safe and accepted in their educational environment.

Parents Shared Their Opinions on The Matter
Parents online weighed in on the debate. Many sided with the Chino Valley school board. “The ‘privacy’ of my minor children ends at my name on their birth certificate – period. As the parent, I get to decide what their privacy will be, not the state,” one parent wrote.

“What the Superintendent Thurmond forgets is that parent(s) are still legal custodians of their children until they are 18 years old, legally get married before their 18th birthday, or apply for emancipation status from their parent(s).” Another parent chimed in. “When they turn 18, then they will have more individual rights, responsibilities, and independence. It’s hard to believe that Superintendent Thurman fails to grasp these facts when he is the one in charge of California’s Public Schools. However, since he appears to be pushing that Woke agenda, those facts wouldn’t matter to him.”

The School Stood Its Ground
The Chino Valley Unified School District policy did pass, though it was challenged and resulted in a lawsuit against the district. Despite the lawsuit, Shaw said, “We will stand our ground and protect our children with all we can because we are not breaking the law. Parents have a constitutional right in the upbringing of their children. Period.”


Cited and related links:

  1. msn.com

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Comments on "A really good article regarding what we've been "discussing" about children in schools.":

  1. by Curt_Anderson on September 11, 2023 10:03 pm
    "A school board in California decided to take a controversial stand—they would fight for parental rights over that of student privacy. They promoted a policy where schools would have to tell parents if their child showed signs of being transgender."

    I said it before but I cannot imagine that a teacher (or other school employee) would see signs of my kid being transgender before my wife or I would.

    Are teachers experts in identifying "signs of being transgender"? I would greatly resent my kid being labeled as being "transgenderish" based on some teacher's opinion. As a kid in school, I would have really hated it if some uninformed busybody teacher (or the janitor or the lunch lady) called my parents to say I had transgender tendencies.

    Thanks to the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th Amendment children have constitutional rights protecting them from government (which includes public schools) intrusion. The First includes the right of expression. The Fourth is the right to privacy.


  2. by Donna on September 12, 2023 7:15 am

    Good points, Curt.

    If a minor outs themselves as TG at school, it means that they were afraid of coming out to their parents or family.

    I don't see any good that can come from requiring school administrators or faculty to out a student to their parents.

    Unless a minor is doing something illegal or against school regulations, I can't see any reason to notify the parents.




  3. by Ponderer on September 12, 2023 7:33 am

    "I don't see any good that can come from requiring school administrators or faculty to out a student to their parents." -Donna

    I don't think they are trying to do this out of a sense of "parents rights". I think that is just populist obfuscation.

    I think that the true purpose of unconstitutional crap like this is to scare transgender kids from coming out at all in school. These dogmatic bigots don't want there to even be a suggestion anywhere in schools that transgenderism even exists. They want it eradicated from schools. And if they succeed in this, they will move on to other places in our society that they want to eradicate it from.


  4. by Donna on September 12, 2023 7:55 am

    I think you hit the nail on the head, hon. I posted a similar observation here a while back. They don't like their kids adopting liberal social values, which is what they mean by "woke".

    So they're trying to control what they see as liberal indoctrination through imposing laws on schools. At some point they'll come to the realization that none of those efforts were successful in preventing their kids from adopting liberal social values, because actually they're picking it up from social media, not teachers or administrators, which will prompt them to launch a full frontal assault on social media, which won't work either.



  5. by oldedude on September 12, 2023 9:28 am
    They don't like their kids adopting liberal social values, which is what they mean by "woke".

    I think that's a straw man argument.

    It has to do with perps able to perp on your child and the district condoning the act. Weren't you taught as a kid, that if an adult (even a police officer or doctor) were to tell you "this would be our little secret" to tell someone you trusted?

    And every time I've posted on this subject, I've said it's not about being anything but safe for the kids, and SCOTUS has consistently supported the rights of parents to know what's going on in the schools.

    My view of the trans principal I thought was over-reaction on the parents part. There was nothing but some "feelings" about this to get it started.

    What is known is there are perps in the schools (like there are many other places). Be it a janitor, teacher, whatever. I don't believe in giving the perps another means to groom a child with the districts' approval.

    I'm thinking beyond the scope of teachers "indoctrinating" students. I think that's a very small part of the picture. What is known is that perps will hide behind this to groom students.

    Questions. How many trans folks are there below the age of consent? We're talking surgeries, etc?

    Second. How many times have you heard about a teacher that has affairs with one or more students?

    Is hiding perps in the school system worth this.


  6. by HatetheSwamp on September 12, 2023 10:01 am

    It has to do with perps able to perp on your child and the district condoning the act. Weren't you taught as a kid, that if an adult (even a police officer or doctor) were to tell you "this would be our little secret" to tell someone you trusted?

    Bang on, OD.

    Like it or not, teachers and administrators in public schools are, as the anti-TQ LGB groups and activists point out daily. There's just no denying that!

    It's lesbians and gays and bisexuals who are most up in arms about this. The younger among them absolutely were indoctrinated. Some of them were convinced that they are trans and have been ruined for life...

    po and Donna refuse to even acknowledge that these stories are being told. They are!

    Just check out GAG. Oli London. There are oodles of X pages that tell the stories of children as you as elementary school age who are being groomed and indoctrinated into FALSELY believing they are trans.

    And, honestly, I think po and Donna know that and that's why they refuse to read GAG stuff.


  7. by Ponderer on September 12, 2023 10:30 am

    Isn't it amazing how there have been LGBTQ people all throughout every culture in all of human history... without them ever having to have been "groomed" by their teachers in schools?


