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Wisdom in an unlikely place

Posted by Anonymous User 
Anonymous User
Wisdom in an unlikely place
June 09, 2012 12:23AM
Quote

"The only distinct meaning of the word 'natural' is STATED, FIXED or SETTLED; since what is natural as much requires and presupposes an intelligent agent to render it so, i.e., to effect it continually or at stated times, as what is supernatural or miraculous does to effect it for once."
Butler: "Analogy of Revealed Religion"

It takes time for that insight to sink in. It's quite profound, and shows what a farce, how arbitrary, empty, worthless and meaningless are the communications we typically witness featuring a contrast between "natural" and "supernatural". Butler's insight is ponderworthy.

Now are you ready for a shock? Know where this is found, where I and most others shall first encounter it? To be sure it is found in "Analogy of Revealed Religion", but how many shall venture to read that book? (Just undertaking it myself.)

This quote from Bishop Butler is found on the frontispiece of a famous work by the notorious scoffer Charles Darwin entitled "The Origin of Species by means of Natural Selection or, The Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life".

[www.literature.org]
Re: Wisdom in an unlikely place
June 09, 2012 12:52AM
Do tell.

.
Anonymous User
Re: Wisdom in an unlikely place
June 09, 2012 08:13AM
Okay, I see no futile attempts to reconcile Darwin's nonsense with Butler's insight. That's a good sign.

Let's now turn our attention to the preceding text, shall we?

Quote
Butler
And indeed though one were to allow any confused undetermined sense, which people please to put upon the word natural, it would be a shortness of thought scarce credible to imagine, that no system or course of things can be so, but only what we see at present; especially whilst the probability of a future life or the natural immortality of the soul, is admitted upon the evidence of reason; because this is really both admitting and denying at once, a state of being different from the present to be natural. But the only distinct meaning of the word is stated fixed or settled since what is natural as much requires and presupposes an intelligent agent to render it so that is to effect it continually or at stated times as what is supernatural or miraculous does to effect it for once.

Now I'll see if I can't express the same thing in easier terms, for those who have exceeding difficulty. What's Butler saying?

Nevermind silly twists on the term 'natural'. We can hardly imagine someone believing the only possible state is the state we presently witness. (He refers to occupying the physical bodies we occupy right now.) - Especially when evidence of reason indicates a future life (which may be referred to as "natural immortality of the soul.) - Because it is contradictory to both admit and deny at the same time that another state qualifies to be called "natural".

Now rather than review a whole lot, I'll explain in easier, more concise terms what he's already established, taking liberties for the sake of convenience, yours and mine. It is possible, quite easy to imagine transferring oneself into the body of a dog or goat, right? There is no philosophical objection, nothing contradictory; practically doing it is the only real obstacle. Such a state would be "natural".

If then the self should be transferred outside of one's body, yet not into another, such a state would also be perfectly "natural". So those who label such states "supernatural" are just talking nonsense. Any such distinction is arbitrary, a matter of personal preference, without rational basis.

Readers are invited to have a look. He's much more thorough than what I've presented, and consequently it takes time. The man expresses himself with the most extreme precision, and the resultant excellence renders his writing as beautiful as it is cumbersome.

[books.google.com]
Re: Wisdom in an unlikely place
June 09, 2012 08:24AM
So you believe in the existence of the soul?

In what way have you verified this belief, and reconciled it with reality?

============================================================================

*Sanders 2016*

"And these children that you spit on
As they try to change their worlds
Are immune to your consultations
They're quite aware of what they're going through"
Anonymous User
Re: Wisdom in an unlikely place
June 09, 2012 08:46AM
Why discuss what I've done when the topic is Butler?

