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 Psychic Children, Indigo Children, or what ever the label
Author: Rebecca (---.lsanca1.dsl-verizon.net)
Date:   07-06-04 15:55

Lorie, what makes you so angry and afraid? I feel what we need to do for the children of the world is to create places and spaces of Love. To allow everyone to heal and grow without force. We need to focus on what this world needs, instead of who is right and who is wrong. Someone once said that protesting against something should be refocused towards that which we want......peace, love, joy....to create the opposite of what we are protesting. I feel that if everyone listened to their intuition, they would know exactly what to do. and I mean in a positive way. So Lorie, what positive thing can you create in this moment that will put us towards a world of peace, love, and joy? And I don't mean for you to cut people down......how can you raise society up? You are an example for the children of this world....what would you love to show them? How can you contribute to this world in a positive manner? What will you build to empower the children of this world? They really need to have a world of Peace, Love, Joy, and Truth.


Peace & Love

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 Re: Psychic Children, Indigo Children, or what ever the label
Author: Albert Marsh (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date:   07-06-04 21:47

Rebecca, at least I'm not alone in being totally turned off by Lorie's message. Of course it's anger, I hadn't pinned it down to whjat exactly was so off-putting. It's the same old argument isn't it, and we both bought into it. "There's no argument, there's no argument at all." As the sage Van Morrison sang many years ago?

Resistance=persistance.

Albert

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 Re: Psychic Children, Indigo Children, or what ever the label
Author: Lorie Anderson (---.pc.ashlandfiber.net)
Date:   07-07-04 01:25

"So Lorie, what positive thing can you create in this moment that will put us towards a world of peace, love, and joy?"

Truth, not deception, are the stepping stones to peace, love, and joy. I promote honesty and consumer awareness and encourage the honing of our and our kids' "baloney detection" skills (a term coined by Carl Sagan).

Fear and anger need not be feared or condemned on a wholesale basis, as these primal emotions create a gut level feeling, often regarded as "intuition," that prompts us to act to protect ourselves and others, especially our young.

To denounce all opposition to anything as "negative," makes no sense to me. Since two negatives make a positive, my negativity to a negative force such as spurious claims and possible deception would make my position POSITIVE.

On the other hand, your opposition to my commentary would also have to be regarded as "negative" by your own thinking (and certainly it came off to me as condescending and critical, fearful and angry) and thus, it shouldn't be okay either.

Spreading the truth or issuing a deception alert is an act of love in my book. It may elicit angry, fearful, and condescending responses from some like-minded and/or credulous or loyal individuals, but it is an act of love -- sharing my insights and my findings after countless hours of study and writing, acting out of a sense of duty, protectiveness, showing courage to publicly question and challenge outragreous and dubious claims made by public figures.

I've seen evidence of some positive impact of my web pages from email that I have received, including several from individuals who are "new age" thinkers. I'm proud of my web page and so are my husband and my astute children. (Your forced me to toot my own horn, so please don't blame me for doing so.)

I don't make a cent for my efforts. If my writings have benefited even just a few individuals in some way, I feel gratified.

Lorie

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 Re: Psychic Children, Indigo Children, or what ever the label
Author: Lorie Anderson (---.pc.ashlandfiber.net)
Date:   07-20-04 19:13

Here is a link to my article entitled Indigo-the Color of Money:
http://www.selectsmart.com/twyman.html



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 Re: Psychic Children, Indigo Children, or what ever the label
Author: PowerToThePeople 
Date:   04-04-05 15:00

Even Jesus became furious at the money changers. Anger and fear also have their place. All emotions do.

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities" - Voltaire

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 Re: Psychic Children, Indigo Children, or what ever the label
Author: PowerToThePeople 
Date:   04-04-05 15:19

Lorie - Your article is spot on.

The "Indigo Children" craze is the latest offering from the luny new-age community (which I used to be part of).

If these children are indeed "psychic", I would suggest taking them to "The Amazing Randi's One Million Dollar Paranormal Challenge". I'll be their agent - all I ask is 15% of the winnings.

From http://www.randi.org/research/index.html

At JREF, we offer a one-million-dollar prize to anyone who can show, under proper observing conditions, evidence of any paranormal, supernatural, or occult power or event. The JREF does not involve itself in the testing procedure, other than helping to design the protocol and approving the conditions under which a test will take place. All tests are designed with the participation and approval of the applicant. In most cases, the applicant will be asked to perform a relatively simple preliminary test of the claim, which if successful, will be followed by the formal test. Preliminary tests are usually conducted by associates of the JREF at the site where the applicant lives. Upon success in the preliminary testing process, the "applicant" becomes a "claimant."

To date, no one has ever passed the preliminary tests.

***

Also, from your article -

"... they act like royalty, have difficulty with absolute authority unless given choices or explanations, are easily frustrated (e.g. when waiting in line), are not shy, have difficulty with guilt-based discipline, are non-conformist, may seem antisocial and prefer to be with their own kind, and may have social difficulties in school."

That perfectly describes people who have Asperger's Syndrome. I should know - my 17-year old son has Asperger's.

I'm still a very spiritual person, but I have found most new-age beliefs to be unprovable and downright silly.

