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Wisdom in an unlikely place

Posted by Anonymous User 
Re: Wisdom in an unlikely place
June 10, 2012 02:38AM
Sardo writes,

Quote
Many atheists accept this possibility as well - its that "You-cant-knowism" you keep bringing up. You CAN'T know A or B, so both should be considered possible.

All things are not equally likely. I don't know with absolute certainty whether flying saucers from other planets are visting earth, but I know it is very unlikely. We must be what Confuscious called, "human-hearted" when we think-- in other words, we must use common sense, something that is hard to program into a computer.

A poor fellow like CTD is unable to do this, owing to his severe OCD.
Anonymous User
Re: Wisdom in an unlikely place
June 10, 2012 02:53AM
And the multitude of insults will just magically remove the truth from everyone's mind...

Quote
Bishop Butler
"The only distinct meaning of the word 'natural' is STATED, FIXED or SETTLED; since what is natural as much requires and presupposes an intelligent agent to render it so, i.e., to effect it continually or at stated times, as what is supernatural or miraculous does to effect it for once."
Butler: "Analogy of Revealed Religion"

Am I cruel? Should I let them retain their delusions?
Re: Wisdom in an unlikely place
June 10, 2012 03:05AM
I didn't say "equally possible" winking smiley

============================================================================

*Sanders 2016*

"And these children that you spit on
As they try to change their worlds
Are immune to your consultations
They're quite aware of what they're going through"
Sam
Re: Wisdom in an unlikely place
June 10, 2012 03:26AM
There is no such thing as "equally possible". Something is either possible or it is impossible. Regardless, possibilities can be fun to examine for entertainment purposes but saying "anything is possible" because we don't (can't?) know enough to determine if it in fact is or isn't is just a way to end a discussion. Never mind the statement "anything is possible" is not at all true. Many things are impossible. Like that CTD will get a clue. See?
Re: Wisdom in an unlikely place
June 10, 2012 06:09AM
That's not impossible. Just highly improbable.


I guess I could've been more specific ... Anything "physical" is possible? When using terms like "married" and "bachelor", it may be impossible to be both, but those are just language rules. There's no such thing as a "bachelor" in nature; it's an idea. In the quantum world, anything can happen. "Things" just "happen" differently at that level.

^^ I don't understand it as much as I talk about it :p

============================================================================

*Sanders 2016*

"And these children that you spit on
As they try to change their worlds
Are immune to your consultations
They're quite aware of what they're going through"
Sam
Re: Wisdom in an unlikely place
June 10, 2012 06:32AM
Me neither, sard...We are all Students of the Universe forever else something is wrong with this picture. For certain, it's impossible to understand all there is, was and will be. I don't even rule out that gods are real but I know if they are real, they are not gods but something else mistaken for gods. True, language and semantics severly limit our ability to convey ideas, math only a bit better to a select few who dedicate their lives to it. Music and other form of Art can evoke the emotions but we will always be limited in the scope of what we can know. Believers like CTD are obviously and sadly delusional. Do you mind if I ask you where you live and if you have to put up with things like this CTD in your RL? Related to any? How about a town crawling with them, lol...
Re: Wisdom in an unlikely place
June 10, 2012 06:39AM
I come from a Christian family, so I get a lot of it at home ... But it's not so bad. They all know I'm an atheist, and love me for it (not despite, but for), but I don't get to talk much about it with them, because they get easily offended. I believe I've mentioned before that there were some deaths in the family a few years back. Any conversation I'd try to have becomes "If you don't believe in Jesus than you don't believe in heaven, and if you don't believe in heaven you don't believe [family member] is still out there somewhere, and how can you believe that ???", to which I have no kind answer, so I have to shrug it off and say I love my family and I hope, because it'd be nice if it were true, that I'd get to see them again some day.

As far as my town goes, I live in New England, so the religious mostly keep to themselves. I have a lot of friends who share similar beliefs with me; we all disagree about certain things, we all have various interpretations of what it all means, but we don't jump down each others throats over anything of the sort. Folks are mostly tolerant around here.

