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Crime selectors, pages, etc.
The Georgia Indictment. WOW!
By Curt_Anderson
August 14, 2023 9:10 pm
Category: Crime

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The Georgia district attorney gave Trump and the other 18 individuals in the indictment until noon on August 25 to surrender to law enforcement.

The charges include violating the Georgia RICO Act—the Racketeer Influenced And Corrupt Organizations Act; Solicitation of Violation of Oath by a Public Officer; Conspiracy to Commit Impersonating a Public Officer; Conspiracy to Commit Forgery in the First Degree; Conspiracy to Commit False Statements and Writings; Conspiracy to Commit Filing False Documents; Conspiracy to Commit Forgery in the First Degree; Filing False Documents; and Solicitation of Violation of Oath by a Public Officer.

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Comments on "The Georgia Indictment. WOW!":

  1. by Donna on August 14, 2023 9:46 pm

    We were watching when Fani Willis made the announcement.

    I read a piece in the NYT about the Georgia case. There's a lot more to it than what's commonly known.

    Willis' DA office has tried 11 RICO cases since she became DA of Fulton County, GA in 2021. I wonder what their record is.


  2. by Curt_Anderson on August 14, 2023 10:18 pm
    Donna,
    The NY Times reported this:
    "Since she became chief prosecutor, her office’s conviction rate has stood at close to 90 percent, according to a spokesperson." That's not specifically RICO cases, of course.

    As I said on another thread, Georgia is a nightmare for Trump. It is a state charge and in a state court. US presidents cannot pardon people convicted in state court.

    Georgia cases can be televised--Trump won't like that, especially since he won't be testifying (I don't think his lawyers will let him get near the stand).

    There are many co-defendants in this case. Some of these guys might prefer to become witnesses rather than be defendants. There is likely to be an unseemly rush to talk with Willis and plea bargain.


    nytimes.com


  3. by Ponderer on August 14, 2023 10:18 pm

    Donald Trump and Eighteen Others Under Arrest For Racketeering.

    The law catches up with Donald J. Trump.


  4. by Indy! on August 15, 2023 2:21 am

    You heard the old adage - you can indict a ham sandwich? Same thing, except no bread for this ham.


  5. by HatetheSwamp on August 15, 2023 3:53 am

    You woke, white electric limousine lib lovin TDSers! A Trump indictment is like Christmas Day for a five-year old! It's so friggin cute!

    Santy really came through for you,... again! You must have really been good progressive boys and girls this year!

    Y'know how a parent's joy on Christmas day is seeing the joy experienced by the kiddies?

    pb's feelin very parental toward little po, little Donna, little Curty and little isley today. Sweet!

    Bwahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahaha baha haha baha bahahahahahahahahahaha, ahhhhhhhhhh!

    Keeheeheeheeheeheeheehee hee hee hee hee hooooooooooooo,ahhhhhhhhhhh, baha baha.


  6. by HatetheSwamp on August 15, 2023 4:34 am

    Jonathan Turley:

    "The scope of the alleged conspiracy is massive. Indeed, every call, speech, and tweet appears a criminal step in the conspiracy. District Attorney Fani Willis appears to have elected to charge everything and everyone and let God sort them out."

    This is po level TDS, for real!

    Ans, it's waaaaaaaaaay tooooooooo sweet!


  7. by islander on August 15, 2023 7:14 am

    Typical tactic for the the racketeers who now own and run what used to be the Republican party...while claiming to investigate voter fraud in GA, they were actively committing election fraud!!

    It's going to be wonderful to watch all those racketeering thugs brought down in the coming year!

    Now even those who were a bit impatient at first will be saying..."It was well worth the wait" !!!

    Cheers mates !! 🍻



  8. by HatetheSwamp on August 15, 2023 7:22 am

    Ahhhhhhhhhhh. You and that loathing of the crimson patch in the uniparty!

    There's so little one can count on in this life...


  9. by Donna on August 15, 2023 9:05 am

    If convicted, the GA constitution doesn't allow a governor's pardon until the convict has spent 5 years in prison.

    A close friend of mine has been hopeful that Trump will go to prison, which like Indy, I've been cynical about. But with that said, I'm not ruling it out. Some of these alleged crimes carry mandatory prison sentences, which I'm certain that Willis will push for.