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities" - Voltaire

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 Re: Psychic Children, Indigo Children, or what ever the label
Author: Tundra Kat 
Date:   04-14-05 00:48

Rebecca,

The Indigo Children hoax is a marketing ploy to sell a book. Of course, no-one will argue against the fact that children need love, but is that the point? The hoax is about some children being psychic creatures from outer space. The only way you can find love at the kernel is by having a brain of cotton wool.

You asked what positive things Lorie can do. I'll answer:
She can debunk all that nonsense so that concerned parents can focus on loving their children and bringing them up without supernatural delusions. Can't a parent love a disabled child sincerely, without such crutches?

You also attribute a lot to intuition. Sadly, sometimes things aren't like we feel they are. All that instinct should be tempered with reason, otherwise we're all suckers for hoaxers who appeal to our basic emotions. Lorie did a great job speaking out against Indigo Children, IMO.

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

You'll be sure to find him resting, or a-licking of his thumbs,
Or engaged in doing complicated long-division sums.

-- T.S. Eliot, 'Macavity: the mystery cat'

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 Re: Psychic Children, Indigo Children, or what ever the label
Author: deanna (---.bankofamerica.com)
Date:   05-21-05 16:48

It's easy to dismiss something that's not scientifically provable, considering science has never defined means of proving the spiritual world. Science will not put forth effort into proving the spiritual aspects of being, it has always been contrary to science because it is contrary to christianity, and christianity is as everyone knows the foundation of america so why would any body in america want to devote time and money to proving a theory which counteracts the foundation of america however false some of us may feel that it is. The indigo movement is an idea which supports theories of energy, and empathy, it supports that children are opening their eyes to the worlds bullshit early on, and no one can deny that. It's unfortunate that poeple would feel threatened by spiritual ideas, when one might utilize the basic concepts to live empathetically, and to maximize their impact on the world. I know that i feel empowered, in my abilities, and have evidence in my own life of such. I don't need america's world of science, or even the world of science which is similarily governed by the closed minded and spiritually bound. I am not surprised to learn that there is no way of proving such theories, in a world of education founded around proving such theories false

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 Re: Psychic Children, Indigo Children, or what ever the label
Author: Tundra Kat 
Date:   05-23-05 03:21

deanna,

I understand that you're American and that imagining other frames of reference may be diffícult. However, the global scientific community is largely indifferent about maintaining the religious foundation of your country. The real reason for its dismissal of spiritualism is that it has failed all tests.

It's important to encourage individualism in children. There are exceptional kids who don't really thrive in a system that forces conformity on them. However, modern psychology can tell you that. There's no need for this "Indigo Children" nonsense to teach us empathy.

Spiritual ideas only scare people of a competing superstition. Those who can dismiss such vanities have a better chance of bringing up a happy child.

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 Re: Psychic Children, Indigo Children, or what ever the label
Author: Brenda (---.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
Date:   06-27-05 23:41

Dear Deana,

You speak of others not being able to think in different frames of mind. What frame of mind were you using when you assumed that all people from a specific country, in this case, America, must all think alike?

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 Re: Psychic Children, Indigo Children, or what ever the label
Author: Brenda (---.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
Date:   06-27-05 23:47

So, then, how do you earn a living? Mopping floors? Waitressing?

Does that make clean floors and food a hoax, because people earn money at them?

And what about all that scientific bullshit that says clean floors will make our lives better. Can you believe those guys, trying to tell us how to live our lives, like, we have to do what they say in our own homes?

Wait a minute, isn't that what caused the plague? Filth? The people who waited for scientific evidence died. The people who discovered that the esential oil of certain plants killed the plague, and that cleanliness prevented it, lived.

You have a hang up about money. If you haven't earned a cent from your writing, it's because it isn't professional, and not enough people will pay for it, even though they will pay for food, and floor cleaning.

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 Re: Psychic Children, Indigo Children, or what ever the label
Author: Brenda (---.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
Date:   06-28-05 07:42

Deanna, my apologies, it should have been Tundra I spoke to. The spirituality Tundra likes to say is American is everywhere. It's very primitive and tribal and shows inner insecurity and arrogance to put everyone who thinks in a certain way all in one country, and to put your particular country, whatever that may be, in a superior light. There are Indigo groups in South Africa, UK, Asia,and everywhere. There are skeptical scientists everywhere, there are fundamental Christians everywhere, there are Buddists everywhere.

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 Re: Psychic Children, Indigo Children, or what ever the label
Author: Clair (---.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
Date:   06-28-05 11:02


Lorie,

Are you familiar with the laws of libel? People like you can't be intelligently spoken to, you have only one agenda, and that is to be right and spread hate. Therefore, as you say, deception such as yours must be monitored by the law.

You have committed libel:

"Well, certainly Twyman has asked for and collected a wealth of donations (sometimes with a required minimum donation and collected using guilt-pressure) and fees. He says that his organization, The Beloved Community, is now a "registered church organization." He purchased 42 acres of property in the local area, (for which he solicited donations to buy)."

The law in our country allows people to earn money, and do things with that money. It allows freedom of religion whether you personally like that religion or not. The church organization that Twyman claims protects all donors from Twyman owning that property himself. Only those who want to benefit from that property donate, and no one has to donate. Twyman's own property is purchased by his own funds, which he has every right to earn. "He" did not purchase anything with other people's donations. Anything "he" purchases with donations belongs to the church, no one has to support it if they don't find benefit from it. And he can't claim it as his own property.

