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I saw 2 UFOs about midnight PST 9/18-9/19

Posted by Hornswoggle 
Re: I saw 2 UFOs about midnight PST 9/18-9/19
January 16, 2014 09:53PM
""At this time, the reports of incidents convince us that there is something going on that must have immediate attention... Sightings of unexplained objects at great altitudes and travelling at high speeds in the vicinity of major U.S. defense installations are of such nature that they are not attributable to natural phenomena or known types of aerial vehicles."

Does that, to you, lend any creedence at all the UFO theories? This guy learns about UFOreports from pilots who presumably believe what they are reporting, and issues a memo expressing concern. That, to me, seems perfectly natural, but in no way constitutes evidence for anything but his concern.
Re: I saw 2 UFOs about midnight PST 9/18-9/19
January 16, 2014 10:03PM
"Why would statements by current astronauts be any more believable to you than statements by retired astronauts? "

Because to determine the truth of a proposition, one has to rule out things that detract from it. Everyone is a product of their time, and popular conceptions about UFO's were different in the 50's. I think it's reasonable to consider whether or not astonauts of the 1950's and '60's were swayed by the notions of their time. It would be useful to compare the views of astronauts' across the decades and see if their perceptions change with, or against, or not at all in relation to popular perception. Of course, such a comparison would have limited value by itself. There are other significant variables to consider, as you point out, such as how they will be perceived, and how it would affect their careers, how NASA and the governement have changed, etc.
Re: I saw 2 UFOs about midnight PST 9/18-9/19
January 16, 2014 10:08PM
Does that, to you, lend any creedence at all the UFO theories?

Yes! How could it not?

You're diminishing the statement.

"There is something going on that must have immediate attention." ( not 'there might be' )

"...are of such nature that they are not attributable to natural phenomena or known types of aerial vehicles." ( not 'might be of such nature...' and 'might not be attributable...')
Re: I saw 2 UFOs about midnight PST 9/18-9/19
January 16, 2014 10:09PM
Because to determine the truth of a proposition, one has to rule out things that detract from it. Everyone is a product of their time, and popular conceptions about UFO's were different in the 50's.

Who cares about popular conceptions about UFOs?
Re: I saw 2 UFOs about midnight PST 9/18-9/19
January 16, 2014 10:13PM
On the contrary, I would believe the retired astronauts over present day astronauts for at least a few reasons...

1. What Hornsy said - retirees have nothing to lose.

2. Modern day astronauts have not been on the moon. They are not explorers in the true sense - they go where we have already gone. The original astronauts were the first to be there, see it, experience it and if there were to be contact - it would be with them, not today's version.

3. What Navy said - times have changed. And with it - and the public exposure of classified info by retired astronauts - I'm sure that info is more tightly secured these days. Gordon Cooper and the others were the stars of the US flight programs - "the best of the best" with access. Where do astronauts stand in today's world? An afterthought. There's been plenty of talk about canceling the NASA program. Today astronauts are basically grunts - glorified delivery boys who take satellites into space or police up dangerous trash floating around out there. To believe today's astronauts have the same type of access yesterday's did is to suspend disbelief. Of course the earlier pilots saw more, did more, were exposed to more. That goes without saying.
Re: I saw 2 UFOs about midnight PST 9/18-9/19
January 16, 2014 10:20PM
Military personnel have reported these things A LOT.

From one such report:

"The really extraordinary encounter occurred when this object detached a smaller object from it, which then pursued the F-4 Interceptor. The pilot pulled an extreme turn to get away from the object, and this smaller object turned inside his own arc, and then rejoined the mother-craft for a perfect rejoin."

That's 1976. What can do that today much less 38 years ago?

Loads of reports from the military like the one above.
Re: I saw 2 UFOs about midnight PST 9/18-9/19
January 16, 2014 10:22PM
""There is something going on that must have immediate attention." ( not 'there might be' )

To the best of my knowledge, I believe something is going, although I have not witnessed it with my own eyes. It is my opinion that it must have immediate attention.

"...are of such nature that they are not attributable to natural phenomena or known types of aerial vehicles." ( not 'might be of such nature...' and 'might not be attributable...')

Are, as best I can tell, of such a nature that attributable to natural phenomena or known types of aerial vehicles. Please note that I am not omniscient, and I present in this memo no hard facts, only my perceptions of the state of things based on second-hand information. It is my fervent hope that in the future, those curious about this phenomenon do not mistakenly use this memo as evidence of anything other than my state of mind, as it constitutes no such thing. I hope that they adhere to rigorous scrutiny of the matter.

