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I saw 2 UFOs about midnight PST 9/18-9/19

Posted by Hornswoggle 
Re: I saw 2 UFOs about midnight PST 9/18-9/19
January 18, 2014 11:01AM
Yes, I agree. As I mentioned, there is no particular number or even a range of numbers that equals "a great number." It is extremely vague, even to the point of meaninglessness in the context we're using it in here. So can you be a bit more specific? Approximately what number of unidentified sightings do you have in mind when you say that there have been a great number of unidentified sightings? 200? 2000? 20000? 200000? 2 million? More?

My point here is that of all the things seen in the sky by anyone since just after WWII, even if none of those things were the result of alien activity, shouldn't we expect a number of them -- even a "great number of them" (depending on what someone calls a great number) -- to be and to remain unidentified?

I think we all agree that it would be a very odd state of affairs indeed if everything seen in the sky at anytime by anyone was always positively and conclusively identified. So the fact that some things aren't so identified should come as no surprise to anyone and is evidence not for alien visitation but, given the imperfections inherent in that little gooey ball of perceptual and cognitive equipment called the human brain that we have to work with, is instead evidence for normalcy.

And actually, yes, I confess that I thought I remembered that you had implied in the past that, given the number of unidentified sightings, this implied something suspicious was going on in our atmosphere. But perhaps that was one of our resident UFOlogists or maybe some other ones I've read about somewhere else and not you. Whatever is the case there, it's pretty well established that this is taken by the UFO community to be evidence of extraterrestrial activity. Sorry, though, if my memory was flawed with regard to your having expressed that belief.
Re: I saw 2 UFOs about midnight PST 9/18-9/19
January 19, 2014 02:47AM
Edit : PTTP, do not read this, it is way too long for you. I'm hanging out with Dick, and you know that makes my post grow in size.

Dick,

I think you introduce the variable of "everything seen in the sky" unnecessarily, and this is a complaint of the Believers' that rings true to me. Obviously, the vast majority of sightings of things in the sky are immediately identifiable, with great confidence, given sufficiently clear observing conditions: clouds, birds, the sun, the moon, airplanes, stars, planets. Even when conditions are not optimal, an adult's perceptions are acclimated to distortions enough that they can still identify the moon through thin clouds, say, or perhaps a bright star that peeks through the leaves of a tree as I drive beneath it. But for the most part, believers do not make a big deal about sightings where the observations clearly fit the profile of the moon seen through thin clouds, or a bright star seen through the leaves of a tree. To my perception, they don't seem to make a big deal about seemingly innocuous events like that.

So in response to — out of "all the of the untold number of things seen in thesky, we should expect a certain number of things should remain unidentified" — while I agree, I think a better question is, "Should we expect former military officers to claim that bright lights flew around their base, exhibiting behavior which they interpreted as intelligent, and shone a focused beam of light down on the missile silos?" ... and, "Shoud we expect that hundreds of people would perceive a formation of lights to pass over a city?"

To be clear — my answer to those two questions is, "Yes, we should expect that. This world, and our experience, is large and varied enough to expect behavior that is that anomalous, and leave it explained by psychology or simply leave it unexplained, rather than resort to theories of ET visitation." But my point is that the way you phrase things seems dismissive of the Believers' stance. They don't start with "all of the things in the sky" and narrow their attention down to "Those things that are not immediately explainable." They go farther, and narrow their attention down to, "Those things that seem FAR outside of our everyday experience."



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/19/2014 02:57AM by Navy2711.
Re: I saw 2 UFOs about midnight PST 9/18-9/19
January 19, 2014 04:59AM
Navy wrote: But for the most part, believers do not make a big deal about sightings where the observations clearly fit the profile of the moon seen through thin clouds, or a bright star seen through the leaves of a tree. To my perception, they don't seem to make a big deal about seemingly innocuous events like that.

Just to be clear about what's being said here, do you believe that there are "a great number" of UFO sightings of the type in which former military officers claim that bright lights flew around their base, exhibiting behavior which they interpreted as intelligent, or in which hundreds of people perceive a formation of lights to pass over a city?

If so, I have to disagree with you. IMO, those sorts of sightings are relatively few.

