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Crime by HatetheSwamp     March 1, 2024 6:33 am (Rating: 0.0) Last comment by: HatetheSwamp (15 comments) [121 views]

Weaponry selectors, pages, etc.
Can we protect 2nd Amendment rights while keeping guns out of the hands of bad people?
By Curt_Anderson
April 9, 2023 4:26 pm
Category: Weaponry

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This was something of an aside buried in another thread. I am giving it its own thread to discuss this and possible hear other ideas. ---CA

I am pretty sure there are ways of protecting Second Amendment rights while keeping guns out the hands of bad people.

Can we agree that all gun homicides are bad? While mass shootings get all the attention and news coverage, they are a relatively small portion of gun deaths. There were probably 600 or so gun homicides since that Nashville school shooting. A report issued in May by the gun-control group Everytown for Gun Safety analyzed FBI crime data in 271 American cities, large and small, from 2020 and found that guns stolen from vehicles have become the nation’s largest source of stolen firearms — with an estimated 40,000 guns stolen from cars in those cities alone.

Obviously stolen guns are likely to be used in other crimes. There must be a technological solution to keep guns from accidentally being left in cars. Maybe an app to alert the gun owner their gun is in the car. Maybe an airtag built into the gun.

I heard Ford is working on a car that drives itself back to the dealer if the car owner fails to make payments. After dashboard warnings the car progressively disables features before it drives off. There has to be way to disable a stolen gun.

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Comments on "Can we protect 2nd Amendment rights while keeping guns out of the hands of bad people?":

  1. by oldedude on April 9, 2023 8:36 pm
    I've illustrated how the laws are not enforced. Your "Thought" on how reducing guns will reduce deaths was overturned in clitons' issue with "automatic" weapons (which are, by agreed laws as illegal). Again, what you are forgetting are the tens of hundreds (if not thousands) of black, brown, and yellow people that are murdered by violations of these laws and not charged. This is why "reasonable" people object to these laws.

  2. by HatetheSwamp on April 10, 2023 3:42 am


    We know that the perpetrator of the Nashville Christian Massacre was under care for mental illness. It may well be that that person shouldn't have been able to purchase firearms anyway.

    OD's right. In blue cities, there are a long list of gun laws that are violated and/or uninforced with each violent gun crime... you well know from your faithful Fox News watching, every time progressives call for new gun laws.

    Bahahahahahahahahahaha, ahhhhhhhhhhh.

    There are already many gun laws on the books. Having gun laws is not the problem.

  3. by oldedude on April 10, 2023 5:30 am
    Can we agree that all gun homicides are bad?
    homicides, yes. AND you sheeple include gun deaths by suicide as "homicide." Sheeple include those killed as a result of being found guilty of vicious homicide of several persons are given the death penalty.

    So. back to the case at hand. I have reservations about "constitutional carry."

    In one way, this is the ONLY Amendment that provides for TOTAL EXCLUSION from any encroachment. I agree with the founders on this principle. I need PROOF people are going to violate constitutional grounds. Why? Who? When? Where?

    If some azzhole says they will murder a school. Is that a violation of the constitution? ABSOLUTELY! Why? because it violates soooo many other laws...

    To the question doesn't have the balls to ask (please grow a set). Bad people have guns. ANS: Yes. Q: do bad people kill other people kill good people? ANS: YES.
    WTF do we do?"??????????????? because you're so restricted in your thinking...
    Like in C-Springs. your look at their "manifesto."

  4. by islander on April 10, 2023 5:55 am

    I think, before we are going to be able to make any real progress in reducing the number of gun deaths in our country we’re going to have to change people’s mind set with regard to how they think about guns.

    It can be done, but not overnight. We have seen how we’ve been able to change the mindset of the American people with regard to such things as slavery, domestic abuse, the treatment of and the way we view indigenous people here and around the world, etc.

    First we have to get people to feel that the number of gun deaths is important enough to want to do something about it. Then we need to get people to acknowledge that gun laws and enforcing them will reduce the number of gun deaths. Once people understand that we can begin to seriously work on enacting a system of comprehensive gun laws and work on finding out which laws are effective and which are not.

    Buying and owning a gun should be like buying and driving a car and it should be just as well regulated. It is as silly to say that gun laws won’t stop gun deaths as it is to say that our motor vehicle laws won’t stop traffic deaths since we still have about 40,000 deaths a year. Motor vehicle laws can and do substantially reduce, the number of deaths. And that should be the goal of our gun laws. Other countries have shown that this works.

  5. by HatetheSwamp on April 10, 2023 6:55 am

    Okay, buddy. Sit down.

    I agree with you.

    This is one of several issues where true, classic political compromise is possible. Same with immigration.

