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Ukraine claims they sunk Putin's flagship; Russia claims they sunk it themselves

By Curt_Anderson
April 14, 2022 5:17 pm
Category: Military

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Either way, Russia is humiliated. Either the "non-country" (as Putin describes it) Ukraine sunk mighty Russia's flagship or Russian sailors incompetently stored ammunition and/or allowed a fire to get out of control.

NY Times/BRUSSELS — Russia’s faltering war against Ukraine suffered a pair of setbacks Thursday when the flagship of Russia’s Black Sea fleet sank after a catastrophic explosion and fire, as the European Union moved closer to an embargo on Russian oil imports.

Ukraine claimed to have struck the vessel, the guided missile cruiser Moskva, with two of its own Neptune missiles, while Russia said the blast was caused by ammunition aboard the ship. If confirmed, the missile attack would be a serious blow to Russia, both militarily and symbolically — proof that its ships can no longer operate with impunity, and another damaging blow to morale.


Cited and related links:

  1. nytimes.com

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Comments on "Ukraine claims they sunk Putin's flagship; Russia claims they sunk it themselves":

  1. by Donna on April 15, 2022 9:33 am
    I heard. Outstanding!

    Moscow vows to ‘ramp up’ strikes on the capital Kyiv in response to ‘terrorist attacks’ on Russian territory.

    Our CIA chief is concerned Russia may resort to nuclear weapon use. Zelensky also said that. Given Putin's apparent desperation, I see that as a strong possibility too. I would guess that if Putin starts using nukes, he would start by using so-called "low level" nukes.

    Where do y'all think this is heading?

    cnn.com


  2. by Curt_Anderson on April 15, 2022 9:42 am
    Not in a good direction. I really don't know where this ends. I don't see how Putin can gracefully end this.


  3. by HatetheSwamp on April 15, 2022 10:08 am

    My guess is that Putin may not have the political capital within Russia to do nuclear, or as W would say, "nucular." He may get away, among his own people, with using chemical weapons.

    I think that this is where Trump was correct about Putin being ingenious.

    What Trump said:

    "I went in yesterday and there was a television screen, and I said, 'This is genius.' Putin declares a big portion of the Ukraine -- of Ukraine. Putin declares it as independent. Oh, that's wonderful."

    Your TDS notwithstanding, I think Trump was correct, as I've been saying all along. Putin's move was ingenious. And, Putin can easily practice his ingenuity again.

    He can, simply, declare victory.

    He can use any fractured reasoning he chooses. He's proved that he can get away with it...in Russia. He can withdraw his troops and change the world to stop its sanctions against Russia.

    I think Putin will do what he can to turn the war in Ukraine around. If he fails, my guess is that he'll announce, "We have won. We have achieved our mission."

    And, Trump will call him a genius. And, all TDSers will poop a brick.


  4. by Donna on April 15, 2022 10:18 am
    I'm fine with calling Putin "clever", but Trump has yet to criticize him. A couple of times, Sean Hannity has aired phone calls with Trump, and both times he asked Trump if he thought Putin was "evil", and he dodged answering that and went on to praise Putin for his "genius". I think that will come back to haunt Trump if he runs for president again.







  5. by HatetheSwamp on April 15, 2022 10:50 am

    I think it's a safe bet that I listen to more Trump speeches than do you. I listen very carefully to what he says about this war.

    All he really says is that Vladimir would not have attracted Ukraine if he was still President. And, I think he's right.


  6. by Donna on April 15, 2022 12:00 pm
    I think you're wrong. Trump has never criticized Putin, likely because he sees him as useful to him personally for the purpose of further self-enrichment. He was in the process of negotiating the building of a Trump Tower in Moscow right before he ran for president.

    I think Trump would have been unresponsive to Russia invading Ukraine.


  7. by HatetheSwamp on April 15, 2022 12:24 pm

    I know of no time that Trump has criticized Putin.

    I very strongly believe that Putin would never have moved against Ukraine if Trump was President. But, we'll never know.


  8. by Curt_Anderson on April 15, 2022 12:39 pm
    Putin might not have attacked Ukraine during Trump's presidency, but because of Trump's presidency. Putin hates/fears two things: NATO and democracy. Trump was doing what Putin wanted by undermining NATO and democracy.



  9. by islander on April 15, 2022 1:35 pm

    I know I'm hoping against hope, but it would be wonderful if Putin could be removed by the Russians themselves. However, as this "bloodbath" as one Russian dissenter called it drags on, and the effects of the sanctions start Really taking their toll, who knows what can and can't happen inside Russia.

    I imagine it's possible that before anything like that happens, Putin could pronounce "Mission Accomplished". "The denazification of Ukraine has been successfully completed and we can now start an orderly withdrawal of our brave troops".

    Those are probably the best case scenarios other than Ukraine actually defeating the Russian military (with a little help from her friends).😉


  10. by HatetheSwamp on April 15, 2022 1:47 pm

    Curt,

    Trump is a populist. He's the best thing going for democracy.


  11. by Donna on April 15, 2022 2:34 pm
    I just read the transcript of an interview with Noam Chomsky on Ukraine entitled Noam Chomsky on How To Prevent World War III

    This paragraph sums up Noam's thesis:

    "So I’m not criticizing Zelensky; he’s an honorable person and has shown great courage. You can sympathize with his positions. But you can also pay attention to the reality of the world. And that’s what it implies. I’ll go back to what I said before: there are basically two options. One option is to pursue the policy we are now following, to quote Ambassador Freeman again, to fight Russia to the last Ukrainian. And yes, we can pursue that policy with the possibility of nuclear war. Or we can face the reality that the only alternative is a diplomatic settlement, which will be ugly—it will give Putin and his narrow circle an escape hatch."