============================================================================

*Sanders 2016*

"And these children that you spit on
As they try to change their worlds
Are immune to your consultations
They're quite aware of what they're going through"
Anonymous User
Re: Wisdom in an unlikely place
June 10, 2012 06:50AM
Googling Bishop Butler, with "The Analogy of Religion, Natural and Revealed, To the Constitution and Course of Nature" in quotes, to cut down on hits from his other works, I got 83,000 results. I have provided one link to the book; I could have provided several more.

The man's thinking is highly regarded to this day.

But here? Here? What little they've said about him is nothing but slanderous evil because... you know why.

For whatever reason, their own false prophet quoted Butler. Any interest? What do you see?
Sam
Re: Wisdom in an unlikely place
June 10, 2012 04:21PM
Yep, Sard, their whole religion is based on their denial of the fact that dead means dead. My husband used to get really sad when we would talk about dying and how worried he was that I wouldn't make it to heaven cuz I don't believe in jesusgods saying he wants me to be with him for eternity (go figure, eh?). It's easy to see why people cling to the myth when you experience their genuine sorrow and fear. This made him feel better (they grasp at anything to soothe). I told him everyone must have their own individualized idea of heaven in their psyche and if his idea of heaven has me there with him then that's the heaven he will get (if he's a good little boy.) Desperation rules when it comes to assuaging fears. and it's really pretty easy to do that. Some of my family actually believe my sister is and will be writhing in agony forever in hells for murdering herself while my mom is sitting on a cloud in heaven waiting for her. Really? How is that by any stretch of the imagination to be considered a heaven for my mom? Nonsense. Of course, bbbbbillions of people have me burning in hells but that's their idea of heaven. Mine? Alaska in the summertime...

What did you mean when you said they love you FOR being an atheist?
Anonymous User
Re: Wisdom in an unlikely place
June 10, 2012 05:46PM
There have been several terms applied to the endeavours of men such as Butler. 'Natural Theology' has been, at one time, commonly employed. As a consequence of protestant beliefs and the distribution of scripture, efforts began to be made seeking to discover gospel message(s) throughout nature. Both scripture and common experience attest to the proofs, the certainty of knowledge available to all men.

If this sounds foreign to you, it is the fault of your history instructors. The movement grew and grew; it prospered beyond the expectations of most. Discovering and establishing the laws given by God which govern the world all around us was quite an undertaking, and there was opposition from those wedded to pagan traditions as well as atheist who understood that proving laws is in essence difficult to distinguish from proving the law giver. One can scarce begin to estimate the impact it continues to have on lives of man and beast around the globe. The methods employed and the discoveries made are now called 'science'. Unfortunately, merely calling something 'science' suffices to fool those who are ignorant of the methods, and simply accept the "scientist" as some sort of priest, taking his word regardless.

Quote
Rodney Stark, "False conflict"
Popular lore, movies, and children's stories hold that in 1492 Christopher Columbus proved the world is round and in the process defeated years of dogged opposition from the Roman Catholic Church, which insisted that the earth is flat. These tales are rooted in books like A History of the Warfare of Science with Theology in Christendom, an influential reference by Andrew Dickson White, founder and first president of Cornell University. White claimed that even after Columbus' return "the Church by its highest authority solemnly stumbled and persisted in going astray."

The trouble is, almost every word of White's account of the Columbus story is a lie. All educated persons of Columbus' day, very much including the Roman Catholic prelates, knew the earth was round.

...

The truth is, there is no inherent conflict between religion and science. Indeed, the fundamental reality is that Christian theology was essential for the rise of science--a fact little appreciated outside the ranks of academic specialists.

Recent historical research has debunked the idea of a "Dark Ages" after the "fall" of Rome. In fact, this was an era of profound and rapid technological progress, by the end of which Europe had surpassed the rest of the world. Moreover, the so-called "Scientific Revolution" of the sixteenth century was a result of developments begun by religious scholars starting in the eleventh century. In my own academic research I have asked why these religious scholastics were interested in science at all. Why did science develop in Europe at this time? Why did it not develop anywhere else? I find answers to those questions in unique features of Christian theology.