  8. by HatetheSwamp on September 12, 2023 10:39 am

    Bang on, po.

    Of course, it's only the T crowd that is at issue.

    I've watched Jaimee Michell, GAG founder describe the pressure she faced as a tomboy to believe that she was born in the wrong body. She's puuuuure lesbo.

    The people who are at risk today are, especially, young children who will grow up to be gay and lesbian who are being strongly pressured to believe that they're trans.

    It's why your most radical foes ain't your "fascistic and disgusting" "MAGA Republican" "Christian theocrats." It's truly bonkers anti-TQ LGB groups and activists, whose numbers are growing exponentially.


  9. by Donna on September 12, 2023 3:21 pm

    olde dude: I don't understand how requiring school teachers and administrators to notify parents if a student outs themself in school as TG protects the student. Seems to me that you're conflating separate issues.




  10. by oldedude on September 12, 2023 7:52 pm
    I don't understand how requiring school teachers and administrators to notify parents if a student outs themself in school as TG protects the student.

    Why is it so important that they don't? Are we going to have thousands of TS kids murdered? Is it more important for the teachers and schools having their own private kabala with the students?

    It's ALL about not keeping secrets from parents. Is this one of the things that I don't think should be kept from parents? Yes, but only a VERY SMALL PART like I've said many times.

    MOST of what I'm worried (and many other parents/ grandparents that I've spoke with) that it's more about a perp telling the kids (under the direction of the school board, and the guise of this ruling) to keep secrets from the parents.

    What this ruling (and those that support it) does, is the government giving perps easier access to our children. Is it the TS community? No. Is it the gay community? Rarely. It's about other people that pray on those weaker than them.

    SCOTUS has always been supportive of parental rights. The kids are NOT, in any way wards of the schools. Especially if the children are under the age of consent, it's the legal responsibility of the government to allow parents know what they're kids are being taught and how they are doing in school. Period.

    You're trying to have it both ways. They're the schools until the kid brings a gun to school and shoots it up. THEN it's a parental issue, but the parents have been kept out (purposefully with malice) of the child's life by the school.

    I mentioned the issue in both Fairfax and Louden county school districts of (now that the district's are woke) there are perps taking full advantage of that and raping students. The school districts have full knowledge of the rapes and are sweeping it under the carpet. This is a biproduct of the decision.


  11. by Curt_Anderson on September 12, 2023 10:37 pm
    "... it's the legal responsibility of the government to allow parents know what they're kids are being taught and how they are doing in school." --OD

    Where is that written? When I was in school, parents might get a vague inkling of what was being taught through report cards, notices and parent-teacher conferences but no specifics. If a student was given detention or some other punishment the parents were generally not notified, unless there was a stabbing or something serious.

    You used the word "allow", if any parent requested more information about the curriculum the school wouldn't refuse to provide the information.

    "You're trying to have it both ways. They're the schools until the kid brings a gun to school and shoots it up." --OD

    You keep talking about "parental rights" as if it's a constitutional right. Parents have responsibilities but no particular rights as parents that I am aware of.

    Above I referenced the First and Fourth Amendments which protect everybody's, including children's, rights. Students and teachers have the right not to be shot. Therefore parents have the responsibility to be sure their mentally imbalanced child isn't packing. The Ethan Crumbley case will demonstrate that soon when their trials conclude.




  12. by oldedude on September 13, 2023 3:09 am
    "... it's the legal responsibility of the government to allow parents know what they're kids are being taught and how they are doing in school." --OD

    Where is that written?


    In Re: J.R.D. and R.C.D., 169 S.W.3d 740 (Tex. App. 2005)
    Pierce v. Society of Sisters, 268 U.S. 510 (1925)
    Routten v. Routten, 843 S.E.2d 154 (2020)
    Stanley v. Illinois, 405 U.S. 645 (1972)
    Troxel v. Granville, 530 U.S. 57 (2000)
    Washington v. Glucksberg, 521 U.S. 702 (1997)
    Wisconsin v. Yoder, 406 U.S. 205 (1972)
    These are references and case law in SCOTUS ruling on Routten v. Routten. All of these cases support the rights of parents in raising their children and is considered by courts to be case law.

    You used the word "allow", if any parent requested more information about the curriculum the school wouldn't refuse to provide the information.

    That is the exact reason this is such an issue. School districts are refusing to give this information to the parents and the public in general. If the district has a directive that keeps information from the parent, they are refusing to give them information by the districts' policies. (Have you been following this at all?) It's what Donna (et.al, including yourself) and I have been talking about ad nauseum.

    You keep talking about "parental rights" as if it's a constitutional right. Parents have responsibilities but no particular rights as parents that I am aware of.
    I think you have it reversed. The rights are first and support responsibilities. See above (ibid.)

    Parental Responsibility Law and Legal Definition
    Parental responsibility refers to a set of rights and privileges that children have with their parents and with those adults who have a significant role in the child's life as the basis of their relationship. Usually, parental responsibilities include both "parenting time" and "decision-making responsibilities." When parental responsibilities are determined through courts, the court allows the parent with decision-making responsibility to determine the child's upbringing, including his/her religious training. Usually, the parental responsibility for a minor child must be shared by both parents unless the court finds that shared parental responsibility would be detrimental to the child. However, the court can order sole parental responsibility, with or without visitation, when it is in the best interests of' the minor child. It is to be noted that before awarding sole parental responsibility, the trial courts are required to make a specific finding of the harm to the child.

    My point in the last paragraph is that with these responsibilities, schools are curtailing the ability of parents to uphold their responsibilities.
    supremecourt.gov
    definitions.uslegal.com


  13. by Donna on September 13, 2023 8:55 am

    Okay, so a minor student outs themselves as TG at school and school administration notifies the parents. How does that prevent a groomer from victimizing the minor student?


