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Sounds to me like DeSantis is waffling on Ukraine
By Donna
February 22, 2023 7:14 pm
Category: Politics

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If Biden said things like this, I'd be advocating strongly for someone to challenge him in the primaries.

DeSantis downplays Russia threat after Biden visit

Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis, responding to the surprise news that President Joe Biden had arrived in Kyiv, downplayed Russia’s military threat to greater Europe on Monday as “third-rate” and criticized the administration’s aid to Ukraine as a “blank-check policy.”

“The fear of Russia going into NATO countries and all that and steamrolling, you know, that has not even come close to happening,” the Republican governor said on Fox’s “Fox & Friends,” appearing from New York. “I think they’ve shown themselves to be a third-rate military power.” [...]

Russia’s incursion into Ukraine, led by President Vladimir Putin, has prompted fears within the Baltic states — Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania — about further invasion if Ukraine falls. Russia has already threatened Moldova, a neighboring country to Ukraine.

The administration has “no clear strategic objective identified” as it provides aid, DeSantis said.

“And I don’t think it’s in our interest to be getting into proxy war with China, getting involved over things like the borderlands or over Crimea,” he said. While Russia is “hostile,” he said, China poses a bigger threat.


***

olde dude, Hts - does this concern you? I ask because I know that you guys are as hawkish on Ukraine as I am.







Cited and related links:

  1. news.yahoo.com

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Comments on "Sounds to me like DeSantis is waffling on Ukraine":

  1. by Curt_Anderson on February 22, 2023 7:23 pm
    “The fear of Russia going into NATO countries and all that and steamrolling, you know, that has not even come close to happening,” the Republican governor said.

    That sounds rather Neville Chamberlainesque.






  2. by HatetheSwamp on February 23, 2023 2:33 am

    Donna,

    What DeSantis said is standard fare among a large group of GOPs. I'm surprised that you don't know that.

    Actually, OD and pb are rare among GOPs in being uncomfortable with Biden because we think he's not been supportive enough of Ukraine. At least, I believe OD is with pb on that.

    Does it concern me? No. I absolutely disagree with DeSantis on this.

    I'll say again. The GOP is the home of openness and acceptance and inclusion, tolerance and diversity and...FREETHINKING. It's everyday for GOPs to disagree.

    Practically speaking, with Dems walking in lockstep with Biden, I'm not concerned.

    Once DeSantis is elected though... Bahahahahahahahahahaha!


  3. by islander on February 23, 2023 5:51 am

    Once DeSantis is elected though... Bahahahahahahahahahaha! ` Hate

    I think that's a hilarious thought as well, but seriously, you have to realize that there are some people who actually imagine him getting elected and some of them actually believe he will in real life !!! 🤣


  4. by HatetheSwamp on February 23, 2023 5:54 am

    It'd be a nightmare for you, our hater, and po, our anger junkie.


  5. by Donna on February 23, 2023 6:19 am

    Oh my yes, Both Ways Bill is absolutely open-minded and free thinking enough to stick with DeSantis no matter what or how many things he ever disagrees with him about, or how immoral, unconstitutional, and/or sociopathic his actions ever become.

    Just as he has always been open minded and free thinking about his Mango Messiah. That's how BWB rolls...



  6. by Ponderer on February 23, 2023 6:21 am
    ^^^^^

    That was me.


  7. by islander on February 23, 2023 6:47 am

    Pondy ~ Hmmm... "BWB" I like that ! It just rolls off one's tongue so easily and fits Hate so perfectly! 🍻


  8. by oldedude on February 23, 2023 6:47 am
    "Actually, OD and pb are rare among GOPs in being uncomfortable with Biden because we think he's not been supportive enough of Ukraine. At least, I believe OD is with pb on that."

    The answer to that is "yes, with limitations."
    Meaning, this is a HUGE tightrope walk for him. As long as he can manage the tightrope and not screw up royally, I'm with him. "Royally" I mean, don't pull another Afghanistan.

    If you decide to put troops in (if at all overtly), that could be really bad politically. I'm just "assuming" we have teams or individuals there that are sponsored by the US government somewhere. This would be normal black ops stuff. No big deal, but just watch yourself on that.
    You need to covertly work with the Americans that are in country but not "part" of the US government. Not to watch over them, but to know who's there, and who they're attached to.