Even in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, the leading scientific figures were overwhelmingly devout Christians who believed it their duty to comprehend God's handiwork. My studies show that the "Enlightenment" was conceived initially as a propaganda ploy by militant atheists attempting to claim credit for the rise of science. The falsehood that science required the defeat of religion was proclaimed by self-appointed cheerleaders like Voltaire, Diderot, and Gibbon, who themselves played no part in the scientific enterprise--a pattern that continues today.

[business.highbeam.com]
Anonymous User
Re: Wisdom in an unlikely place
June 10, 2012 06:13PM
What some of Rodney's Stark's research has revealed:

Quote
Reviewer
Christian theology, says Stark, is the very font of reason. While the world's other great belief systems emphasised mystery, obedience or introspection, Christianity alone embraced logic and deductive thinking as the path towards enlightenment, freedom and progress.

There were no Dark Ages, he argues, as this period was the incubator of the West's future glories. Encouraged by the Scholastics and embodied in the great medieval universities founded by the Church, faith in the power of reason permeated Western culture, stimulating the pursuit of science and the evolution of democratic theory and practice. The rise of capitalism was, says Stark, "also a victory for church-inspired reason, since capitalism is in essence the systematic and sustained application of reason to commerce - something that first took place within the great monastic estates."

Myths that Muslim Arab civilisation kept the flames of civilisation burning while Europe languished in the Dark Ages and Middle Ages are put to bed. While Islamic scholars kept ancient Greek and Roman learning alive, their culture did nothing with it.

Stark reminds us that during the "Dark Ages", there were such key inventions as clocks and bells to tell the time and deep-earth ploughs that revolutionised agriculture. European "round" ships, and compasses to tell direction at sea, enabled international transport, communication and travel to occur at an increasing rate.

At the same time, Christian ideas about personal freedom and individual rights led to the abolition of slavery and the enshrining of property rights in the Magna Carta.

[www.ad2000.com.au]
Re: Wisdom in an unlikely place
June 10, 2012 06:17PM
Sam Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> What did you mean when you said they love you FOR
> being an atheist?



Well, they love me because we're family. They wouldn't love me more if I were Christian - they love me for who I am, not what they picture me as. They also love my free-thinking nature, my fascination with science and math, and the intelligent things I bring to the conversation when we do end up talking about life, the universe, and everything. I have one aunt in particular who, if it hadn't been for the loss of her son in Afganistan, would likely end up "converting" from superstition to reality; but I can't break her heart like that, part of what keeps her going is the idea that she'll get to be with him again some day.

My mom's worried I'll die before I'm "saved".

============================================================================

*Sanders 2016*

"And these children that you spit on
As they try to change their worlds
Are immune to your consultations
They're quite aware of what they're going through"
Anonymous User
Re: Wisdom in an unlikely place
June 10, 2012 06:23PM
Quote

Sociologist Rodney Stark investigated the individuals who made the most significant scientific contributions between 1543 and 1680 A.D., the time of the Scientific Revolution. In Stark's list of 52 top scientific contributors, only one (Edmund Halley) was a skeptic and another (Paracelsus) was a pantheist. The other 50 were Christians, 30 of whom could be characterized as being devout Christians. Stark believes that the Enlightenment was a ploy by "militant atheists" to claim credit for the rise of science.

[www.conservapedia.com]

Although it is oft presented disingenuously as some sort of "objection", there is also grounds for serious concern regarding our fellow men who live(d) in remote Gentile lands without the benefit of scripture. Knowing that much can be discerned from simply observing nature, it makes sense to investigate. These investigations bring additional lines of evidence and reasoning leading to the same conclusion.

Now I haven't yet seen where Bishop Butler was active in research, but it is at once evident he had a gift for interpreting the evidence discovered, employing systematic thought and discipline. Very few are the authors from past centuries whose works continue to merit study and praise.
Anonymous User
Re: Wisdom in an unlikely place
June 10, 2012 06:30PM
sardonicadonis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sam Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> >
> > What did you mean when you said they love you
> FOR
> > being an atheist?
>
>
>
> Well, they love me because we're family. They
> wouldn't love me more if I were Christian - they
> love me for who I am, not what they picture me as.
> They also love my free-thinking nature, my
> fascination with science and math, and the
> intelligent things I bring to the conversation
> when we do end up talking about life, the
> universe, and everything. I have one aunt in
> particular who, if it hadn't been for the loss of
> her son in Afganistan, would likely end up
> "converting" from superstition to reality; but I
> can't break her heart like that, part of what
> keeps her going is the idea that she'll get to be
> with him again some day.
>
> My mom's worried I'll die before I'm "saved".