People who don't spread hate, still often disagree. They discuss this, they discuss that, and even though they agree to disagree, they are not afraid of others forms of spirituality or truth. They don't need any protection from self-proclaimed "protectors of the truth" as you like to describe yourself.

You are telling lies. You need to be reported. That would be the best that could happen to you. If not, you will receive by universal law, that which you put out. Others will begin to dig into your personal life, reporting on mental health issues, money fraud, child abuse, all those things you prefer to point out exist in others other than yourself.

And, if you so believe in freedom to report what you choose to claim as deception, why is it that you erase any posts on your site that don't say what you want others to see?

I don't even agree with Twyman's ideas on psychic kids. But some do, and he is following the law that allows people to make their truth public for others to join if they so see fit. You, however, are breaking the law. Grow up. Investigate this so-called money fraud that doesn't exist like an adult who knows how to follow the law. There are already calculated legal ways to do this. Then, when YOU have the supposed real evidence, legally, of these lies you're spreading, that's when you can legally go public with it. You can certainly start your own church or web site as you have done, and try to attract people who believe as you believe, such as that earning money is bad and that Indigos don't exist, but you can't do it illegally.

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 Re: Psychic Children, Indigo Children, or what ever the label
Author: Lorie Anderson 
Date:   06-28-05 11:56

This thread is getting so confusing! Let's see if I can help get it back on track, as I understand it:

Deanna argued that scientists won't even try to prove the spiritual nature of being (like "Indigo" children, I presume) because America is founded on Christianity, which, she seems to be arguing, is anti-spirituality (I assume she is referring to anti-nonChristian spirituality), and that American scientists won't go against Christianity.

She makes many assumptions here, but we can accept this as her opinion.

Tundra then argued that even if that is so, there are scientists all over the world who wouldn't have this constraint, (not being American), and they are still not finding evidence for paranormal abilities.

Tundra also opined that the Indigo child movement is a marketing ploy to sell books. Tundra apparently bases this opinion on the lack of scientific evidence for supernatural abilities (which means no evidence when conditions are carefully controlled against cheating and other possible factors).

Brenda argued then that Tundra must be against people making money for any reason, even to support a family.

But to opine that a movement (in this case the Indigo child movement) is a profit-motivated ploy does not logically imply that every money-making activity is a hoax. Certainly everyone agrees that you can conduct money-making activities for a number of motivating reasons.

Thanks for the discussion.
Lorie



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 Re: Psychic Children, Indigo Children, or what ever the label
Author: Brenda (---.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
Date:   06-28-05 12:33

I think that was recapped very well, Lorie.

What are the reasons, then, that creating a church, publishing and promoting a book, are wrong, other than they are not your favorite books or church? These people are presenting theories. Theories are what give birth to human progress. When enough people demand "proof" the "proof" is then finally funded and presented scientifically. Just because there are no funds yet for scientific research, doesn't mean that any of this has been DIS-proven yet. It just hasn't made its way to that stage yet.

And "proof" is often disproven years later, anyway.

These people take huge risks and time out of their lives to write and get them published. They have no guarantee that others are out there who want to also study their theories or join their churches. No one is being controlled. That's your "church" that you think they're lies. No one is trying to shut you down because of it, but rather, they choose not to support you, as you said, you make no money, although apparently attract people who tell you they like your web site. Those who hate others who have found a way to earn a living from their beliefs, passions and new theories are often hated by those who can't figure out how to do it (and never donate to people like you).

The only constant complaint that consistently shows up here is that these people are bad because they earn money at what they love and believe in, and it happens to not be what you believe in, but you are virtuous because you never get a cent for what you do.

Or that feeding a family is the only reason to earn a living. What if you don't have a family, and you believe that there might be something called electricity, or a great new invention called the telephone? What if such "non-proven theories" had never had anyone believe in them enough to finally prove them in a concrete way? Is it more virtuos to earn money in what you don't believe in?

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 Re: Psychic Children, Indigo Children, or what ever the label
Author: Lorie Anderson 
Date:   06-28-05 20:14

This isn't about someone establishing a church supporting a faith that I don't believe in and writing books that I don't agree with.

I do find it disturbing, though, to see people making highly dubious claims about children having supernatural powers, or altered DNA, and claiming scientific evidence for these claims -- putting kids in the position of either cheating or of being tricked themselves to believe they have such powers.

Science places the onous of "proof" on those making extraordinary claims, like the paranormal. Scientists aren't expected to try to "disprove" anything, especially things that can't be disproven.

Paranormal beliefs and explanations are as old as humankind. And the paranormal has been studied for ages, and is still being studied, and some researchers claim to have found evidence for the paranormal. But studies must be able to be replicated, and stand under carefully controlled conditions. Mainstream scientists just haven't seen paranormal hypotheses stand up to this type of scrutiny.

As I point out in my Indigo commentary, James Randi raised a million dollars, and other organizations have raised additional funds, to challenge proponents of the paranormal to demonstrate their claims under carefully controlled conditions. So far, no one has passed even the preliminary tests. The vast majority of the most well-known paranormal proponents won't even apply; they make excuses or personal accusations, or they expect Randi to "disprove" their paranormal claims. Many people just don't understand how scientific investigation works. I'm making it my business to try to understand it; how about you?

