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Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
January 02, 2010 06:07AM
You are correct we don't know HOW MANY Christians were being oppressed. We do know of six, based on Paul's first hand authetic accounting.-pb

so paul was actually present when six early christians were being oppressed and wasnt just told about it by someone else who may have heard rumors about it from someone else who may have simply made it up? id like to read pauls account of this. do you remember where this is written about in the bible?
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
January 02, 2010 03:06PM
“But, the point is that you are acknowleding that what you are doing is believing. The only difference between us is that I acknowledge that I am believing and you are not. All I'm asking from you on this point is honesty for you WITH YOURSELF.---pb

Slowly read your first two sentences…do you always contradict yourself like that?

I think you are still trying to claim that I don’t acknowledge that my belief about dead people not come back from the dead is a belief. You need to get yourself back to school and study up on epistemology and learn a bit about “beliefs” and the role they play when we say we know something. Some beliefs are warranted, and some are not, and I doubt you even know that this is what we are arguing here, whether your, or my belief about the body of a dead person “coming back to life” is warranted. . LOL!

Here’s the real difference between us, pb. I am honest with myself, which is why, unlike you, I can be perfectly honest when I’m engaged in a debate with my opponents here on the board. Do you really imagine that if you claim, enough times, that I don’t acknowledge that I’m believing, it will magically become true, and the readers themselves will begin to believe it? Uh-uh. Ya can’t pull the “Big Lie” trick here and expect to fool the readers. The readers here are fully aware that the truth is totally different than what you’re trying to pawn off on them, and they understand why.

When it comes to believing whether or not a person, actually dead for three days, came back to life, or even can come back to life, there are solid reasons based on empirical evidence which are prior to my belief, and which warrant my belief that such a claim did not happen. Like I said, “I can't prove it to you conclusively, but my reasons are strong enough that I will assert it is true and assume it as a valid and rational assumption until we have better evidence demonstrating that I should reject it…And your evidence is? “Oral testimony in the form of someone’s 2000 year old letters”!

And remember, pb, we both agreed that empirical evidence trumps oral evidence. I have empirical evidence…you are only presenting me with oral testimony.

Now, if you want to assume the reality of a miraculous resurrection, grounded on presuppositions and beliefs about a supernatural realm, you’re perfectly free to do so, millions do, and they acknowledge that it a “faith based belief”. Are you ashamed to admit to a faith based belief?
Anonymous User
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
January 02, 2010 03:40PM
Isle, what empirical evidence do you have? The dead, lifeless body of Jesus is the only thing I could think of that would qualify as 'empirical evidence'.
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
January 02, 2010 04:53PM
Jeurgen, "the word empirical denotes information gained by means of observation, experience, or experiment."---web definition.

We have the ability to observe, through "hands on" experiments, what happens to body tissues and cells when deprived of oxygen. Brain cells, for instance, quickly die and decompose. We know that even if oxygen is restored to necrotic brain cells, they cannot be restored to living cells again. If you can present empirical evidence that brain cells, dead for three days, can be brought back to life, my position on this would change.

If Jesus were actually dead for three days, based on the empirical evidence that we do have, his body could not be "brought back to life".
Anonymous User
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
January 02, 2010 05:29PM
Isle, I'm going to keep pressing this, because your arguments don't cut it.

We're all aware that bodies decompose after death and don't come back to life. But, we're talking about a documented exception to the rule, not the rule. What you have to show us is that:

a. there is empirical evidence which proves that this documented exception didn't happen (e.g. the body), or

b. the documented exception couldn't logically have happened.

So far you've failed to do either.
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
January 02, 2010 05:53PM
Let me get this straight... If I make a claim that violates all the rules of physical science, it's automatically true unless you or someone else can prove with empirical evidence that it didn't happen or prove that it logically couldn't have happened?

That's absurd!

