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The two mostly likely criminal referrals to the DOJ by the J6 committee.

By Curt_Anderson
July 13, 2022 4:15 pm
Category: Law

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Any bets that nobody in Trump's orbit will be a witness for the prosecution? A crime doesn't have to be successful for there to be criminal charges. Trump's defense is in part that he really thinks that he won the last election. A sincerely held but stupid belief is not a stay out of jail card.

I have a feeling that Trump will be indicted but his legal mouthpieces will stall, delay and appeal long enough that Trump dies of natural causes before he might be convicted.

1. Conspiracy to Defraud the United States
Title 18, United States Code, Section 371, makes it a criminal offense for two or more persons to conspire to defraud the United States, a felony punishable by up to five years in prison. The conspiracy attempted to defraud the United States by interfering with the functioning of the United States Congress to certify the results of a presidential election and permit the transfer of presidential power, as set forth in the Twelfth Amendment to the United States Constitution and the Electoral Count Act.

2. Obstruction of an Official Proceeding
Title 18, United States Code, Section 1512(c)(2) makes it a crime to corruptly obstruct, influence or impede an official proceeding or attempt to do so, an offense that is punishable by up to 20 years in prison. This theory has been used already to charge scores of defendants for their conduct in the Jan. 6 attack. Here, the evidence shows that by pressuring Pence to abuse his authority as vice president, Trump and his co-conspirators wrongfully attempted to obstruct the certification of the states’ votes and the transfer of presidential power.


Cited and related links:

  1. codes.findlaw.com
  2. codes.findlaw.com

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Comments on "The two mostly likely criminal referrals to the DOJ by the J6 committee.":

  1. by HatetheSwamp on July 13, 2022 4:32 pm

    On our side of the ideological spectrum, some believe that this brouhaha is merely a pre-impeachment scam, in the event that...


  2. by oldedude on July 13, 2022 5:21 pm
    1. What crime did he commit to defraud the government? If you do it through legal means, you're using the system. If it isn't that, then you need to cite your predicate acts that would lead you (by statute) to charge. Repeat a predicate act if necessary.


    2. Your reasoning is far too vague here. You need to state your predicate acts if they're going to court. It doesn't make any sense.


  3. by oldedude on July 13, 2022 5:28 pm
    "Any bets that nobody in Trump's orbit will be a witness for the prosecution?"
    Another thing. It's OUR system of Justice. Prosecution must make the case. Not defense. The only thing defense needs to do is raise reasonable doubt. You really need to retake High School government.




  4. by Curt_Anderson on July 13, 2022 5:47 pm
    OD,
    I am sure that you believe that ballot stuffing or tampering with ballots boxes are crimes. What Trump and the insurrectionists attempted was ballot box tampering on steroids.

    Even if they had some obscure legal rationale, that they forced the vice president and members of Congress to flee and hide combined with the pressure applied by Trump on Pence negates any legal justifications.

    That's an attempt to defraud the United States by interfering with the functioning of the United States Congress to certify the results of a presidential election and permit the transfer of presidential power.


  5. by oldedude on July 13, 2022 6:32 pm
    So are you thinking they are going to impeach Trump for an Insurrection? I find that interesting. "The House of Representatives impeached Donald Trump on January 13, 2021 for a second time, marking the first time in U.S. history that a President has been impeached more than once."

    Ten Republicans voted to impeach Trump for incitement of insurrection, granting the Democrats’ latest effort to remove him from office new bipartisan backing. In 2019, when Trump was impeached for abuse of power and obstruction of justice, not a single House Republican voted for impeachment.
    That would make this double jeopardy. "The Double Jeopardy Clause in the Fifth Amendment to the US Constitution prohibits anyone from being prosecuted twice for substantially the same crime. The relevant part of the Fifth Amendment states, "No person shall . . . be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb . . . . ""

    "I am sure that you believe that ballot stuffing or tampering with ballots boxes are crimes. What Trump and the insurrectionists attempted was ballot box tampering on steroids."
    I'm just asking for open sourced cites, since neither of us have anything else. So. Yes, stuffing ballot boxes were stuffed. Yes that is illegal. I need to know how he illegally tampered with the results.

