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Alabama law criminalizing gender transition surgery, drugs for minors takes effect

By HatetheSwamp
May 9, 2022 11:40 am
Category: Medical

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The complexities of this issue are becoming apparent.

Lia Thomas.

And, how to protect minors struggling with trans issues is crucially important. How not to unnecessarily interfere with the prerogatives of parents is a very serious question.

One way the left, including the LGBTQ community, has approached questions such as this in the past has been to push a Court challenge all the way to the Supreme Court and to get the high Court to foist its agenda on an innocent nation.

Based on the recent leak, that’s probably not the best course for the left now. For the right in an electric blue state?, maybe so.

Can we dialog with grace about sensitive issues? Doubtful.

Cited and related links:

foxnews.com

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Comments on "Alabama law criminalizing gender transition surgery, drugs for minors takes effect":

by Donna on May 9, 2022 12:25 pm
Once again, Republicans are inserting big brother between patient and doctor.

With that said, there are doctors who are violating the Harry S. Benjamin Standards of Care for transpeople, which IMO the AMA should be cracking down on.

en.wikipedia.org
by HatetheSwamp on May 9, 2022 4:33 pm

I know you Blue MAGA progressives are a little sensitive about Big Brother-ism but protecting the interests of children is not necessarily overreach.

What I like about the Alito opinion, and the precedent it creates, is that, as a nation, we are going to have to find a way to communicate with each other...or, we'll be killing each other.

Admittedly, doxing Supreme Court Justices is a bad start. This issue gives us lots to talk about and think through.
by Donna on May 9, 2022 4:55 pm
Oh puh-lease! You're the one who's always bringing up equating Democratic Party policies with big brother.

If a child is receiving psychiatric and medical treatment from qualified medical professionals who are following Standards of Care for transgender minors, the last thing the child and their family needs is interference from big brother. I can't think of a more reprehensible invasion of privacy.
by HatetheSwamp on May 10, 2022 6:27 am

If a child is receiving psychiatric and medical treatment from qualified medical professionals who are following Standards of Care for transgender minors, the last thing the child and their family needs is interference from big brother. I can't think of a more reprehensible invasion of privacy.

If this, that, that, that and that.

We have a 13 year old niece who is, based on what I can tell, a typical, confused teenager.

Her mom came out as a lesbian when the little girl was four. The mom has become militant since then.

These days, mom is pressuring the niece to change her pronoun and seriously to think about transitioning. And, the niece is now confused to the max.

You describe utopia: "If a child is receiving psychiatric and medical treatment from qualified medical professionals..."

To further quote you, "Puh-lease."

In the real world, cases like our niece's are far from rare. Confused children need an advocate, especially when family members add to the confusion. From either side of the issue.

Yesterday you guys were describing protests at Supreme Court Justices' homes, essentially, as a bunch of people who are concerned about protecting individual liberty coming together to sing Kumbaya.

To quote the Doddering Old Fool, "C'mon man, gimme a break!"

Of course. If this were Utopia, we wouldn't have a government. But, it aint.

by Donna on May 10, 2022 7:26 am
I'm pretty sure I posted here on the problem of LGBTQ+ parents projecting their L,G,B,T,or Q-ism onto their children. Btw there's a young transwoman on YouTube who is devoting a lot of time exposing this problem.

OTOH, years ago a woman who owned a house I was renting a room at told me about friends of hers who had a young male child who was showing signs of severe transgenderism. She personally knew this child. She said that everything about "him" besides "his" genetic makeup was female. The problem is that the child's parents were extremely disturbed by and disapproving
of it, and took their child to a doctor who suggested putting the child on male hormones, which to me, because I'm educated on this topic, sounds like malpractice, as transgenderism has absolutely nothing to do with sex hormone levels.

So what you described can go both ways.

Sheri and I have a dear friend - actually she's our best friend; we used to share an apartment with her and her husband - who was such a child. She transitioned young - around age 20, and has been with her husband (he's a secondary school teacher and she used to be a preschool teacher), since she transitioned. She's 68 years old. Btw, neither of her parents ever accepted her transition.

While unfortunately there are some LGBTQ+ parents who project their conditions onto their kids, statistics show that the overwhelming majority of people who transition are happy with their decisions years later.

Big brother needs to stay the hell out of medicine. Yes, sometimes there are going to be parents and doctors who make horrible decisions, but by and large we're much better off if we allow teachers and medical professionals to do the jobs they were trained to do.

by HatetheSwamp on May 10, 2022 7:47 am

I specifically said that the problem is on both sides of the issue.