Oh silly me - The question answers itself!
Sam
Re: Wisdom in an unlikely place
June 09, 2012 03:30PM
One superstition at a time, sard. It can't even manage to justify its belief in one god let alone bbbbbbillions of souls.
Re: Wisdom in an unlikely place
June 09, 2012 03:58PM
"If then the self should be transferred outside of one's body, yet not into another, such a state would also be perfectly "natural". So those who label such states "supernatural" are just talking nonsense. Any such distinction is arbitrary, a matter of personal preference, without rational basis."---CTD [my emphasis]

I don't think I need to explain to you why I stressed the word "if". In speculative hypothetical scenarios when we start with "If", virtually any argument can be proven to be valid as long as the conclusion follows from the premises. Of course, the fact that the conclusion follows from the premises does not, by any means, imply that the conclusion exists in reality.

Using the word supernatural is not just talking nonsense as that word has a well understood meaning---pertaining to or being above or beyond what is natural or explainable by known natural laws, in theology such inexplicables are usually attributed to God or a deity.

Natural---can be explained by natural laws
Supernatural---cannot be explained by such laws
Re: Wisdom in an unlikely place
June 09, 2012 04:28PM
CTD Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why discuss what I've done when the topic is
> Butler?
>
> Oh silly me - The question answers itself!


Every post you've made in any thread other than your own has been about the poster, and not what they've posted.

At least I'm addressing what you actually said, instead of making something up to accuse you of.

So you believe in souls. Have you discovered one, verified that it was indeed a soul, and then reconciled this discovery with reality?

Or are you just talking out of your arse, still?

============================================================================

*Sanders 2016*

"And these children that you spit on
As they try to change their worlds
Are immune to your consultations
They're quite aware of what they're going through"



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/09/2012 06:09PM by sardonicadonis.
Anonymous User
Re: Wisdom in an unlikely place
June 09, 2012 05:31PM
islander Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Using the word supernatural is not just talking
> nonsense as that word has a well understood
> meaning---pertaining to or being above or beyond
> what is natural or explainable by known natural
> laws, in theology such inexplicables are usually
> attributed to God or a deity.

Shall we inspect? 'Super' = above. Now there is one who is above nature: He who created nature. The term 'supernatural' is thus accurate when speaking of God.

Yet people apply 'supernatural' to events. That's absurd. If an event happened, by what arrogant authority does one justify the claim that it is not part of the nature of things as God arranged?


> Natural---can be explained by natural laws
> Supernatural---cannot be explained by such laws

Empty nonsense, delusion. How might one determine God has established no laws governing a ghost? Oh, and don't forget, such determinations are made WITHOUT investigation!

The first law of nature is evident from the earliest chapters of Genesis: reality conforms to God's instructions.
Re: Wisdom in an unlikely place
June 09, 2012 05:58PM
"So you believe in souls. Have you discovered one, verified that it was indeed a soul, and then reconciled this discovery with reality?" -sardo

sardonicadonis asked you a question, CTD. No answer? He even asked it in terms you should be more than familiar with.

.
Anonymous User
Re: Wisdom in an unlikely place
June 09, 2012 06:25PM
Souls are not past events, and I am not the topic of discussion.

Nice place where a "moderator" jumps in to support derailment of a thread...
Re: Wisdom in an unlikely place
June 09, 2012 06:28PM
CTD Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> The first law of nature is evident from the
> earliest chapters of Genesis: reality conforms to
> God's instructions.


The Genesis 1 account conflicts with the order of events that are known to science.

In Genesis 1:1, the earth and "heaven" are created together "in the beginning," whereas according to current estimates, the earth and universe are about 4.6 and 13.7 billion years old, respectively.

In Genesis, the earth is created (1:1) before light (1:3), sun and stars (1:16); birds and whales (1:21) before reptiles and insects (1:24); and flowering plants (1:11) before any animals (1:20). The order of events known from science is in each case just the opposite.

(1:3-5, 14-19) "Let there be light"
God creates light and separates light from darkness, and day from night, on the first day. Yet he didn't make the light producing objects (the sun and the stars) until the fourth day (1:14-19). And how could there be "the evening and the morning" on the first day if there was no sun to mark them?

