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As I suspected the universe may have not started with the big bang, It may have no beginning and no end.

[www.heraldsun.com.au]

My gut feeling has always come up with the conclusion that the universe is infinite. the big bang and the heat death that maps out the unvierses begining and end never made sense to me. Looking back at the history of the study of the universe,humanity has been surprised time and time again at how big it is. And it gets getting bigger.

With an infinite universe there is no possibility of a creator.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/13/2012 04:39PM by Fascinated_foreigner.
It's been my feeling that there was never "nothing". Whatever the universe came out of, it was something else.

.
what this evidence shows pondy is that that something else is the universe, it begets itself then begets itself ad infinituem.
I've had the same thoughts for along time as well. [www.selectsmart.com]

The notion that something came of nothing in the big bang defies everything we know about the universe in fact to me its about as dubious as religion.

Thanks for the post! I've thought about this scenario before, that the universe may be cyclical in that it creates and recreates itself via the use of black holes.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Build yourselves a wall of ships!" said the Oracle!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/13/2012 07:37PM by Kairos.
I don't think the predominate view of the Big Bang is that "the universe came from nothing ... deal with it." Instead it theorizes that the universe expanded from a singularity, and it doesn't attempt to hypothesize back in time beyond that. Most physicists who talk about "nothing" might mean "nothing" as humans perceive it, but they still allow that it contains energy in different forms.

Those physicists who really mean "nothing", as in "a complete absence of the characteristics of our universe," provide very sound hypotheses as to how our universe could have come from nothing. Lawrence Krauss has some good lectures on YouTube.
The Worm Ouroboros (from Norse mythology), was the snake or dragon that eats its own tail and therefore sustains itself forever. The Hindus say the universe is made of eternal cycles. Buddhists say the world has no beginning or end because only the here and now are real. Some physicists are theorizing that "branes," or vibrating dimensions beyond our own, may intersect, giving rise to Big Bangs and resulting in universes that spring forth continually like bubbles in boiling water. Others have shown that it is mathematically possible that time-space may branch off from one universe to create another, or even reach back in time to cause itself to happen.

Since the Big Bang theory was proposed in the 20th century, Christian theologians have seized on it as proof that only their gods could have "begun" the universe. But who or what "began" their gods, and if they had no beginning, why must the cosmos have one?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/14/2012 01:04AM by linc.
Fascinated_foreigner Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >

>
> With an infinite universe there is no possibility
> of a creator.

The root of your desire certainly isn't hidden.

...But there neither is nor can be any principle prohibiting the Almighty from creating something infinite. Someone just made that assertion up.
Kairos Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> The notion that something came of nothing in the
> big bang defies everything we know about the
> universe in fact to me its about as dubious as
> religion.

Do tell...

This minor heresy is permitted in Atheismâ„¢ because it's something 'most every Atheistâ„¢ wishes. It's oldschool.

>
> Thanks for the post! I've thought about this
> scenario before, that the universe may be cyclical
> in that it creates and recreates itself via the
> use of black holes.

Not at all new. Charles Darwin's grandfather wrote a poem which is considered the first modern version of the "Big Bang". The idea itself is too old to date, going back to the Brahmans.

Couple of Atheistâ„¢ links:

[www.youtube.com]

[en.wikipedia.org]

The article in the O.P.'s kinda interesting. I'd like to see more. It looks like he's presupposing the Big Bang as a means of "disproving" the Big Bang. I'm not familiar with this fallacy. It's like circular reasoning, but has the twist of coming to the opposite conclusion. I'm reluctant to say it's new.

Actually it'd be a new combination: conclusion not following premises PLUS circular reasoning.
How did God originate? If God needs no origin, why does the universe need one?
Cause and effect, CTD. You can deny the Law of cause and effect. What caused god? Nothing? God?

============================================================================

*Sanders 2016*

"And these children that you spit on
As they try to change their worlds
Are immune to your consultations
They're quite aware of what they're going through"
Linc: "How did God originate? If God needs no origin, why does the universe need one? "

CTD: "Straw god fallacy"

CTD, you misspelled "I don't want to answer that."
More straw god fallacy.

The "God of Classical Theism" - recognized by philosophers - not only Christian perceptions, but much less specific understanding held for ages by many others - got that?

The "God of Classical Theism" is eternal, outside of time, not subject to time. There is no such thing as a "time before God".

So when you ask "what caused god?" you are substituting in some straw god, which you would have folks imagine to be constrained by time. God created time; God is the master - not the slave. God may enter or exit time as He chooses.
When did god create time? Why then? What was he so busy with before?

