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Some states want a fetus to be considered a person. Defining those rights is tough

By Curt_Anderson
July 6, 2022 3:30 pm
Category: Law

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The 14th Amendment defines that a person is a citizen when they are born (or naturalized). Anti-abortionists would like that redefined so that the unborn have the rights of born citizens.

Amendment XIV
Section 1.
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

The reason that a pregnant woman can't drive in an HOV (high-occupancy vehicle) lane is because there is one person in the car. But if we define a fetus as a person, suddenly there are two people in the car.

In the tax code, the reason that you can't claim the baby on your taxes until it's born is because it is not a person yet. But in a state that has a fetal personhood law, suddenly, you can put that fetus on your tax return.

Some government give-away programs are based on the number of people in a household.

If we define the unborn as citizens, are we all automatically nine months older? Does the current crop of young people get to vote, buy a beer, buy a gun nine months earlier? Do we all celebrate our conception day instead of birthdays?

Sometimes it could be a disadvantage to ascribe personhood to a fetus. In some situations there is a capacity or other limit based on the number of people.

Cited and related links:

  1. law.cornell.edu
  2. npr.org

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Comments on "Some states want a fetus to be considered a person. Defining those rights is tough":

  1. by HatetheSwamp on July 6, 2022 3:53 pm

    Just curious. I didn't see it in the article. Which states are we talking about?


  2. by Curt_Anderson on July 6, 2022 4:06 pm
    The article mentioned Texas. There are movements afoot in the red states to redefine personhood. For example, North Dakotans and Coloradoans are considering measures and constitutional amendments to include unborn human beings under the definition of “person”.
    ballotpedia.org
    ballotpedia.org


  3. by oldedude on July 6, 2022 5:05 pm
    Of course, this is going to differ from person to person. I do know that some states charge the homicide of the child if the mother is killed. Some don't. I think my view is that depends on the abortion law in each state. If they consider it a human being for an abortion, then a homicide, or abuse, or whatever should fall in to that definition. Curt, I absolutely agree with the headline on this. This is a really tough decision that there's going to be lots of arguing about.


  4. by oldedude on July 6, 2022 5:07 pm
    Sorry, I also think they should abolish the 14th Amendment. It was done so the former slaves would be citizens. Now it's abused. Guzman's kids are US citizens.


  5. by Curt_Anderson on July 7, 2022 8:56 am
    If American newlyweds Mr. and Mrs. Smith honeymoon in Mexico for month then nine months later back home in the United States she gives birth to an infant, is that baby Mexican or American?


  6. by HatetheSwamp on July 7, 2022 9:03 am

    American.


  7. by Curt_Anderson on July 7, 2022 9:10 am
    So I you don't believe a fetus is person, HtS.


  8. by HatetheSwamp on July 7, 2022 9:12 am

    I believe a fetus is a life.

    I've been through this in 50ish posts with isle.


  9. by Curt_Anderson on July 7, 2022 9:20 am
    So is the chicken you had for dinner "a life". So are cows and pigs living beings. I don't see you advocate that we all go vegetarian. If you don't consistently believe a fetus is a person, then what is your objection to abortion?


  10. by HatetheSwamp on July 7, 2022 11:31 am

    It is the ending of a human life.


  11. by oldedude on July 7, 2022 11:40 am
    I agree. It's good to be at the top of the food chain (for the most part). Same thing with taxes. Maybe for a state tax. But not Federal. He's pulling the old, "you can't use a fetal pig to dissect to train doctors and nurses because it's a life" bullsht. Without a reference though, it's conjecture at best. Or perhaps figment of his imagination.


  12. by Curt_Anderson on July 9, 2022 1:38 pm
    Well that didn't take long...

    Pregnant woman given HOV ticket argues fetus is passenger, post-Roe
    (Washington Post)A pregnant Texas woman who was ticketed for driving in the HOV lane suggested that Roe v. Wade being overturned by the Supreme Court means that her fetus counted as a passenger, and that she should not have been cited.