  14. by oldedude on September 13, 2023 10:06 am
    I'm going to ask again. "Why is it so important that they don't?" It doesn't make sense to me. So it's really hard to see your side of the story.

    Okay, so a minor student outs themselves as TG at school and school administration notifies the parents. How does that prevent a groomer from victimizing the minor student?
    It makes it harder for the perp to tell the kid "don't tell your parents what we're doing" because parents, teachers, and students are on the same page. Perps tell you not to say anything to your parents. People don't do that without nefarious reasons.

    If you're asking for a perfect world, there is none. Two assumptions on my part. 1. If the child will knowingly be put in danger, there are ways to manage that exception already in place and I support that. 2. Is what I'm talking about perfect? No. that's why they're perps. They will still find ways to have sex with little kids. AND it would be easier for the students to tell teachers (and their parents) if everyone is transparent about the situation.

    I believe it is in the best interest of the child to have that open conversation.


  15. by Donna on September 13, 2023 12:12 pm

    I'm not seeing how faculty/admin reporting to parents that their child outed themself as TG would make it harder for a perp to tell the minor to keep it a secret.

    What about if a child outs themself as gay at school? That needs to be reported to the parents too?


  16. by HatetheSwamp on September 13, 2023 12:33 pm

    When becoming gay requires the mutilation of a child's body, I'm pretty sure parents have a right to know.

    The truth is the size of the LGB not T movement is growing exponentially. Being LGB and being T ain't of a kind. More and more LGBs are insisting on that distinction. Many more.


  17. by oldedude on September 13, 2023 12:37 pm
    I'm not seeing how faculty/admin reporting to parents that their child outed themself as TG would make it harder for a perp to tell the minor to keep it a secret.

    What about if a child outs themself as gay at school? That needs to be reported to the parents too?


    The whole point is that not telling parents creates secrets between the child and parents. They get taught that's it's okay to lie to their parents, and anyone else the school tells me to. For about the 20th time. I this exists, it allows perps to keep their secrets from the parents or schools per se. So it allows the perps to operate much freer than if the child were taught like I was taught, and I taught my kids and will teach my grandkids that if ANY adult tells you it's a secret and don't tell anyone, you immediately tell us.

    The schools are telling kids they won't tell their parents, and the kids don't need to either.


  18. by oldedude on September 13, 2023 12:41 pm
    Donna- so my question again is; "Why is it so important that they don't tell the parents and lie to them?" It doesn't make sense to me.


  19. by HatetheSwamp on September 13, 2023 12:53 pm

    Donna,

    Were your parents abusive that your default is that LGBTQIA2+ children need to be protected by school authorities from their parents?


  20. by Ponderer on September 13, 2023 1:42 pm

    "Were your parents abusive that your default is that LGBTQIA2+ children need to be protected by school authorities from their parents?" -Hate

    Parental reactions, even lethal ones, are known to cost many LGBTQ youth their lives at the hands of a parent. It is a very legitimate fear, Bill. Especially if the closeted-at-home trans kid knows how they're momma or dadda or gram gram is very likely to react. The vast majority of trans youth living on the street got that way by being kicked out of their home by their parents because of who and what they are.

    If a trans youth isn't out at home and is only expressing their true selves at school, they may have an extremely good reason for wanting to keep it that way. Their parents not knowing may be the only thing keeping them from committing suicide even. The school informing the parents could lead to blood on the school system's hands.


    Woman pleads guilty in murder of son, 8, thought to be gay

    The mother of Gabriel Fernandez, the 8-year-old Palmdale, California, boy who died in 2013 after being routinely beaten and starved, pleaded guilty to first-degree murder on Thursday and admitted her son's death involved the infliction of torture.

    Under the terms of the plea deal, Pearl Fernandez, 34, is expected to be sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole, according to NBC Los Angeles. Her sentencing date is June 7.

    Pearl Fernandez's boyfriend, Isauro Aguirre, 37, was convicted of first-degree murder in December. Jurors recommended the death penalty for his role in fatally torturing the young boy. Aguirre is scheduled to be sentenced on March 8.

    During Aguirre's trial, Los Angeles County Deputy District Attorney Jon Hatami called him an "evil" man who "liked torture" and said Aguirre systematically abused Gabriel Fernandez because Aguirre thought the young boy was gay.

    The case is reminiscent of the November murder of 14-year-old Giovanni Melton, whose dad, Wendell Melton, allegedly shot and killed him because he could not accept his son's sexuality.

    The Nevada teen's former foster mother, Sonja Jones, told NBC's Las Vegas affiliate that Giovanni Melton was "abused physically and mentally and spiritually for many, many years" and said she believes Wendell Melton killed his son because of the boy's sexual orientation.

    "He hated the fact that his son was gay," Jones said. "I'm sure that inside of his mind, he would rather have a dead son than a gay son."

    Shortly after Giovanni Melton's death, Jaime Grant, executive director of PFLAG National, an LGBTQ family and ally organization, told NBC News his death death is part of broader societal issue.

    "We have a crisis of masculinity in this country," Grant said. "Many 'normative' messages men learn as they are growing up about stuffing their feelings, policing other men's gender and sexuality, asserting 'dominance' from the board room to the bedroom, also show up in their lives as fathers."

    While the murders of Giovanni Melton and Gabriel Fernandez are extreme examples, Catherine Hyde, PFLAG's mid-Atlantic regional director, said parents who inflict violence on their LGBTQ children -- or their children who they perceive to be LGBTQ -- are often at "the intersection of fear and ignorance."