You know (or at least I assume you know) that some UFOlogists use the "great number" of unidentified sightings as evidence that something strange is going on. This is the reason that I believe it's rather important to get at exactly what is meant by the phrase "great number." So by "great number" of unidentified sightings, do you believe UFO believers refer to the kinds of sightings that you talk about above or do you believe that by "great number" of sightings they refer not only to those few of the sort you reference but also to the vast number of anonymous and, frankly, bizarre or even ridiculous sightings that people report almost every night of the year?

The point is, extremely few alleged sightings are truly intriguing (even if intriguing only to us non-scientist types). The vast number of UFO sightings are no more than mildly interesting, at best, and downright comical, at worst, to anyone who isn't a true believer and who accepts virtually any UFO account, no matter how simplistic, as evidence of alien activity.

For example, if someone says that he stood directly underneath a gigantic metallic spacecraft, looking up at it dumbfoundedly while it hovered quietly only a few feet above his head, why isn't this claim dismissed as being almost certainly mistaken just based on the known laws of physics alone?

The same goes for an extremely large craft that allegedly zips around the sky at tremendous speeds while making hairpin turns. Do you think the people who report these kinds of stories have any idea of the g-forces involved??? Yet people take these tales seriously based on nothing more than alleged eyewitness testimony.

Anyone who accepts someone else's word even though that word contradicts the law of gravity is not a person who can be reasoned with. In a nutshell, that descriptions applies to most of the UFO-true-believer crowd.
Re: I saw 2 UFOs about midnight PST 9/18-9/19
January 19, 2014 05:03AM
Navy wrote: I'm hanging out with Dick, and you know that makes my post grow in size.


Well, I'll take that as a compliment but I should also tell you that I'm a happily married man.
Re: I saw 2 UFOs about midnight PST 9/18-9/19
January 19, 2014 05:47AM
Dick,

I see what you're saying in the above post. We're mostly in agreement on the "large number" issue. I'm willing to continue it, but you often use questions as part of constructing your point, so I'm not sure which, if any, you were looking for answers on.

___________

You and I disagree on dismissing claims of large craft hovering silently and making hairpin turns based on known physics alone. To make such a claim, you would have to demonstrate the physical impossibility, or at least physical high unlikelihood, of such a thing, not just the technological unlikelihood.

While I think it doubtful that mankind possesses the ability to do such things, what physical law(s) would prevent a technologically advanced race from accomplishing such things?

Incidentally, something that does catch my attention about those hairpin turns is that I've never heard mention of attendant sonic booms and/or visual distortions around the craft caused by atmospheric compression. Although I suppose ET could possess technology to control the atmosphere in the immediate vicinity. There's always a "but what if?" when you're talking about ET. It seems more likely to me that such an advanced race would have fully mastered stealth, or wouldn't give a f*ck about it at all.
Re: I saw 2 UFOs about midnight PST 9/18-9/19
January 20, 2014 03:54PM
Q: Do you think this machine, if equipped with LED lighting strung in appropriate places, could fool anyone into believing they'd seen an alien spacecraft?

[www.youtube.com]

A: No doubt about it.

So which is more likely: that someone actually sees beings from another civilization doing wheelies in our atmosphere or that he sees some earthling out having fun with his new toy?
Re: I saw 2 UFOs about midnight PST 9/18-9/19
January 20, 2014 04:18PM
What about this?

If someone out lounging in the backyard suddenly saw this appear high in the sky, do you think that she could mistake it for an alien spacecraft?

ALIENS TERRORIZE LOCAL NEIGHBORHOOD!!!

If you saw this craft for a few minutes just quietly hovering in a darkened sky, somewhere above the treetops, how could you possibly tell whether it was an object about 2' X 2' in size about 500 feet away from you or perhaps larger than a 747 and maybe 5 miles away?
Re: I saw 2 UFOs about midnight PST 9/18-9/19
January 20, 2014 11:34PM
Dick Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What about this?
>
> If someone out lounging in the backyard suddenly
> saw this appear high in the sky, do you think that
> she could mistake it for an alien spacecraft?


No. Alien spacecraft are using gravity boosts and ion drive - totally silent.
Re: I saw 2 UFOs about midnight PST 9/18-9/19
January 21, 2014 05:52AM
You can't hear these things, either, from a distance. Also, it'd be very easy to muffle the sound . . . so, sorry, but the sound thing doesn't work.

