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KAIROS WROTE: Why is homosexuality EVIL? Also why is fornication EVIL?

Posted by Anonymous User 
Re: KAIROS WROTE: Why is homosexuality EVIL? Also why is fornication EVIL?
July 27, 2010 11:41AM
Yeah, but we see things clearly, he doesn't.

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"Build yourselves a wall of ships!" said the Oracle!
Re: KAIROS WROTE: Why is homosexuality EVIL? Also why is fornication EVIL?
July 27, 2010 03:26PM
So does this mean that you agree that you, I, Ant, Jun, Sam, et. al. can argue in a consistent manner that Believer should not listen to his imaginary friend, but that the same argument is not available for other theists, pseudo theists, and some agnostics to make to Believer without their being at least inconsistent and probably hypocritical, as well?

This is one of the problems agnostics of a particular bent, pseudo-theists, other theists, et. al., have when they try to argue beliefs with fundamentalists. Once you've conceded the existence of God, which they often do, well, that is pretty much the whole enchilada. It's difficult to argue, for instance, that the Christian God as that god is portrayed in the bible doesn't declare homosexuality to be an abomination.

It is much easier and more consistent to argue as we atheists argue; namely, that it doesn't matter what the bible says because the bible has nothing to do with a god since no god exists as far as anyone has any rational reason to believe.

Some of those who do not consider belief in god to be irrational sometimes try to make the ludicrous argument that even if a good, omniscient god exists, that god should be disobeyed in particular situations. Arguments seldom get zanier than that, IMO.

Isn't it pretty obvious that if a good, omniscient god exists and that god tells you to murder your own daughter then, like Agamemnon, you should do it?
Re: KAIROS WROTE: Why is homosexuality EVIL? Also why is fornication EVIL?
July 27, 2010 03:51PM
"Once you've conceded the existence of God, which they often do, well, that is pretty much the whole enchilada. It's difficult to argue, for instance, that the Christian God as that god is portrayed in the bible doesn't declare homosexuality to be an abomination"

You know what "For the sake of argument" means, don't you. winking smiley Once you've conceded, "for the sake of argument", the existence of God, excellent arguments can be made that "Jesus", did not consider homosexuality to be an abomination, in fact, one strong piece of evidence is that he never even mentioned it. For those who sometimes enjoy debating fundamentalists, claiming that it doesn't matter what the Bible says, kinda' ruins the whole debate by ending it right there! All it can do is start a different debate. winking smiley "Does it matter what the Bible says?" Which of course eventually ends up with the existence of God debate.
Re: KAIROS WROTE: Why is homosexuality EVIL? Also why is fornication EVIL?
July 27, 2010 04:28PM
What are the excellent arguments that can be given to support the belief that Jesus did not consider homosexuality to be an abomination?

From what (admittedly little) I know about the situation, the opposite seems to be true.

Jesus said that marriage was for life. In all probability, Jesus, as did everyone else at the time, took marriage to mean the union of man and woman. He also said that a celibate life was acceptable for the sake of going to heaven. He made no mention of a third option, e.g., a homosexual union. It is of course possible that Jesus approved of homosexual unions but failed to mention it, but this seems extremely unlikely given mainstream Jewish belief toward homosexuality at the time.

Jesus also stated that he had come not to abolish the laws of the Old Testament (i.e., prophets) but to fulfill them. Only in very specific instances does he seem to amend or to abolish any of those laws altogether. He gives no indication of doing so in the case of homosexuality.

Unless you can provide some specific reference to Jesus in which he explicitly approves of homosexuality, you are unlikly to convince any Christian who believes that Jesus did not approve of homosexuality otherwise,.
Re: KAIROS WROTE: Why is homosexuality EVIL? Also why is fornication EVIL?
July 27, 2010 04:44PM
"Unless you can provide some specific reference to Jesus in which he explicitly approves of homosexuality, you are unlikly to convince any Christian who believes that Jesus did not approve of homosexuality otherwise,."---Henry

I'm not trying to convince them of any of that at this time. I'm explaining to you "why" it can sometimes be enjoyable to debate fundamentalists. It's the challenge to see if you can demonstrate what you think are contradictions or flaws within their belief system. Some people might not find that enjoyable and that's OK too.
Re: KAIROS WROTE: Why is homosexuality EVIL? Also why is fornication EVIL?
July 27, 2010 05:01PM
I didn't intend that to mean that a good debate isn't enjoyable. You should know by now that I love a good debate as much as anyone; possibly even too much. smiling smiley It's just that I think there is much more at stake when people's (homosexuals' in this instance) rights are at issue than merely having an enjoyable argument.

You wrote that "excellent arguments can be made that Jesus did not consider homosexuality to be an abomination." Since I am relatively unfamiliar with the Christian v homosexual debate, I was hoping you could provide, at least in summary, some of these arguments.

The arguments most seem to make on this board against the notion that the Christian God believes homosexuality to be an abomination seem to me to be fallacious. Don't they seem that way to you, too?
Re: KAIROS WROTE: Why is homosexuality EVIL? Also why is fornication EVIL?
July 27, 2010 05:17PM
"The arguments most seem to make on this board against the notion that the Christian God believes homosexuality to be an abomination seem to me to be fallacious. Don't they seem that way to you, too?"

