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Matt Gaetz says his GOP colleagues pushing the now indicted "highly credible confidential" source were a little "over-sauced".
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So we're in the market for a house...
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THE DRINKS ARE ON ME, BOYS!!!
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What to expect from Jim Biden's testimony before the House Oversight Committee...
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Joe Manchin interview: Electing Trump would be very detrimental to US, world. Biden too liberal now.
Politics by Curt_Anderson     February 22, 2024 12:48 pm (Rating: 0.0) Last comment by: HatetheSwamp (1 comments) [36 views]


To set the record straight, GOPs are stoked for impeachment after Jim Biden's lies under oath
Crime by HatetheSwamp     February 22, 2024 6:57 am (Rating: 0.0) Last comment by: (0 comments) [17 views]


The truth about Alexander Smirnov and the GOP push to impeach the Doddering Old Fool
Politics by HatetheSwamp     February 22, 2024 6:43 am (Rating: 0.0) Last comment by: (0 comments) [4 views]


So it really is Russia, Russia, Russia that helps Trump get elected
Crime by Curt_Anderson     February 20, 2024 5:42 pm (Rating: 0.0) Last comment by: HatetheSwamp (10 comments) [100 views]


HouseGOP Andy Biggs-AZ says, based on evidence, James Biden lied to the Oversight Committee
Crime by HatetheSwamp     February 22, 2024 3:40 am (Rating: 0.0) Last comment by: (0 comments) [3 views]


Federal judge affirms MyPillow's Mike Lindell must pay $5M in election data dispute
Law by Curt_Anderson     February 21, 2024 6:02 pm (Rating: 0.0) Last comment by: Ponderer (1 comments) [19 views]


Gay & Lesbian selectors, pages, etc.
Texas Close to Passing ‘Save Women’s Sports Act’ Banning Transgender Athletes at Collegiate Level
By HatetheSwamp
May 20, 2023 3:19 am
Category: Gay & Lesbian

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The Dem Party and the trans political agenda!

The bill passed mainly along party lines.

If passed into law, Texas would join a growing number of red states prohibiting transgender athletes from competing on teams that don’t align with their sex at birth.

Institutions of higher education or intercollegiate athletic teams may not retaliate against a person for reporting a violation of the bill.

It also would allow women to compete against men in sports if a corresponding women’s team is not offered or available.

Democrats fought the bill because they believed it discriminates against males identifying as female who want to compete in women’s sports. During the House debate, they claimed it was an answer looking for a problem because no trans athletes were competing on the collegiate level in Texas.

"What exactly are we saving them from?” Democrat Rep. John Bucy said when presenting an amendment that would have essentially killed the bill...he struggled when Republican Rep. Matt Schaefer asked, “What is a woman...When they say they’re a woman, then they’re a woman,” Bucy said.” [baha baha]


pb's still waiting for any woke LGBT leader of national prominence to oppose biological males competing against women. None did here. And, it was Dems, AGAIN, who voted against protecting the integrity of women's sports.

Title IX, eh? Women’s Rights!

The Dems fighting the bill reminds us geezers of Dems fighting Civil Rights legislation in the 60s.

FREEDOM!


Cited and related links:

  1. theepochtimes.com

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Comments on "Texas Close to Passing ‘Save Women’s Sports Act’ Banning Transgender Athletes at Collegiate Level":

  1. by Hunter28 on May 20, 2023 3:22 pm

    As I've said numerous times, I'm skeptical of a lot of arguments presented by pro-trans advocates, particularly in relation to restrooms, sports and minors transitioning. But I do recognize that most of the people who support things I don't are coming at this from a good place. They mean well and generally want to help people endure less suffering and live happier lives. But I don't think they appreciate all the negative unintended consequences that these new policies could bring. This doesn't mean they're bad people. It just means we need to have a better conversation.


  2. by Ponderer on May 20, 2023 5:27 pm

    Donna here. That's why I spent a lot of my time cutting through a lot of the misinformation that's out there regarding transgenderism. I'm not optimistic that the info I posted will make a difference though, at least not in the foreseeable future, as I see that you're all still arguing over the same things you were before I posted all of that.

    If I were to take out a whole page in the New York Times to say the same things I said here, I doubt that it would change the national conversation, because 1) most Americans don't give a rat's ass about transgenderism, and 2) the ones who do seem to have their minds made up.

    Maybe eventually Americans will be more reasonable about TG issues. We all saw that happen with homosexuality. After all, it wasn't that many years ago that powerful liberals like Barack Obama were opposed to same-sex marriage. Now, even most Republicans support it.

    So there is hope. It just needs time to take its course.

    In the meantime, though, I will continue to use the lady's room even where it's verboten, as I wouldn't feel safe in the men's room.







  3. by oldedude on May 20, 2023 6:17 pm
    Thanks for that post. I appreciate it.


  4. by HatetheSwamp on May 21, 2023 4:32 am

    "I don't think they appreciate all the negative unintended consequences that these new policies could bring. This doesn't mean they're bad people. It just means we need to have a better conversation." -Hunter

    I agree.

    A couple of months ago, Donna alluded to all the "anti-trans" bills being considered across the nation just in 023. She described many of them as, "fascistic and disgusting." That comment launched my ongoing spate of threads on the topic.

    From the beginning, my assertion is that, for the most part, the TQ community's response has been hate rhetoric...which gives no one rationale to take the TQ community's side.

    You're right. Few of the TQs I've encountered are bad people. Many, I think, are hedonists. Some are narcissists. Still, mostly what you get from them in these debates is expressions of rage.

    But, they're not bad people. Many seem to want to live their preferred life...but without reference to others. When people oppose them, they take it personally, feel oppressed, and become angry.


  5. by HatetheSwamp on May 21, 2023 4:46 am

    Good post, Donna, as usual.