    Brandy Bottone was recently driving down Central Expressway in Dallas when she was stopped by a sheriff’s deputy at an HOV checkpoint to see whether there were at least two occupants per vehicle as mandated. When the sheriff looked around her car last month, she recounted to The Washington Post that he asked, “Is it just you or is someone else riding with you?”
    washingtonpost.com


  13. by islander on July 10, 2022 4:43 am

    Why calling a fertilized egg, a blastocyst or an embryo etc. "a life" is really meaningless without explaining what is meant when using the word life.

    "Even today, scientists have no satisfactory or universally accepted definition of life."
    blogs.scientificamerican.com


  14. by HatetheSwamp on July 10, 2022 4:43 am

    Curt,

    Here, in Pennsylvania, if pb bends his elbow too frequently at a party and drives home a little too sqiffy, is in an accident in which a pregnant woman dies and pb is charged with vehicular homicide, he'll be charged with the crime twice.

    Here's an honest and sincere question: Do you have a problem with that?


  15. by HatetheSwamp on July 10, 2022 4:52 am

    "Even today, scientists have no satisfactory or universally accepted definition of life."

    Wow. Effin, WOW! Oops, isle. Yeah.

    You wrote your quiet stuff "out loud."

    Bingo, there, isle. You worship at the altar of science-ism. What a bland, soulless religion.

    Even..."SCIENTISTS"...the highest of the most high, eh. The possessors of perfect knowledge...as far as it is known.

    Bahahahahahahahahahaha.

    isle, theologians have highly "satisfactory" definitions of life.

    Keeheeheeheeheehee.


  16. by islander on July 10, 2022 6:25 am

    Which theologians should we recognize as having the authority to define life when we make our laws?


  17. by HatetheSwamp on July 10, 2022 6:29 am

    "...have the authority...?"

    They all have the authority.


  18. by oldedude on July 10, 2022 7:10 am
    So we have the argument between the Religion of God, the Religion of Science, and the Religion of Liberalism.

    Isle,
    We were forced to believe the "Religion of Science" for years we spent in the COVID wars. It turned out that Dr Seuss has more believability than Fauchi the Fraud. Many of us were willing to allow government to to do their thing for awhile. It turns out that he was completely wrong.

    In both cases, we are dealing with core issues. You say "believe the scientists" until you don't. My question (remember, coming from a former Buddhist) is, who made the setup that allows for that "fertilized egg, a blastocyst or an embryo etc" to become a human being and not an earthworm? Can "life" exist in that? I believe so. I also believe there is evil in the world, and a thing called choice for humans. That goes up to a point. I'll relent to the 15 week point before I call it murder. Like I said before, that is up to the citizens of each state to decide, and for the individual.

    I know we cannot sway you. I also know you cannot sway me. My world view is thought about living in third world countries, different parts of the US, etc. It's mine. Not to say yours is wrong. I didn't live it, and it's just different.


  19. by HatetheSwamp on July 10, 2022 7:35 am

    OD,

    What we're touching on now could be the most fascinating discussion in the history of SS.

    isle always shuts down when we approach it but if we could all be transparent, IMO, we could learn a lot about each other...

    ...and, far more importantly, ourselves.


  20. by islander on July 10, 2022 9:46 am

    Your answer so to speak (they all have the authority), was like your definition of life, vague, imprecise, and of no value when it comes to making our laws. In other words, you replied but did not answer the question. ”Which theologians should we recognize as having the authority to define life when we are making our laws?”,

    Should it be a Christian, Jewish, or a Muslin, theologian or some other? We can’t base our laws on all of them if they are different.


  21. by islander on July 10, 2022 9:49 am

    Religion and science are not the same. To say science is a religion shows a lack of understanding of the goal of each and how they go about reaching it.

    Like it or not, they really are quite different. I think we all know why some people who manifest devotion to a deity, a “religious person” want to equate science and religion “as if” they were just different religions.



  22. by HatetheSwamp on July 10, 2022 10:00 am

    Your answer so to speak (they all have the authority), was like your definition of life, vague, imprecise, and of no value when it comes to making our laws.

    I'm sorry.

    My answer was a poor way of suggesting that your question about "authority"was meaningless. What are you asking? What does "authority" have to do with anything? Who? What?, is in a position to grant authority?