    The Russians just launched nuclear capable warships into the region. It's a threat for sure, just don't know if it's a political threat or a military threat yet. Maybe they just want to see when joe will flinch.


  9. by oldedude on February 23, 2023 7:40 am
    I will say that 1. he is playing to his base. Technically, I think he's right. Realistically, with China's help (which is making headway starting about 36 hours ago) there will be complications to the statement.

    My view for the past year has been the fear of chemical/ biological weapons. Russian order of battle treats Chemical Weapons as "conventional" weapons, meaning a brigade commander or higher can order their use. I'm not convinced the Russians issued them to the line units in Ukraine. That may be a big difference for DeSantis, and I'd agree with that.

    They're good at "scorched earth" policy, much like Sherman did during the Civil War. Kill everything. People, livestock, crops, houses, rat holes. ANYTHING the enemy could (however improbable) use against you.

    I would trust him with military stuff. He was the JAG for SEAL TEAM ONE, which put him on looking at plans and warplans to look at legal viability and issues. These folks round table SEAL Ops with everyone involved with creating infill, mission, and exfil. So each specialty can speak to problems so a consensus can be reached with command. We haven't seen that level of expertise in decades.

    If he's getting read in? Doubtful yet. But pedojoe is the only one with that clearance at this time that may be in the running. My guess is that he has one of the guys he served with, or one of the intel folks on his advisory board for the run to look at the signs and they'll talk about that. He's got access to these folks, some that are with him actually put their lives in his hands in a very, very gray world.


  10. by Donna on February 23, 2023 11:13 am

    Given what DeSantis said regarding ongoing material support for Ukraine, if I were President Zelenskyy, I'd be really concerned about a President DeSantis providing Ukraine with the same level of support that President Biden has been providing Ukraine.

    The DeSantis was just playing to his base line of thinking is the kind of predictably lame excuse-making one would expect from his ardent pro-Ukraine supporters. Do you guys, od, Hts, really believe that DeSantis would stop playing to his base once he became president? Presidents usually want to be re-elected ya know.


  11. by HatetheSwamp on February 23, 2023 1:10 pm

    Donna,

    There's no consensus among GOPs about Ukraine but my guess is that DeSantis’s base is more hawkish than DeSantis’s position. DeSantis is a leader.


  12. by oldedude on February 23, 2023 1:10 pm
    The short answer is; there are too many things going on to answer that question.

    I think he would evaluate the information he would then be read into and make a decision. I'm NOT going to ASS U ME anything because I can't read the future. The world stage changes quickly. There are lots of moving parts to this, some of them happening as we speak. When he made those remarks, the exchange between Xi an Putin was hours old. His speech was already done.

    Putin started out as the power player in the region. Now, he's Xi's puppet. The Ukrainians have beat him down to that. Xi wants a united pact to pull the US into another global, two-front war and is willing to use Russia to do that. He hadn't given Putin any deadly weapons systems until recently. Now they're brokering that deal.

    Once Xi attacks Taiwan, Putin can use chemicals to his heart's desire to kill millions in Ukraine in a matter of days. Then he has his port in the Black Sea. His job is done. Can he go into Europe? sure. Can he keep it? looking at the militaries in Europe, He could get through Germany and the Med countries pretty easily. Keeping it is going to be a test of wills for the Russians. It will look like the Nazi's, only 10 fold worse.

    We're fighting in Taiwan. Our military is so "woke" learning pronouns, they're a second-rate military. They're fighting with a million more trained military and four times the special forces than (the inclusive) we have. All your good corporate knowledge is leaving the military. There will be few, even operators that are left to carry on that war. Taiwan, Japan, NZ, AUS will fall within weeks from China.

    This is when the "Man in the High Castle" plays out.


  13. by Donna on February 23, 2023 3:06 pm

    “And I don’t think it’s in our interest to be getting into proxy war with China, getting involved over things like the borderlands or over Crimea,” - Ron DeSantis

    So if it gets into a proxy war with China -- and by some accounts it already is -- in DeSantis's opinion saving Ukraine would no longer be in our interest, which to me means that he would bail.

    How could you be comfortable with that?

    If it comes to choosing between Ukraine and Taiwan, IMO Ukraine wins hands down.