The onus would be on me to prove with empirical evidence that my claim is true.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/02/2010 05:56PM by PowerToThePeople.
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
January 02, 2010 05:59PM
Juerg,

Do you know anything about forensics?

When a decomposed body is found, and we have forensic evidence, which is grounded on empirical evidence, that shows the time of death to be at least two weeks ago based on the degree of decomposition, etc, and we have evidence in the form of a letter claiming that the person was alive 2 hours ago, the claim that the person couldn't have been alive two hours ago trumps the letter (document) claiming the person was alive two hours ago.

We could find an old letter that was accepted as genuine letter written at the time, that claims Christopher Columbus and his crew flew across the Atlantic on elephants and discovered America...We discount that based on the empirical evidence that elephants can't fly.
Anonymous User
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
January 02, 2010 06:30PM
Yeah, forensics are great. They don't really work when you haven't got a body to apply them to, though, do they? Show me Jesus' body, Isle, and you'll be proven right without even needing forensics.
Jun
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
January 02, 2010 06:58PM
A dinosaur ate it.

Ultimately, it isn't a matter of forensic evidence. Although if the exact location of Jesus' burial place is confidently "known", someone might be able to investigate the site or possible sites. But if bones were found, only if something else (like markings with his name on it etc) can one have some level of confidence that the remains might actually be Jesus'.

However for a 'positive' confirmation of Jesus' resurrection, the fact that Jesus' remains has not been found does not cut it. Ancient legends written about witnesses of him after being confirmed dead for a good period isn't very strong evidence of that either. There are just some things that can never be known with a substantial amount of certainty since we are not omniscient and the "time-distance" of which we can look into the past and "know" what as occurred is highly limited. However, science and reason has extended that. But for those that goes beyond the reach of even scientific means, for a believe to be possible you'd have to rely on faith.

i.e. It is possible to prove that Jesus has NOT resurrect and "ascended into heaven(?)", but you can not prove that he had without something really extraordinary.

For instance, I've lost my keys when I was drunk and have absolutely no memory where it could possibly be. I can easily demonstrate that it is not in my pocket and any where that I've looked. The fact that my key is still no where to found is no proof that a bogey man got it, or that it grew legs and decided to walked off. In the meanwhile it is impossible to know its location or what had happened to it until it is found. The scenario where a bogey man stole it is disproved instantly when the keys are found.

However, the lost key-example is still not a good parallel to the difficulty for Jesus' case where it occurred thousands of years ago, and only ancient uncovered scriptures which talks about it remains; similar to Buddha's case -- where he have reportedly performed countless miracles too. Any number of none-supernatural things could too have happened to his body IF the 'missing-body' legend is factual. Any supernatural explanations would naturally require a lot more than ancient legends to be accepted by any rational minds (who rely on "reason').

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Juni {^á´¥^}


"Don't judge other people just because they sin differently from you!" ~ Anon

Three things you (probably) don't know about Islam
[www.youtube.com]

Welcome To Belgistan -- The New Muslim Capital Of Europe
[www.youtube.com]

pb
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
January 02, 2010 08:16PM
PowerToThePeople Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Filling my head with Christian dogma as soon as I
> could understand English instead of allowing me to
> find God/Jesus on my own.
>
> OTOH, I realize that it was all well intended, and
> I certainly hold no malice towards my family or
> church. In fact, I enjoyed most of my church
> experiences.
>
> Indoctrination comes in many forms, e.g.
> political, ideological. In some families, children
> are indocrinated to be fans of certain sports
> teams. Some children are indoctrinated to hate gay
> people, or conservatives, or liberals. Or to eat
> certain foods. Or to appreciate a certain genre of
> music. There probably isn't any facet of our lives
> where some indocrination hasn't taken place. It's
> very difficult to avoid being on either end of
> indoctrination. Most people participate in it
> without even giving it a thought.