If you haven't read Nineteen Eighty-Four, you should.

If governments were not involved in advocating for the needs of children, many children would suffer, even die, needlessly.

That's not Big Brother.
by Donna on May 10, 2022 9:58 am
Big brother as you define it is when you personally don't agree with a particular government action.
by HatetheSwamp on May 10, 2022 10:08 am

No.

For pb, Big Brother appears when rights, given by God and defined by the Bill of Rights are attacked. So, when President Biden and blue state governors presumed to have the authority to attack the liberties that are ours primarily through the First Amendment, pb called, "Big Brother!"
by Donna on May 10, 2022 6:10 pm
"...rights, given by God"?

In the Old Testament, the God of Abraham does a lot more taking away of rights than granting them.

Nowhere in the Bill of Rights does it say that God gave them.

gilderlehrman.org
by Donna on May 10, 2022 6:12 pm
And nowhere in the Bible are the rights that comprise the US Bill of Rights mentioned.
by HatetheSwamp on May 11, 2022 3:31 am

...we have been endowed by our Creator with certain inalienable rights...

Maybe po and you really should move to Canada. Eh?
by HatetheSwamp on May 11, 2022 4:43 am

In the Old Testament, the God of Abraham does a lot more taking away of rights than granting them...

And nowhere in the Bible are the rights that comprise the US Bill of Rights mentioned.

Who's your audience for that one?

I have NEVER suggested that the US is or should be a Christian nation. You? With your constant God of Abraham drumbeat, seem to. Very, very odd.

Jesus did teach the give to Caesar what's Caesar's and to God what's God's.

Our Founders said "given by our Creator certain inalienable rights..."

Caesar.

You do your God of Abraham thing. You and Al Qaeda.
by Donna on May 11, 2022 7:27 am
You're distorting what I said.

You said "Big Brother appears when rights, given by God and defined by the Bill of Rights are attacked."

You specifically cited the Bill of Rights. My response is 100% factual. The rights listed in our Bill of Rights appear nowhere in the Bible, nor does the Bill of Rights mention God.

And the phrase "we have been endowed by our Creator with certain inalienable rights" is from the Declaration of Independence, not the Constitution.

by Donna on May 11, 2022 1:33 pm
Come to think, I can't recall even one verse in the Bible where God bestows a right.
by HatetheSwamp on May 11, 2022 1:37 pm

Y'know, I actually wrote a paper on that years ago. You are called to obey and love and serve.

So, go for it!
by Donna on May 11, 2022 2:15 pm
Exactly. It's all about what we're supposed and not supposed to do. And if we really step out of line, he may become angry or jealous and may even strike us down or cast us into hell. God is essentially a totalitarian dictator, and we're totally at his mercy.

by HatetheSwamp on May 11, 2022 2:20 pm

"Love your neighbor as yourself." ~The God of Abraham.
by Donna on May 11, 2022 2:22 pm
Another suggestion or command -- and a good one -- but certainly not a right.
by HatetheSwamp on May 11, 2022 2:34 pm

In an OCD rut, eh?

No, the right thing is a "give to Caesar" thing.

According to Jefferson, we possess rights by virtue of the dignity that is ours because we are God's creation.

The Doddering Old Fart just said that himself a week or so ago.
by Donna on May 11, 2022 3:01 pm
Right, but we were talking about Constitutional rights and God, but as usual you moved the goalposts.
by Donna on May 11, 2022 3:44 pm
But I don't know how you could construe Jesus advice to "Render unto Caeser what is Caesers, and render unto God what is God's" as a right.

Sheesh you're tiresome. Good grief, just admit you were wrong.
by HatetheSwamp on May 12, 2022 5:22 am

Keep up, Donna.

You're the one who keeps bringing the God of Abraham into this.

What I'm splaining is that you are correct.

The notion of a human right is foreign to the vile God of Abraham against whom you spew regular hate...even to the Father of Jesus Whom I love.

Jesus splained that His followers must "give to Caesar what's Caesar's and to God what's God's, i.e., to love God but to be a loyal citizen in the world.

My commitment, as a citizen, giving to Caesar, is to take seriously our Founders' "founding" assertion, "we have been endowed by our Creator with certain inalienable rights..." seriously.

So. Love God? Give yo God what's God's. Embrace liberty? Give to Caesar what's Caesar's.

by Donna on May 12, 2022 7:45 am
"The notion of a human right is foreign to the vile God of Abraham against whom you spew regular hate...even to the Father of Jesus Whom I love."