    Still, when I read about the passage of these laws, many of which are, in your opinion, "fascistic and disgusting," even in legislative debate, the opposition is, essentially, unbridled hate rhetoric.

    If your side wants us to move beyond the misinformation about transgenderism, it's up to you to lead that conversation.

    People don't want to preserve the sanctity of public restrooms because they hate trans people. Women simply don't want males in the ladies'.

    Parents simply want to teach their own values to their own young children without TQ proselytizing from people on the staff of public schools. They don't fight for their RIGHT to parent because they hate you.

    Hunter is right. Offer reasonable alternatives. Make rational, practical arguments. Following po's "MAGA Republican" "Christian theocrats" hate rhetoric hurts you. It doesn't help. And, based on what I read and see, po's typical.


  6. by Ponderer on May 21, 2023 5:06 am

    The funny thing is that most women have probably already unwittingly shared a lady's restroom with a transwoman. We as a group have been using lady's restrooms for decades, usually without anyone knowing we're transgender.

    Here's what's going to happen: Very few transwomen are going to abide by Flarda's ridiculous new restroom laws, and eventually the controversy will fall by the wayside. But the law will have served its purpose, which is political.

    "If your side wants us to move beyond the misinformation about transgenderism, it's up to you to lead that conversation."

    In addition to the complexity of the issue, the politicization of transgenderism (both sides) has made having a rational national conversation impossible.

    IMO only time will resolve this, as it did with homosexuality.






  7. by oldedude on May 21, 2023 5:30 am
    The funny thing is that most women have probably already unwittingly shared a lady's restroom with a transwoman. We as a group have been using lady's restrooms for decades, usually without anyone knowing we're transgender.

    The same thing with working with, getting help by, have a boss that's, the list goes on. Again, my thought is like the signs that say, "no concealed firearms in this establishment." That's stoopid. If it's concealed, who knows? It's just a stoopid sign. And if it's a trans male in the mens? I don't care. I'm not checking. Not my business.

    That all said. My thing is to protect the parents right to know what is going on with they're kid, and keeping the kids safe.

    I just saw an article where a teacher is taken to task because the teacher is gay and has a picture of him and his husband on his desk. Some parent made an issue about it. My view? Get real. This is nothing more than oversensitivity on the other side. I personally wouldn't have any pictures of my family. He did. Get a life. I don't know what grade this was in, but he wasn't accused of "teaching" anything about his lifestyle, no "indoctrination" or anything like that. He was teaching art.


  8. by HatetheSwamp on May 21, 2023 5:43 am

    The funny thing is that most women have probably already unwittingly shared a lady's restroom with a transwoman...

    This is where 28's argument comes into play. If the advocates of the trans political agenda have their way, all any biological males would have to do to enter the ladies' is to proclaim, "It's okay. I'm trans."

    That's not acceptable to the people who are writing the so-called anti-trans bills. It never will be.


  9. by Ponderer on May 21, 2023 6:03 am

    "If the advocates of the trans political agenda have their way, all any biological males would have to do to enter the ladies' is to proclaim, "It's okay. I'm trans.""

    LOL! Actually what will happen in almost all cases is what has already been happening for many decades: biological males, such as myself, will simply use the restroom and leave, and no one will notice.



  10. by HatetheSwamp on May 21, 2023 6:10 am

    po,

    If that's your argument against the laws being passed in many states by your so-called "fascistic and disgusting" "MAGA Republican" "Christian theocrats," your trans political agenda will continue to lose ground.

    That's what I've been saying from beginning...

    And, it's 28's point.

    You can lose and be sanctimonious if you like. I'd advise you to be constructive.


  11. by Ponderer on May 21, 2023 6:44 am

    What I've posted isn't my argument against those laws being passed; it was to show how ridiculous and in most cases unenforceable they are. Actually I want the Ron DeSantises to pass as many ridiculous, unenforceable laws as they want.



  12. by HatetheSwamp on May 21, 2023 7:00 am

    Curious, po.

    So, you're happy to see the enforcement of the laws being pushed by those "fascistic and disgusting" MAGA Republican" "Christian theocrats" and the anti-TQ LGBs.

    Sorry. That wasn't my impression.


  13. by Ponderer on May 21, 2023 7:38 am

    I'm talking about restroom laws. Laws against gender-affirming care for minors is a different story altogether. A rise in suicides will certainly result from imposing them on families, and there will be lawsuits.


  14. by HatetheSwamp on May 21, 2023 7:49 am

    I'd love to see reliable data on the suicide thing. When I read the anti-TQ, especially, activists, they're constantly mocking that claim. As I've said, many of them are bonkers. I even unfollowed one on Twitter.

    If your assertion is true and were it presented constructively, my guess is that the laws being passed would not be as draconian.


  15. by Hunter28 on May 21, 2023 12:51 pm

    Ponderer wrote:

    The funny thing is that most women have probably already unwittingly shared a lady's restroom with a transwoman.


    No, that is not the "funny thing." It is the crucial thing.

    We have cultural norms, if not laws in some places, that allow only females in female restrooms. These norms are what keep males out of these restrooms, including male sexual predators.

    One important thing that a lot of well-meaning liberals don't understand: You may be a biological male, but you don't have to present yourself as a typical female to identify as female gender (or gender fluid). You don't have to wear dresses, makeup, wigs or high heels. You can be born with a male reproductive system, take no hormones, undergo no surgery, wear traditional male clothes, look like a typical male, and still identify as female. And people who fit that description are demanding access to women's restrooms. Are we going to give that person, male in sex and by all appearances, access to women-only spaces?

    I say No.

