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pb
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
January 05, 2010 09:39PM
isle,

If, for historical purposes, you want to explain the Resurrection in physical terms, “the resuscitation of a corpse”, this would then be a physical occurrence and would, for historical verification, be subject to the known empirical laws of the universe.

It certainly is a physical occurrence and, if you could subject the body to testing you could examine it, if Jesus allowed you to do it. He probably would still have rights to those who don't believe in His resurrection.

...it does seem to me, that the biblical stories suggest that they are describing a supernatural event (not a physical one) and Jesus’ “body” can hardly be described as his former physical corpse that was resuscitated. His “body” seems to have been transformed ( and has non-physical characteristics), it can “appear” to some people while being invisible to others, he is said never to have died again which a physical body would do, and his body is said to have “ascended” into an apparently non-physical place.

I'm a little sketchy on the biblical texts to which you refer.

When did His body appear to some people while it was invisible to others?

Re: "he is said never to have died again..." Explain.

"...his body is said to have “ascended” into an apparently non-physical place..." Well, His pre-crucifixion body is said to have walked on water. What your point?
pb
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
January 05, 2010 09:44PM
linc Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Science IS the investigation of reality-- that's
> the meaning of the word.

Actually, I think it is Latin for knowledge.

> That doesn't mean
> whatever is labeled 'science' is true, it just
> means that science is honest and self-critical,
> whereas your religious sect has earned a
> reputation for dishonesty rivaled only by lawyers
> (remember 'Intelligent Design'?).
>
> A lot of people would dismiss science as no better
> than reading tea leaves,

I don't think so.

> but science is still
> strong in our culture, and you better hope it
> stays that way. Science is so effective at
> understanding the way the world really is that you
> take the conveniences of modern life for granted.
> Supernaturalism has contributed nothing to this.

The scientific method deal only with the natural realm.
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
January 05, 2010 11:18PM
If miracles existed only in the 'supernatural realm' nobody would argue about it, but claims of walking on water and rising from the dead deal with the natural realm. If you can prove it happened, prove it; if not it's just talk.
pb
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
January 05, 2010 11:22PM
linc Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If miracles existed only in the 'supernatural
> realm' nobody would argue about it, but claims of
> walking on water and rising from the dead deal
> with the natural realm. If you can prove it
> happened, prove it; if not it's just talk.

To what parts of the physical universe would you think the supernatural realm might not extend?
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
January 05, 2010 11:36PM
The physical parts...?

Jun
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
January 05, 2010 11:45PM
Is there a reliable method which deals with the supernatural realm?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Juni {^á´¥^}


"Don't judge other people just because they sin differently from you!" ~ Anon

Three things you (probably) don't know about Islam
[www.youtube.com]

Welcome To Belgistan -- The New Muslim Capital Of Europe
[www.youtube.com]

pb
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
January 06, 2010 12:12AM
Jun Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Is there a reliable method which deals with the
> supernatural realm?

Wow, Wade. Kierkegaard'd love you.

Yeah.

Faith.

(Which you, to this moment, don't have and, therefore, can't pass judgment on.)
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
January 06, 2010 04:57AM
But, it's all I need to demonstrate that all you said in that post in factually in error. It also provides me with an opportunity to show that you lie about us and what we believe.

Shouldn't that be enough?


One factual error?! Wow burn me at the stake. Sorry pb I'm only human. However I still believe Marks 16. 1-8 is not much of a resurrection story compared to the other gospels.

So you've picked one factual error. What about the rest of points I've brought up in my posts? Are they factually correct? They must be considering the zeal you've shown in pointing out my errors.


Well, linc, it certainly isn't the place I'd go first.

Talk to ff. He brought it up.


Linc pb is being cagey again. We all know the first place he'd go, and he's gone there before several times in this thread alone. I've address his sole source and naturally he cannot counter anything I've posted about his magic talisman,1 Corinthians 15.

He hasn't addressed the inconsistency between the stories of Paul's encounter with the risen jesus in Acts compared to 1 Corinthians 15.8. He doesn't address the question Did Paul see Jesus or just hear a voice?

He hasn't addressed the fact that Paul gives no details about the resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15 except that Jesus died and rose on the third day.

He hasn't address the fact that Paul gives little to no details about Jesus' life and at times contradicts Jesus preachings.

He hasn't address the fact in 1 Corinthians 15 Paul clearly states that resurrection is more spirtiual than physical.

One letter by a man that never met Jesus, obviously knew very little about the man's life, death and supposed resurrection is the strongest evidence pb has for his claim Jesus rose from the dead. This is the same person who calls himself a historian. Now is this self deception or just plain lying?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/06/2010 08:17AM by Fascinated_foreigner.
Jun
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
January 06, 2010 07:57AM
pb Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Jun Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Is there a reliable method which deals with the
> > supernatural realm?
>
> Wow, Wade. Kierkegaard'd love you.
>
> Yeah.
>
> Faith.
>
> (Which you, to this moment, don't have and,
> therefore, can't pass judgment on.)

I do "utilise" faith for things which are "unknowable" at times, however I have no absolute faith in faith. You "deal" with the supernatural with "faith" I'd agree. But you can't "know" the supernatural through "faith". However when I used the word "deal" earlier, I've meant "to acquire factual knowledge regarding..." in contrast to this.