  14. by HatetheSwamp on February 24, 2023 2:29 am

    I assume, pt, you're asking that of OD so I'll let him answer for himself but, Donna, WHAT TURNED YOU INTO SUCH A WAR HAWK?


  15. by HatetheSwamp on February 24, 2023 3:26 am

    pt,

    "Over and over again, our leaders show they just don't care about us--from failures in East Palestine and Jackson, to 9/11 first responders and Iraq burn pit vets. While the American people beg for scraps in Ohio, our president is overseas giving away tens of billions of dollars. Disgraceful." -Tulsi

    I'm 50/50 with Tulsi on this. This is what is beyond po's intellectual ability. And, it's what's behind DeSantis’s recent remarks about blank-checking Ukraine support.

    "That feckless dementia-ridden piece of crap" and his party continue to spend like drunken sailors on their first shore leave in a year. Tulsi's connecting Biden’s Ukraine dynamism to his dementia.

    I agree that support of Ukraine is in our national best interest but not more...heck, not as much as the needs of our own people.

    Tulsi ain't GOP. She's an indie. But, she speaks for a growing number who are not walking in, to use your own word, pt, "fascistic" lockstep with the Flatulent Fool...

    ...and, if the DeSantis position eventually prevails, it may very well be Clouseau's either/or ignoring of domestic issues.


  16. by oldedude on February 24, 2023 7:46 am
    So if it gets into a proxy war with China -- and by some accounts it already is -- in DeSantis's opinion saving Ukraine would no longer be in our interest, which to me means that he would bail.

    Instead of looking through your lens of complete and utter hatred, try stepping back.

    If we go to a proxy war against China. I talked about this in a two-front war (directly above your post). We can't do it. Once the Pacific falls, we're talking about China literally owning the US in a matter of weeks. First, the US is outmatched in manpower, weapons, and skill. Because of the new WOKENESS, we will lose. That means China will own our country. They also have millions of immigrants in country with families in China proper, Singapore, and Taiwan. Most of these folks are NOT Chinese agents. They are immigrants that will be threatened with their family's lives to help the Chinese. If they don't have families there, the families here will be murdered. They'll start in the high Asian population centers. Hanging people outside in the streets and burning their bodies (maybe alive). Once they do that, they'll get the population to be agents for them.

    Your choice.




  17. by Donna on February 24, 2023 8:25 am

    Hatred? No. I have no idea, why you think that.

    I would rather that China not invade and topple Taiwan. I'm just saying that if we had to choose between the two, I'd stick with Ukraine, especially since we've already invested so much there, as have Ukrainians themselves of course.

    I read a piece in the NY Times this morning about the new Russian offensive in Donbas having already failed miserably.

    IMO Ukraine has far surpassed initial expectations because, in addition to the support the West has provided them, Ukrainians are fighting for their freedom as opposed to Russian soldiers who are fighting because they're being forced to.

    I'm going to predict now that despite the growing waffling movement within the Republican Party on Ukraine, Russia will throw in the towel much sooner than expected.

    Hts, it wasn't too long ago that you were as gung-ho as I am on Ukraine aid. WTF happened? I'm guessing that your adoration of Ron DeSantis has circumvented your rationality.

    If you believe that all the money the US has been spending on Ukraine is hurting Americans, you're wrong, as none of that money was ever allocated towards helping Americans, nor is it likely that any of it will impact future allocations of domestic spending either.

    I think that we either stand 100% with Ukraine or we don't, as a half-hearted approach would ultimately prove to be worse than if we never got involved at all.


  18. by HatetheSwamp on February 24, 2023 8:48 am

    Hts, it wasn't too long ago that you were as gung-ho as I am on Ukraine aid. WTF happened? I'm guessing that your adoration of Ron DeSantis has circumvented your rationality.

    Fascinating. And, to quote you, pt, WTF!!!!?

    I am as gung-ho on Ukraine as I have ever been. I'm the one who unsettled po to create all that brouhaha because I praised Clouseau for his visit to Kiev!

    And, I have been clear. I disagree with DeSantis. I noted that I'm not worried yet because the Dems are walking lockstep with the Flatulent Fool.

    But, I'm connected to the real world, not merely with Dem propaganda. I said that I only agree with Tulsi 50/50. But, there are an increasing number of people who think what Tulsi and DeSantis think.