    Once you allow any person who claims to identify as the female gender (regardless of their current biological sex) into women's only spaces, you eliminate that norm. If all you have to do is say your gender is female, any male (including any sexual predator) can legally enter a women's restroom. That barrier no longer exists. They don't have to wear a dress. They don't have to provide any visual cues. All they have to say is, "I identify as a woman." How can you prove them wrong?

    Don't think this will happen? Sure it will. It already has. Google the phrase "Wi Spa Controversy." I'll provide a link to the Wikipedia page (probably the most neutral source available), as well as a link to an article from a conservative (and admittedly biased) news source that provide more details.

    Some folks in the trans community say a bearded-person with a penis has the right to go into a female-only space. I don't agree. You have to draw the line somewhere. For now, the most reasonable yardstick is to ignore gender identity and draw the line at biological sex. If you have a penis you go in the male spaces. If you have a vagina, you go can go into the female spaces. If there's any ambiguity, find a single-person or unisex restroom.

    And that's one of the interesting things. At the Wi Spa, they had three areas -- A clothed (bathing suit) area that anyone could use, and nude-areas for either sex. But California law says that it's gender and not sex that determines which nude area a person can choose to attend. So even if you have a beard and a penis, you can get naked with the biological women.

    Now getting back to Ponderer's initial comment. We should make it difficult for men to use women's restrooms. The fact that you, as a trans woman, could go into one without anyone noticing suggests you're not much of a threat. I'm worried about the people who are threats.

    I personally don't have any problem with a person who has surgically transitioned using the restroom of their new gender identify. I don't see them as a threat. And that's something we can discuss as a culture. It's also something that biological women need to consent to.

    en.wikipedia.org
    dailymail.co.uk


  16. by Hunter28 on May 21, 2023 1:22 pm
    H
    atetheSwamp wrote:

    I'd love to see reliable data on the suicide thing.


    As would I. There are two things I hear repeatedly from trans advocates -- there are a lot of suicides among gender dysphoric teens who can't transition, and very few who make the surgical transition at a young age regret it. I'm skeptical. I'd like to see data.

    Yes, there have been a couple studies that suggest those gender dysphoric kids have higher suicide rates. But is that due to them being unhappy with their bodies, or are they also dealing with other issues that cannot be resolved with hormones and surgery? I've seen that gender dysphoria may be linked to autism in some cases. Is there any data supporting that?

    Gender clinics don't have much incentive to track folks who regret their transition, surgical or otherwise. Those who regret may not be willing to come forward out of shame or embarrassment. Where's the data? Why isn't there a requirement that they track former patients.

    It's odd that a lot of folks on the left, who are otherwise skeptical about the medical establishment and pharmaceutical industry, are otherwise willing to give gender clinics a pass on accountability.


  17. by Curt_Anderson on May 21, 2023 2:03 pm
    "We have cultural norms, if not laws in some places, that allow only females in female restrooms. These norms are what keep males out of these restrooms, including male sexual predators." --Hunter28

    Hunter et al,
    I know that in the men's rooms the guy in the next urinal could possibly glance at my genitalia.

    I assume that women have private toilet stalls so there isn't any exposure of genitalia in women's rooms. If I am right, does it really matter what a person's gender or gender identity is?

    I suppose there is an argument that a lone cis women in the ladies' lavatory could be attacked my a trans women with male genitalia. But is that a greater risk than a women being sexually assaulted by a man in an upscale department store dressing room?


  18. by HatetheSwamp on May 21, 2023 2:16 pm

    Ahhhhhhhhhhh,

    Trump Trump Trump Trump
    Trump Trump Trump Trump
    Trump Trump Trump Trump...TRUMP!

    Baha baha bahahahahahahahahahaha baha.

    Somehow it always comes down to OrangeMan.


  19. by Hunter28 on May 21, 2023 2:22 pm

    Curt_Anderson wrote:

    I suppose there is an argument that a lone cis women in the ladies' lavatory could be attacked my a trans women with male genitalia. But is that a greater risk than a women being sexually assaulted by a man in an upscale department store dressing room?


    Fortunately, I am not qualified to respond to that question. I am not a female by birth and I have never been sexually assaulted. Nor, I hope, has anyone else in this forum. This is a question you should direct to female sexual assault survivors.

    How do they feel about allowing men into women-only spaces such as restrooms, spas, locker rooms and dressing rooms? Why have any female restrooms at all?

    With all due respect, it's a bit sexist for any biological male to suggest what women should or shouldn't accept where their safety is concerned.


  20. by Curt_Anderson on May 21, 2023 2:39 pm
    Hunter,
    Many---maybe most---of the public restrooms here in Ashland are unisex. They are one person at a time bathrooms. Our home bathrooms are unisex.

    In more populated places, the restrooms are divided by gender. Is the assault and/or embarrassment risk between women's toilet stalls (in a populated place) and the sinks really unacceptable?

    Unless somebody in the women's room is urinating standing up, how would anybody know about their anatomical construction?


  21. by HatetheSwamp on May 21, 2023 3:24 pm

    With all due respect, it's a bit sexist for any biological male to suggest what women should or shouldn't accept where their safety is concerned.

    Curt can be that way, profoundly insensitive to people in a position of weakness...if it serves the needs of a political group with which he identifies.

    It should be no surprise that traditional feminists are siding against the trans political agenda. The trans political agenda supports oppression of organic women.


  22. by Curt_Anderson on May 21, 2023 3:54 pm
    "Curt can be that way, profoundly insensitive to people in a position of weakness...if it serves the needs of a political group with which he identifies." ---HtS

    So says the guy who disagrees with the decision of the Trump sexual assault/defamation trial jury...apparently because it doesn't serve the needs of the political group with which he identifies.


  23. by Hunter28 on May 21, 2023 4:14 pm

    Curt Anderson:

    You seem to be under the impression that rape is the only sex crime. That is not the case.