    Interestingly, the person in my life who's most informed and moderate and wise about gun issues is my brother who is a lifelong hunter, who's owned many guns and has been an NRA member. I doubt he is these days because he's almost as old as am I.

    On Second Amendment issues, he's moderate and open minded...far more than I am. I've never owned a gun...but I am a Bill of Rights guy. My brother actually calms me down on the Second Amendment.

    My point is that, I'm convinced that, at the grassroots level, rational change makes sense. The problem is not with Americans...

    ...the problem is with the SWAMP!

    Am I hopeful? No. I'm HatetheSwamp. I think that the dysfunctional DC political mess is too serious a problem.

    But, I see possibilities.

  6. by Curt_Anderson on April 10, 2023 10:35 am
    As I said, in my opening post of this thread, there are technological steps we can take to reduce gun theft, thereby keeping guns out of their hands of bad people. We can enact laws that won’t trample on Second Amendment rights, but provide for a greater safety for all of society. We have done it before.

    On April 24th, 2006, an amendment to the Gun Control Act became effective. The Child Safety Lock Act of 2005 states that it’s unlawful for “any licensed importer, manufacturer, or dealer to sell, deliver, or transfer any handgun to any person, other than another licensee, unless the transferee (buyer) is provided with a secure gun storage or safety device for that handgun.”

    Simply meaning, if your business sells or transfers handguns, they have to come with a gun storage or safety device.

    What if we put a NASA like effort toward stopping gun theft? Is keeping guns out of the hands of criminals beyond our capabilities? Islander makes a good point when he remarks that traffic laws doing did save lives. Auto manufacturing safety requirements also save lives. We cannot prevent every highway death, but we can reduce them. The same thing can be a set of gun homicides.

  7. by islander on April 10, 2023 1:05 pm

    I think Curt's example of mandatory gun locks is a good example of a firearm regulation that starts with a regulation of the manufacturing and sale of guns.

    In the state of Maine safety gun locks can be obtained free at many police stations and by contacting "Maine Citizens Against Handgun Violence".

    The hardest part of this battle for any gun regulation will still be changing the mindset of the no gun regulations by the government people, since any regulation will be seen as surrendering to the government their absolute right to own firearms and any such regulation is seen as the government infringing on their right to defend themselves. Something they will never allow.

  8. by Curt_Anderson on April 10, 2023 1:54 pm
    That's why I think if it is framed as a way to stop gun THEFTS, that the NRA-types wouldn't automatically object. As I noted, most stolen guns are stolen from cars. I can imagine an app that alerts gun owners if their gun is unsecured/visible in their car.

  9. by oldedude on April 10, 2023 2:53 pm
    You get a gun lock with every new gun you buy. If you want one, I'll send you a dozen. Like isle said, PD's have them routinely. They're one of the most unused thing you can get.

    My first question is: Who do dim gun laws affect? Criminals? No. Legal gun owners? Yes. Responsible gun owners are not the issue. As usual, you're refusing to count inner city crime in the sheeple narrative. What can be done about that is the real question. Second question. why have many dim run cities seen a massive uptick in violent crime? These two questions are hand in hand. They're part of "What Woksters and Progressives are doing!"

    Of course gun haters can't (or won't) look at those issues at all. Because not charging or holding violent criminals has no effect on crime (in their simple minds). That's just stupid and laughable. Why don't you charge the crimes that are on the books?

    isle said that he was "the biggest pro gun guy on this site." and yet he's talking this cr@p. I don't get it.

  10. by Curt_Anderson on April 10, 2023 4:33 pm
    The per capita rate of gun deaths is much higher in red states than in blue states. It is four or five times higher in the richest states compared to the bluest states. See link. Homicides are down more than 14% in New York and violent crime is lower there than it was in 2019. Incidentally, a homicide and violent crime rate is higher per capita in Marjorie Taylor Greene’s district than it is in New York City.

  11. by oldedude on April 10, 2023 5:41 pm
    You need to go by FBI stats. Those are the stats cities use to get federal money. I don't know if they're different, but I severely question anything from the CDC. Also, look up violent crime instead of gun homicides, which include suicides and accidental shootings.

  12. by Curt_Anderson on April 10, 2023 8:52 pm
    Ok, OD, let's use the FBI gun homicide stats. By firearm murders per capita, here are the states in ranked order. You are more likely to be killed with a gun in a red state. For reasons unknown the FBI didn't include Florida. Alabama's data is incomplete: they reported only an improbable three murders.