Who cares about popular conceptions about UFOs?

Popular conceptions sway our beliefs. This applies even to astronauts, who are humans, not machines. I would be surprised that you even ask this, except that a while ago you stated that our understanding of physics and psychology are not applicable to study of the UFO phenomenon.
Re: I saw 2 UFOs about midnight PST 9/18-9/19
January 16, 2014 10:42PM
Look, I have a pension to worry about. I have a family to take care of, and they told me to just back away from this entirely or else.

- James Irwin, Apollo 15 astronaut to Frank Stranges after backing out of speaking at a 1976 UFO convention where he was going to “inform us of the strange things he saw on the surface of the moon.”

He told me the story here in the hanger…as soon as we were by ourselves. He turned to me and he looked at me and said, “I’m going to say something that is Top Secret. If you repeat it I will deny ever having said it.” He said they weren’t there (on the moon surface) an hour and a saucer landed a mile away from them and we asked Houston if we could motor over and say howdy. They said ‘no ignore them and pretend they’re not there, and carry on about your business.’ He said the all the time we were there they saw no sign of movement, and they were still there when we left.

- James Irwin, on tape) to a famous Canadian pilot
Re: I saw 2 UFOs about midnight PST 9/18-9/19
January 16, 2014 10:45PM
To the best of my knowledge, I believe something is going, although I have not witnessed it with my own eyes. It is my opinion that it must have immediate attention.

Are, as best I can tell, of such a nature that attributable to natural phenomena or known types of aerial vehicles. Please note that I am not omniscient, and I present in this memo no hard facts, only my perceptions of the state of things based on second-hand information. It is my fervent hope that in the future, those curious about this phenomenon do not mistakenly use this memo as evidence of anything other than my state of mind, as it constitutes no such thing. I hope that they adhere to rigorous scrutiny of the matter.

That's not what he said.

Popular conceptions sway our beliefs.

They report what they see, not what they believe.
Re: I saw 2 UFOs about midnight PST 9/18-9/19
January 16, 2014 11:23PM
"That's not what he said."

No kidding. There's a point to my post, but it looks like you don't want to talk about it anymore.

"They report what they see, not what they believe."

Add PTTP's belief that Physics and Psychology Have Nothing To Do With The UFO Phenomenon to the list of things that need to be resolved before the UFO discussion can progress on this board.

BTW, regarding the "I have a pension" quotes — If an astronaut, or anyone, actually had inside info about UFO's, I could buy that they might not want to go public because of personal concerns.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/16/2014 11:28PM by Navy2711.
Re: I saw 2 UFOs about midnight PST 9/18-9/19
January 16, 2014 11:56PM
I believe it was 5% of the Project Bluebook sightings that were unexplainable. That's a project who's main mission was to quell talk of UFOs and extraterrestrials in any way possible. That means any "swamp gas" nonsense they could invent was good enough for Uncle Sam. Even they ended up with 1 out of 20 events that were unexplainable.

And then there's the info Navy (should) know from his (alleged) military days he refuses to discuss... (speaking of pensions and protecting family members)... smoking smiley
Re: I saw 2 UFOs about midnight PST 9/18-9/19
January 17, 2014 03:00AM
Navy wrote: Beyond what I've already acknowledged as their expertise on judging whether or not a flying object is moving in manner allowable by current human technological standards . . .

I'm by no means convinced that astronauts have a meaningful expertise on what is and is not allowed by "current human technological standards" and I'm not convinced that even if they had such an ability, that it would have a material bearing on UFO sightings.

Many of the UFO sightings talked about by UFOlogists defy current known physics, not just current known terrestrial technology. (Did any of you see the report from Hornswoggle on the latest incredible sighting? I'm not sure what it means that no one has commented on it.)

Indy wrote: I believe it was 5% of the Project Bluebook sightings that were unexplainable.

We should keep in mind that this is 5% of previously unidentified sightings. The % of unidentified sightings compared to the total number of things seen in the sky is therefore miniscule. It has to be a tiny fraction of 1%.

The fact that a very tiny percentage of things seen in the atmosphere remain unidentifiable could mean any number of things. For example, it could mean that alien civilizations have indeed traversed trillions of miles across the universe to wage war amongst themselves in earth's atmosphere just as Hornswoggle's anonymous eyewitness says that they have.

