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Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
December 31, 2009 09:40PM
“Don't accuse me of saying things that I'm not saying. I'm not saying anything about God.”---pb

Your assertion was, “What you won't admit is that the Christian explanation of the historical data explains the data is a very comprehensive way”---The "Christian explanation" for the transgression of natural law that makes this miracle possible depends on and presupposes the existence of God.

“What I've been doing in the last half of this thread is discussing history, not theology.”

But you haven’t, you’re still mixing the two and here’s why. Right after making the above claim, you say, once again, “ I'm merely asserting that the explanation provided by the early Christian movement is, as I've quoted above, 'very comprehensive.' It suggests that Jesus rose from the dead and ascended into heaven.”. Contained in that statement is the presupposition that there is a place called “heaven”, that Jesus miraculously rose from the dead and miraculously ascended into this place called heaven. The Christian explanation is that these transgressions of natural law were made possible by the power of God.

Staying strictly within the study of, and the interpretation of history, empirical evidence trumps oral testimony all the time! If we have empirical evidence that a painting was done in the 15th century, that evidence trumps the oral claims made by an artist from the 17th century, no matter how famous or renowned the artist might be, that "he" was the artist who painted the picture (even if we grant that he himself sincerely believed he painted it).

We have empirical evidence that a person dead for three days, cannot come back to life. If we are going to discuss this strictly as an historical interpretation, "that empirical evidence" trumps letters from someone claiming that he and others had seen a person who had been dead for three days, “alive once again”!

Now to your other questions,

“1. What happened to the body of Jesus?” …We don’t know.

"2.. Why did none of the people who claimed to have seen him alive after death admit that the claim of the resurrection was a hoax--to the point that, as 2 Cor. 11 makes clear, they were being violently oppressed for proclaiming the Christian message?…We have no reliable evidence that I know of, that “nobody” at that time thought it was a hoax, nor do we have any that there” were” people who thought it was a hoax. We don’t know how many early Christians who were being oppressed ever actually saw a risen Christ, nor do we know how many might have or might not have renounced their beliefs if they thought their life depended on them doing that.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/31/2009 09:45PM by islander.
pb
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
December 31, 2009 10:14PM
Your assertion was, “What you won't admit is that the Christian explanation of the historical data explains the data is a very comprehensive way”---The "Christian explanation" for the transgression of natural law that makes this miracle possible depends on and presupposes the existence of God.

The Christian explanation presupposes that Jesus had a body and that your side can't find and can't explain what happened to it as well as we can. You are glad to explain the facts that are known by a better theory if you can come up with one.

We have no reliable evidence that I know of, that “nobody” at that time thought it was a hoax, nor do we have any that there” were” people who thought it was a hoax. We don’t know how many early Christians who were being oppressed ever actually saw a risen Christ, nor do we know how many might have or might not have renounced their beliefs if they thought their life depended on them doing that.

Juergen,

I'm sure you're following this.

What do you think is going on here? Is isle aware that he's overmatched by facts--not me, of course--and unwilling to engage in honest conversation or is he just so stupid that he can't keep up with the discussion?

isle,

There is the evidence in ancient Christian sources, certainly second hand sources, but very ancient indeed, that the word was put out that Jesus' disciples stole the body. You were raised Catholic. You know that. That you think that I wouldn't know that or that J wouldn't is a little odd. But, okay.

You are correct we don't know HOW MANY Christians were being oppressed. We do know of six, based on Paul's first hand authetic accounting. Again, you were raised Catholic. You don't have some form of dementia, do you?

It is highly unlikely that any self-proclaimed witness that Jesus was alive after death recanted. Considering the ferocity of Roman and Jewish opposition, if any had, the fact that they turned would have been loudly trumpeted and I'm absolutely certain that you're brain is still sharp enough to apprehend that fact.

It continue to fascinate me, isle, that when facts are presented to you, you SEEM TO lose about 50 IQ points.
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
December 31, 2009 11:04PM
Another emotional tirade! Complete with an abundance of ad hominems! LOL!

Once you've calmed down, pb, would you like to take a stab at actually addressing the points I made? smoking smiley
pb
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
December 31, 2009 11:46PM
islander Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Another emotional tirade! Complete with an
> abundance of ad hominems! LOL!
>
> Once you've calmed down, pb, would you like to
> take a stab at actually addressing the points I
> made? smoking smiley

In all honesty, isle, I wasn't kidding about the IQ drop.

I'm trying to convince myself that you were just playing dumb. Now, you're suggesting that you think you made real points and I guess I'm going to have to take that seriously.

But you haven’t, you’re still mixing the two and here’s why. Right after making the above claim, you say, once again, “ I'm merely asserting that the explanation provided by the early Christian movement is, as I've quoted above, 'very comprehensive.' It suggests that Jesus rose from the dead and ascended into heaven.”.