  10. by HatetheSwamp on August 15, 2023 9:17 am

    Donna,

    I'm dubious about a conviction. Yet, I know that, for TDSers, hope continues to spring.

    Still, if the jury convicts, the judge'll have to imprison a rich 78 year old white man for a white collar crime.

    I know that some of you'd experience pornographic joy seeing Trump in prison. My advice? Seek joy elsewhere. Cuz...

    As Indy's been sayin. Ain't happnin.


  11. by Donna on August 15, 2023 3:53 pm

    I used to think that too. I'm still not ciunt3ing on it, but the mandatory minimum sentence is 5 years in prison.


  12. by HatetheSwamp on August 15, 2023 4:03 pm

    Minimum of five years, for some of the charges.


  13. by oldedude on August 15, 2023 8:11 pm
    That's IF there are charges that aren't already brought forth in the federal court. If there are, the GA charges are null and void (separately, so you have to show every one). So. If the trumpster can set up their defense with prelims, the case is done. just like that. jussayin. It's a great legal defense. That's what prelims are for.

    AND if the requests from trumpster are within legal reason (according to their law), that charge is null and void.

    So we'll see what pops up.


  14. by HatetheSwamp on August 16, 2023 3:11 am

    Right. OD.

    The Swamp has created quite a mess. Trump’s being charged with the same crime by both SHITTY SMITTY and, on Philly talk radio they pronounce it "Funny" Willis.


  15. by islander on August 16, 2023 4:20 am
    "Can You Be Prosecuted in Both State and Federal Court?

    Some cases will violate both state and federal law. While cases will normally be filed in either federal or state court, there is no bar against prosecuting a criminal case in both federal and state court simultaneously when the conduct violates both federal and state law.

    Some people believe that the Double Jeopardy Clause of the U.S. Constitution prevents them from being charged in both state and federal court for the same criminal conduct.

    However, while the Double Jeopardy Clause does prohibit trying someone twice for the same offense, it contains a separate sovereign exception. Under this exception, a person can be tried in both state and federal courts since the federal and state governments are separate."
    *
    dicindiolaw.com


  16. by HatetheSwamp on August 16, 2023 4:58 am

    I think that you're right as far as this goes. In the end, this almost certainly will come down to Trump being convicted in Banana Republic Dem dominated jurisdictions and federal appellate courts making ultimate decisions.

    That's gunna be an Achilles heel for Fani. Federal courts will resolve conflicts between a state and a federal case.


  17. by oldedude on August 16, 2023 6:31 am
    That differs in each state. In GA, the answer is "NO."

    2020 Georgia Code
    Title 16 - Crimes and Offenses
    Chapter 1 - General Provisions
    § 16-1-7. Multiple Prosecutions for Same Conduct


    When the same conduct of an accused may establish the commission of more than one crime, the accused may be prosecuted for each crime. He may not, however, be convicted of more than one crime if:
    One crime is included in the other; or
    The crimes differ only in that one is defined to prohibit a designated kind of conduct generally and the other to prohibit a specific instance of such conduct.
    If the several crimes arising from the same conduct are known to the proper prosecuting officer at the time of commencing the prosecution and are within the jurisdiction of a single court, they must be prosecuted in a single prosecution except as provided in subsection (c) of this Code section.
    When two or more crimes are charged as required by subsection (b) of this Code section, the court in the interest of justice may order that one or more of such charges be tried separately.
    (Code 1933, § 26-506, enacted by Ga. L. 1968, p. 1249, § 1; Ga. L. 1982, p. 3, § 16.)

    Cross references.
    - Multiple jeopardy, U.S. Const., amend. 5 and Ga. Const. 1983, Art. I, Sec. I, Para. XVIII.

    Fraud generally, § 16-9-50 et seq.

    Law reviews.
    - For survey article citing developments in Georgia criminal law from mid-1980 through mid-1981, see 33 Mercer L. Rev. 95 (1981). For annual survey of criminal law, see 38 Mercer L. Rev. 129 (1986). For annual survey on criminal law and procedure, see 42 Mercer L. Rev. 141 (1990). For note discussing organized crime in Georgia with respect to the application of state gambling laws, and suggesting proposals for combatting organized crime, see 7 Ga. St. B. J. 124 (1970). For comment, "Grady v. Corbin: An Unsuccessful Effort to Define Same Offense," see 25 Ga. L. Rev. 143 (1990).

    law.justia.com


  18. by islander on August 16, 2023 7:27 am

    No one has been arguing that Trump can be charged twice for the same crime in GA.