Or it could mean that it's not reasonable to expect everthing seen in earth's atmosphere to be identifiable by anyone who happens to see them even if none of those sights are caused by aliens.
Re: I saw 2 UFOs about midnight PST 9/18-9/19
January 17, 2014 03:30AM
Dick,

"I'm by no means convinced that astronauts have a meaningful expertise on what is and is not allowed by "current human technological standards"

I was referencing an earlier conversation in which I acknowledged that the early astronauts flew high performance aircraft, and were in a better position to assess if a perceived object's aerial performance was greater current human standards. My use of the word "allowable" is probably misleading — I only mean it in the common usage, not the strict technical usage.

Many of the UFO sightings talked about by UFOlogists defy current known physics, not just current known terrestrial technology.

I also noted that such expertise only counts for objects having marginally better performance than human technology, as you don't need a test pilot to tell you that an object zooming out of sight in less than a second is performing better than common technology.

I'm not sure why you see it as having no bearing. If a military test pilot assesses a perceived object as performing even better than he's seen, then you've at least ruled out something. You've assessed that if the pilot is right, then the object most likely didn't come from a program that the US government is pouring millions of dollars into. Other possibilities remain, of course. It could be a trick of the mind, or a simple misperception on the pilot's part. It could be an even more secret government program, making even higher performance craft. It could be ET. etc etc.


"Did any of you see the report from Hornswoggle on the latest incredible sighting? I'm not sure what it means that no one has commented on it.) "


I assumed prayed and hoped that it was posted in jest, that's why I didn't comment on it.
Re: I saw 2 UFOs about midnight PST 9/18-9/19
January 17, 2014 03:50AM
From a report linked by Hornswoggle: I witnessed an alien war over Waxhaw NC

MCP - Celebrating the New Year and thought I was just witnessing fireworks. I saw a lot of explosions in the sky, but instead of colorful geometric formations, I kept seeing huge fireballs followed by mushroom clouds. Apparently aliens were having a war in the atmosphere. 6-7 UFOs shaped like discs and piloted by Grays were shooting lasers and neutron missiles at each other at an altitude of 95,000 feet. It looked like the UFOs were blowing up when they were hit, but their shields protected them. I saw one Gray eject from his spacecraft after several direct hits, but he parachuted into another craft then took off back into deep space. The worst part was getting abducted. A UFO landed in my driveway and the pilot got out and asked for several wooden boxes of uranium. I told him I had some in my basement, and when he went and looked I snuck onto his spaceship and started going through his things. He came back and caught me. Things got really out of hand at this point and I'm too embarrassed to say what happened next.


First things first: Does anyone believe that this report is true?

If not, then at the very least you have just acknowledged that you believe some UFO reports are total fiction. And if some UFO reports are total fiction then why should anyone think that all fictitious UFO reports are obvious cases of fiction like the one related above? Is it not likely that some UFO sightings that sound plausible on first blush are also complete fiction?

So we all agree that it's reasonable to believe that some unresolved UFO reports are probably nothing more than fiction.

Study after study has proved that human perception is not infallible. IOW, when sincere people say in all candor that they observed X happening, sometimes it is the case X never happened. This applies to the perceptions of astronauts, scientists, law enforcement personnel, etc., just as readily as it applies to the perceptions of any other human being.

So we all agree that it's reasonable to believe that some unresolved UFO reports are probably nothing more than honest perceptual error.

People can be intentionally fooled without their ever realizing that they were fooled. Of all the bizarre occurrences that have been reported by people through the centuries, some were the result of ruses, even extremely sophisticated ruses, perpetrated by other human beings for myriad reasons.

So we all agree that it's reasonable to believe that some unresolved UFO reports are probably nothing more than ruses or hoaxes perpetrated for any number of reasons.

In my estimation and in the estimation of many a cosmologist and astronomer, extraterrestrial life almost certainly exists. It could be the case that some of this ET life is responsible for some of the UFOs seen in our atmosphere.

So we all agree that it's reasonable to believe that some unresolved UFO reports could be the result of ET activity.

So why is it rational to believe that any particular unresolved UFO report is the result of ET activity in our atmosphere, a phenomenon which COULD occur, and not the result of other phenomena which are KNOWN to occur?
Re: I saw 2 UFOs about midnight PST 9/18-9/19
January 17, 2014 03:53AM
Ummmm... Dick? The 5% number pertains to UFOs - unidentified flying objects. The other things in the sky do not matter a whit - and do not pertain to the discussion. Concerning ourselves with everything in the sky would be the same as the police checking everybody who walked into the grocery store because someone robbed the bank. One has nothing to do with the other. As the Master of the Red Herring - I've come to expect better from you.
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