No, I don't think they are fallacious. Of course you and I could debate this issue (You could be the fundy) and we could go over the same points that have been made here for years, but what would be the point when we have real fundys here (who probably have a better memory of Bible verses than you) with whom we can debate this issue (when we're so inclined)?
Re: KAIROS WROTE: Why is homosexuality EVIL? Also why is fornication EVIL?
July 27, 2010 08:53PM
Quote

Isn't it pretty obvious that if a good, omniscient god exists and that god tells you to murder your own daughter then, like Agamemnon, you should do it?

No revolt.

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"Build yourselves a wall of ships!" said the Oracle!
The Bible says, “Do you not know that the unrighteousness will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived, Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulteries, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God (1 Corinthians 6:9).”

Homosexuals cannot inherit the kingdom of God if they continue to practice their lifestyles until their last breathe on earth BUT if they will repent and change their lifestyles and follow God's way; then they can inherit the kingdom of God (The Bible declares).

Take note that God did not talk only for homosexuals but thieves and drunkards, etc.

They can marry with opposite sex as long as it is the framework of marriage between man and a woman according to the Bible. Again it is the framework of marriage between man and a woman. Not man with women or woman with men.

You remember: God did not create Adam and Steve. He did not create Eve and Mary but He created Adam and Eve.

Again - going back to the heart issue. A change heart will do God's way but a rebellious heart will continue to rebel against God.

God bless.
Re: KAIROS WROTE: Why is homosexuality EVIL? Also why is fornication EVIL?
July 27, 2010 09:59PM
How can you rebel against someone you can't see or hear from?

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"Build yourselves a wall of ships!" said the Oracle!
Re: KAIROS WROTE: Why is homosexuality EVIL? Also why is fornication EVIL?
July 27, 2010 09:59PM
"Take note that God did not talk only for homosexuals but thieves and drunkards, etc." -Believer

Yes we are all quite aware of those and many other comparisons, B.

Re: KAIROS WROTE: Why is homosexuality EVIL? Also why is fornication EVIL?
July 27, 2010 11:54PM
“Do you not know that the unrighteousness will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived, Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulteries, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God (1 Corinthians 6:9).” ---Believer

Keep in mind Believer, the words you are quoting are not Jesus' or God's words...they are the words of a guy named Paul.
Islander,

The Bible says, "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work (1 Timothy 3:16, 17).”

If you read carefully the passage; it tells us that "All Scripture" - it means from Genesis to Revelation. Then it tells us it is good for doctrine. The doctrine of Christ not doctrine of men as well a good for instruction, correction and reproof. If you search carefully the Scriptures you will find out that there are lessons to learn from the Bible characters either good or bad. The Bible says, "Depart from evil and do good."

This is God's word written by Paul. The Holy Spirit gave to Paul the knowledge to write these words for us so that we may live according to the instructions from the Author of the Bible – God- Himself - that those who choose to believe Him might have eternal life.

You might not agree what the Bible has to say but it is God's word.

Again – it is a choice to follow Jesus Christ.

God bless.
Re: KAIROS WROTE: Why is homosexuality EVIL? Also why is fornication EVIL?
July 28, 2010 12:49AM
"The Bible says, "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God,"---Believer

When are you going to acknowledge that the words you quote are the words of men.

Who do you think wrote 1 Timothy 3:16? Somebody other than a man?

Does it make it easier for you to believe something if you say, "The Bible says" instead of, "Paul says all Scripture is given by inspiration of God"?
Islander,

Paul is one of the writers of the Bible. So - I can say, The Bible says...

Does it offend you if I say the Bible says,...?

These are written for all of us and it is good for us if we believe. If you don't believe...again...it is a choice. God's heart is calling everyone to repentance because He knows your end if you do not repent.

God bless.
Re: KAIROS WROTE: Why is homosexuality EVIL? Also why is fornication EVIL?
July 28, 2010 01:22AM
"Does it offend you if I say the Bible says,...?"---Believer

Of Course not, I don't find that offensive.

I answered your question clearly and straightforwardly.

Now can you answer my question to you?

Does it make it easier for you to believe something if you say, "The Bible says", instead of the more informative, "Paul says all Scripture is given by inspiration of God"?
evil or sin is simply that which is contrary to the nature of god and his will for us.
Re: KAIROS WROTE: Why is homosexuality EVIL? Also why is fornication EVIL?
July 28, 2010 08:45PM
So if god said it was a sin not to kill your daughter you'd do it? Ala the case of Agammemnon as HMP presented?

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"Build yourselves a wall of ships!" said the Oracle!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/28/2010 08:45PM by Kairos.
pb
Re: KAIROS WROTE: Why is homosexuality EVIL? Also why is fornication EVIL?
July 28, 2010 08:49PM
kai,

Do you have problems with the possibility that there may be a good that exists beyond your understanding? Or, are you so presumptuous that you believe that you have everything figured out?
Re: KAIROS WROTE: Why is homosexuality EVIL? Also why is fornication EVIL?
July 28, 2010 09:14PM
linc Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If you believe the Bible, God also said that
> eating lobster is evil, as is sitting on a chair
> that has been sat on by a woman having her period.
> People used to believe a lot of quaint things
> about what God thinks is "evil," but even most
> believers have matured beyond the really absurd
> notions.

Not Link, it is an abomination. Please be careful with misrepresenting what God said.

Leviticus 11:9-12
These shall ye eat of all that are in the waters: whatsoever hath fins and scales in the waters, in the seas, and in the rivers, them shall ye eat. And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you: They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination. Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you.

God Bless.thumbs up

- LOL

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