  19. by Ponderer on August 16, 2023 7:29 am

    Gee, olde dude. With your vast and omniscient knowledge of Georgia law, you should contact Fani Willis's office right away and alert her to the law she is apparently not aware of!

    🙄



  20. by HatetheSwamp on August 16, 2023 7:31 am

    So, what's Teri's take. If the DC judge sentences him to say, 10 years and the Georgia judge to 15?, for the same act?, does he serve 25?


  21. by Ponderer on August 16, 2023 7:44 am

    I dunno the answer to that, Bill. But we're going to eventually see how they work that out, aren't we.


  22. by islander on August 16, 2023 8:02 am

    "When the state sentences a person to spend time in jail or prison and the federal court also sentences the person to federal prison, time will be served in both the state prison and the federal prison."

    Obviously not at the same time. Check out this link to learn more about this.
    thelawman.net


  23. by HatetheSwamp on August 16, 2023 9:34 am

    Not precisely on point. I meant to ask, can a person be punished two times for the same act? That doesn't seem just...even if the person is Trump.


  24. by islander on August 16, 2023 9:45 am

    "In the U.S., each state is a separate sovereign entity with its own constitution, laws, governments, and courts. This allows each state the power to make laws as long as the laws do not go against federal law. When someone is charged with a crime at the state level, they can also be charged with the same crime at the federal level since state and federal laws are separate entities. "



  25. by HatetheSwamp on August 16, 2023 9:59 am

    Right.

    But, can they be punished two times for the same act?


  26. by Indy! on August 16, 2023 10:07 am

    Kabuki theater.


  27. by Curt_Anderson on August 16, 2023 11:18 am
    HtS,
    You can doublecheck me, but I recall that Derek Chauvin was charged in state and federal courts for the murder of George Floyd.

    Even if a person cannot be charged in state and federal courts for the same crime, Trump can be charged for committing the same type of crime multiple times in different states.


  28. by Donna on August 16, 2023 11:26 am

    ...and he probably will be.


  29. by Donna on August 16, 2023 11:28 am

    From Yahoo News -

    LOL!!!

    "A Large, Complex, Detailed but Irrefutable REPORT on the Presidential Election Fraud which took place in Georgia is almost complete & will be presented by me at a major News Conference at 11:00 A.M. on Monday of next week in Bedminster, New Jersey,” Trump announced Tuesday morning on Truth Social. “Based on the results of this CONCLUSIVE Report, all charges should be dropped against me & others – There will be a complete EXONERATION! They never went after those that Rigged the Election. They only went after those that fought to find the RIGGERS!”


  30. by oldedude on August 16, 2023 11:56 am
    po #19- Gee, olde dude. With your vast and omniscient knowledge of Georgia law, you should contact Fani Willis's office right away and alert her to the law she is apparently not aware of!
    All I did was to do a search since isle's citation stated that "most states..." It took a whole 0.47seconds... to factcheck his citation. I WILL say it was a true citation. He didn't take that extra step. I did.

    isle #18- No one has been arguing that Trump can be charged twice for the same crime in GA.

    See below

    isle #15- Some people believe that the Double Jeopardy Clause of the U.S. Constitution prevents them from being charged in both state and federal court for the same criminal conduct.

    However, while the Double Jeopardy Clause does prohibit trying someone twice for the same offense, it contains a separate sovereign exception. Under this exception, a person can be tried in both state and federal courts since the federal and state governments are separate."


    (Code 1933, § 26-506, enacted by Ga. L. 1968, p. 1249, § 1; Ga. L. 1982, p. 3, § 16.)

    isle #24- "In the U.S., each state is a separate sovereign entity with its own constitution, laws, governments, and courts. This allows each state the power to make laws as long as the laws do not go against federal law. When someone is charged with a crime at the state level, they can also be charged with the same crime at the federal level since state and federal laws are separate entities. "
    ibid

    curt #27- You can doublecheck me, but I recall that Derek Chauvin was charged in state and federal courts for the murder of George Floyd.