    Hyde said she hopes parents who are struggling to accept their children's sexuality seek out resources from PFLAG or from other LGBTQ-affirming organizations.

    "There’s nothing in the world better than talking to someone who shares your experience," she said. "Give yourself the time to be angry and confused, but don't do it in front of your child. Find other parents who have the same experience."


  21. by oldedude on September 13, 2023 1:43 pm
    Donna- I'm not asking you to relive something you don't want. I'm good for an "in general" "because I think....." is good.

    I wouldn't expect that on a web site.


  22. by Ponderer on September 13, 2023 1:44 pm

    link for previous article...
    nbcnews.com


  23. by Ponderer on September 13, 2023 1:45 pm

    Ignore that.


  24. by Ponderer on September 13, 2023 1:45 pm

    Link for the previous article...

    nbcnews.com


  25. by Ponderer on September 13, 2023 1:46 pm

    ..........
    nbcnews.com


  26. by HatetheSwamp on September 13, 2023 2:01 pm

    We're not talking about gay and lesbian students. How could that possibly be a issue!!!!!?

    How could it be any business of the school if a boy is gay, or a girl a lesbian? If there's reason to think that a child is being abused, that's for child protective services to address.

    We're talking about public school teachers and administrators and counselors going behind parents' back to groom or recruit children into identifying as trans.

    This whole burgeoning anti-TQ LGB movement exists precisely because tomboys and femboys are being indoctrinated into adopting trans ideology and to identify as trans, not gay, not lesbian.

    Public schools have no right to be indoctrinating children, especially without parental consent and involvement.


  27. by Donna on September 13, 2023 2:19 pm

    HATE: We're discussing coming out as TG at school. We aren't talking about surgery. If you don't mind, I'm trying to have a thoughful discussion with olde dude, which you're unwilling to have because you're such an insufferable asshole.

    *

    I didn't come out to my family until I was 41 because I was terrified of them rejecting me, which my younger brother did. He still has nothing to do with me.

    If I started gradeschool today with the same family, I'd still be petrified of coming out at school, even if school personnel wouldn't report it to my parents, because of fear of rejection, not only by my family but by my school friends.

    If I came from a socially liberal family where I knew that I'd be accepted regardless of my sexual preference or identity, I probably would have come out to my family at a young age. So hiding it from my family wouldn't be an issue.

    I doubt very much if socially liberal parents are the ones who are demanding that school personnel report if their child comes out as TG at school. It's clear to me that most if not all of the parents who are demanding that see TGism as something that's wrong, even morally, and therefore they need to be notified so that they can intervene and correct it. My parents would have fallen into that category.

    Let's get real, though. If a minor comes out at school as TG and starts presenting as the other sex w/o their parents' knowledge, eventually it's going to get back to their parents by way of their classmates telling their own parents about it and those parents telling the TG child's parents. You just can't keep something that huge a secret from your family very long if you're already starting to present publicly as the other sex.



  28. by oldedude on September 13, 2023 4:49 pm
    I read your post with thought. Is there a reason (maybe that's been stated to you, or something like that) the movement want to specifically exclude parents/ caretakers?

    Here's what I'm looking for. I want to see the other side of this issue. I know there are problems with telling parents sometimes. My view is that it's better to do that in a controlled environment instead of parents finding out and the kid comes home to who knows what.

    Like I've said (and I'll still stick to it), I think the schools can work with both families and the kids to best take care of the needs of everyone to the best of their ability. I also know there are families that are not going to accept that at any point. So how do we work with that? My thought is that if that line of communication is open, it's better for the kid to figure things out. And the family may get tools to help themselves and the kid.

    Just my two cents. Thanks for the discussion so far.


  29. by Curt_Anderson on September 13, 2023 5:33 pm
    OD,
    I can see that you are coming from a good place and have genuine concern for children.

    I unconvinced however that teachers are experts at identifying transgender-leaning kids. So their guesses and opinions are just that. What is the point of possibly upsetting the family over their speculations? As I've said repeatedly, why should we expect teachers to notice what the parents are apparently oblivious to?

    I also don't see that sexual perverts would be dissuaded from abusing kids if the school tells the parents that their kid is likely to become transgender or gay or a Republican or whatever.

    I don't like a nanny state in the which the government (public schools in this instance) interfere and involve themselves with personal choices and personal expression. When I was a kid, teachers were constantly measuring the height of girls' hemlines and the length of boys' hair. Blue jeans were forbidden on the rationale that the rivets scratched the seats. All that was unnecessarily intrusive.

    Anyway, kids have phases and may or may not express their eventual and permanent sexuality.


  30. by Ponderer on September 13, 2023 5:37 pm

    Yeah, od. I appreciate your sincere attention to the subject. 👍


  31. by oldedude on September 13, 2023 7:04 pm
    po- thanks.

    Curt- you don't actually read my posts, do you?
    I unconvinced however that teachers are experts at identifying transgender-leaning kids. So their guesses and opinions are just that. What is the point of possibly upsetting the family over their speculations? As I've said repeatedly, why should we expect teachers to notice what the parents are apparently oblivious to?
    What the Teachers' union says is that they are and will proceed without the approval or notification of the parents. You're way off base of what I was ever talking about. Bringing one word or a phrase in doesn't matter.

    And since you haven't been keeping up with this for the past, I dunno, 8 months or so on your own site is for the conservatives, it's about hiding what is going on at school from the parents. Period.

    I also don't see that sexual perverts would be dissuaded from abusing kids if the school tells the parents that their kid is likely to become transgender or gay or a Republican or whatever.
    Again. Absolutely NOTHING to do with what I said.