There's no way you'd be able to tell a small remote controlled small spaceship from a distance of 500 feet from a 747-sized spaceship that was 3 miles away from you.

Truth be told, it would be just about the easiest thing in the world to fool someone (or really just about anyone) who believes in this UFO nonsense into thinking they'd seen a real alien space ship.
Re: I saw 2 UFOs about midnight PST 9/18-9/19
January 21, 2014 07:03AM
Of course there would be a way to tell the difference, Dick. The remote controlled ship would have someone on the ground with the radio controller in their hand watching it so they don't fly into something.

Geeeez.... that was easy. eye rolling smiley
Re: I saw 2 UFOs about midnight PST 9/18-9/19
January 21, 2014 11:27AM
So at night you can actually see through houses, trees, hills, etc., and see someone with a remote controller in their hand, who's maybe 1200 feet away completely hidden from a normal person's view?

If I didn't know you were, um, stretching the truth again I'd be impressed.

Truth is, you and people like you who are all too ready to see little green men are the easiest people in the world to fool on this subject.
Re: I saw 2 UFOs about midnight PST 9/18-9/19
January 21, 2014 04:18PM
Navy wrote: You and I disagree on dismissing claims of large craft hovering silently and making hairpin turns based on known physics alone. To make such a claim, you would have to demonstrate the physical impossibility, or at least physical high unlikelihood, of such a thing, not just the technological unlikelihood.

Part I:

It's highly unlikely that a biological being could survive 300 g's of pressure by making a 90 degree turn at just under the speed of sound.Test pilots, I think, sometimes undergo maybe 10 g's for a few seconds in some of their maneuvers and only survive that by wearing pressure suits that force blood into their brains.

It's hard to imagine, even if not impossible, to imagine anyone standing beneath a massive, metallic spacecraft while it hovers only a few feet from the ground. The force that cancels gravity in that situation must be tremendous even if it's generated by some sort of anti-gravity machine. Yet, some people have reported standing in these positions.

And what about the sound thing that you bring up? Why don't UFO witnesses very often report hearing sonic booms when they report seeing spaceships going well-above 600 mph? The first thought that comes to mind is that these witnesses are actually seeing a much smaller object much nearer to them than they estimate, which means of course that the object is also traveling at a much reduced rate of speed.

Part II:

All of the above are logically possible occurrences. I've never said that any of them is not. But as I've pointed out many times before: A cow jumping over the moon is also a logically possible occurrence. What is logically possible has nothing to do with what has even a very slight probability of occurrence.
Re: I saw 2 UFOs about midnight PST 9/18-9/19
January 22, 2014 05:42PM
Dick,

It's highly unlikely that a biological being could survive 300 g's of pressure by making a 90 degree turn at just under the speed of sound.


That argument relies too much on what we know. The only kind of biology that we have studied so far is earth-based, carbon-based. We can, of course, make some assumptions about any kind of life, based on what we know of chemistry, which we assume to be the same throughout the universe. But even then, we're assuming the supposedly alien crafts have pilots aboard.

The force that cancels gravity in that situation must be tremendous even if it's generated by some sort of anti-gravity machine.

And therefore ... what? Gravity is silent. What makes it difficult to imagine? Are you saying the anti-gravity machine should affect the observer?

Why don't UFO witnesses very often report hearing sonic booms when they report seeing spaceships going well-above 600 mph?


That's a goooood question, but similar questions have been proposed to Believers before, and it's not a strain to imagine them providing "solutions" such as "The ET's have stealth technology on board that steadies the atmosphere and prevents shockwaves" and "The ET craft isn't changing directions, it's actually flickering in and out of our dimension."
Re: I saw 2 UFOs about midnight PST 9/18-9/19
January 26, 2014 07:41PM
Technology that's hundreds of years more advanced than current technology would always look like magic to the observer. Imagine going back to the Dark Ages and showing them television, computers, and F-16s.
Re: I saw 2 UFOs about midnight PST 9/18-9/19
January 26, 2014 11:24PM
Therefore, anything we see that we can't define, or that appears to be "magical", should be assumed to be technology more advanced than ours by hundreds of years. Got it.


eye rolling smiley

============================================================================

*Sanders 2016*

"And these children that you spit on
As they try to change their worlds
Are immune to your consultations
They're quite aware of what they're going through"



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/27/2014 12:01AM by sardonicadonis.
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