Lorie



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 Re: Psychic Children, Indigo Children, or what ever the label
Author: Lorie Anderson 
Date:   06-28-05 20:37

Clair, your message is hypocritically accusatory and threatening. I can rightfully remove your post if and when I choose, as you did not follow the guidelines for "respectful" postings.

For now, though, I will ask you:

1.Exactly what statements did I make that are not true?

I offered Mr. Twyman a long time ago to point out to me exactly which statements he thinks are not true. He made no comment on anything stated on my Indigo page, from which you quoted.

2.On what basis do you accuse me of removing postings that were unfavorable to my position?

In fact, you can find a number of unfavorable posting here. Most of the grateful and favorable messages that I have received have come through private email.

That's all for now. I gave you much more time and attention than your presumptuous and accusatory post deserves.

Lorie

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 Re: Psychic Children, Indigo Children, or what ever the label
Author: Clair (---.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
Date:   06-28-05 21:16




For now, though, I will ask you:

1.Exactly what statements did I make that are not true?

FOR ONE, YOU LED PEOPLE TO BELIEVE THAT MR. TWYMAN PURCHASED LAND WITH OTHERS' DONATIONS FOR HIMSELF.YOU CLEVERLY USED WORDS TO CREATE THIS FEELING IN PEOPLE. YOU HAVE NO LEGAL PROOF OF THIS AT ALL. IN THIS COUNTRY, WE ARE INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY, NOT GUILTY AS LONG A PRIVATE CITIZEN THINKS THAT MAYBE WE ARE. HE IS USING DONATIONS FOR A CAUSE HE BELIEVES IN, NO ONE HAS TO DONATE. PLUS, YOU ARE TAKING HIS QUOTES IN THE USA TODAY ARTICLE COMPLETELY OUT OF CONTEXT. YOU ARE DECEIVING PEOPLE.

I offered Mr. Twyman a long time ago to point out to me exactly which statements he thinks are not true. He made no comment on anything stated on my Indigo page, from which you quoted.

BUT WHERE IS THE PROOF THAT WHAT YOU SAY IS TRUE? IT'S YOUR WORD AGAINST HIS. YOU STATE OVER AND OVER THAT THERE'S NO PROOF OF MANY THINGS. WHERE IS THE PROOF THAT YOU ASKED HIM, AND HE RECEIVED YOUR REQUEST?

2.On what basis do you accuse me of removing postings that were unfavorable to my position?

THIS: Clair, your message is hypocritically accusatory and threatening. I can rightfully remove your post if and when I choose, as you did not follow the guidelines for "respectful" postings.
I'M STATING THE LAW, YOU FIND IT THREATENING.



That's all for now. I gave you much more time and attention than your presumptuous and accusatory post deserves.

IT'S YOUR FORUM. AMAZING HOW YOU ARE PRESUMPTUOUS AND ACCUSATORY OF MR. TWYMAN, YET CAN'T TAKE WHAT YOU DISH OUT. I CAN START MY OWN FORUM. -- CLAIR

Lorie

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 Re: Psychic Children, Indigo Children, or what ever the label
Author: Brenda (---.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
Date:   06-28-05 21:24

Yes, I see your point, Lorie, especially when kids are involved.

I have to say, though, that I don't personally believe in the Biblical paranormal events such as the parting of the Red Sea, nor Joseph Smiths revelations, nor do I find the practice of the ritual of eating Jesus' body and drinking his blood very inspiring. But, these practices have also gone on since the beginning of time, and I see innocent children programmed to believe them from the day they are born. Mormons who do "break away," as well as Catholics, tell about how difficult it was to break free of the conditioning.

It just seems that believing in theories that can't be proven seems to be what a certain portion of the human population wants to do, and they will risk life to do it in secret if they have to. At least the Beloved Community goes public. Not to say that "just because Mormons, Catholics, and others do it, that makes it okay to do it in yet a new way (spoon bending), but I don't know if attacking this particular group really helps find the core of it. I mean, there are shows on consulting with semi-transparent humanoids with wings (angels), a male God that had sex with a mortal woman and created the half-god (Jesus). It just goes on and on. I sure admit I don't have the answers!

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 Re: Psychic Children, Indigo Children, or what ever the label
Author: Lorie Anderson 
Date:   06-29-05 00:57

In response to Clair:

1. CLAIR SAID: >FOR ONE, YOU LED PEOPLE TO BELIEVE THAT MR. TWYMAN PURCHASED LAND WITH OTHERS' DONATIONS FOR HIMSELF

On the contrary, I specifically spelled out his stated intent for the property.

MY EXACT STATEMENT: "He purchased 42 acres of property in the local area, (for which he solicited donations to buy), for psychic children retreats, to start a Emissary of Light type of monastery, and to house workshops for his new "Seminary of Spiritual Peacemaking." He recently announced a five-year goal of 50 churches worldwide. After graduating from the seminary, Twyman suggests graduates can work with the Indigo and Psychic Children."

2. CLAIR SAID: >YOU ARE TAKING HIS QUOTES IN THE USA
> TODAY ARTICLE COMPLETELY OUT OF CONTEXT. >YOU ARE DECEIVING PEOPLE.

Here is what I quoted Twyman saying recently to USA Today: "Certainly in the scientific realm, this is just a bunch of New Age nonsense."