============================================================================

*Sanders 2016*

"And these children that you spit on
As they try to change their worlds
Are immune to your consultations
They're quite aware of what they're going through"
"More straw god fallacy. " - CTD

Right. You already said you don't want to answer the question. You don't need to dodge the issue twice.
CTD Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The "God of Classical Theism" is eternal, outside
> of time, not subject to time. There is no such
> thing as a "time before God".

Obvious BS illogical contradiction.
Nothing can *do* anything w/o *operating* within time.

Every "action" necessitates "time" as it is so defined. Unless your "god" is a non-personal indifferent naturalistic pantheistic God (i.e. the regard of the Universe as "God" and the laws of physics as its "personality"winking smiley; a God, unlike those various gods of Christianity/Islam/Greeks/Ancient-Egypt/etc. worshiped by superstitious silly and ignorant believers; one which does not have desires, wants, have a gender, nor a personality; nor is it compelled to bring about miracles (such as turning Moses's snake into a rod See: [www.selectsmart.com]), or wager a bet with Satan and commands Isaac to murder his son; nor is it homophobic, nor would it create hell for sinners which he hates; for instance.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Juni {^á´¥^}


"Don't judge other people just because they sin differently from you!" ~ Anon

Three things you (probably) don't know about Islam
[www.youtube.com]

Welcome To Belgistan -- The New Muslim Capital Of Europe
[www.youtube.com]

Jun Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> CTD Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The "God of Classical Theism" is eternal,
> outside
> > of time, not subject to time. There is no such
> > thing as a "time before God".
>
> Obvious BS illogical contradiction.
> Nothing can *do* anything w/o *operating* within
> time.
>

Nothing physical can. So what?

Furthermore, God can make time at His convenience. If God should find time needful or desirable, who's to stop Him? Not you, and not Satan.

For the benefit of honest passers-by, I'll explain a little more. We can do something analogous. We can write a story. The story will have its own timeline. We can go back at will and revise the story. We can add or subtract, move things around. We have total control of the time in the story.

Of course that's very simple, but it can lead to a little understanding if one has patience and really cares to learn something about God. It's a start - that's all. And those who don't want folks to learn? Well, you've got your work cut out, now don't you?
Missed a boo-boo, and it's a funny one

Jun Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Every "action" necessitates "time" as it is so
> defined. Unless your "god" is a non-personal
> indifferent naturalistic pantheistic God (i.e. the
> regard of the Universe as "God" and the laws of
> physics as its "personality"winking smiley; a God, unlike those
> various gods of
> Christianity/Islam/Greeks/Ancient-Egypt/etc.
> worshiped by superstitious silly and ignorant
> believers; one which does not have desires, wants,
> have a gender, nor a personality; nor is it
> compelled to bring about miracles (such as turning
> Moses's snake into a rod See:
> [www.selectsmart.com]
> 816), or wager a bet with Satan and commands Isaac
> to murder his son; nor is it homophobic, nor would
> it create hell for sinners which he hates; for
> instance.

All that mess is saying what? Yes, I know - who can sort it out?

Well, one claim in there is that a god who was the universe would be more powerful that the Living God who CREATED the universe. Now that's funny, I don't care who you are.
CTD Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Missed a boo-boo, and it's a funny one

Yeh, those boo-boos were selected examples given in your silly superstitious Christian Babble; of the kind of personal-alpha-male-God which you worship.

The point I was making was to point out that the ridiculous supreme/mighty/macho being known as Yahweh in the Christian-superstition couldn't possibly be such "God" which exists outside of time; a more likely candidate would be the Naturalistic Pantheistic concept of a "God" ( see: [www.selectsmart.com] ).

> > CTD Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> Nothing physical can. So what?


> > CTD Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> Furthermore, God can make time at His convenience.

The *act* of making anything requires "time" itself.
Making time??? *MAKING* time?!? I doubt even you really know what you're talking about.
You're just pulling things out of your anus and flinging it everywhere.

> If God should find time needful or desirable,
> who's to stop Him? Not you, and not Satan.

What are you freaking smoking there?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Juni {^á´¥^}


"Don't judge other people just because they sin differently from you!" ~ Anon

Three things you (probably) don't know about Islam
[www.youtube.com]

Welcome To Belgistan -- The New Muslim Capital Of Europe
[www.youtube.com]

Jun Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------


> Making time??? *MAKING* time?!? I doubt even you
> really know what you're talking about.
> You're just pulling things out of your anus and
> flinging it everywhere.
>
> > If God should find time needful or desirable,
> > who's to stop Him? Not you, and not Satan.
>
> What are you freaking smoking there?

You'd like to think I'm making things up, but it's vain here. It isn't just my concept of God; it isn't just the Christian concept; the "God of Classical Theism" - got that? God is eternal and timeless. This isn't some new discovery.

Keep your pathetic, imaginary, do-nothing straw gods & your demons. God is neither.
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