    Even if a person cannot be charged in state and federal courts for the same crime, Trump can be charged for committing the same type of crime multiple times in different states.

    with Rodney King & Chauvin, The state charged the murder, the feds charged the hate crime. Two different crimes.
    law.justia.com
    dicindiolaw.com
    en.wikipedia.org


  31. by islander on August 16, 2023 1:03 pm

    Old Dude, who are you addressing in your last post #30 and what on earth are you trying to say or argue?


  32. by oldedude on August 16, 2023 2:02 pm
    Which part. I was answering several questions and accusations. You'll have to be more specific.


  33. by oldedude on August 16, 2023 2:34 pm
    I can't believe you're that simple. On each statement, I cited the post #, the poster, and what part of the post I was responding to. I'm really sorry if you can't/won't understand that. I figure if an OCD 4th grader could figure it out, you shouldn't have a problem with it. Apparently, I was wrong.


  34. by Donna on August 16, 2023 3:02 pm

    So then you agree with those 2 posts of islander's.



  35. by oldedude on August 16, 2023 9:08 pm
    WTF? HOW did you come to that? I never considered you unable to think of more than one idea at a time, but I guess so.

    The citation was generally correct, but isle forgot to look to see if GA had that law. I looked it up, so in this case, he's wrong. I just looked up the law and proved him wrong. I guess I'm also proving you wrong and incapable of using the actual law to show a point.

    Lead- The prison of two ideas.


  36. by HatetheSwamp on August 17, 2023 4:06 am

    OD,

    Bang on. A friend of my encourages me to "Be amused, not annoyed."

    Our fellow posters, constrained by TDS as they are, are a source of continuing amusement, eh!!!!!?


  37. by Donna on August 17, 2023 6:27 am

    od - The info you provided for posts 15 and 24, which are islander's, clearly support what islander posted.



  38. by Donna on August 17, 2023 6:30 am

    Oh wait. I just noticed that that info you posted was just a cut and paste from islander's posts.



  39. by Donna on August 17, 2023 6:32 am

    I'm not seeing a rebuttal to the info islander provided.


  40. by HatetheSwamp on August 17, 2023 6:41 am

    #s 15 and 24 are both duh, as far as I can tell.

    No doubt, DAs in every jurisdiction in America can charge Trump for the same act.

    My question remains. Can a person be punished twice for the same act...even if the person is Donald J Trump?


  41. by islander on August 17, 2023 6:52 am
    old dude ~ OK I’m going to take a few minutes to try and explain specifically what I can’t figure out in your post #30. You cant just post quotes without making some kind of connection between them, and then complain if people don’t know what the heck you are trying to say.

    Starting with your post #13...You say:
    “That's IF there are charges that aren't already brought forth in the federal court. If there are, the GA charges are null and void (separately, so you have to show every one).

Not sure exactly what you are saying there but you seem to be saying that Trump cannot be charged for the same crime in a federal court and a GA court.

    I showed you in post #15 that they can indeed be prosecuted for the same crime in a state court and a federal court without violating the double jeopardy laws. The link I provided explained how and why.

    Next in post #17 you posted “2020 Georgia Code
    Title 16 - Crimes and Offenses
    Chapter 1 - General Provisions
    § 16-1-7. Multiple Prosecutions for Same Conduct”

    That site was basically saying you cannot be tried for the same crime twice in a GA state court (double jeopardy).

Right after that in post #18...I wrote: “No one has been arguing that Trump can be charged twice for the same crime in GA.”
    What we have been arguing is whether someone can be prosecuted in a Federal court and a GA State court for the same crime.

    Then in post #30 you posted what I said about no one arguing that someone can be charged with same same crime twice in GA.

Your next two quotes in the same post are from me showing that a person CAN be charged with the same crime in a GA state court and a federal court’

So are you now agreeing with me or disagreeing with me?

I can’t figure out what you are getting at in your post #30.

    You also made the mistake of citing the Floyed case to prove your point:

    "with Rodney King & Chauvin, The state charged the murder, the feds charged the hate crime. Two different crimes." ~ Old dude

    Of course they were different since murder is not a Federal crime unless the victim is a federal officer, agent, or judge. The victim is an elected or appointed federal government official.



  42. by oldedude on August 17, 2023 8:47 am
    That site was basically saying you cannot be tried for the same crime twice in a GA state court (double jeopardy).