And here is the actual context of the quote: "Skeptics point out that there's no scientific research backing up the existence of these children, and Twyman, 43, knows that's true. 'Certainly in the scientific realm, this is just a bunch of New Age nonsense,' says Twyman, a writer and musician known as a "peace troubadour" in his hometown of Ashland, Ore. 'But I think anyone with an inquisitive and rational mind can look at many children out there today and say there's something about them." http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2005-05-31-indigo-kids_x.htm

The thrust of my Indigo commentary is that Twyman has sponsored (through Ilchi Lee, and for a fee) seemingly "scientific" experiments on children to demonstrate telekinetic spoonbending, spoonsticking, and blindfolded reading abilities -- things that can easily be explained through nonparanormal means, as my commentary describes.

Now, we see that Twyman is quoted in a USA Today article entitled "Indigo Kids - Does the Science Fly," as saying no, the science does not fly. Suddenly there is no mention of UCI proving psychic children and no mention of the "Brain Respiration" experiments he sponsored. Now he says he bases his contentions on "something about them."

I fail to see where I quoted him "completely out-of-context" and with "deception," as you accuse me. I didn't even include the reporter's stronger statement, the one preceding the quote that I used.

3. I said: I offered Mr. Twyman a long time ago to point out to me exactly
which statements he thinks are not true. He made no comment on anything stated on my Indigo page, from which you quoted.

CLAIR SAYS: > WHERE IS THE PROOF THAT YOU ASKED HIM, AND HE RECEIVED YOUR REQUEST?

Even if I posted all of my correspondence with him, you would undoubtedly accuse me of leaving out certain messages.

You can take a look and see where I noted on my iraqshelter page, a long time ago, that no one, neither Twyman or his attorney or anyone else from The Beloved Community, ever indicated to me any particular statements of mine that were untrue.

4. I asked you: On what do you base your claim that I have previously removed unfavorable posts from this board.

Your answer is that you based that accusation on my later statement to you that I reserve the right to remove your falsely accusing and personally threatening posts.

In other words, your best evidence for that accusation was something that hasn't happened. That was an unsubstantiated accusation.

5. CLAIR SAYS: > I'M STATING THE LAW, YOU FIND IT THREATENING.

I am only after the truth and transparency from someone spear-heading a movement that makes children out to be supernatural little "masters."

I am well aware of libel laws and have endeavored to express only (1) the facts and truth as I can best determine this, based on supporting evidence, and/or (2) my opinions. That is my legal right, it's called Freedom of Speech, an American constitutionally guaranteed right.

Critical commentary of public figures is common and acceptable and in many ways an important means for keeping checks and balances on public figures.


6. CLAIR SAYS: >I CAN START MY OWN FORUM.

Retaliation by making false accusations and personal threats against a private citizen for exercising this constitutionally guaranteed right is not supported by law.

I have your clearly false accusations and personal threats on record here on my web page.

Unless you can discuss and argue your points without further false accusations with malicious intent, I will ban any further posts from my board.

Thank you,
Lorie



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 Re: Psychic Children, Indigo Children, or what ever the label
Author: Clair (---.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
Date:   06-29-05 08:58

LORIE, LET ME START OUT BY SAYING THAT I DON'T, EITHER, BELIEVE IN PSYCHIC CHILDREN AS DESCRIBED BY THE BELOVED COMMUNITY. NOR DO I BELIEVE THAT MY CHRISTIAN NEIGHBORS' CHILDREN WILL BE TRANSFORMED INTO A KINGDOM OF HEAVEN BECAUSE THEY ARE MORE SPECIAL THAN NON-CHRISTIANS, YET THEIR PARENTS TELL THEM THIS EVERY DAY, AND THEY BELIEVE IT. WHY DON'T YOU GO AFTER THEM, ALSO?

YOU STATED:

And here is the actual context of the quote: "Skeptics point out that there's no scientific research backing up the existence of these children, and Twyman, 43, knows that's true. 'Certainly in the scientific realm, this is just a bunch of New Age nonsense,' says Twyman, a writer and musician known as a "peace troubadour" in his hometown of Ashland, Ore. 'But I think anyone with an inquisitive and rational mind can look at many children out there today and say there's something about them." http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2005-05-31-indigo-kids_x.htm


STATING THE ENTIRE QUOTE AS YOU DID HERE APPEARS LESS DECEPTIVE THAT HIGHLIGHTING JUST THE COMMENT ABOUT HOW HE THINKS THE OTHERS IN THE SCIENTIFIC REALM FEEL ABOUT PSYCHIC CHILDREN.


The thrust of my Indigo commentary is that Twyman has sponsored (through Ilchi Lee, and for a fee) seemingly "scientific" experiments

'SEEMINGLY' SCIENTIFIC EXPERIMENTS CONDUCTED BY TWYMAN HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH TWYMAN'S STATEMENT ABOUT WHAT THE REST OF THE SCIENTIFIC REALM FEELS ABOUT THIS.



Now, we see that Twyman is quoted in a USA Today article entitled "Indigo Kids - Does the Science Fly," as saying no, the science does not fly.

NO, HE'S SAYING SCIENTISTS HAVEN'T YET DONE THEIR OWN EXPERIMENTS,HE'S NOT CHANGING HIS MIND ABOUT HIS OWN EXPERIMENTS.

THE ACTUAL SCIENTIFIC EXPERIMENTS ON ALL RELIGIONS ARE JUST NOW BEGINNING.