    AND,...

    ...THAT IT'S THIS IMBICILIC, EITHER/OR BIDEN DOCTRINE THAT COULD VERY WELL TURN THE TIDE IN THE US AWAY FROM THE SUPPORT OF UKRAINE.

    Tulsi is right, IMO. Americans matter to Americans. Joe and you Clouseau sycophants had better figure that out. Soon, it may be too late.


  19. by Donna on February 25, 2023 8:24 am

    Tulsi reminds me of Kirsten Sinema. She's trying to appeal to a political center that no longer exists.


  20. by HatetheSwamp on February 25, 2023 9:33 am

    Tulsi is enigmatic. And, freethinking something I'm convinced, with increasing certainty, that you lot neither respects nor understand.

    The last time I caught her on FOX AND FRIENDS, she was introduced to a "Fox News contributor," a designation shared by Caitlyn Jenner. While she was there everyone from Fox was mesmerized.


  21. by oldedude on February 25, 2023 9:48 am
    What I like about her is that she isn't afraid to disagree with people. She'll do it politely, but disagree nonetheless. And have facts to back her up. Like everyone else, I don't agree with her all the time, but I'm not asking to. I'm interested in what she has to say and bring facts to the table.

    I also think it's interesting that both are Hindu. So you get a lot of xenophobia and of course, hatred from the left. I think the right has very pointed pundits that hate her. In the left it's a general hatred. I heard the both speak at CPAC. And in the center of conservativism, both she and Nikki got standing ovations.


  22. by HatetheSwamp on February 25, 2023 10:13 am

    What Nikki possesses it leadership ability. My guess is that, if she's President, she'll p whip Putin. Baha.


  23. by oldedude on February 25, 2023 1:41 pm
    I would rather that China not invade and topple Taiwan. I'm just saying that if we had to choose between the two, I'd stick with Ukraine, especially since we've already invested so much there, as have Ukrainians themselves of course.

    If we do that we lose the US per se. Period. They walk across the Pacific and we have no way to stop them. Their ships are better, their aircraft are about the same, so it depends on the skill of the pilots. They beat the crap out of us in manpower, tanks, missile technology. They take out our electricity, make us a third world shthole country, and walk in. The sheep will rat out their mothers and children to be saved.


  24. by Donna on February 25, 2023 2:07 pm

    Are you serious?


  25. by Curt_Anderson on February 25, 2023 2:08 pm
    "They walk across the Pacific" --- OD

    LOL!


  26. by oldedude on February 25, 2023 3:33 pm
    Said by people that hate the military and believe that woke military is a good military. give me a fukking break. for especially curt to laugh at that is a comedy in itself. The most delicate "man" I've ever met who won't even stand up to the people that want to murder his son.


  27. by HatetheSwamp on February 26, 2023 3:07 am

    Tulsi:

    "Buttigieg admits there is over 1,000 derailments every year. Biden Admin and Norfolk Southern just don’t care. Despite windfall profits for Norfolk Southern and $1.2 trillion so-called “infrastructure” bill, they have done nothing to protect our communities. The lack of support for the inspiring people of Ohio is further salt in the wound."

    How can even you Biden sycophant progressive SwampLovers support this?


  28. by oldedude on February 26, 2023 5:35 am
    First, they'll find a way.

    This is a major problem with throwing money at a problem. Does there need to be money? Absolutely. As I've said before, I haven't been real happy with the "infrastructure" money which was more about "green" than roads, electric vehicles, etc. This is one area that needed to be addressed (and was). Unfortunately, there's no accountability for the funds. Who's to blame? The government, agencies, and government oversight. Is there a political party more guilty? Absolutely not. This is just business as usual with the government.

    I will say shame on those who passed the bill without the oversight after the COVID money was abused.

    If you take your car in to get fixed, and they charge you almost what the car is worth to change the oil, wouldn't you want to know what those charges are for? I'm just asking for the same money management in our government.

    I would like to see the company's feet held to the fire on this until it's fixed. Which may be generations down the road. Honestly, I don't care about if the company goes broke (except that would stop help to the folks). It's a Capitalistic economy. The company chose not to take the necessary steps to ensure safety. They cut the corner to save pennies, now they'll be spending millions of dollars. I'm okay with that.