You're confusing hate with simply acknowledging what Scripture says.

by Donna on May 12, 2022 8:13 am
Today the Israelites would be tried at the International Criminal Court.

From the Book of Numbers, Chapter 31:

7 They fought against Midian, as the Lord commanded Moses, and killed every man. 8 Among their victims were Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur and Reba—the five kings of Midian. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. 9 The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. 10 They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps. 11 They took all the plunder and spoils, including the people and animals, 12 and brought the captives, spoils and plunder to Moses and Eleazar the priest and the Israelite assembly at their camp on the plains of Moab, by the Jordan across from Jericho.

13 Moses, Eleazar the priest and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. 14 Moses was angry with the officers of the army—the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—who returned from the battle.

15 “Have you allowed all the women to live?” he asked them. 16 “They were the ones who followed Balaam’s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the Lord in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the Lord’s people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

In the Book of Joshua, Chapter 10, the Israelites carry out genocide as the Lord ordered.

From the Book of Joshua, Chapter 10:

Five Amorite Kings Killed

16 Now the five kings had fled and hidden in the cave at Makkedah. 17 When Joshua was told that the five kings had been found hiding in the cave at Makkedah, 18 he said, “Roll large rocks up to the mouth of the cave, and post some men there to guard it. 19 But don’t stop; pursue your enemies! Attack them from the rear and don’t let them reach their cities, for the Lord your God has given them into your hand.”

20 So Joshua and the Israelites defeated them completely, but a few survivors managed to reach their fortified cities. 21 The whole army then returned safely to Joshua in the camp at Makkedah, and no one uttered a word against the Israelites.

22 Joshua said, “Open the mouth of the cave and bring those five kings out to me.” 23 So they brought the five kings out of the cave—the kings of Jerusalem, Hebron, Jarmuth, Lachish and Eglon. 24 When they had brought these kings to Joshua, he summoned all the men of Israel and said to the army commanders who had come with him, “Come here and put your feet on the necks of these kings.” So they came forward and placed their feet on their necks.

25 Joshua said to them, “Do not be afraid; do not be discouraged. Be strong and courageous. This is what the Lord will do to all the enemies you are going to fight.” 26 Then Joshua put the kings to death and exposed their bodies on five poles, and they were left hanging on the poles until evening.

27 At sunset Joshua gave the order and they took them down from the poles and threw them into the cave where they had been hiding. At the mouth of the cave they placed large rocks, which are there to this day.

Southern Cities Conquered

28 That day Joshua took Makkedah. He put the city and its king to the sword and totally destroyed everyone in it. He left no survivors. And he did to the king of Makkedah as he had done to the king of Jericho.

29 Then Joshua and all Israel with him moved on from Makkedah to Libnah and attacked it. 30 The Lord also gave that city and its king into Israel’s hand. The city and everyone in it Joshua put to the sword. He left no survivors there. And he did to its king as he had done to the king of Jericho.

31 Then Joshua and all Israel with him moved on from Libnah to Lachish; he took up positions against it and attacked it. 32 The Lord gave Lachish into Israel’s hands, and Joshua took it on the second day. The city and everyone in it he put to the sword, just as he had done to Libnah. 33 Meanwhile, Horam king of Gezer had come up to help Lachish, but Joshua defeated him and his army—until no survivors were left.

34 Then Joshua and all Israel with him moved on from Lachish to Eglon; they took up positions against it and attacked it. 35 They captured it that same day and put it to the sword and totally destroyed everyone in it, just as they had done to Lachish.

36 Then Joshua and all Israel with him went up from Eglon to Hebron and attacked it. 37 They took the city and put it to the sword, together with its king, its villages and everyone in it. They left no survivors. Just as at Eglon, they totally destroyed it and everyone in it.

38 Then Joshua and all Israel with him turned around and attacked Debir. 39 They took the city, its king and its villages, and put them to the sword. Everyone in it they totally destroyed. They left no survivors. They did to Debir and its king as they had done to Libnah and its king and to Hebron.

40 So Joshua subdued the whole region, including the hill country, the Negev, the western foothills and the mountain slopes, together with all their kings. He left no survivors. He totally destroyed all who breathed, just as the Lord, the God of Israel, had commanded. 41 Joshua subdued them from Kadesh Barnea to Gaza and from the whole region of Goshen to Gibeon. 42 All these kings and their lands Joshua conquered in one campaign, because the Lord, the God of Israel, fought for Israel.