  32. by Curt_Anderson on September 13, 2023 7:59 pm
    Curt- you don't actually read my posts, do you?
    You said: "They promoted a policy where schools would have to tell parents if their child showed signs of being [transgender]...I've said it's not about being anything but safe for the kids, and SCOTUS has consistently supported the rights of parents to know what's going on in the schools...etc."

    You also said: "It has to do with perps able to perp on your child and the district condoning the act...what is known is that perps will hide behind this to groom students...etc."


    Absolutely NOTHING, OD? I don't read your posts??!

    If you are not talking about teachers telling parents their kids might be transgender, what are you talking about? If "perps" aren't perpetrators who perversely prey upon kids, then what do you mean?



  33. by oldedude on September 13, 2023 9:42 pm
    I also don't see that sexual perverts would be dissuaded from abusing kids if the school tells the parents that their kid is likely to become transgender or gay or a Republican or whatever.

    You missed the last five or so posts. well, maybe the last 40 or so of mine on this subject.

    What is known is the perps are there. We know that. The issue is that when they tell the kids "this is our secret," THAT is exactly what a perp does. The issue is the schools are creating a norm of lying to the parents.

    You're creating the best possible playing field for perps. Because the procedures in these schools is NOT to inform parents of the gender identity and what is being taught in the school, The district already told the perps it's a great place because they are going to lie to their parents. A perp can say "don't tell your parents about this," and it's perfectly acceptable according to the district policy. And then be a perp and have a much better security the kid is going to think it's "normal" until they're much older.

    ALL teachers are mandatory reporters[1]. Legally, this means that if a child comes in with suspicious marks that may be abuse or neglect, teachers are required by law to report that. If they don't, they can be fired and charged with non- reporting.

    The push for the last 10-15 years is for parents to be much more involved with their kid's school. In charter and private schools, this may be mandatory and include going into the classroom two days a month (or . This happens especially in the lower grades so you can help kids read and do math the parents should know.
    findlaw.com


  34. by Curt_Anderson on September 13, 2023 10:12 pm
    "The issue is the schools are creating a norm of lying to the parents." --OD

    That's farfetched. My kids' teachers never once mentioned my kids' sexuality. I don't consider it lying that they didn't broach the subject. I glad they didn't bring it up. The teachers' job is to teach academic subjects, not to be a speculating busybody.



  35. by HatetheSwamp on September 14, 2023 3:59 am

    That's farfetched. My kids' teachers never once mentioned my kids' sexuality.

    Point is, Curt. You're a geezer. Things have changed.

    You need to summon the courage to follow Libs of TikTok on X for a month. And, GAG. And, Gay not Queer. And, Oli London. And, Chloe Cole...

    ...for just a month.

    You, truly, welcome to join us in the 21st century.

    "Behind nearly every “trans” kid is a narcissistic, white, progressive mother in desperate need of attention and validation. Beware. They are very dangerous." -GAG, 9/13/23.

    twitter.com


  36. by oldedude on September 14, 2023 6:10 am
    Donna, et al, sorry we were way beyond this part of the conversation. I'm going to do a recap so we can try to catch him up.

    That's farfetched. My kids' teachers never once mentioned my kids' sexuality. I don't consider it lying that they didn't broach the subject. I glad they didn't bring it up. The teachers' job is to teach academic subjects, not to be a speculating busybody.

    I hate to say it, but you're still missing a huge part of the conversation. You are "ass uming" the schools are being run like they were in the 1960's. They aren't. These districts ARE hiding what they are teaching. Purposefully and with malice. For most parents, it isn't about "asking" a kid about their sexuality (and many other things), it's about the districts refusing (using their own rules and procedures) to tell parents what they are teaching.

    You've also missed (apparently several times). "Schools in the United States are increasingly becoming the scene of politically charged debates. In Florida, the state is set to ban teaching sexual orientation and gender identity to children under the age of 10." There was an uproar about this part of the "don't say gay" law. This is part of AEIOU (Anatomy, Expression, Identity, Orientation, Universal) education which starts in kindergarten[1]. So it's not that teachers stumble over the issue. It's that it's being taught as a subject.

    Schools are mandating workers at the schools know the new "identification" of each student. At the same time, the doctrine of the school districts is to hide the identity of the student from the families (in this case, the parents, legal guardians, caregivers, etc).

    This is an issue on both sides. The left supports not telling parents. From the articles I've read and talking to Donna, it's about protecting especially the TS students. There is (I believe) a real fear of some families flatly rejecting the student. On the other side are parents who believe the schools should be open enough to tell the parents what is going on with their kids in a curriculum the district chooses to use.

    For most parents, this is the issue. The teachers aren't asking willy nilly. it's part of the curriculum. They are hiding not only the curriculum but also the results of what they are teaching.

    So that's the primer.


    academic.oup.com


  37. by Curt_Anderson on September 14, 2023 7:49 am
    For the record my son graduated in 2015. That’s not ancient history.


  38. by HatetheSwamp on September 14, 2023 7:56 am

    This is how Jaimee Michell explains the launching of GAG 15 months ago:

    "A little over a year ago, I decided that I could no longer sit by with the platform I had built over the years and not try to stop the grooming of children by the Alphabet Cult."

    Michell talks of about being a tomboy and facing increasing pressure to conclude that she was born in the wrong body throughout her childhood.

    She became disturbed by the manner in which trans people and trans-philes are openly and boldly indoctrinating, grooming and recruiting tomboys and femboys. She decided to form GAG which has nearly 400,000 X followers in this short time.