  23. by HatetheSwamp on July 10, 2022 10:10 am

    Religion and science are not the same. To say science is a religion shows a lack of understanding of the goal of each and how they go about reaching it.

    Thanks for reminding me that I don't UNDERSTAND.

    Who do you think is suggesting that they are the same? Before you say that pb is, you can stop there.

    pb is a theist. pb UNDERSTANDS that a loving God created a universe of order, of physical laws, and that God created humanity with the ability to understand those laws for its good.

    Apparently, you don't UNDERSTAND.


  24. by islander on July 10, 2022 11:35 am

    ”What does "authority" have to do with anything?”---Hate



    In this thread we’re discussing the making of laws pertaining to the regulation of abortion.

    Hate writes ”I believe a fetus is a life---[abortion] is the ending of a human life”

    isle replied ”Why calling a fertilized egg, a blastocyst or an embryo [or a fetus] etc. a life is really meaningless without explaining what is meant when using the word life.
    Even today, scientists have no satisfactory or universally accepted definition of life”.


    Hate replied, ”Bingo, there, isle. You worship at the altar of science-ism. What a bland, soulless religion.

    Even..."SCIENTISTS"...the highest of the most high, eh. The possessors of perfect knowledge...as far as it is known.

    Bahahahahahahahahahaha.

    isle, theologians have highly "satisfactory" definitions of life.’


    My question to yo, based on your reply was, when it comes to our making laws pertaining to abortion, ”Which theologians should we recognize as having the authority to define life when we make our laws?”

    You {hate] responded, ”My answer [They all have the authority] was a poor way of suggesting that your question about "authority"was meaningless. What are you asking? What does "authority" have to do with anything? Who? What?, is in a position to grant authority?”

    Now do you have a better understanding of my question and why I was asking it ?


  25. by islander on July 10, 2022 12:19 pm

    My response that science and religion are not the same was to OD’s claim, “We were forced to believe the "Religion of Science" for years we spent in the COVID wars.”

    Although from your responses to me, such as this one, ”Bingo, there, isle. You worship at the altar of science-ism. What a bland, soulless religion”,
    it seems that you want to think of science as just another religion.

    I don’t worship at the alter of science-ism. There is no such thing in science. Are you mixing up scientism with science?

    The only person who could believe what you say would be someone who doesn’t understand what science is, and it appears to me to be more and more likely that you don’t understand what science is and/or how and why it differs from religion, or maybe it's just willful ignorance on your part?



  26. by oldedude on July 10, 2022 8:56 pm
    "noun
    noun: religion

    the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.
    "ideas about the relationship between science and religion"
    Similar: faith, belief, divinity, worship, creed, teaching, doctrine, theology, sect, cult, religious, group, faith, community, church, denomination, body, following, persuasion, affiliation

    a particular system of faith and worship.
    plural noun: religions
    "the world's great religions"
    a pursuit or interest to which someone ascribes supreme importance.
    "science is the new religion"


    My response that science and religion are not the same was to OD’s claim, “We were forced to believe the "Religion of Science" for years we spent in the COVID wars.”

    Although from your responses to me, such as this one, ”Bingo, there, isle. You worship at the altar of science-ism. What a bland, soulless religion”,
    it seems that you want to think of science as just another religion.

    I don’t worship at the alter of science-ism.


    From your responses, I just hit your core values. Ergo, your "religion." Period. The answer is that you look at a human being as a "fertilized egg, a blastocyst or an embryo etc. "a life" is really meaningless without explaining what is meant when using the word life."

    You just proved my point. Thank you. "The lady doth protest too much, methinks"
    You have always stood on this platform. I can only take what you say here. Just like Curt calling Lead and I "trumpsters." Prove me wrong. To worship it, makes it a religion. It is either that or "Liberal World Order." Take your pick.


  27. by HatetheSwamp on July 11, 2022 4:02 am

    isle,

    Re: Although from your responses to me, such as this one, ”Bingo, there, isle. You worship at the altar of science-ism. What a bland, soulless religion”, it seems that you want to think of science as just another religion.

    You should pause and consider the reality that, having read your posts for many years, OD and pb interpret you in the same way.

    If we're wrong about you, the problem is with you, not us because we both understand you in the SAME WAY.