Faith is something that which when we've acknowledge that certain things are just unknowable, and thus we'd "just have faith" and accept one way or the other (according to our prejudice and wants).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Juni {^á´¥^}


"Don't judge other people just because they sin differently from you!" ~ Anon

Three things you (probably) don't know about Islam
[www.youtube.com]

Welcome To Belgistan -- The New Muslim Capital Of Europe
[www.youtube.com]

Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
January 06, 2010 11:00AM
What pb calls "faith" most people would just call "self-deception"-- no different than the Heaven's Gate cult that thought they were going to be whisked away on a spaceship hidden in comet Hale-Bopp if they just ate poison yogurt. The word faith is more legitimately used to mean loyalty or devotion to an intangible thing such as honor, love or patriotism rather than a credulous acceptance of bizarre claims. Faith healers such as Peter Popoff trade in a false faith that is really gullibility.
pb
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
January 06, 2010 01:25PM
One factual error?!

No!

But, this is yet another one.
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
January 06, 2010 01:56PM
"It [the Resurrection] certainly is a physical occurrence"---pb

If it was, we can apply the natural laws to it and the resurrection would have violated those laws and it’s reliability would be subject to the empirical evidence that demonstrates that it couldn't have happened any more than elephants can or could have flown. If it were a supernatural rather than a physical occurrence, there would’t be any laws…so anything could have happened.

"I'm a little sketchy on the biblical texts to which you refer. When did His body appear to some people while it was invisible to others?"

Mark 16:9, 12

Now when He rose early on the first day of the week, He appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom He had cast seven demons.

He also appeared in a different form (remember this is supposed to be a “physical body”). Physical bodies don’t take “different forms”.

Afterward Jesus appeared in a different form to two of them while they were walking in the country.

Yet when Paul encountered Jesus on the road to Damascus, Paul was blinded but the men that were with him weren’t. They could hear Jesus talking but they couldn’t “see him”.

"Re: "he is said never to have died again..." Explain."

What part don’t you understand? Physical bodies last, at most , about 120 years and they all die. When do you think Jesus resurrected body died?

"Well, His pre-crucifixion body is said to have walked on water"

So, do you want to claim that as an historical fact too?
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
January 06, 2010 02:10PM
"The physical parts...?"---Pondy

This is probably one of many areas in which I differ from pb. I have little doubt that there is more to reality than what we can experience in the touch, see, feel, realm. I think there are aspects of reality that transcend what we can physically experience. Pb would probably call those aspects of transcendent reality the supernatural. For him it seems, supernatural acts can violate the laws of the touch, see, feel, realm. As I said, I, personally think there might be what pb calls the supernatural, but I wouldn’t call it that because even though it transcends the physical reality that we experience…it transcends it but is compatible with it. It violates none of what we call natural law. Think of living in a two dimensional reality. In a flat, two-dimensional reality, we have the laws of geometry, a triangle has three sides etc. That’s all we’re capable of experiencing with our senses. We’d have no concept of volume in that world, however, if we add a third dimension, we now not only have flat triangles, but we can understand a pyramid and the concept of volume, which is not conceivable in a two-dimensional reality. Yet everything in the three dimensional reality is completely compatible with the two dimensional one. It violates none of its laws. My guess is, pb, in the two dimensional world, would consider volume something supernatural .
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
January 06, 2010 03:17PM
I have little doubt that there is more to reality than what we can experience in the touch, see, feel, realm. I think there are aspects of reality that transcend what we can physically experience.-islander

i wonder how anyone could know that.

personally i feel this way about that: its possible that parts of reality lie beyond our ability including our technological ability to sense but theres no reason to believe anything in particular about it.

there may be a god or an invisible flying spaghetti monster who actually controls parts of reality but there is no reason to believe that there is.
pb
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
January 06, 2010 03:26PM
isle,

If it was, we can apply the natural laws to it and the resurrection would have violated those laws and it’s reliability would be subject to the empirical evidence that demonstrates that it couldn't have happened any more than elephants can or could have flown. If it were a supernatural rather than a physical occurrence, there would’t be any laws…so anything could have happened.

There is evidence--from the gospels, at least--that the event was investigated and the laws of nature thoroughly considered. The tomb was searched and found to be empty. If the resurrection was merely a spiritual phenomenon, the body would not have been affected. But, the testimony of the gospels clearly makes the point that the body was not in the grave. In the famous 'Doubting Thomas' story, Thomas started out just like you: as a first-class sciencist. He demanded to be able to stick his finger in the hole in Jesus' hand and his hand in Jesus' side. You're acting as if there was no investigation of the claims that Jesus rose from the grave took place.

The fact is that the testimony of the Gospels is that all the followers of Jesus started out sciencists with your frame of mind and became convinced that a physical resurrection took place.

"I'm a little sketchy on the biblical texts to which you refer. When did His body appear to some people while it was invisible to others?"

Mark 16:9, 12


Hmmm.

What kind of whacky Bible do you have? In my Bible the last verse in Mark is 16:8. Now, if the game is to start making up Bible verses, let me know. I'm sure I can come up with some real doozies that'd make your head spin. hot smiley

"Re: "he is said never to have died again..." Explain."

What part don’t you understand? Physical bodies last, at most , about 120 years and they all die. When do you think Jesus resurrected body died?

I want to know who said that He never died again. You said, that that's said. Who said it? Where? When? In what context?

"Well, His pre-crucifixion body is said to have walked on water"

So, do you want to claim that as an historical fact too?


At least I can tell you where that is said.

I'll claim that in another thread another time. I'm not a sciencist. You are demonstrating that YOU are.
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