    Curt, based on what young adult gays and lesbians are saying, you have no idea what goes on in public schools in the 020s.

    And, Donna? You too.

    twitter.com


  39. by oldedude on September 14, 2023 10:06 am
    Curt #37- For the record my son graduated in 2015. That’s not ancient history.

    So you're the one that didn't know are care about what your kids were learning in school? Again, things have changed in the last three+ years. And honestly, unless you have skin in the game (meaning if you have a kid or grandkids in school) not many people really care too much about this. The other side is this is a huge thing for people with kids in the school systems. Especially public schools.


  40. by HatetheSwamp on September 14, 2023 10:25 am

    ...things have changed in the last three+ years...

    Bang on, OD!!!!!


    That's precisely the issue. 2015 is generations ago...in the trans debate.

    None of this came up...from either side...in 020 when "that feckless dementia-ridden piece of crap" was sitting in his basement trying to figure out how to pronounce BUILD BACK BETTER!!!!!

    Bahahahahahahahahahaha haha baha baha baha.


  41. by Donna on September 15, 2023 7:34 am

    od- That quote about your contention being "farfetched" that you attributed to me was posted by Curt, not me, but I agree with Curt.

    I'm still not seeing how a school policy requiring school teachers or administration to report perceived TGism to the students parents is going to prevent students from keeping secrets about their sexual identity or activities from their parents. Speaking from my personal experience, under no circumstances would I ever have outed myself to my parents.

    I think you're overthinking this. The parents who are complaining strike me as the type who hate transgenderism, and if they have a child who outed themself as TG at school, damned straight they want to know about it so that they can stop it!

    Having spent the first 35 years of my life in the closet about my TGism, I want a world, or at least a country where the stigma against homosexuality and transgenderism doesn't exist and a child doesn't have to feel constrained from keeping their sexual nature hidden from anyone.

    Some day, we as a nation will look back on this time where TGism is stigmatized the same way we look back on the days where we stigmatized atheists and anyone who wasn't heterosexual.


  42. by oldedude on September 15, 2023 8:52 am
    For the 21st time. This isn't only about the TG issue.

    It's about the schools refusing information parents need to know about THEIR children. It's also about the school district covering up information about THEIR children being sexually assaulted (because they can't/won't say this wokism doesn't work). These are cases that have happened.

    I know you only see black and white (the prison of only two ideas). That's a shame.

    And you have never stated why your position is so steadfast on this. You seem to think this is a singular issue that only pertains to a small group of people. Our (parents, grandparents, care givers, etc) view is that is a vast overstep of the districts.

    The wokesters started this argument and is forcing it down the throat of parents. They should have the common sense to figure out it can work with the parents instead of creating covens within the schools that secretly meet to prevent any other person from finding out what they do.

    So it's not only about the TS community, but about over sexualizing a kindergartener when they don't even know what sex is. (My cite to curt was from the group that has lesson plans and curriculum to do just that).


  43. by Donna on September 15, 2023 9:21 am

    Making TGism a problem that must be reported to the minor's parents just perpetuates the stigma I'm fighting against. I'm working to create a world where being L,G,B or T is as just as normal as being "straight".




  44. by oldedude on September 15, 2023 9:25 am
    Okay, do you understand that by doing this you're losing a vast amount of support to end your goal?


  45. by Donna on September 15, 2023 9:40 am

    I don't think that's true.

    The problem is that there are a lot of social conservatives who see TGism as a pathology that must be eliminated instead if something that's just different than the norm.


  46. by oldedude on September 15, 2023 10:37 am
    So to raise a rebellion against them is going to win them over? I'm not against TS, nor any of the other members of the acronym. And I am steadfast on this. Myself and many others feel forcing this secrecy against ALL parents completely violates my responsibilities as a parent and caretaker for those I am legally responsible for. You're looking at a forest and "ass ume" they're all on your side. They're not. You might want to at least read the highlights. A couple of suicide attempts, some assaults against the TS students the parents didn't know about. One got sold to human trafficking (was later found abused until she died).

    So good job! Yeah, this is fixing the problem! Bravo! Braavo. I guess you're like curt, as long as it isn't your kid, you don't give a shit.

    Just remember, don't bring a knife to a gunfight as they say. The backlash is going to be far worse for you than anything you could imagine right now. People are putting this into the same category as burnies' "reeducation" camps because it's done covertly. When I said covens, I was very specific in my language. That's the way it seems. But hey, bring it on. There are already court cases against this.

    Mom sues Virginia school district over daughter’s transgender secret
    A Virginia mother is suing her local school district, which she says declined to notify her that her daughter was identifying as a boy at school and was being harassed and assaulted by other students.


    My daughter thinks she's transgender. Her public school undermined my efforts to help her.I pleaded that my daughter's school call her by her legal name, use female pronouns. By refusing, they prevented her from getting the help she needs.

    Mom of Maine girl who got chest binder at school files lawsuit
    A Maine mom has filed a federal lawsuit against her 13-year-old daughter’s school board after she claimed the girl was secretly given a gender-transitioning device known as a “chest binder” and was referred to as a boy.

    Amber Lavigne alleges that the Great Salt Bay Community School Board violated her constitutional rights when school staffers secretly provided gender transition counseling to her daughter, the National Review reported.

    The transgender guidelines “are unconstitutional insofar as they provide for the concealment of, or do not mandate informing parents of, a decision to provide ‘gender-affirming’ care to a student,” the suit alleges.


    Lawsuit claims Clay County Schools withheld information about child’s well-being

    The father, who we are not naming to protect the identity of the child, said he was alerted on Jan. 5 that his daughter attempted to commit suicide on campus.

