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Does God Ever Change His Mind?

Posted by Anonymous User 
Re: Does God Ever Change His Mind?
October 05, 2007 12:56PM
> That doesn't make much sense. It's like you expect God
> to know the future but not the present.

What is the present to a God which knows everything from the very beginning?
Re: Does God Ever Change His Mind?
October 05, 2007 01:45PM
No present in eternity.

[uk.geocities.com]

--
Georgeous

http://img2.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/bacbafa493.gif
Re: Does God Ever Change His Mind?
October 05, 2007 02:50PM
Hence, if we are part of the creation of such an (all knowning) God, all our acts ('good' and 'evil') all were effectively from God, which knows fully what it was doing at the instant of creaton. What it will be doing after creation is irrelevant and inconsistent with its omniscence nature. THis is since, for an omniscent (AND Omnipotient) being, it does not have to do anything further after that first 'flick of the finger' which sets everything in motion perfectly accordingly to its desire.

But what if its only Omniscent but NOT Omnipotent?

Lets examine this (Showing by Contradiction):-
Lets say it is not Omnipotient, and somehow lacks the full capability to create our world perfectly as he wanted from the initiation/start. That is, he needs to perturb the course of event along the evolution of events within its creation, to coax those events towards its 'intention'. However, it still has its property of Omniscence!!! Hence all the action which it would be taking later on can be regarded as nothing more than known 'events' that was/is bound to occure anyway...provided there are no other God-beings that could work against it. That is to say, iff ONE omniscence being exist in {existance}, then it is equilvalent to saying that it is also omnipotient. i.e. Both are dependent qualities under the condition that only there exists one and only one acting God, within the span of Existance itself. Note also that the (more obvious) reverse relation: That an Omnipotent God has to be Omniscent, is also true.

Hence prayers is more like God making people pray to IT due to events that IT designed to occure so that IT could respond to them. SUPERFLUOUS!!! Since all actions that have been just described are effectively God's action. Further (quoted from my earlier posts): That the Christian God, IT sacrisficing ITSELF (as Jesus) to ITSELF to circumvent a rule (Sin) IT ITSELF made...is equally superfluous.

This Creator-Of-All-Things has to have already allocated individuals of present, past and future into heaven and hell from the very beginning too. To the 'believers'; in another words: Your place in Heaven/Hell was already predetermined even 'before' (whatever that means) creation. It makes no sense for the Omniscent creator to not 'see it coming' (so to speak) and having to modify its omniscent decisions later on. Weather a sinner repent or not, WAS and MUST BE designed to be so from the very 'beginning' in perfect accordance to the creator's intension(s).

THere's no degree of freedom within the framework of its creation's design to allow for freewill. All events which occured, everything that we do, within an omniscent being's creation has to be effectively and ultimately its own doing. - Like a perfectly executed strike in a billard game where the person who've executed the strike of the first white ball, knows perfectly where all the balls on the table would land once they come to rest.

And...That was what have been argued along this thread by the various non-theistic contributors...



Edited 11 time(s). Last edit at 10/05/2007 07:02PM by Wade.
Re: Does God Ever Change His Mind?
October 08, 2007 06:06PM
Henry wrote, Then people who pray, pray when God knows that they will pray and they can pray at no other time.

Knowing that someone will pray at a specific time in the future doesn't imply God is causing people to pray. It only implies special knowledge on God's part of how a free agent will act. If free will exists, God has to know all possible paths a person could travel, not just the actual path.

Omnipotence implies omniscience because only the greatest of beings knows all. Omnipotence also implies omnipresence because the greatest conceivable being has to be eternal and infinite, existing everywhere. If God isn't all-knowing and everywhere, I can conceive of a greater being. Omnipotence implies maximal greatness. i.e. perfection in every way.
Re: Does God Ever Change His Mind?
October 08, 2007 06:33PM
tuk22 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Knowing that someone will pray at a specific time
> in the future doesn't imply God is causing people
> to pray. It only implies special knowledge on
> God's part of how a free agent will act. If free
> will exists, God has to know all possible paths a
> person could travel, not just the actual path.

Is it like us being able to predict the PROBABILITY of all possible positions a 'particle' can be at in according to its wavefunction in Quantum Mechanics, but not being able to work out its precise position if its momentum is known to some finite degree of precision?

So in a similar sense, base from what you've described in regards to God's qualities, implies that to God, it doesn't really know exactly what we are going to do!!! There is some 'fuzzy' elements/components in which of our next action may be. It might be able to work out a probablity for a range of possible actions we may take the very next moment, but is not able to KNOW which one it is. And this fuzzyness gets "fuzzier" further down in time from the present!!! Also it implies that God operates within time, and obeys the Thermodynamics Law of ever and strictly increasing entropy for every actions it take, every thoughts it make! It essentially follows the (so-called) 'Arrow of time' like everything else within this universe!!! And hence IT have to wait until things actually DO finally happen to know it exactly as it is, JUST LIKE THE REST OF US!!!