Right after that in post #18...I wrote: “No one has been arguing that Trump can be charged twice for the same crime in GA.”
    What we have been arguing is whether someone can be prosecuted in a Federal court and a GA State court for the same crime.


    According to GA law, NO (for about the fourth or fifth time. It also said that states differ in how they view double jeopardy. You stopped there and disregarded the "some" and "assumed" GA was part of the group that allows it. You're wrong. You're finding what you want in the law and stopping there. Just like below. Again, in law you have to read the whole thing, or get a citation that includes more than what you're getting from your present citations. So you're about 70% correct, it's the other 30% that you're not seeing.

    Of course they were different since murder is not a Federal crime unless the victim is a federal officer, agent, or judge. The victim is an elected or appointed federal government official.
    But there's more to it than that. IF the murder is tied to another federal crime (McVeigh, Nichols, and Tsarnaev). OR if there is interstate crime.

    In most cases, the crime of murder is prosecuted in state courts as a state crime. But murder becomes a federal crime

    when it occurs in violation of federal law, or
    when it takes place on a federal land or territory.
    Examples of when this occurs include when a

    murder is of a federal judge or a federal law enforcement official and
    when a person kills another human being during the commission of a bank robbery.
    Federal murder cases can get charged as either first-degree murder or second-degree murder. First-degree murder is the more serious of the two and can lead to life in prison or the death penalty. A second-degree murder conviction can mean years in federal prison or even a life-term sentence.

    shouselaw.com


  43. by islander on August 17, 2023 1:51 pm

    od wrote: According to GA law, NO (for about the fourth or fifth time. It also said that states differ in how they view double jeopardy. You stopped there and disregarded the "some" and "assumed" GA was part of the group that allows it.”

    You’re still getting this wrong, od. Did you not understand what I meant when I said:

    No one has been arguing that Trump can be charged twice for the same crime in GA.

    Under GA state statutes charging a person for committing the same crime in GA state courts is prohibited, it comes under GA double jeopardy statutes.
    I think what you don’t understand is the sovereignty part in, 
“Some people believe that the Double Jeopardy Clause of the U.S. Constitution prevents them from being charged in both state and federal court for the same criminal conduct."

    However, while the Double Jeopardy Clause does prohibit trying someone twice for the same offense, it contains a separate sovereign exception clause called “dual sovereignty” . Under this exception, a person can be tried in both state and federal courts since the federal and state governments are separate dual sovereignties. The Supreme court affirmed this: 
”In a 7-2 ruling, the justices affirmed the so-called “dual sovereignty” exception to the Constitution’s double jeopardy clause. The opinion was authored by Justice Samuel Alito, who wrote that the rule is “not an exception at all.”

    The Fifth Amendment’s double jeopardy clause states that “No person shall [...] be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb.” Alito wrote that because states and the federal government are both sovereign governments, a violation of state and federal law is not the “same offense,” but is instead separate offenses.

    Some cases will violate both state and federal law. While cases will normally be filed in either federal or state court, there is no bar against prosecuting a criminal case in both federal and state court simultaneously when the conduct violates both federal and state law.



    cnbc.com


  44. by oldedude on August 17, 2023 2:15 pm
    You're arguing about Georgia law without bringing in Georgia law to argue it. As long as you continue to do that, your "argument" is null. Without bringing in ALL the facts, your argument is inane. I'm not going to argue any more.


  45. by oldedude on August 17, 2023 2:39 pm
    Donna #37- od - The info you provided for posts 15 and 24, which are islander's, clearly support what islander posted.

    There's a difference between "the same act" and "the same charge."

    The same act references, like the Chauvin case. In that "act" of Chauvin, there are multiple charges. The state handled the murder. And found him not guilty (I don't get it, but that's what they did). The Feds found a different charge under USC 18, they could charge him with. Nowhere in the constitution does it prohibit that use of the law. They are two different "charges."

    GA law says they cannot charge the person twice for the same "Charge" (or one very closely resembling) within that singular crime.

    IF the feds have charged trumpster with, say demanding an elected official commit a crime. AND it's the same crime they're talking about (the GA case, threatening the same person) GA cannot make that charge. Nor can they make a charge that's close enough defense could argue it. If there's a separate statute in their law that isn't close to that, they CAN charge.

    So to me, it looks like we got locked up in semantics, which in this case does make a difference.


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