    The suit, filed by Child & Parental Rights Campaign, claims a school counselor held secret weekly meetings with an elementary student about a gender identity crisis for months without alerting the parents.

    “It is a serious mental health decision that school personnel are not qualified, not competent, and not authorized to make,” Vernadette Broyles, the organization’s president, said. “Parents must be involved in these important decisions.”

    washingtontimes.com
    usatoday.com
    nypost.com
    actionnewsjax.com


  47. by Donna on September 15, 2023 6:12 pm

    I couldn't care less what those parents think, just like I couldn't care less about all of the social conservatives who fought against same-sex marriage. They don't care what I think, either, which is fine with me.

    I will continue to work for a world where transgender people can just be themselves and not be treated as people who have to be hidden away from children.











  48. by oldedude on September 15, 2023 7:26 pm
    I will continue to work for a world where transgender people can just be themselves and not be treated as people who have to be hidden away from children.

    I think that's admirable and completely support it.

    As for the first part. Not only did you disregard the parents, but you also completely disregarded the student that thought they would be safe in a world that suddenly turned against them. They don't have to worry about their parents. They had to watch their back at school. The entire time they are there. So not only did this create a culture that you can say anything you want to the TS child (many of these were under the age of consent). But knock them down as they walk down the hall or throw them a gut punch and nothing happens.

    I can't believe you would condone a TS person to be beat up, raped (specifically because they identified as TS) and not have that reported to police and/or the parents. How do you think the students felt as they were getting beat for identifying as TS? Or when they were being raped and told it was because of identifying as TS? Is that getting your world where transgender people can just be themselves and not be treated as people who have to be hidden away from children?

    And the school districts are condoning the activity. It takes a suicide for the school to call the parents? W.T.F.? That to me is the most sickening. But that's what you want. This is that world you have been so steadfast to support. Every action has consequences. If you're okay with these consequences, fine. I will continue to work for the safety of the students. ALL of them.

    As I have said repeatedly, there are other options you're not creative enough to even think about. You're in the prison of two thoughts, and nothing, but nothing is going to allow you to think of any viable option that might resolve both issues. You wonder why there is such strong backlash to this?


  49. by Donna on September 15, 2023 7:45 pm

    Mom sues Virginia school district over daughter’s transgender secret

    A Virginia mother is suing her local school district, which she says declined to notify her that her daughter was identifying as a boy at school and was being harassed and assaulted by other students.


    The trans boy must have been afraid to come out to his mom. In any case, he has apparently chosen to subject himself to harrassment and assault at school rather than be forced to live a lie. I and probably every TG can relate.

    My daughter thinks she's transgender. Her public school undermined my efforts to help her.I pleaded that my daughter's school call her by her legal name, use female pronouns. By refusing, they prevented her from getting the help she needs.

    Obviously the mother sees TGism as something that needs to be cured. The mother is the one who's is preventing her trans child from getting the help he needs, not the public school.

    Mom of Maine girl who got chest binder at school files lawsuit

    A Maine mom has filed a federal lawsuit against her 13-year-old daughter’s school board after she claimed the girl was secretly given a gender-transitioning device known as a “chest binder” and was referred to as a boy.


    Sounds like the 13-year old was afraid of discussing his gender issues with his parents.There's the problem. I have a hunch that if he ever transitions, it isn't going to go over well with Mom.

    Amber Lavigne alleges that the Great Salt Bay Community School Board violated her constitutional rights when school staffers secretly provided gender transition counseling to her daughter, the National Review reported.

    The transgender guidelines “are unconstitutional insofar as they provide for the concealment of, or do not mandate informing parents of, a decision to provide ‘gender-affirming’ care to a student,” the suit alleges.

    Lawsuit claims Clay County Schools withheld information about child’s well-being

    The father, who we are not naming to protect the identity of the child, said he was alerted on Jan. 5 that his daughter attempted to commit suicide on campus.

    The suit, filed by Child & Parental Rights Campaign, claims a school counselor held secret weekly meetings with an elementary student about a gender identity crisis for months without alerting the parents.

    “It is a serious mental health decision that school personnel are not qualified, not competent, and not authorized to make,” Vernadette Broyles, the organization’s president, said. “Parents must be involved in these important decisions.”


    I think that if a student is getting any kind of formal counseling at school, parents need to be notified. I just hope the parents don't stand in the way of getting their child into counseling or therapy from qualified professionals in the field of gender dysphoria.

    But again, you have to wonder why the trans boy was afraid to talk to his parents about his gender issues.

    I certainly was. My parents were/are great people and I love them dearly, but they wouldn't have done well with this issue, and neither would my brothers.

    That's what I'm working to change. I'm seeing it in all the examples you posted.

    You have no idea how hard it is to come out to your parents if they're socially conservative. I had a difficult time doing that when I was 42. The thought of coming out to my family in high school was terrifying. Not that I thought they'd beat me - nothing like that. I knew they wouldn't understand it. I feared they would no longer be proud of me. My three brothers? eee gadz.

    It's that damned stigma.

    That's why those trans kids were doing all of that without their parents' knowledge. They felt like they had no adults to talk to about it. That's why they turned to teachers and administrators.

    Socially conservative parents will never accept TGism in their children. The kids know that, which is why they hide it.

    They won't get a chance to transition until they're 18 and out of the house, which is becoming increasingly hard for young adults to do. And then they'll need to have insurance that'll cover it, especially if they think they might go all the way.

    It can be a difficult life. Sheri and I have been fortunate.






  50. by oldedude on September 15, 2023 8:04 pm
    The issue here is (that you still refuse to look at) is the schools are not reporting the beatings and rapes in these cases. If you approve of them. Great. I think their lives are worth more than you do, but that's okay.