FOR 2000 YEARS CHRISTIANS HAVE SAID THAT PRAYER WORKS. NOW, AT LAST, THERE'S SCIENTIFIC PROOF. IT TOOK 2000 YEARS FOR AN AUTHENTIC, RATHER THAN "MONEY REWARD DRIVEN SENSATIONALISM" TYPE OF "PROOF" TO FINALLY TAKE PLACE ABOUT PRAYER.

AS FOR THE OFFER FOR $$$$ TO PROVE THIS WHICH IS OFTEN MENTIONED ON THIS FORUM,
JESUS HIMSELF REFUSED PEOPLE WHO OFFERED LARGE AMOUNTS OF MONEY TO "PROVE" THAT GOD EXISTS. SO DO OTHERS IN THIS FIELD.

THEY ARE WAITING FOR THE FUNDS AND SUPPORT FOR AUTHENTIC SCIENTIFIC PROOF. BUT THEY DON'T DROP THEIR FAITH IN THE MEANTIME. THAT'S THEIR RIGHT, AND THEIR RIGHT TO MAKE IT PUBLIC, AND THEIR RIGHT TO TEACH THEIR CHHILDREN ANYTHING THEY WANT TO TEACH THEM.

PERSONALLY, I'M APPALLED THAT MORMONS TEACH THEIR GIRLS THAT BOYS ARE SUPERIOR. AT ONE TIME IN MY LIFE I HATED THEM, AND ATTACKED THEM (LEGALLY AND VERBALLY) AND FOUND IT ONLY EMPOWERED THEM.



Suddenly there is no mention of UCI proving psychic children and no mention of the "Brain Respiration" experiments he sponsored. Now he says he bases his contentions on "something about them."

I TEACH PROFESSIONAL JOURNALIST AND KNOW THAT ONE REPORTERS' ARTICLE ONLY PROVES WHAT THAT REPORTER CHOSE TO ASK AND TO PUT INTO THE ARTICLE. TWYMAN HAS NO INPUT, AS THE INTERVIEWEE, AS TO WHAT QUESTIONS ARE ASKED AND WHAT IS EVENTUALLY PUT INTO THE ARTICLE. THIS ARTICLE 'PROVES' NOTHING.


I fail to see where I quoted him "completely out-of-context" and with "deception," as you accuse me.

SEE ABOVE

Even if I posted all of my correspondence with him,

PLEASE DO POST THEM. NO NEED TO KEEP THEM IN HIDING.

you would undoubtedly accuse me of leaving out certain messages.

MY OPINION IS THAT THIS STATEMENT IS PRESUMPTUOUS, HYPOCRYTICAL, AND ACCUSATORY.


I asked you: On what do you base your claim that I have previously removed unfavorable posts from this board.

Your answer is that you based that accusation on my later statement to you that I reserve the right to remove your falsely accusing and personally threatening posts.

In other words, your best evidence for that accusation was something that hasn't happened. That was an unsubstantiated accusation.

AND YET HERE IT HAS HAPPENED AGAIN, I GUESS I'M A GOOD MIND-READER, ONE OF THOSE PSYCHICS, PERHAPS: "Unless you can discuss and argue your points without further false accusations with malicious intent, I will ban any further posts from my board."

IT'S VERY CLEAR, IN MY OPINION, THAT WITH THE NAME-CALLING AND RUDE STATEMENTS YOU USE WITH OTHERS ON THIS POST WHICH YOU SAY ARE YOUR CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT (PLEASE GO BACK AND COUNT THEM) THAT YOU ARE THE TYPE THAT CAN'T TAKE WHAT YOU DISH OUT. THIS POST WILL NO DOUBT BE REMOVED. I DO HAVE IT COPIED AND FILED, THOUGH.


5. CLAIR SAYS: > I'M STATING THE LAW, YOU FIND IT THREATENING.

I am only after the truth and transparency from someone spear-heading a movement that makes children out to be supernatural little "masters."

JUST AS CATHOLICS, AS THE OTHER POST ELUDED TO, TEACH LITTLE KIDS THAT ONLY THEY WILL BE REBORN INTO HEAVEN AS ANGELS. WHERE'S THE SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE OF THAT? WHY AREN'T YOU GOING AFTER CATHOLICS?

I am well aware of libel laws and have endeavored to express only (1) the facts and truth as I can best determine this, based on supporting evidence, and/or (2) my opinions.

ONCE YOU MAKE IT PUBLIC, WITH THE EXCEPTION OF PRIVATE LETTERS AND FORUMS, YOU CAN BE TAKEN TO COURT FOR MAKING FALSE ACCUSATIONS THAT HAD NO PROOF THAT CAUSED DAMAGE TO THE ONE ACCUSED.

That is my legal right, it's called Freedom of Speech, an American constitutionally guaranteed right.

AND IN AMERICA, THERE'S ALSO FREEDOM OF RELIGION.