Hardly sound like appropriate targets for demonization, huh? Somehow, I suspect even revealing sardonicadonis' unconditional worship of all things "mainstream" and denial of non-contradiction would not diminish the love and prayers of this family.

sar might do well to reflect on just what the agendists' plans are for families like this.
Sam
Re: Wisdom in an unlikely place
June 10, 2012 07:04PM
Sard, Just tell your mom what I told hubs and she will gladly believe it. It's so easy to come here and blast this belief or that with strangers and people we don't care about (and that's precisely why it's great we have this place to do just that) but much trickier when dealing with people we love and who love us. I have lied to my peeps so much about what I really believe in order to make it easier for them I can't even begin to keep track. It would be so nice to be appreciated for a change for having thoughts and opinions of my own so you are lucky. I'm so glad the younger generation is moving away from superstition and bringing some of the believing elders with them in terms of forcing them to face a few truths that don't support their fantasy. They are forced sometimes to either reject their loved one or change the way they think and fortunately, thx to brave gentle yet firm non-believers such as yourself, I think the trend is to change the way they think and even question their own system of beliefs, how and why they believe what they do. Progress!!
Re: Wisdom in an unlikely place
June 10, 2012 09:23PM
I think you're confused, CTD. They're not good people because they're Christian. They're good people who happen to also have Christian beliefs. They would be just as kind, loving, and giving as they are now, if they were atheists. The aunt I mentioned practically is, save for the hope she has that one day shell see her son and her mother again, and the inner strength she's found since their passing which she attributes to Jesus (sigh). She still considers herself 100% Christian, though.

You'll also be interested to know that my righteous, Christian family also fully supports same-sex marriage, and equal rights to all of humanity. They believe god actually is loving and forgiving, and not petty and spiteful and condemning, like your interpretation.

You could learn a thing or two about love, CTD.

============================================================================

*Sanders 2016*

"And these children that you spit on
As they try to change their worlds
Are immune to your consultations
They're quite aware of what they're going through"



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/10/2012 09:46PM by sardonicadonis.
Sam
Re: Wisdom in an unlikely place
June 10, 2012 09:47PM
Wake-sex, lol? As opposed to sleep-sex? Do tell!! Lol, ok, same-sex, ho hum...
Re: Wisdom in an unlikely place
June 10, 2012 09:50PM
Haha, fixed it as you were commenting on it :p

Sleep sex ... When one or both of you is too drunk / tired for it, but you do it anyway grinning smiley

============================================================================

*Sanders 2016*

"And these children that you spit on
As they try to change their worlds
Are immune to your consultations
They're quite aware of what they're going through"
Anonymous User
Re: Wisdom in an unlikely place
June 10, 2012 10:11PM
sardonicadonis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think you're confused, CTD. They're not good
> people because they're Christian. They're good
> people who happen to also have Christian beliefs.

And your fellow agendists, who'll backstab you in a hearbeat, what do they invariably do with good people, given the opportunity? They've already demonized all theists, most especially Christians thousands of times right here, right before your eyes. What have they done whenever they've obtained control of a country?

...And neither calling me "confused" nor pretending I said things I didn't makes you "superior".
Re: Wisdom in an unlikely place
June 10, 2012 10:18PM
I never claimed to be superior. That's your projection, placed on a straw adonis.

Any superiority you may have detected is the superiority of the capacity of love my family has over your brazen displays of hatred and intolerance here on the forums.

Also, last I checked, Christians were in control of the country - we even have a Christian president !!

============================================================================

*Sanders 2016*

"And these children that you spit on
As they try to change their worlds
Are immune to your consultations
They're quite aware of what they're going through"
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