============================================================================

*Sanders 2016*

"And these children that you spit on
As they try to change their worlds
Are immune to your consultations
They're quite aware of what they're going through"
Sam
Re: Wisdom in an unlikely place
June 09, 2012 06:35PM
We all know godists are enemies of any truth that can be discovered, verified, and reconciled with reality. If gods and goblins are self-evident, all sense has perished and nothing is worth discussing because insanity would rule. That anyone in this day and age would expect a godist to say anything that could be in the least meaningful as it relates to Reality is astonishing to me. I know we get bored here to the point that we incessantly try to get sensible, logical, reasonable answers from such ill-minded fantasymongers but really? What could be a bigger waste of time? Oh, yeah, me telling fellow freethinkers to ignore self-evident delusional ravings and concentrate more on the agnostics would might actually have an inkling of what reality is. winking smiley
Anonymous User
Re: Wisdom in an unlikely place
June 09, 2012 06:37PM
sardonicadonis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> CTD Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > The first law of nature is evident from the
> > earliest chapters of Genesis: reality conforms
> to
> > God's instructions.
>
>
> The Genesis 1 account conflicts with the order of
> events that are known to science.
>
> In Genesis 1:1, the earth and "heaven" are created
> together "in the beginning," whereas according to
> current estimates, the earth and universe are
> about 4.6 and 13.7 billion years old,
> respectively.
>
> In Genesis, the earth is created (1:1) before
> light (1:3), sun and stars (1:16); birds and
> whales (1:21) before reptiles and insects (1:24);
> and flowering plants (1:11) before any animals
> (1:20). The order of events known from science is
> in each case just the opposite.
>
> (1:3-5, 14-19) "Let there be light"
> God creates light and separates light from
> darkness, and day from night, on the first day.
> Yet he didn't make the light producing objects
> (the sun and the stars) until the fourth day
> (1:14-19). And how could there be "the evening and
> the morning" on the first day if there was no sun
> to mark them?

Ah sure, employing 'science' deceitfully, and an euphemism for 'atheism' - nobody's seen that trick before!

The past is properly investigated not by making up stories and wishing them to have taken place, no matter how hard all the little athiests wish. No honest person deviates from correct procedure intentionally and maliciously. On the rare occasions when an honest person deviates, he is pleased to have his error is pointed out.
Sam
Re: Wisdom in an unlikely place
June 09, 2012 06:40PM
Then let me point out your error, Sir. Gods are not real and you cannot make them so by screeching and stomping your feet. Put your thumb back in your mouth and go back to bed.
Re: Wisdom in an unlikely place
June 09, 2012 06:44PM
I'm employing "science" as .... *dramatic drumroll* SCIENCE !!

You see, science says events must occur in a specific order - the order your bible, the "infallable word of god", recounts these events is, well, WRONG.

But ok, tell me why science should be COMPLETELY disregarded in the case of Genesis.

============================================================================

*Sanders 2016*

"And these children that you spit on
As they try to change their worlds
Are immune to your consultations
They're quite aware of what they're going through"
Re: Wisdom in an unlikely place
June 09, 2012 06:49PM
sardo, any scientific conclusion that contradicts the literal word of the Bible constitutes a "deceitful" employment of science.

Have I got that correct, CTD?

.
Anonymous User
Re: Wisdom in an unlikely place
June 09, 2012 07:00PM
Atheismâ„¢ is atheism; science is science; never shall the twain meet on friendly terms - ever. Reality cannot contradict itself.
Re: Wisdom in an unlikely place
June 09, 2012 07:05PM
It can, and does, however, contradict the bible.

A lot.

Science !!

============================================================================

*Sanders 2016*

"And these children that you spit on
As they try to change their worlds
Are immune to your consultations
They're quite aware of what they're going through"
Anonymous User
Re: Wisdom in an unlikely place
June 09, 2012 07:10PM
PEOPLE contradict left and right. Simply contradicting does not make anyone right - not even when the thing they contradict is known certainly to be true.
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