The precision of its 'knowledge' of what will actually happen approaches exactitude as IT'S relative present-moment approaches the time where IT is allowed to make an observation of that event; at maybe some general other POV relative to it. LIKE US!!!

HENCE: How can such a being be said to be Omniscent?..or even Omnipotent?

Also, the above discussions revealed problems with the idea of such a non-omniscent being's omnipresent property. How can it only know our future actions as probabilistic if it is everywhere within spacetime. I'll expound on that area if later necessary. =)

>God has to know all possible paths a
> person could travel, not just the actual path.

Once again (w/o using QM-terms), simply: If God knows the ACTUAL path to absolute precision, then there is no need for a probabilistic accessment. There is only JUST one path, and no other possiblilities. Otherwise, there'll be a contradiction.

In another words, probability accessment (within possibilities) is basically a logical tool for us to narrow down the unknowns base on what we do currently know. IMO, The concept of Possibilities is necessitate only by an existing Ignorance. i.e. If things are known to absolute precision, the concept of possibilities is unnecessary.

Omniscent Creator -> Creation must be w/o freewill.
Non-Omniscent Creator -> Freewill of Creations is allowed.

See Also:-
Can an Omniscent (All Knowing) Being ITSELF have Free will?



Edited 9 time(s). Last edit at 10/08/2007 07:23PM by Wade.
Anonymous User
Re: Does God Ever Change His Mind?
May 23, 2008 09:42PM
being outside of time and KNOWING the outcome is NOT the same as pre-ordaining it.
Re: Does God Ever Change His Mind?
May 24, 2008 08:54AM
rob Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> being outside of time and KNOWING the outcome is
> NOT the same as pre-ordaining it.

That's a good way of putting it.

--
Georgeous

http://img2.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/bacbafa493.gif
Re: Does God Ever Change His Mind?
May 24, 2008 10:51AM
rob Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> being outside of time and KNOWING the outcome is
> NOT the same as pre-ordaining it.


IT is the same IFF God is 'outside of time' [sic] and IS the (omnipotient) Creator. He's first flick of his fingers decides all the outcomes later WHICH he would had already known even from the "beginning" so to speak.

What is "outside of time" btw? Do you even know what this "outside of time" that you mentioned even means? Can there even be "action" outside of time?
Anonymous User
Re: Does God Ever Change His Mind?
May 27, 2008 09:11PM
wade
it is not the same thing.you can make a free will decision that is known by a being possessing all knowledge without it causing your decision. yes, being outside of time is confusing for a temporal being, but give up the idea of "god knowing it before" as there is no "before" for this being.
depends what you mean by action, and time from whose perspective. relativity, 'member?
Re: Does God Ever Change His Mind?
May 28, 2008 06:44AM
Hi rob,

rob Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> yes, being outside of time is confusing for a temporal
> being

...aka such as yourself?

If so, then I'd reckon that you know naught what you were talking about.

Yes things like Quantum Mechanics for instance, it is near impossible to talk about what's really going on; the actual precise processes and all. But the Scientists are aware that beyond the "physical" realms, at the "observables" so to speak, the rests are all just interpretations. But no matter what or how its interpreted, we know that it works; even if we can't accurately picture how in our mind...But its all good since the solutions all follows through within the framework of Mathematics (aka logic) which leads to solid empirical evidence; which is what counts.

On the other hand, this thing you've called "God" which has properties vaguely ascribed to it and isn't really well defined; has this supposed property of "being outside of time"? How can you claim to KNOW and make statements about something like that about such an unknown-able being with such confidence?

What does outside of time really mean? How can this God "DO" anything OUTSIDE OF TIME? Is God really above logic? If so, then there's no point arguing; since the arguments put fourth too wouldn't be based on 'logic' any more.

Again, I still don't get how can the creations of an all powerful being which supposedly knows everything could possibly possess free will (See my more thorough arguments above to Tuk, and on the first page of this thread to Tony). And I've also argued against such being's ITSELF of having free will (see: [www.selectsmart.com])

Please enlighten.

Cheers,
Wade
Re: Does God Ever Change His Mind?
May 28, 2008 06:48AM
Also Rob,

See this argument by Henry:

> The OP refers to God's omniscience as it relates
> to prayer, not to God's omnipotence.
>
> If God is omniscient then God knows the future.
> Thus, God already knows when a prayer will be said
> and what the prayer will be about. He also knows
> what will happen in the aftermath of the prayer
> before the prayer is ever prayed.
>
> If God doesn't know these things then God doesn't
> know everything and is not omniscient.

...
...