    My response:

    So in other words we should ignore Zelensky's desperate pleas for material support and sacrifice all of Ukraine for the good of the world.

    Option #2 isn't our call. President Zelensky has made it clear from Day One that he will fight for "every inch of Ukraine". So if the US were to follow Noam's advice, there would still be a war for all of Donbas and a good portion if not all of eastern Ukraine. And without the help of US or NATO, Putin would win that war. And he wouldn't be apt to stop there. If you remember, the original invasion was designed to conquer all of Ukraine, which is why I wrote what I did in my first paragraph.

    currentaffairs.org


  12. by Donna on April 15, 2022 2:35 pm
    I will remind Hts that Hitler was a populist, too, and that Trump obviously doesn't believe in democracy.


  13. by islander on April 15, 2022 2:47 pm

    Trump is a populist. He's the best thing going for democracy"---Hate

    Could you explain what you mean by that?



  14. by HatetheSwamp on April 15, 2022 2:49 pm

    Yeah.

    Trump's a man of the people. Check out who shows up at his rallies.


  15. by Curt_Anderson on April 15, 2022 2:57 pm
    Hitler got people to show up at rallies too.

    Donna, I cannot agree with Noam Chomsky either. It reminds me of something I saw in a CNN interview. They were interviewing a young woman who worked as a financial journalist but was volunteering her time as an army medic. At one point she says that this war has changed her. The reporter asked how. The woman said "I used to be a pacifist."


  16. by HatetheSwamp on April 15, 2022 3:13 pm

    Yeah, but it's the extraordinarily average people who attend Trump's rallies.


  17. by Curt_Anderson on April 15, 2022 3:16 pm
    It's fair to say they are mostly below average. But they're averageness is not an indication of democracy. Any more was the averageness of the Germans at Hitler's rallies.


  18. by oldedude on April 15, 2022 10:24 pm
    Okay, so first of all, Curt is one of those elitist pricks that believes that everyone that disagrees with him is some podunk hick. This bigotry is evident of many who say they are this or that. Then they try to cover it up and say "welllll, 'most' are this or that." Still a line of nothing but ignorance. For those who are wondering, if the shoe fits... Oh. And BTW, you can't use it on one side, but not the other.

    Like I said earlier, the fact that anyone would actually believe what comes out of Russia as "fact" is stupid beyond belief. They have one facet of the government, and one of the military that does nothing but make up stories about how everything works. You'd have to be a complete moron to actually think you're getting any facts from the Russians. That said, the Ukrainians were trained by the Russians, so they're only a little more reliable.

    I also have posted four posts in the past week or so. None of them are showing. That makes my life on the "blog" even more interesting.


  19. by HatetheSwamp on April 16, 2022 2:35 am

    Curt is one of those elitist pricks that believes that everyone that disagrees with him is some podunk hick.

    I have always tried to convince myself that he's joking when he writes that stuff, but...


  20. by HatetheSwamp on April 16, 2022 2:37 am

    I also have posted four posts in the past week or so. None of them are showing. That makes my life on the "blog" even more interesting. ~OD

    Wassup with that, Curt?


  21. by Donna on April 16, 2022 8:47 am
    Those posts were probably in topic threads that rolled off the first page which you can access by simply clicking on the tab at the bottom of the first page of the topic thread list.


  22. by Curt_Anderson on April 16, 2022 10:13 am
    Donna is correct. Nobody deleted olde dude's old posts. At the bottom of this page is a large button for the most recent posts. With the smaller buttons you can find recent posts by category.


  23. by Donna on April 16, 2022 10:38 am
    I don't understand why anyone would insinuate that you deleted a post. You're the most free-speech-supporting social media administrator I've ever known.


  24. by islander on April 17, 2022 4:43 am

    “ Trump's a man of the people. Check out who shows up at his rallies.”---Hate

    Like Curt said, Hitler, like Trump, had enthusiastic crowds of people at his rallies as well.

    “ Trump is a populist. He's the best thing going for democracy"---Hate

    Again, Trump, like Hitler, is an authoritarian right wing populist. Neither one was the best thing for democracy or their country.


  25. by HatetheSwamp on April 17, 2022 5:30 am

    Hate, isle. Honest hate, but hate nonetheless.


  26. by Curt_Anderson on April 17, 2022 9:48 am
    That isn't hate, HtS. That is islander's low tolerance for BS and ignorance.


  27. by HatetheSwamp on April 17, 2022 9:51 am

    Man! Did OD nail you for elitism the other day, eh, Curt? And, still, you're undaunted.


  28. by Donna on April 17, 2022 9:52 am
    Oh blow it out your ass, Hts - you do the same thing.


  29. by HatetheSwamp on April 17, 2022 10:06 am

    Yeah but OD said it very, very well.


  30. by oldedude on April 17, 2022 9:45 pm
    I find it interesting that others would take issue with that. UNLESS THEYRE GUILTY OF THE SAME THING.


  31. by oldedude on April 17, 2022 9:51 pm
    The defendants of the radical left agenda are supporting the same thing are watching their "ideological" posts they're agreeing to were disproven.


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