  29. by oldedude on February 26, 2023 5:40 am
    Sorry, I needed to put that in the correct thread. Mybad.


  30. by Donna on February 26, 2023 8:26 am

    Both political parties are to blame for trains that carry hazmats not being refitted with state-of-the-art brake systems. I read that Europe has opted not to install them either. The drawback? They're very expensive.


  31. by Donna on February 26, 2023 8:30 am

    Back to foreign policy - I don't see China ever waging a hot war directly on American soil. All 3 major world powers are avoiding that for many obvious reasons.


  32. by oldedude on February 26, 2023 10:12 am
    China already owns much of the electric grid, and vast thousands of acres of farmland. They need both. China has already said this is what we want to do, and they're working on it. Xi first needed to secure the domestic and market scene. Most of the drugs we get are made in China, so they have control of that.


  33. by Donna on February 26, 2023 10:57 am

    That's a different issue.


  34. by islander on February 26, 2023 11:20 am

    "I don't see China ever waging a hot war directly on American soil."

    I Agree. The cost to China, in more ways than one would, make any such foolish endeavor insane.


  35. by Curt_Anderson on February 26, 2023 11:33 am
    Also regarding China, a good way to dissuade China from invading Taiwan is to let them see how poorly it's going for Putin in Ukraine and how the US and West stood up to Putin. Also, with Putin's army diminished and floundering in Ukraine, Russia is not an ally that China can count on.

    Ukraine and maybe Taiwan would be in trouble had Trump been elected to a second term. Given Trump's bromance with Putin and Trump's hostility and animosity toward NATO, there is no way he would or could have rallied NATO to defend Ukraine as Biden has.


  36. by oldedude on February 26, 2023 11:53 am
    "I Agree. The cost to China, in more ways than one would, make any such foolish endeavor insane."

    Isle, what costs are there to China? They can't farm on much of their land, it's polluted because of using 50 year old technology for coal plants.

    How to take us? destroy the infrastructure through EMP's, and take land from the inside. No nukes, no chemicals, maybe biological they can control.

    Also regarding China, a good way to dissuade China from invading Taiwan is to let them see how poorly it's going for Putin in Ukraine and how the US and West stood up to Putin. Also, with Putin's army diminished and floundering in Ukraine, Russia is not an ally that China can count on.

    So far, China hasn't given Russia any weapons, etc. That's about to change. Then, Putin will win in Ukraine unless the US is directly involved, which is what China wants us to do. Russia will be given the go ahead by China to use chemical/biological weapons, which can kill most of the country in three days if they want to. And Russia has the capability. If I'm China, I don't see a down side.


  37. by islander on February 26, 2023 3:01 pm

    "Also regarding China, a good way to dissuade China from invading Taiwan is to let them see how poorly it's going for Putin in Ukraine and how the US and West stood up to Putin. Also, with Putin's army diminished and floundering in Ukraine, Russia is not an ally that China can count on". ~ Curt

    I don't doubt that this something China is not keenly aware of, and they are not foolish enough to not realize what would happen to all the money $$$ that will disappear from their coffers when "we nationalize" every thing they "own" and have invested in here, "and" of course they know the ridiculously unimaginable logistics and cost of trying to send troops and supplies half way around the world to fight a hot war on our soil and occupy a country which would, just like Ukraine, be fighting on their own soil!

    They know that anything they can damage or destroy here, infrastructure, communications, etc. will be utterly destroyed in their own country. They might not be our best friends...but they are not stupid.



  38. by oldedude on February 26, 2023 7:01 pm
    An EMP in CONUS wouldn't touch Alaska, let alone China.

    Their infrastructure is already here.

    Their supplies are already here. That's the beauty for them. They own many of the agricultural land thanks to pedojoe, who put the Trump restrictions on hold. Although it was only a short time, they were ready and waiting for the gift from him.

    Like I said earlier. Resistance in the US would be far different than in Ukraine.

    Once the EMP was activated, all electronics/ power grids are down, and so are our aircraft, cars, and communications. Anything that's electrical.

    For tough masses of resistance, chemical warfare would be best. Phosgene or GB would be the preferred. Or they can use Trichothecene, which the Russians invented. It's cheap and has a half-life of several hours with a virtual 100% kill rate.
    emergency.cdc.gov


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