    There is indecent exposure, molesting, groping, public masturbation, walking in front of a restroom stall with a camera and selfie stick taking upskirt photos. Or you could just stand in front of a stall hold a camera up and take photos of whomever is in a stall. Since women generally have to remove or lower their pants, skirt or underwear, it's not like they can just bolt out the door and confront this person.

    These are just a few things that instantly come to mind. You might speak with a vice officer if you want to find out all the lurid things that take place in public restrooms. Fortunately, the smaller and more vulnerable sex (again, they have to remove more clothing to urinate) are protected somewhat by merit of having an exclusive restroom. If you allow men into that restroom, they will no longer enjoy those same protections.

    If Google can be believed, it looks like Ashland is a fairly upscale city with low crime. Not every community is that fortunate. Do we really want to make women's restrooms less safe?

    You and I can have this conversation from the safety of a male perspective, where we only have to unzip our fly to take a leak, and we're in and out of a restroom in less than a minute. Don't you think women -- and I don't just mean millennial Twitter users -- should have a say in this?


  24. by Ponderer on May 21, 2023 4:19 pm

    Donna speaking.

    Hunter, one key requirement for SRS (sex reassignment surgery) is that you must first live full-time for one year as a member of the new sex before even being considered for SRS. For a transwoman, that means using the lady's restroom. I suppose they could be issued cards, but the anti-TG crowd isn't going to accept that.

    How do you propose that your anti-dick law be enforced? By posting a restroom cop at every public restroom who has the authority to make a suspected dick-bearer strip down?

    There are some cis women (naturally born women) who look masculine. There are cases where masculine-looking women have been humiliated by other women who suspected they were men. I just read about a case like that a few days ago. The security cop was called to the restroom. I can't imagine how humiliating that must have been for that woman.

    These new restroom laws aren't going to stop someone intent on assaulting a woman inside of the restroom anyhow. The only solution I can see to make 100%
    that no one will ever be assaulted in a public restroom is to convert them all to single-person facilities.




  25. by Curt_Anderson on May 21, 2023 4:44 pm
    HtS, Hunter and OD seem to be advocating that women's restrooms to be penis-free zones.

    It reminds me of gun-free zones which I also think are impractical and ridiculous for similar reasons. People who are inclined to misuse their gun or penis to inflict harm upon, intimidate or threaten others are disinclined to respect signage and laws.


  26. by Hunter28 on May 21, 2023 4:48 pm
    Ponderer wrote:

    These new restroom laws aren't going to stop someone intent on assaulting a woman inside of the restroom anyhow.

    I disagree and for reasons that I have said multiple times in this forum. We have cultural norms that make it unlikely any men would go into women's restrooms. At this time, men entering a women-only restroom can expect to be stared at and yelled at. You yourself mentioned police being called because someone looks masculine. THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT WE WANT TO HAPPEN. That is the cultural norm that prevents men from going into women's restrooms and other women's spaces. That's how we keep women safe from sexual predators.

    Removing those norms, allowing anyone who claims to identify as female to enter those spaces, makes it easier for male sexual predators to commit sex crimes.


    How do you propose that your anti-dick law be enforced?

    You already provided the answer to that question: I just read about a case like that a few days ago. The security cop was called to the restroom.

    Knowing that is a real possibility is what keeps male sexual predators out of women's spaces.


    I suppose they could be issued cards, but the anti-TG crowd isn't going to accept that.

    Maybe. Or use a unisex or single-occupancy restroom.


  27. by Hunter28 on May 21, 2023 5:00 pm
    Curt_Anderson wrote:

    HtS, Hunter and OD seem to be advocating that women's restrooms to be penis-free zones.

    You catch on fast.


    It reminds me of gun-free zones which I also think are impractical and ridiculous for similar reasons.

    So you're OK with allowing guns on airplanes, in courtrooms, in schools?

    Do you know the first sign that someone might shoot a gun? They're carrying a gun. Don't want someone to hijack a plane, don't let them carry a gun on a plane.

    About 97 percent of sex crimes are committed by men, mostly against women. Don't want sex crimes in women's restrooms? Don't let men inside. Currently, they are not. That's because we have cultural norms that prevent most men from going into women's restrooms.


    People who are inclined to misuse their gun or penis to inflict harm upon, intimidate or threaten others are disinclined to respect signage and laws.

    Correct. You know what motivates them -- NOT GETTING CAUGHT. You don't see many sexual predators entering women's restrooms because they know if any females see a male person, those women will call the cops. But if you change the rules and allow any male (who claims to identify as a woman) to enter a women-only space, he has access and it's much easier to commit a sex crime.

    Again -- Don't you think women have a better perspective on this than you? Or do you know better than them?


  28. by Curt_Anderson on May 21, 2023 5:50 pm
    Hunter asks me some questions:

    So you're OK with allowing guns on airplanes, in courtrooms, in schools?


    No, I am not. Guns should not be on planes, in courtrooms or in schools. To get on a plane you need to go through a body scanner. I believe it's the same for most courtrooms and some schools. School kids cannot carry a gun legally nor can adults enter schools carrying a gun, but we all sadly know how those laws are ignored by those with evil intent.

    Do you want women to undergo a search to be sure they are not packing (a penis) upon entering a restroom? We have laws against carrying guns in certain places but we enforce those laws with metal detectors or some sort of inspections. The gun free zones I referred to are merely "enforced" with signage.

    You know what motivates them [sexual predators] -- NOT GETTING CAUGHT.

    Given their rate of recidivism, sexual predators are motivated more by their compulsions which overrides their fear of getting caught. So unless you want to back up the penis-free zones with some sort of inspection, I don't see male perverts being dissuaded from entering the ladies room.

    Again -- Don't you think women have a better perspective on this than you? Or do you know better than them?