43 Then Joshua returned with all Israel to the camp at Gilgal.
by HatetheSwamp on May 12, 2022 8:13 am

You hate when you choose to revile the God of Abraham and pretend away the Father of Jesus.

Since you were a Navigator, you know "You have heard that it was said to people long ago...but I tell you..."

"Blessed are the poor in spirit..."
"Turn the other cheek."

"Love is patient, love is kind, it is not easily angered. It keeps no record of wrongs. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres."

You know that stuff. You just Christophobe it away.

by Donna on May 12, 2022 8:35 am
I confess that I believe that genocide is evil.

by HatetheSwamp on May 12, 2022 11:42 am

You say that but I'm not sure it's true.
by Donna on May 12, 2022 4:57 pm
I'm puzzled why you would think that.

The God of Abraham clearly ordered genocide in the Old Testament. I mean it's right there in black and white in Joshua and Numbers. There's no attempt to hide it.

I would think that a truly loving God wouldn't order any group to commit genocide. How about you? I don't believe you would ever support genocide. As much as I disagree with you, I think you're a decent law-abiding human being. But what about those Bible verses I posted? How do you feel about that?

by Curt_Anderson on May 12, 2022 5:05 pm
Wasn't the Noah's Ark story also about divine genocide?
by Donna on May 12, 2022 5:33 pm
Yes! As the Bible reads, God flooded the world because there was so much sin. And in the end, it didn't work because all Noah's descendants, which includes everyone who was born since the Great Flood, were sinners. Because we're all sinners and are therefore not allowed to enter the Kingdom of God, that is, unless we accept the blood sacrifice of Christ.

by HatetheSwamp on May 13, 2022 6:33 am

I would think that a truly loving God wouldn't order any group to commit genocide.

YOU would, eh!!!!!?

It's not that you don't believe in God, it's that you're better than God! Bahahahahahahahahahaha!

You are, truly, a world class Blue MAGA sanctimone.
by Donna on May 13, 2022 11:00 am
I don't believe that the creator of the universe, if such a creator exists, commanded the Israelites to commit genocide. I think they did that on their own and played the "God made us do it" card. That's why I'm careful to say "the God of Abraham" as opposed to "God" or "the divine creator".

It sounds to me like you would go along with genocide if you believed that "God" commanded it.

Me? I trust my heart, my conscience. Some believe that's how God communicates to us.

The Israelites blamed a plague on the people of Canaan who worshipped other gods, and used that as justification to mass murder the men, women, and children who were living there. This is no different than Christians who warn that permitting abortion and same-sex marriage is bringing God's wrath upon America. I've even heard some of those freaks go so far as to suggest that LGBTQ people should be executed.
by Donna on May 13, 2022 4:59 pm
Back to the original thread topic. I'm sure that'll bring you relief, Hts, as I can tell that the topic we were discussing is uncomfortable for you. I've talked to people who have left Judaism and Christianity over it.

Finally some good news:

Texas high court says governor cannot order transgender child investigations

The Texas Supreme Court on Friday ruled that neither Governor Greg Abbott nor the state's attorney general had the authority to order child abuse investigations of families that provide certain medical treatment for their transgender children.

In its ruling, the top court said the state could not investigate the family of a 16-year-old transgender child at the center of the case while the family's lawsuit was pending before lower courts.

The court did not go so far as to order a blanket ban on all such investigations, saying a decision on carrying out inquiries was up to the Department for Family and Protective Services (DFPS).

[I guess I can go along with that. It isn't inconceivable that a physician is prescribing a treatment that's improper for someone, although I'd rather that the AMA controlled that. - Donna]

"The Governor and the Attorney General were certainly well within their rights to state their legal and policy views on this topic, but DFPS was not compelled by law to follow them," the court wrote in its ruling.

msn.com
by HatetheSwamp on May 14, 2022 7:09 am

The coverage of this has been fascinating.

Here's the NYT headline: Texas Court Allows Abuse Inquiries of Parents of Transgender Children

My guess is that you and I will have both, as Rush used to say, "assumed room temperature" before this issue is settled. I suspect that the woke side reached the zenith of its influence with the pushback against Lia Thomas.

The wokesters vulnerability will be with children. The wokesters' awareness of that problem explains their trying to make that Florida law about gay issues when, clearly, it ain't.

by Donna on May 14, 2022 7:16 am
The Florida issue was about parental control of curriculum, and one of the examples concerned the mentioning of LGBTQ-related issues in K-3 classrooms.
by HatetheSwamp on May 14, 2022 7:24 am

Back to the original thread topic. I'm sure that'll bring you relief, Hts, as I can tell that the topic we were discussing is uncomfortable for you. I've talked to people who have left Judaism and Christianity over it.