Critical commentary of public figures is common

SO ARE LAWSUITS THAT RIGHTFULLY RETALIATE. THE YELLOW JOURNALISM THAT REPORTS LIES ON MOVIE STARS IS ALWAYS BEING SLAPPED WITH LAWSUITS, AND THE PUBLICATIONS LOSE. THE PROBLEM IS, THE PUBLICATIONS HAVE SO MANY READERS, AND ARE SO WEALTHY WITH THEIR ADVERTISING REVENUE, THAT THE RELATIVELY SMALL AMOUNTS, 10,000 TO 100,000 MAXIMUM THAT CAN BE RECOVERED BY THE MOVIE STARS,STILL KEEPS THE PUBLICATIONS IN THE BLACK. PLUS, THE MOVIE STARS AND OTHER FIGURES FINALLY JUST GIVE UP, AND THE PUBLICATIONS KNOW THIS.

IT ISN'T WORTH THEIR ENERGY, BECAUSE THERE ARE SO MANY HUMANS WHO JUST LOVE TO FIND FILTH ABOUT OTHERS, AND WILL SUPPORT IT. YOU HAVE AN EASY AUDIENCE.

THERE IS A HUGE, EASY, CROWD WHO WILL FOLLOW LIKE SHEEP.

and acceptable and in many ways an important means for keeping checks and balances on public figures.

THIS IS WHAT I'M DOING WITH YOU, YOU ARE NOW A PUBLIC FIGURE, CONSIDERED A 'CRITIC' AND QUOTED BY OTHERS.


6. CLAIR SAYS: >I CAN START MY OWN FORUM.

Retaliation by making false accusations and personal threats against a private citizen for exercising this constitutionally guaranteed right is not supported by law.

YOU ARE NOW A PUBLIC FIGURE, AND THERE'S NOT A SINGLE PERSONAL THREAT. THERE IS EXPRESSION OF SPIRITUAL BELIEF: THAT WHAT IS GIVEN SHALL COME BACK TO THE GIVER. A HOPE TO PROTECT YOU FROM THIS, NOT AN OFFER TO BE THE ONE TO DO IT, WITH THE EXCEPTION OF STARTING MY OWN FORUM, WHICH COULD BE ABOUT ANY TOPIC, NOT ABOUT YOU, WHICH ANYONE, ANYWHERE, CAN DO. AND THERE ARE EXAMPLES OF WHAT IT WOULD FEEL LIKE IF OTHERS TREATED YOU AS YOU TREAT THEM.




Thank you,
Lorie

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 Re: Psychic Children, Indigo Children, or what ever the label
Author: mason (---.11thav01.fl.comcast.net)
Date:   06-29-05 13:05

the laws that set up religions as tax free cows are very liberal to anyone claiming anything as a religous belief...

anytime crimes, fraud, or abuse of anykind is suspect..the appropiate civil authorities should be notified, and evidence given to them for investigation...this has been the outing of many a religious scheme...

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 Re: Psychic Children, Indigo Children, or what ever the label
Author: Clair (---.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
Date:   06-29-05 15:00

Many fraudulant supposed religions have been shut down, and, yes, the appropriate authorities, rather than private citizens who don't believe in their metaphysical outlook, should be notified.


As well, many good people such as Mother Theresa are perpetually heckled, criticized for their money making plans, and so on the other end, private citizens who appoint themselves as authorities also abuse their right to their opinion, by slowing down the work and new discoveries being made in the metaphysical realm, and bothering those who do believe these things to be true on faith, and don't need nor require science.

And in spite of the fact that there is no scientific evidence that Jesus is with us at all times, in our country, we have the right to raise our kids according to the religious belief of our choice.

To tell a Latter Day Saint that there is no scientific evidence that there is no veil up in Heaven and that they are not transporting the dead past that veil when they pray for them in their temple... and so therefore they are fraudulant and must be shut down,is a waste of time in our country. Europeans came here to pursue freedom of religion. Mormons spend money on huge, beautiful temples, travel, eat well, and all their members choose -- because this is a free country -- to tithe 10 percent to them. They can step out of that religion any time they choose.

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 Re: Psychic Children, Indigo Children, or what ever the label
Author: Brenda (---.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
Date:   06-29-05 15:15

What does a person do, then, if they're concernned about Twyman, Mormons, Catholics, and what those people are doing to their kids? I know that Mormons have called "heathen" parents of children, telling them that THEY are the ones abusing their kids by teaching them incorrect religious or athiest information. What's the answer, then?

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 Re: Psychic Children, Indigo Children, or what ever the label
Author: Lorie Anderson 
Date:   06-29-05 17:48

As I see it, claims of paranormal abilities are secular, the same as those made by Uri Geller and Sylvia Browne and Natasha, "the girl with the x-ray eyes." Their claims are certainly (and rightfully) scrutinized and criticized, but somehow, now, Twyman's paranormal fork-bending, mind-reading, and spoon sticking claims should be immune to criticism -- on the basis of religious freedom?! I don't think so. I think that position distracts us from the matter at hand.

And even if these claims are to be seen as religious: Yes, of course we can choose to criticize and question the factual basis of any and all religious supernatural claims. You aren't taking away anyone's rights by offering commentary. Yes, warnings by people who perceive danger or deception in certain religious organizations (e.g. manipulative and dangerous "cults") could help other people. We must be able to weigh various values against each other in each situation: religious freedom, freedom of speech, consumer protection, anti-defamation.

Take Benny Hinn, for example. Should all the victims and skeptics and scientific investigators who are concerned about people getting conned by him just shut up? If so, then say goodby to 20-20, Dateline, to all investigative journalism, etc.