    I didn't know that women had reached a consensus on this issue. Link? I merely asked if the distance between the private toilet stalls and sinks poses an unacceptable risk. On more than one occasion I've seen women use men's rooms when the line to the women's room was too long. So not all women are insistent upon segregated restrooms. Regardless of the majority or minority women's perspectives, it has to be rational and fair.


  29. by Hunter28 on May 21, 2023 7:35 pm
    Curt_Anderson wrote:

    Do you want women to undergo a search to be sure they are not packing (a penis) upon entering a restroom? We have laws against carrying guns in certain places but we enforce those laws with metal detectors or some sort of inspections.


    It feels like I've already addressed this question about a half dozen times today. I'll try again.

    First, I'm not asking for any new law. I am simply asking that we continue to direct women to go to women's restrooms, and men to go to men's restrooms. The key criteria for determining one or the other is biological sex, not psychological gender -- as is the long-standing custom in just about every country on the planet.

    Do we have security guards at every restroom right now? No. We don't need them. And that's because we have cultural norms whereby men simply do not go into women's restrooms. If they do, Karen will march into action. Stares will be cast. Screams will be issued. Phones will be dialed. Police will be summoned.

    But if we allow any man who self-identifies as female to enter a women's restroom (and other female-only spaces), sexual predators will exploit that opening and women will be vulnerable to a variety of sex crimes.


    Go unless you want to back up the penis-free zones with some sort of inspection, I don't see male perverts being dissuaded from entering the ladies room.

    They are already dissuaded from entering women's restrooms by cultural norms. We don't see men going into women's room because it is not allowed and there's a huge risk. But if you remove that ban and remove the risk, they will have ample opportunity to commit sex crimes in these spaces.


    I didn't know that women had reached a consensus on this issue. Link?

    Precisely. Thus the need for a cultural conversation before we start passing new laws.


    Regardless of the majority or minority women's perspectives, it has to be rational and fair.

    Which it already is. Men go to the men's restroom, women go to the women's restroom. What's the easiest way to determine who is male or female? Biological sex. If you try to go into the wrong restroom, be prepared to explain yourself to the police. Simple, rational and fair. Also has survived the test of time.


  30. by Curt_Anderson on May 21, 2023 8:09 pm
    "First, I'm not asking for any new law. I am simply asking that we continue to direct women to go to women's restrooms, and men to go to men's restrooms." ---Hunter

    Ok, I am good with status quo. I am not suggesting that non-trans men be suddenly granted all-access to the women's room. But if a person looks like a woman and walks like woman then they shouldn't be questioned about their bathroom choice.

    "They are already dissuaded from entering women's restrooms by cultural norms. We don't see men going into women's room because it is not allowed and there's a huge risk." ---Hunter

    We don't see it because we don't know it. Are you really sure that you can always recognize a trans woman from a cis woman? There are some rather manly looking biological women. What anybody would notice is if a person enters a restroom who doesn't match the outward appearance of their gender.



  31. by HatetheSwamp on May 22, 2023 3:44 am

    The key criteria for determining one or the other is biological sex, not psychological gender -- as is the long-standing custom in just about every country on the planet. Hunter

    Bingo.

    I mentioned that Donna sparked my spate of trans political agenda threads by suggesting that many laws being proposed to protect parents' rights to raise their children without governmental intrusion as "fascistic and disgusting." I take umbrage to that suggestion.

    About that time, Donna also opined that trans ideology is gaining increasing acceptance. It ain't. Even in the US.

    28 is bang on. What seems to be so mystifying to you trans people and trans-philes "is the long-standing custom in just about every country on the planet."

    You people are crazy. To think people can't live the way they have lived contentedly for centuries everywhere is insane. It denies history. It defies common sense. What you want ain't happnin.

    Sooner or later, one of these bathroom laws is going to be enforced when a trans person defies the law. Here's what's going to happen. Trans people and trans-philes will be outraged...and the overwhelming majority will applaud.

    You are wrong. Period.

    To quote one of the best known of a movie lines, "I'm mad as hell I'm not going to take it anymore!" Tens of millions in this country and b-b-b-b-billions across the world join me.

    Hunter is right that if you supporters of the trans political agenda want your way, you're going to have to propose practical ways acceptable to almost everyone else. We ain't gunna kowtow any more.

    Suggesting, as Donna does, what's always been can't be enforced ain't workin. It won't work.


  32. by islander on May 22, 2023 5:34 am
    Hunter28,
    There have been proposals put forth here on SS suggesting how we can begin working toward an equitable solution to the problem of public restrooms and what we can do to alleviate the fears of those people who feel uncomfortable with a transgender female using the same bathroom that they use.

    Some of these were to make unisex or family restrooms available where there are separate men’s and woman’s restrooms just like handicap stalls are required.

    If a person is in transition a medical id card could be issued to that person.

    All restrooms should have locking private stalls.

    Many places have laws making it illegal for someone of the opposite sex to enter a men’s or woman’s public restrooms. This could be modified to allow transgenders to use the restroom that matches their gender.

    The fear of allowing transgender females into a woman’s public restroom because a straight male can dress up like a woman, go into a woman’s restroom and rape and assault a woman in there, I think, is intentionally exaggerated in an attempt to discriminate against transpeople.

    Why would a public restroom even be an attractive choice for a rapist?

    Why would a predator dress up like a female or pretend to be a trans in order to assault a woman in a public rest room?

    Public restrooms usually have people constantly coming in and out of them and they are in a public area with plenty of other people around, like airports, malls, restaurants, etc.

    If the predator were to attempt to assault a woman in a public restroom it would only make sense that the woman be alone in there and no one else around in which case there’d be no need to dress like a woman or try to impersonate a female transgender.

    This is going to take time as it will require a cultural change as well, just like the acceptance of gays and gay marriage took time required a cultural change. Cultures, fortunately are not static.