>If God knows today that someone's two-year-old daughter
>will recover from a serious life-threatening injury in
>2010 then that little girl will recover from that injury
>at that time no matter what else happens.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/28/2008 06:49AM by Wade.
Anonymous User
Re: Does God Ever Change His Mind?
May 30, 2008 11:14PM
wade
many areas of valid knwoledge are outside the realm of pure empirical science.
the existence of an entity very like the christian god is necessitated by the existence and nature of the universe. this can be demonstrated by reason. logic, and accepted scientific principles. in order to rationally claim otherwise, you must posit that the universe did not really begin to exist, and THAT is pure speculation with no scientific basis whatsoever.
Re: Does God Ever Change His Mind?
May 31, 2008 05:07PM
rob Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> wade
> many areas of valid knwoledge are outside the
> realm of pure empirical science.
> the existence of an entity very like the christian
> god is necessitated by the existence and nature of
> the universe. this can be demonstrated by reason.

How? Please elaborate instead of making empty claims.

> logic, and accepted scientific principles. in
> order to rationally claim otherwise, you must
> posit that the universe did not really begin to
> exist, and THAT is pure speculation with no
> scientific basis whatsoever.

You keep quoting science as supportive of your Christian believes. You keep making assertions, but have not bothered to present your reasoning. Hence, I simply do not believe you. winking smiley

Again, if you're interested:
I've previously put forth my reasoning (see above posts, and links provided) as to why the creations and the creator itself could not logically have 'freewill' IF it is all knowing and omnipotent. Hence, ANY omniscient and omnipotent gods couldn't logically exist. Agree?
Anonymous User
Re: Does God Ever Change His Mind?
June 04, 2008 08:30PM
i'll begin very simply
science says all events have causes, and that nothing can cause itself to begin to exist. science also says the universe did begin to exist. therefore, the universe needs a cause outside of itself.
Re: Does God Ever Change His Mind?
June 04, 2008 11:25PM
Rob,

How does that even point to a God?

...Why not say, instead, of a continuity of more general physical laws...etc



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/04/2008 11:37PM by Wade.
Anonymous User
Re: Does God Ever Change His Mind?
June 05, 2008 12:07AM
what physical laws could cause the universe to begin to exist?
it points to a cause sufficient to cause the universe of matter/energy and time to begin to exist. then we need to look at what necessary properties that cause must have. logically, that description begins to look suspicisouly like the christian concept of god.
i am not aware of any general physical laws that could begin to describe or explain the universe itself. unless i am wrong, such a line of thought would be pure unevidenced speculation that contradicts the way we do reason and science.
Re: Does God Ever Change His Mind?
June 05, 2008 08:51AM
rob Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> what physical laws could cause the universe to
> begin to exist?
> it points to a cause sufficient to cause the
> universe of matter/energy and time to begin to
> exist. then we need to look at what necessary
> properties that cause must have. logically, that
> description begins to look suspicisouly like the
> christian concept of god.

Again. How is that so?
And, why specifically "Christian-God"?

What are the reasoning(s) which you did not provide that you are so certain that you KNOW with so much certainty, the cause for this universe?

Note that if you've read more closely to what I've said, I've never said that I know anything prior to the formation of this universe. At this point in time, all are merely speculations. What I've only did was that I've suggested that it is more natural and intuitive to think that there's a continuity of some physical meaning towards a more generalised description beyond our universe which exist.

> i am not aware of any general physical laws that
> could begin to describe or explain the universe
> itself. unless i am wrong, such a line of thought
> would be pure unevidenced speculation that
> contradicts the way we do reason and science.

Of course there isn't currently any complete existing meta-universe general physical model which describes conclusively the formation of this universe...There are some aspects to String theory which looks promising enough though...but mathematical physics is beyond my area of studies...and am certainly no expert in that field to comment. But it wouldn't take much of a leap of faith to think that existence is probably a continuity. I.e. the non-personal Naturalistic-Pantheist God encompasses all of existence.
[www.pantheism.net]

Anyway, I'll leave it at that for now.
I'll return to respond to your replies more properly in two weeks time. winking smiley

Cheers,
Wade



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/05/2008 08:55AM by Wade.
Re: Does God Ever Change His Mind?
June 14, 2008 08:21PM
rob Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> wade
> many areas of valid knwoledge are outside the
> realm of pure empirical science.

Guess I only have one more thing to add.
Knowledge are based on observations. Observations which can have varying degrees of precision, and certainty/uncertainty.

What that is COMPLETELY not observable, perfectly "invisible" to verifiable experiences cannot be called KNOWLEDGE.
Re: Does God Ever Change His Mind?
June 14, 2008 09:58PM
An equivalent title to this thread could also be:
Does God Ever Change His Mood?

i.e. One moment, its a frightening monster that kills innocent children, and starts wars, demands blood-sacrifice...etc...And the next moment, its a like a nice little puppy.

Its more like an imprinting of the personalities of the respective prophets into an image of this "God" creature. i.e. the barbaric and cruel Moses Vs kind and compassionate Jesus's God and Vs the pedophillic, violent and warmongering Muhammad "God".
Re: Does God Ever Change His Mind?
June 16, 2008 10:57PM
Bad comparisons with artificial characters.
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