What concerns me is when the passing on from one generation to another is conceived of as a kind of intellectual abuse, even intellectual rape. It amuses/disturbs me when children of any age accuse their parents of evil when all they were doing was imbuing them with the most basic principles of life in society--don't steal, don't lie, don't kill--in a Christian framework.

What some call indoctrination is merely social training.

I've known very few parents, Christian or otherwise, who engage in that sort of child rearing in a way that is intellectually abusive. Though I know of many children who, looking back, consider themselves to have been intellectually abused. The problem in those cases, I suspect, is with the self-image of the child, not with the actions of the parents.
pb
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
January 02, 2010 08:19PM
indy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You are correct we don't know HOW MANY Christians
> were being oppressed. We do know of six, based on
> Paul's first hand authetic accounting.-pb
>
> so paul was actually present when six early
> christians were being oppressed and wasnt just
> told about it by someone else who may have heard
> rumors about it from someone else who may have
> simply made it up?
yes

And, by his testimony to the Corinthians, Paul was one of the six.

> id like to read pauls account
> of this. do you remember where this is written
> about in the bible?

There are several. But, honestly indy, you don't come across as a serious seeker of knowledge. This is real 101 stuff and it seems to be above your level of interest.

Help yourself. If you don't have a Bible, you can find one at any library.
pb
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
January 02, 2010 08:24PM
“But, the point is that you are acknowleding that what you are doing is believing. The only difference between us is that I acknowledge that I am believing and you are not. All I'm asking from you on this point is honesty for you WITH YOURSELF.---pb

Slowly read your first two sentences…do you always contradict yourself like that?
isle

Right.

There are those brief moments when you will, I suspect by the accident of language or the unartful choice or words, express an awareness that you believe. But, then you slip into your standard, harda$$ sciencist fundyism.

Here’s the real difference between us, pb. I am honest with myself...

As the Everly Bros sang, "Dreaaaaaam, dream. dream, dream, dreaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaam."
pb
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
January 02, 2010 08:26PM
Juergen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Isle, I'm going to keep pressing this, because
> your arguments don't cut it.
>
> We're all aware that bodies decompose after death
> and don't come back to life. But, we're talking
> about a documented exception to the rule, not the
> rule. What you have to show us is that:
>
> a. there is empirical evidence which proves that
> this documented exception didn't happen (e.g. the
> body), or
>
> b. the documented exception couldn't logically
> have happened.
>
> So far you've failed to do either.

This is where you best me, J., I can't seem to muster patience for this.

Bon chance, mon ami.
pb
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
January 02, 2010 08:28PM
Juergen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yeah, forensics are great. They don't really work
> when you haven't got a body to apply them to,
> though, do they? Show me Jesus' body, Isle, and
> you'll be proven right without even needing
> forensics.

J.,

You are a better man than I--bearing fruit of the Spirit that I don't have.
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
January 02, 2010 09:54PM
"Yeah, forensics are great. They don't really work when you haven't got a body to apply them to, though, do they? Show me Jesus' body, Isle, and you'll be proven right without even needing forensics. We’re dealing with a story here."--- Juerg

The forensic examples demonstrated how we use empirical evidence from the present to demonstrate what happened (or didn’t happen) in the past.

We have stories about a person named Jesus. In those stories he was killed and purportedly came back to life several days later. Did this actually happen, was it an actual historic event? How do we make a determination? We weigh the evidence. In favor of it having happened the strongest evidence we have is oral testimony in the form of a couple of letters from someone claiming it did happen. We have, however, empirical evidence, demonstrating why bodies that have been dead for three days can’t come back to life. We don’t need to have Jesus’ dead body to demonstrate why, if we accept that he really was dead for three days, his body could not come back to life, we have empirical evidence to demonstrates that. Empirical evidence trumps oral testimony.

Like I told pb, "if you want to assume the reality of a miraculous resurrection, grounded on presuppositions and beliefs about a supernatural realm, you’re perfectly free to do so, millions do, and they acknowledge that it is a “faith based belief”.
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