    Even if they had some obscure legal rationale, that they forced the vice president and members to flee and hide combined with the pressure applied to Pence by Trump negates any legal means used as a justification.
    So you're saying they used illegal force (knife point or gun, etc) to get the VP et.al. to flee and hide. If not, I think they could make a good case, using AOC and other snowflakes interviews at the time that to hide was a good idea.

    That's an attempt to defraud the United States by interfering with the functioning of the United States Congress to certify the results of a presidential election and permit the transfer of presidential power.
    To do that, you would have to show they validated the results late because of what he did. If they were successful, no case.

    Look, all I'm looking for here is a fair trial. something that vaguely resembles a US courtroom, not some Taliban run kangaroo court. What you have cited is something my 7 year old granddaughters would come up with, and a joke to the justice system.
    time.com
    law.cornell.edu


  6. by Curt_Anderson on July 13, 2022 6:59 pm
    OD, now YOU are the one who needs to repeat your high school government class. That would NOT be double jeopardy.

    For one thing the jeopardy of impeachment is removal from office. There is no fine or prison time if convicted by the Senate. Even if Trump faced the exact same charges in criminal court as the articles of his second impeachment, it's not double jeopardy. That's like saying OJ Simpson faced double jeopardy because he had a criminal trial and a civil court trial over his wife's and Ron Goldman's murders.

    "So you're saying they used illegal force (knife point or gun, etc)."
    Yes. That and bear spray, clubs, spears, and the other weapons they didn't want to take through the metal detectors on the Ellipse. Not to mention the intimidation of the gallows and the chants of "Kill Mike Pence!"

    The results were delayed, if not late. But a crime doesn't need to be successful for it to be a chargeable crime.


  7. by Curt_Anderson on July 13, 2022 7:15 pm
    It's as if this article were written in response my question about who in Trump's orbit might be a witness for the prosecution?


    Rolling Stone: Trump’s Lawyers Think Mark Meadows Is Going Down
    Trump’s inner circle increasingly views Meadows as a likely fall guy for the former president’s attempts to overturn the 2020 election. Members of Trump’s legal team are actively planning certain strategies around Meadows’ downfall — including possible criminal charges. Trump has himself begun the process of distancing himself from some of his onetime senior aide’s alleged actions around Jan. 6.

    Meadows’ already bleak legal prospects could get even worse. Rolling Stone has learned that the Jan. 6 committee has been quietly probing his financial dealings, and any new revelations would add to an already long list of unethical and potential illegal actions he’s accused of taking on behalf of Donald Trump.

    For Meadows, it doesn’t help his case that he’s loathed by any number of his fellow Trumpworld veterans, some of whom view him as a two-faced man prone to double-dealing and simply telling people what they want to hear.

    news.yahoo.com


  8. by HatetheSwamp on July 14, 2022 3:43 am

    Rolling Stone: Trump’s Lawyers Think Mark Meadows Is Going Down

    Trump’s inner circle increasingly views Meadows as a likely fall guy for the former president’s attempts to overturn the 2020 election. Members of Trump’s legal team are actively planning certain strategies around Meadows’ downfall — including possible criminal charges. Trump has himself begun the process of distancing himself from some of his onetime senior aide’s alleged actions around Jan. 6.


    "C'mon Jack! Read the polls!"

    ROLLING STONE?! Really?

    Every time Trump has a rally, I search for the ROLLING STONE article. As far as Trump is concerned, RS has become THE WEEKLY WORLD NEWS (Half man/half woman makes self pregnant for the second time!)

    If you can't already spot TDS, read ROLLING STONE'S coverage of Trump. A case in point.

    ROLLING STONE. Bahahahahahahahahahaha!


  9. by oldedude on July 14, 2022 11:56 am
    "The Double Jeopardy Clause in the Fifth Amendment to the US Constitution prohibits anyone from being prosecuted twice for substantially the same crime. The relevant part of the Fifth Amendment states, "No person shall . . . be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb . . . . ""

    You really needed to read the law on this instead on your typical knee-jack reaction. "Life or limb" is something of value. If he is going to lose his job if this actually goes through (which is won't), that applies.


  10. by islander on July 14, 2022 12:07 pm

    OD- You need to pay attention to what Curt said.

    There can be no double jeopardy here since Trump has never been charged with a crime or tried in a criminal court.

    I hope you don't think an impeachment trial is a criminal trial...Do you?


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