Btw, not everyone who promotes and supports the Indigo child movement will be happy to see this being turned into a religious belief. Some people are using this concept in educational institutions that are not regarded as religious. And some proponents insist there is scientific proof. Twyman insists it is a real thing. There is no reason to believe that paranormal abilities are beyond testing using current scientific methods. It's rather pretty easy to test.

Often Attorney Generals won't even touch a case unless it is extreme and unless there is a public outcry first from citizens and volumes of complaints - meanwhile the activities continue.

I have heard Attorney Generals admit they don't like to touch religious organizations and that it's a safety net for many exploitive and abusive organizations. They also just don't have the time or resources to investigate everyone's reports of deception. Not all deception is actionable, and not everyone has the money to pursue legal action. Sometimes we have to act as a community and warn each other.

Sometimes states extend warnings about certain organizations or individuals. I believe the state of Oregon extends a notice to the public that the Beloved Community's seminary is not an approved degree-granting institution, after they had offered a degree granting program without state approval.


Lorie



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 Re: Psychic Children, Indigo Children, or what ever the label
Author: Clair (---.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
Date:   06-29-05 18:52

Lorie, this was beautifully stated by you:

"We must be able to weigh various values against each other in each situation: religious freedom, freedom of speech, consumer protection, anti-defamation."

Sometimes you sound angry to some people, and so do I, and you and I and everyone else has this right and perhaps we don't care how we come across to people. But, here, you sound graceful, confident, and inspiring. Not that you care, just wanted to share my opinion. -- Clair

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 Re: Psychic Children, Indigo Children, or what ever the label
Author: Mandy (---.range86-136.btcentralplus.com)
Date:   12-14-05 16:24

I have a daughter with ADHD and have worked for many years to help her in life. My daughter has now had no schooling for 8 months and is now in care. Why! I here everyone asking. Because she became involved with a boy and his family who convinced her to stop the ritalin because she is a so called "Indigo Child" she now sees me as the enemy and although social services and I have tried everything to get her to see how much I love her, they make sure she is never out of their contact.

Today 2 weeks before she was due to spend xmas with me she has decided she doesnt want anything more to do with me. She is 14 and believes that her and her boyfriend are special and his parents are their protectors. The reality is she has a biological brain disorder and has been brain washed by a looney cult. I have lost my daughter because of all you false prophets. So next time you have a looney idea keep it to yourselves or get yourselves a shrink.

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 Re: Psychic Children, Indigo Children, or what ever the label
Author: Lorie Anderson 
Date:   12-15-05 17:49

I'm so sorry to hear about this. This is the kind of damage that I feel is inevitable with the supernatural "Indigo" child movement.
It sounds like you are working with social services in your area, and I hope that your daughter comes around eventually.

This is just a thought, I'm not an authority or expert by any means on such matters and I don't know the details of your situation, but perhaps it would help if you and/or the social services worker could investigate these people who are trying to lure her into their circle, e.g. to see if they have a criminal or civil court record; maybe they have done this type of thing before with other kids. Sometimes hearing the facts and seeing the evidence can turn a kid around.

This general approach helped when I was a volunteer jail counselor, long ago; I helped a teen prostitute realize that her pimp was using her and that he was not really in love with her as she had believed -- something that would seem obvious to you and me, I'm sure.

Lorie



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 Re: Psychic Children, Indigo Children, or what ever the label
Author: mandy (---.range86-144.btcentralplus.com)
Date:   12-21-05 18:21

Thanks Lorie, The trouble is social services believe this family, who denie all knowledge of indigo children beliefs. Yes they have done it before but the people who were involved dont want to talk to social services for fear of retribution. So I sound more like the looney everyday. However my local police are taking me seriously after 8 months of reports. Even my daughter claims that this is all made up by me. However did slip up in front of someone when asked about the book.

Reply To This Message
 
 Re: Psychic Children, Indigo Children, or what ever the label
Author: Lorie Anderson 
Date:   12-22-05 12:31

Glad to hear you're making some headway with the police, at least.

I didn't realize that a minor can simply join another family without the parents' permission or without the adults obtaining legal guardianship. I am baffled.

Share only what you care to, remembering that this is a public forum.

Take care,
Lorie



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 Re: Psychic Children, Indigo Children, or what ever the label
Author: mandy (---.range86-142.btcentralplus.com)
Date:   12-22-05 17:45

I had to put my daughter into voluntary care. Because she was so out of hand due to the interference from this family. She doesnt live with them she has a foster parent. But is there most of the time. In England if you leave home at 14 as long as you live with somone over 18 you cant be removed as long as you say you are safe. The laws an ass.

Reply To This Message
 
 Re: Psychic Children, Indigo Children, or what ever the label
Author: Gaia (---.dialup.sfldmi.ameritech.net)
Date:   01-14-06 05:48

Just my 2 cents, but I never bought into the
Indigo movement, even though I am very involved
(and maybe because of) in encouraging the
development of intuition and the birthright of
our high sensory abilities. I believe people
of all kinds have always been special , and
none of the descriptions of "indigo children"
sound like anything new to me at all- I was
like that and born in the 50's. Additionally,
this whole bit about making people "special"
and "different" is quite separating.

If this person (Lori) is investigating how
people are 1) possibly fooled by others riding
out a movement 2) easily swayed to make a buck
by riding out a wave of sentiment which
plays on our hopes and fears - so be it.

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