    IMO, isle, it's not precisely accurate to suggest that science is your religion. What's true, based on my reading of your posts over many years is that, while science is not your religion, it is your IDOL.

    Forget saying, that we don't UNDERSTAND. We both interpret you in the same way independently.

    If we're wrong, the problem is with you.



  28. by islander on July 11, 2022 4:20 am
    ”To worship it, makes it a religion”---OD

    Except that I don’t worship science...science is simply a tool to help us explain and describe the physical universe that we experience around us, and using what we call “the scientific method” we can make very good predictions based on our observations.


  29. by islander on July 11, 2022 4:45 am

    ”if we're wrong about you, the problem is with you, not us because we both understand you in the SAME WAY.”---Hate

    “You” having the wrong understanding of me is not a problem for me. 



  30. by HatetheSwamp on July 11, 2022 4:47 am

    isle,

    Except that I don’t worship science...science is simply a tool to help us explain and describe the physical universe that we experience around us, and using what we call “the scientific method” we can make very good predictions based on our observations.

    pb will allow OD to chime in if he wants, but pb will this:

    What I see here is a phenomenon typical with people and their belief systems. Your background as far as institutional religion is in Roman Catholicism. Surely you have known many Catholics who can recite the Creeds, the dogma, with precision but who, in their way of life, disregard the official Catholic beliefs.

    Again, OD can disagree, but that's what pb sees with you and science.

    You've always, readily, stated the official line, the dogma of science.

    "...science is simply a tool to help us explain and describe the physical universe that we experience around us..."

    Got it. We all know what science is. But, to you?, it's much more...

    ...at least as I've read your posts over all these years.

    As I read you, you've given your heart to science.

    As I read you, you're as emotionally connected to science as I wish I were to Jesus.

    It's not merely a tool to you,...as I read you.

    Again, you can say that I don't UNDERSTAND. I'll let OD chime in. But, I'd lay odds. He'll say something very similar to what I've said.

    For me, it's obvious.


  31. by HatetheSwamp on July 11, 2022 4:51 am

    “You” having the wrong understanding of me is not a problem for me.

    I'd allow for the possibility that you may be right, isle. That's why I'm making the point that both OD and pb read you in the same way, that we've reached our opinion independently, and, over a period of many years.


  32. by islander on July 11, 2022 5:14 am

    Again, the fact that you have a wrong understanding about me is not a problem for me.

    Why would you think it would be?


  33. by HatetheSwamp on July 11, 2022 5:20 am

    isle,

    How do you account for the fact that OD and I have been reading your posts for, what?, a decade?, and come to the same conclusion? Independently?

    How's that happen?

    Might it just be that we're correct?


  34. by islander on July 11, 2022 5:44 am

    You going through all this just to avoid answering the question of your meaning of "life" when you said, "I believe a fetus is a life."

    If you look at the topic heading, you'll see the context in which that was your response.

    "Some states want a fetus to be considered a person."




  35. by HatetheSwamp on July 11, 2022 6:02 am

    As I noted to Curt, here in Pennsylvania, if an unborn child is "killed" by a drunk driver, that person is liable to be charged with vehicular homicide. I think that's wise.

    Now, about your belief in science...


  36. by islander on July 11, 2022 6:49 am

    Like Curt said: "The reason that a pregnant woman can't drive in an HOV (high-occupancy vehicle) lane is because there is one person in the car. But if we define a fetus as a person, suddenly there are two people in the car."

    You see...This is why you won't define what you mean by a life.

    When we get into the area of "is a fertilized egg a person", most anti-choice people will do anything they can to avoid answering the question because then they'd have to define what a human person is. "Some" will say that at some point during the pregnancy, the developing egg will reach the stage where it can then be legitimately called a person (and I agree with them). You are among the first group of anti-choice people who will do anything to avoid answering the question.

    The whole abortion question revolves around the rights of a person, a pregnant woman is a person...Is a fertilized egg a person?

    Amendment XIV
    Section 1.
    All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside.


  37. by HatetheSwamp on July 11, 2022 7:00 am

    You see...This is why you won't define what you mean by a life.

    Thanks for letting me know.

    Good, ol fashioned woke omniscience.


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