  33. by HatetheSwamp on May 22, 2023 6:13 am

    isle,

    The fear of allowing transgender females into a woman’s public restroom because a straight male can dress up like a woman, go into a woman’s restroom and rape and assault a woman in there, I think, is intentionally exaggerated in an attempt to discriminate against transpeople.

    Honestly, bubba, a man saying this has limited credibility and impact. This is waaaaaaay too easy for you to say.

    My wife has always preferred to have another woman accompany her when she's entered a public restroom at a time when she might be there alone. She's accompanied friends under the same circumstances.

    As I've said, it's true that reasonable proposals have been offered here on SS. The point is that even your beloved transequality.org is adamant in supporting biological males using women's public restrooms. The big issue is that the people who run the trans political agenda are unreasonable.


  34. by Ponderer on May 22, 2023 8:48 am

    Actual Ponderer here. This is my first post on this thread.

    Curt, would you be so kind as to email Donna a new password so that she can sign on as Donna again? Thanks.


    What I see coming from Hate and Hunter and od on this matter is precious little concern for the actual and dangerous repercussions to many in my community, weighed against the apoplexy of concern over hypothetical scenarios and unwarranted paranoia that might make some woman feel... uncomfortable.


    Okay. So let's say that a bathroom law like the one that DeSantis is trying to get through goes federal. Let's say it is now illegal for anyone in the country to use any public bathroom designated for the sex that they were not born as.

    SCENARIO #1:
    A fully transitioned, but pre-operative, trans woman breaks the law and goes into a women's public restroom in a desperate need to relieve herself. In there, she decides to expose her penis to another woman.

    SCENARIO #2:
    A trans woman, fully cooperating with the law, is forced to use a public men's room in desperate need to relieve herself. In there, she is confronted my a couple of drunken men who she has just outed herself to simply by the fact that she had to be in there, and they proceed to beat the livingshit out of her.



    Let's see how many of you can guess which one of these scenarios has, by a great many factors, a far greater likelihood of occurring.



    Other than Isle and Curt, it doesn't seem that the rest of you give a flyingfuck about how this ends up affecting those in my community. To you, protecting someone with an irrational fear of trans women doing something they never do is eminently more important than putting trans women into literal harm's way every time they need to use public restroom facilities.


    So what I'm hearing from y'all is:

    • Cis women? Worth protecting from any perceived harm, real or imaginary, at any cost to anyone else!
    • Trans women? Who cares what happens to them. They brought it on themselves for being so "narcissistically hedonistic".


    Hunter, you keep wanting to bring this back to the threat to women from men who have nothing to do with my community. And to protect women from these men, you are in favor of enacting laws that will only affect the safety and lives of those in my community and will in no way whatsoever curtail or stop any of the men you are concerned about from doing what you assert women are terrified of them doing. You keep asserting that a non-trans man can simply claim to be trans and go into a women's room, like it's some sort of Get Out of Jail Free Card for whatever they do in there. That is simply ridiculous. If such a man goes into a women's restroom and commits the crime of flashing or rape whatever else you suggest they might do in there, he has committed a crime. Claiming to be trans will reduce his likelihood of arrest and sentencing by exactly nothing.

    So... you are telling me that when I am out in public, in order to protect cis women from a danger that neither I nor any in my community pose, I must use a men's room where my very life could be in danger every time I need to pee? That this is a sacrifice that you assert I and the rest of my community must make in order to protect cis women from an imaginary threat that we are in no way posing to them?


    How in the name of all that is fair... is that fair? Why must my community suddenly be made into criminals for doing what we have always done for decades with no ill effects? Why must we instead be in constant risk of our lives when we need to relieve ourselves in public because of something we are not doing?


    When you make trans women going into women's rooms criminal because they have penises, only criminals with penises will go into women's rooms.






  35. by Curt_Anderson on May 22, 2023 9:00 am
    “Curt, would you be so kind as to email Donna a new password so that she can sign on as Donna again? Thanks.” —Ponderer

    Have Donna click the orange help button at the top of his page. The instructions explain how a password can be reset


  36. by Ponderer on May 22, 2023 9:09 am

    "Few of the TQs I've encountered are bad people. Many, I think, are hedonists. Some are narcissists." -Hate

    The fact that you believe that many of us are narcissists and hedonists speaks volumes to your vast, encyclopedic ignorance of my community and the subject of gender dysphoria. You simply don't know whatthefuck you are talking about.

    "Still, mostly what you get from them in these debates is expressions of rage." -Hate

    In debates about heinous and unconstitutional laws being foisted on us that will destroy many of our lives while making us third class citizens, I am terribly sorry for any harm to your delicate constitution that results from us responding like any group of human beings would to being so egregiously repressed.


  37. by HatetheSwamp on May 22, 2023 9:47 am

    Other than Isle and Curt, it doesn't seem that the rest of you give a flyingfuck about how this ends up affecting those in my community.

    HOW CAN YOU SUGGEST THAT?

    pb and especially 28 are begging you and the influential advocates of the trans political agenda to offer practical recommendations. Please!

    But, no. You engage in hate rhetoric and name-calling. You need to win friends and influence people. You don't even try.

    See link for the most intelligent argument I have found against pro mommy and daddy and nanna and pappap legislation.

    View Video


  38. by Ponderer on May 22, 2023 9:56 am

    Bill, if you could find your way clear to not imposing responsibility on me for what millions of others in my community think or say, that'd be great.



  39. by Ponderer on May 22, 2023 10:02 am

    "HOW CAN YOU SUGGEST THAT?" -Hate

    So... you don't agree with that video that you posted a link to...? You don't think we matter? You don't think we belong here? You don't need us trans people?