Bahahahahahahahahahaha.

Interestingly, I, too, have experienced a bit of discomfort...

...over the way you are so embarrassingly confident in your argument.

Your God of Abraham is a bit of a challenge to Orthodox Judaism, even Islam.

But, you, the former Navigator, know the Sermon on the Mount. If you can soften your hard heart just a tad, you know
1 Corinthians 13's argument that "the greatest of these is love" and Hebrews 11's commentary splaining the centrality of faith, even for the "God of Abraham" and you pretend all of that away. That will hold you over well enough, I suppose, until you do assume room temperature.

But, some day, when He's saying, "I was hungry and you gave me something to eat. I was thirsty,..." screaming GOD OF ABRAHAM, GOD OF ABRAHAM!!!!!, ain't gunna cut it.
by Donna on May 14, 2022 7:32 am
I find it interesting that you keep deflecting away from the God of Abraham ordering the Israelites to commit genocide, and them dutifully carrying out those orders. You're doing that because you're finding it difficult to resolve your abhorrence to genocide with your religious beliefs - IOW cognitive dissonance.

by HatetheSwamp on May 15, 2022 5:02 am

You're doing that because you're finding it difficult to resolve your abhorrence to genocide with your religious beliefs - IOW cognitive dissonance.

Can you EVER get through a thread without resorting to sanctimony or, as is the case here, succumbing to your delusions of omniscience!!!!!?

I'm doing no such thing. I know the whole story of the Bible...

...and, your problem is that you do, too.

You know that it ends in "Blessed are the poor in spirit, blessed are the merciful...love your enemies, pray for those who persecute you...the greatest of these is love...

...for God so loved the world that he gave his only son that whoever believes in him will not perish..."

Why you do that, I can only guess. I won't claim to know. I'm not omniscient.

But, I do know you do it. You've made it clear that you do.

You know, intimately, that the story ends in forgivenness, grace and mercy and love. Why do you focus on the most extreme examples of justice...judgment, when you know the inexpressible goodness that comes in the end.

You don't even say, "Yeah, but! Yeah, but!!!!"

It's all about justice and judgment in the Gospel According to Donna. What a curious message to take out of context and emphasize.

Wassup with the obsession with being judged, never forgiven and loved?
by Donna on May 15, 2022 10:17 am
Wow, you're really touchy and defensive about this subject.

Ok, so it doesn't matter to you that the God you worship ordered genocide to be carried out. Got it.

I guess that since the Holocaust resulted in the birth of the nation of Israel in 1948, then the Holocaust was part of God's plan. I'm not mocking that. I've heard that rationalization. Just wondering if you subscribe to it

by HatetheSwamp on May 15, 2022 11:19 am

Donna,

Over the years, I've learned that a person can prove anything from the pages of the Bible.

And, I've learned that what a person sees in the Bible speaks as clearly as anything about who they are. It more revealing than a Rorschach test.

You know from this exchange, probably others, too, that one theme I find reveals a God of grace and mercy and love and forgiveness in the Bible. I'll let you decide what that says about me.

And, you make it clear, often, that your very extensive knowledge of the Bible, of all things, focuses on themes of justice and judgment and punishment.

Oy!
by Donna on May 15, 2022 11:39 am
The Nazis believed that they were carrying out God's will too.

I can only speak for myself. I'll continue to condemn all acts of genocide, past and present.

by HatetheSwamp on May 17, 2022 4:15 am

By all means. And, feel free to translate that into Islamophobia and antisemitism. There can be logic in that...if you push it.

But, your critique of Christianity is irrational and hate-based.
by Donna on June 8, 2022 9:05 am
Remember reading in the Old Testament where it mentions "manna", the food that God supposedly dropped from the sky to feed the Israelites during their 40-year trek through the desert? Well, I have a theory about what it was.

It was bat shit.

As the story continues, the Israelites eventually reached the Promised Land where they slaughtered all of the people who were living there... which is where we got the phrase "bat shit crazy".
by Donna on June 8, 2022 9:17 am
All joking aside, I hadn't read your last comment until I posted that.

As anyone can plainly see, I wasn't poking fun at Christianity, I was just quoting the Bible, which says very clearly that the God of Abraham ordered the Israelites to commit genocide.

If you can't handle that, fine, but don't come after me with your unhinged accusations.

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