    South Carolina
    North Carolina
    New Jersey
    New Mexico
    West Virginia
    New York
    Rhode Island
    North Dakota
    South Dakota
    New Hampshire

  13. by oldedude on April 11, 2023 1:46 am
    again, I said "violent crime." But we'll go with that for the sake of... WTFever.

    You say "gun locks" are those the useless POS's they give away now? We are just disagreeing with how to protect 2nd amendment rights. The sheep want ALL gun ownership illegal. If you want that, make those changes in the constitution. The 2nd Amendment is the ONLY one that says, "shall not be infringed."

    I do agree with the original premise in your question to me. bad people should not have guns. How do we do that? Everyone knows here in FL, if you use a gun in a crime, you tag on another 5 years which are included in mandatory time.

    Another piece for FL. Part of those stats are also property owners protecting their families from break-ins. I might argue our Castle doctrine is too open. It includes someone on my property, yelling and making threatening gestures.

    I still use a stricter use of intent and warning. Meaning that I warn the person as they're breaking in. If I feel the person's intent is to still break into my house, they were warned. On 911 tape. Or if I see a weapon as they're breaking in.

    Say I witness a violent personal crime (rape with a weapon, shooting, etc) and shoot the perp. In Denver, NYC, Chicago, LA, Portland, Seattle, all of MA, NJ, etc, I'm arrested for killing the rapist that had a knife to the woman's throat. In FL, I have a right to protect someone else's life. That weighs heavier (which I don't have a problem with) because of "intent" and it's not your life being threatened.

    In both Southern CO, and FL. Most criminal homicides are family members or known to the victim, and drugs are involved (lots of opioids and meth). Surprisingly for the left, hate crimes are generally mass shootings (Orlando, Parkland, Co Springs, etc).

    Sorry, this was long.

  14. by oldedude on April 11, 2023 1:56 am
    ...found that guns stolen from vehicles have become the nation’s largest source of stolen firearms — with an estimated 40,000 guns stolen from cars in those cities alone.

    We've had this discussion before regarding stolen guns. Charging the theft is already a felony from inside a vehicle. AND by the time the owner figures it out, the gun could be three states away. The E-locks are horrible and not usable. If you grip wrong, the gun may not work*, etc. So I'm vexed on this issue.

    * the question is, why are you shooting? Are you on the range? or is this a self defense issue?

  15. by islander on April 11, 2023 4:52 am

    od wrote; "isle said that he was "the biggest pro gun guy on this site." and yet he's talking this cr@p. I don't get it."

    Do you ever ask yourself why you feel the need to post foolish lies like that?

    Or, in your mind, do you think I actually said something as ridiculous as that?

  16. by oldedude on April 11, 2023 6:15 am
    It was regarding a gun law that was being worked through one of the congresses (I'm pretty sure was a state law, but could have been federal). So you'd better check yourself and your wild accusations. You either are lying now that you actually supported gun rights), or you were lying then (which I think is very much the case).

  17. by islander on April 11, 2023 6:31 am

    You're spouting nonsense again, od.

    Why do you feel the need to make stuff like this up?

    The mixed up and jumbled thoughts you are describing do not describe anything that has ever taken place here on SS.

    Are you losing the ability to distinguish reality from what takes place in your imagination? Or is your memory failing and you are just creating memories to fill in the voids?

  18. by oldedude on April 11, 2023 6:59 am
    No, it's you that either doesn't remember, or are lying. Either one is probable.

  19. by islander on April 11, 2023 7:38 am

    od~You're not able to provide any evidence to back up your ridiculous claim because none exists. You know, maybe a date? A Topic heading? a post number?

    Until you can do that you are just blowing smoke out your ass and wasting time.

  20. by oldedude on April 11, 2023 9:05 am
    The topic was the law that was going to be passed. I've gone through everything I know how to on this site. I didn't create the thread, you did.

  21. by oldedude on April 11, 2023 9:53 am
    So Curt- back to the subject at hand. As you know, I generally don't like the "Red Flag Laws" for one major reason. The lack of constitutional protections on the state levels. An ex-spouse can ruin a person and the victim would never know they were out of legal compliance. There were no requirements for a person to be notified and have due process before their rights were violated.

    I'm finally actually reading the federal law. It isn't too bad and they corrected a lot of the issues I had before. They also increased the penalty for straw purchases, which I've always felt should be much stiffer. I'm not really comfortable with the due process issue, but as they take your stuff, you can see a judge. So that's not horrible, and potentially protects the future victims. I think you and I agree. Just like some people shouldn't drive, some people should not be given guns. Will they find other ways to get guns? They could. Would they use other weapons, sure.

    And I think it's a good start.

  22. by oldedude on April 11, 2023 9:55 am
    Sorry. citation below.
    S.2938 - Bipartisan Safer Communities Act

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