  40. by HatetheSwamp on May 22, 2023 10:04 am

    po,

    No one I know of wants you to suffer needlessly. But, face it. You are the author of your own destiny.

    It's clear. The more you b!tch and moan and call names, the worse your plight becomes.


  41. by Curt_Anderson on May 22, 2023 10:12 am
    “ pb and especially 28 are begging you and the influential advocates of the trans political agenda to offer practical recommendations. Please!” —HtS

    Recommendations to solve what problem? I and others here agree that trans women who have gone through puberty as a male should be excluded from female athletic competition. The bathroom access issue is a “problem” greatly exaggerated and fear mongered by conservatives. We don’t need penis-free zones any more than we need whites only bathrooms.


  42. by Ponderer on May 22, 2023 10:59 am

    "No one I know of wants you to suffer needlessly." -Hate

    I know that. You don't want us to suffer needlessly.

    You want us to suffer over a need you and others here have for us to be relegated to second or third class status in our society.

    There is a need for us to suffer. It's just not coming from us. It's a need that the MAGA Republicans and their brainwashed throng have.

    Short of eradicating us from all civil life altogether.


  43. by Donna on May 22, 2023 11:13 am

    As I said on another topic thread, all I can do is voice my opinions.

    I agree, Curt. I'm just as vulnerable as other women are in public restrooms, and I've never had any concerns about being assaulted or raped in a women's restroom or for that matter, anywhere. I doubt if many women do.

    Forcing transwomen to use men's restrooms puts them in much more danger because as my wife Ponderer said, it forces them to out themselves as transgender in front of men who are complete strangers.

    So while well intended, these draconian restroom laws actually create a much more dangerous situation. For transwomen. If you've never thought about this, then maybe, as islander suggested, your problem isn't really with penises in women's restrooms, but with transgender people in general.


  44. by islander on May 22, 2023 12:52 pm

    The rest of us have given very good suggestions with regard to alleviating any fear some might have that a straight male might try to impersonate a trans female and molest a female in a public restroom.

    I have a wife, two daughters, 6 grown grand daughters and we frequently discuss these issues. Not a single one expressed any fear whatsoever of a trans female sexually assaulting them in a public restroom. What they are prudently cautious about is going into an isolated restroom, alone, with no other people around. And that has nothing whatsoever to do transgenders.

    Like I asked before,



    1.Why would a public restroom even be an attractive choice for a rapist?

    2. Why would a predator dress up like a female or pretend to be a trans in order to assault a woman in a public rest room?

    It would be foolish of the to do so since public restrooms usually have people constantly coming in and out of them and they are in a public area with plenty of other people around, like airports, malls, restaurants, etc.

    If the predator were to attempt to assault a woman in a public restroom it would only make sense that the woman be alone in there and no one else around, in which case there’d be no need for a predator to dress like a woman or try to impersonate a female transgender.



  45. by Donna on May 22, 2023 3:13 pm

    Exactly, islander.


  46. by Curt_Anderson on May 22, 2023 3:23 pm
    Where does sexual assault of women occur?
    48% were sleeping, or performing another activity at home
    29% were traveling to and from work or school, or traveling to shop or run errands
    12% were working
    7% were attending school
    5% were doing an unknown or other activity

    I don't see women's restrooms on that list.
    rainn.org


  47. by HatetheSwamp on May 23, 2023 5:09 am

    "Recommendations to solve what problem? I and others here agree that trans women who have gone through puberty as a male should be excluded from female athletic competition. The bathroom access issue is a “problem” greatly exaggerated and fear mongered by conservatives." Curt

    Ahhhhhhhhhhh, yeah. Progressive sanctimony.

    I can guaran-d@ng-tee you. In a "democracy" that's not a winning argument. Telling people who disagree with you, YOU'RE WRONG, and judgmentally at that, won't convince anyone.

    In other threads, pb points out that the un-woke anti-TQ LGB leaders, the groups and activists, agree with po's "fascistic and disgusting" "MAGA Republican" "Christian theocrats" on bathrooms and sports and, especially, public school groomers.

    And, that's the point.

    Fine. The half dozen regular posters on SS agree on biological males competing in women's sports.

    What opponents of the trans political agenda have is mommies and daddies and nannas and pappaps, old-school feminists and LGBs agreeing...from national leadership to the grassroots...in total and public agreement.

    You wanna know why the trans political agenda is declining and...

    ...the anti-TQ LGB movement is exploding in number, and influence? That's why.


  48. by HatetheSwamp on May 23, 2023 5:20 am

    "So, while well intended, these draconian restroom laws actually create a much more dangerous situation. For transwomen. If you've never thought about this, then maybe, as islander suggested, your problem isn't really with penises in women's restrooms, but with transgender people in general." Donna

    Right. Tell people who disagree with you that they're wrong...because they are unenlightened, and, that they're BIGOTS...

    ...in an "of the people, by the people and for the people" "democracy."

    Can you understand why your woke trans political agenda is declining!!!!!?

    I've noted several times, that I'm following the legislative debates over these bills. All I see from supporters of the trans political agenda is violence and stunts and, I hear lots of hate rhetoric not much different than accusations of "fascistic and disgusting" and "MAGA Republican" "Christian theocrats."

    Your side is losing for an easily understood reason.


  49. by Donna on May 23, 2023 9:43 am

    Noted.


  50. by Curt_Anderson on May 23, 2023 10:10 am
    "Recommendations to solve what problem? I and others here agree that trans women who have gone through puberty as a male should be excluded from female athletic competition. The bathroom access issue is a “problem” greatly exaggerated and fear mongered by conservatives." Curt

    HtS’s response:
    “Progressive sanctimony.” I’ll summarize the rest. HtS cannot identify any problems that no-penis zone bathrooms solve. But he wants us to know we should not say he and Ilk are wrong, unenlightened or bigots.