    Again, you're in the prison of two thoughts. It's either "save one" and deal with the collateral deaths and beatings, or try to actually fix the problem. Those deaths are on you.


  51. by Ponderer on September 16, 2023 6:58 am

    "Again, you're in the prison of two thoughts." -olde dude

    And again, as a radical conservative, you are trapped in the prison of your genetic predisposition for flailing projection. Because that is exactly what you are doing to Donna here. As you are so wont to do.


    "Those deaths are on you." -olde dude

    And in this instance, we can see how you are hopelessly and quite perpetually trapped by a habitual necessity of having to gofuck yourself.


    You know olde dude, always trying to come up with the most ludicrous accusations to guilt trip someone into seeing things your way as you always do is a debating tactic, besides getting tiresome and boring, absolutely wallows in lameness.


  52. by oldedude on September 16, 2023 7:21 am
    The thing we've been trying to get across is since the schools have taken this over from the parents, they are legally responsible for the child in this respect. That's the rule. That's why the lawsuits. If they didn't want the responsibility, they shouldn't have the authority.


    You have no idea how hard it is to come out to your parents if they're socially conservative. I had a difficult time doing that when I was 42. The thought of coming out to my family in high school was terrifying.

    (Assume that I cut and pasted your entire post. I don't want to waste your time.)

    You're right, I don't. I had a hard enough time telling my folks I was going into the military (I came real close to being kicked out and never spoken to again). But your situations are absolutely not the same and far more serious.

    I'm socially conservative. So are my sons. My two sons (and I) don't care who you are. You're accepted on the content of your character. So there's that. I'm thankful we're in FL with this couple and their kids. They (parents and kids) are going to need help if anything like this happens. Regardless, I will always love and support the child.

    This is my view. I'm also using the entire post because this is trying to be an inclusive piece to help the student as well as the family. First, there are going to be those who think it's "cool" to do this. I completely dismiss that. I'm speaking to those that are genuinely dysphoric with this issue. We are trying to get them through this as safely and as inclusive as possible.

    First, notice the suicides were at school. People commit suicide at the place they need to be listened from. That's why vets shoot themselves at the VA centers. These kids were shouting out to those they wanted to listen to them.

    If they're serious about this (through counseling to establish a baseline) erring on the side of caution, the student does need counseling. We've talked about this. There are a lot of worries to go through, and they're going to need help with that so they don't commit suicide and they can engage the world as healthy. You notify the parents their kid is seeing a counselor for some school issues. In that you work on communication with parents and family, and you're priming the family there are some issues you're working through. If you do this cold, you get the reaction you get.

    So eventually, group counseling should be part of this. If nothing more than to establish communication and empathy.

    There are some other "what if's" but that's getting too far into the weeds, and I'm sure you (et.al.) have much better ideas about what to do from there.

    This is what I meant by another idea instead of only black and white. You have to think in technicolor and three dimensional if this is going to happen. And it's just one idea. I'm sure those pulling purse strings have a very different view.



  53. by oldedude on September 16, 2023 7:23 am
    And I didn't see jjpo's post. I may have answered with something more jjpo-ish.


  54. by Donna on September 16, 2023 9:00 am

    Since I've lived it, of course I've been giving plenty of thought to all aspects of the issue for many decades, which is ongoing.

    So far I haven't been able to think of any solution for TG kids with parents who aren't accepting of TGism. The stigma is still very strong in socially conservative families and I think it will be for the foreseeable future.

    So TG kids will continue to suffer in silence and wait it out until they can afford to live on their own and make enough money to pay for SRS if they choose to take it that far. Other TG kids in the same situation will seek out help through school and support groups without their parents' knowledge, and some of those adults, knowing the child's situation with their parents, will lend them support out of compassion.


  55. by oldedude on September 16, 2023 9:50 am
    Donna-
    So my question remains. What is percentage of students that are genuinely gender dysphoric. (I don't know the answer, so I'm trying to be up front). I think there are those (as shown by the lawsuits) the system is not working for. Since the districts per se, are making this change, it is up to them to implement a workable solution. They are legally responsible for the fix. So having students beaten, raped, and dead does not do well for them. Of course, neither do students that are dead to their families. Both are issues.

    Are there parts of this that could be changed to make it workable? or is it a total shtshow and we should do nothing and let things proceed as they are.

    OR.... do you have a better way to do this I haven't thought of? I just need to know. The truth is that if you're not interested in doing this at all, we're both wasting our time.

    You and I both agreed on counseling being a "best practice" in this scenario. In my very rough draft, you can't see any way that would work, given that not all answers are perfect. Given I've been asking for your input of a solution this entire time. I'm open to your reasoning.

    The closest I have are people in the military that would be unceremoniously discharged with a "less than honorable discharge" just for being gay under "don't ask, don't tell." The fact that as a supervisor knowing and not reporting, I would be under the same rules. It's one reason I hated that rule so friggin much. It was stupid and made by people that couldn't buy a clue about the issue.

    Just as a marker. As these lawsuits proceed, districts may be very skeptical of their value. Regardless of what either or any of us think, money talks. If it's too expensive to have the rules, the rules will change.


  56. by Donna on September 16, 2023 10:02 am

    I don't know offhand the percentage of people who are genuinely gender dysphoric, and I have nothing to add right now to what I've already said.





  57. by oldedude on September 16, 2023 10:12 am
    So it's a shtshow and give up. Okay. I'm done also.


  58. by Donna on September 16, 2023 11:05 am

    If I had a solution, of course I'd post it.



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