  51. by HatetheSwamp on May 23, 2023 10:32 am

    Oooooooooo. Apparently, ol pb touched a nerve there.


  52. by Curt_Anderson on May 23, 2023 10:35 am
    Yes, you touched your own nerve.


  53. by islander on May 23, 2023 2:48 pm

    The anger and frustration expressed by many trans toward some
    religious transphobes is due, I think righteously, to the fact that they condemn transsexuals and treat them as sinners. They can sanctimoniously do this because they believe that their religious teachings justify their actions and condemnations toward and about transsexuals, since, according to them, transsexuals are intentional self made mistakes acting in defiance of (their) God who doesn’t make mistakes and who Himself condemns what transsexuals have done and become.

    " Many people who identify as transgender feel “victimized” by such Christians" *

    * Click link

    saintjohnchurch.org


  54. by HatetheSwamp on May 24, 2023 4:45 am

    isle,

    In my opinion, you mischaracterized the article.

    You were raised Catholic. "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." They taught you that, didn't they?

    Trans theology and Abrahamic Religions? That's a tough...nigh unto impossible...task.

    I, actually, appreciate the article's attempt to take trans theology seriously...a difficult task.

    Try this:

    At age 7, both and Matt and Gina felt like born killers whose greatest desire was to procure an AR15, walk into a McDonald's and fire away.

    Matt struggled against his instinct to believe God created him to mass murder. He believed in God's love. He fought himself daily to be holy.

    Gina also struggled. The core desire to murder didn't go away. Eventually, Gina decided to live her core desire, found a gun and drove to McDonald's. She not only felt like a murderer, she chose to live murder.

    Clearly, being born thinking and desiring something at odds with God's plan creates tension when you're taught that you are the creation of a God who is omnipotent and omniscient. It's how you choose to live that's the only thing that matters.

    According to the Gospels, Jesus's ongoing message, to everyone, from to end, was, "The time has come, the Kingdom of God is at hand. Repent and believe in Good News." He said that to people He'd never met. To everyone. Born murderers. And, people who believe they were born in the wrong body. Even people who wanted to steal their neighbor's new fishing net.

    Everyone..."all have sinned." No exceptions.


  55. by islander on May 24, 2023 5:06 am

    Hate doesn’t realize it but he has unwittingly proved my point as to why many people who identify as transgender feel “victimized” by such Christians...


  56. by HatetheSwamp on May 24, 2023 6:04 am

    Huh, isle!!!!!?

    No. pb gets that. And, it would be possible that our mass murderer, Gina, could choose to feel victimized bb Christians, too. That doesn't justify her murderous BEHAVIOR.

    Trust me. Any person born trans who goes to the guy who wrote the article and asks for mentoring in a lifestyle of obedience will be welcomed and embraced.

    And, that bothers you?


  57. by islander on May 24, 2023 7:32 am

    Hate still doesn’t get it... 



    According to what Hate is telling us, both in his mind and in the mind of many Christians, Ponderer and Donna are just like the murderer, the one that chose to murder. Such people, because of what they have been taught, assume that what Ponderer and Donna are doing is wrong and sinful, and they will deservedly be damned to hell by a God for all eternity if they continue to live their disordered and sinful lives as transgenders. And they will try to make it as difficult as they can for Ponderer and Donna to practice their sinful ways...However...To let Ponderer and Donna know how wonderful and forgiving they are, if they repent and turn from their evil ways, like Hate says, then they can be forgiven and saved from what they deserve, “everlasting suffering”!

    That reeks with condescension and sanctimony. If a religious group tried to tell me the same thing about the way my wife and I are living our lives, I’d feel just as angry as Ponderer and Donna.


  58. by HatetheSwamp on May 24, 2023 7:50 am

    isle.

    You're not this STUPID.

    That's why I started with the Romans thing. "ALL have sinned." That's why I ended with stealing the neighbor's new fishing net then with,...

    "Everyone..."all have sinned." No exceptions."

    That you want to canonize trans-ism is extremely curious.


  59. by Ponderer on May 24, 2023 8:59 am

    Isle, I have resigned myself to the fact that I will not be entering the Kingdom of Heaven for going on thirty years now.

    What in the world was I thinking when I got that tattoo???
    biblegateway.com


  60. by HatetheSwamp on May 24, 2023 9:46 am

    Orthodox Jew, are ya? Baha baha.


  61. by Donna on May 24, 2023 10:32 am

    On what basis do they consider transitioning a sin? Any ideas?


  62. by oldedude on May 24, 2023 10:57 am
    Like I've said before many times. This is a core issue on both sides. What has to be done is to see where anyone is willing to talk about how to move on.

    What has been put in the "media" is the trans community wants to "kill everyone disagreeing with them. On the other side are those believing it is pure evil. Neither of these is correct for everyone. So arguing about it is dumb.

    So that's the start point.
    What I understand is that although it's still a core issue for Donna (rightfully so), she is willing to talk and negotiate. I, on the other hand am a Christian. My understanding and life experiences is as I've said many times. I'm willing to negotiate.

    We both have things that are steadfast (read not too negotiable) in the talks. Fine. As long as we understand that about each other. I think there is more room here than hatred. I may believe it's a moral affront to my belief system. But what can I live with. That's where the negotiation comes in.

    A couple of things need to happen BEFORE any negotiations take place.
    1. Both parties MUST, without exception, be willing to negotiate. If one side sits there and says, they're not participating, stand up and leave the table. Don't waste your time.
    2. BOTH sides must be willing to compromise. This means giving up some of the things you want for the process.
    3. Realize "negotiations" by definition, no one is completely happy with the result. The question is, "can I live with that."


  63. by Donna on May 24, 2023 11:02 am

    Thank you for your rational thinking on this, od - not just this post, but others you've made.


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