Contained in that statement is the presupposition that there is a place called “heaven”, that Jesus miraculously rose from the dead and miraculously ascended into this place called heaven. The Christian explanation is that these transgressions of natural law were made possible by the power of God.
-- isle

The Christian explanation is what it is, isle.

Yes, it suggests that events that can't be accounted for by natural law took place. But, I'm not asking you to believe it.

I'm asking you to suggest a theory that accounts for the facts in a way that is more convincing. This is a discussion of historical data. It's not a plea that you repent of your sins and believe the Good News.

You're trying to tell me that you're not a sciencist fundy but when I ask you to engage in a discussion of historical data that may point to the fact that the events can't be accounted for by science, you, well, shut down.

By all means, my friend, be scientific about this but also understand that Christianity is a part human history. It's body of thought is signficant in human history. It has dominated Western Culture for most of the last 2,000 years. And, if we're going to discuss history--particularly if we're talking about Jesus--we are going to have to acknowledge that the Christian community has its own thought.

So, discuss history.

If you can trash the Christian view, based on the data, by all means do it. If you can't--and if you have the intellectual courage, admit that. It might do you some good.

Staying strictly within the study of, and the interpretation of history, empirical evidence trumps oral testimony all the time! If we have empirical evidence that a painting was done in the 15th century, that evidence trumps the oral claims made by an artist from the 17th century, no matter how famous or renowned the artist might be, that "he" was the artist who painted the picture (even if we grant that he himself sincerely believed he painted it).

Wow! Finally! We agree on something!

We have empirical evidence that a person dead for three days, cannot come back to life. If we are going to discuss this strictly as an historical interpretation, "that empirical evidence" trumps letters from someone claiming that he and others had seen a person who had been dead for three days, “alive once again”!

Cannot?

Really?

Gang,

I tried.

isle, you are to sciencist fundyism what Pat Robertson couldn't be to Christian Fundyism. Yeah. We know what you believe. You believe it with all your heart. You try to deny that you believe it, but believe it you do.

Try prying open that mind of yours, my friend.

You cannot prove that everything must be explainable by natural law. So, just admit that what you believe you actually believe.
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
January 01, 2010 03:51AM
isander is so kicking ass in this thread it aint funny.
pb
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
January 01, 2010 03:54AM
indy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> isander is so kicking ass in this thread it aint
> funny.

Subjectivity certainly is truth.
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
January 01, 2010 04:12AM
And religious indoctrination is one of the most powerful forms of brainwashing ever invented.

***

"When they say there’s not enough money, they mean there’s not enough money for YOU." - Jill Stein, Green Party presidential nominee.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/01/2010 04:15AM by PowerToThePeople.
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
January 01, 2010 03:11PM
"And religious indoctrination is one of the most powerful forms of brainwashing ever invented."---PTTP

You are right. Since religion is an emotional response to life, and one's emotions can make mince meat out of one's intelligence, a person's intelligence alone, does not ensure that he or she cannot be manipulated by another if that other person has a talent for appealing to, and using people's emotions to bend and shape their thinking. And once "hooked", the manipulated, as often as not, become manipulators themselves.
pb
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
January 01, 2010 03:28PM
PowerToThePeople Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And religious indoctrination is one of the most
> powerful forms of brainwashing ever invented.

Tell that to the Catholics who are shutting down churches all over America left and right. If religious indoctrination is so powerful, why is American Catholicism crumbling?

You're beginning to come across like sam, pt. Thanks for trying, but you'll never take her place in my heart.
pb
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
January 01, 2010 03:34PM
islander Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "And religious indoctrination is one of the most
> powerful forms of brainwashing ever
> invented."---PTTP
>
> You are right. Since religion is an emotional
> response to life, and one's emotions can make
> mince meat out of one's intelligence, a person's
> intelligence alone, does not ensure that he or she
> cannot be manipulated by another if that other
> person has a talent for appealing to, and using
> people's emotions to bend and shape their
> thinking. And once "hooked", the manipulated, as
> often as not, become manipulators themselves.

Curious, isle, You yourself are a testimony to the impotence of religious brainwashing. The Catholics had you at every point in your life when your mind could be numbed by the power of religious brainwashing. And, you came out the other end of that denying the very possibility that what you were brainwashed to believe could be true.
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
January 01, 2010 04:12PM
"You cannot prove that everything must be explainable by natural law. So, just admit that what you believe you actually believe."---pb

Hmmm…you’re really losing it now pb, if you think that I’ve been trying to argue that I don’t believe what I believe! LOL!

What I’ve been doing is using the accepted logic that is used by, and has been used by, major thinkers of the past and present (actually, virtually everyone uses it) . I have a good reason to assume, based on empirical evidence, that a person dead for three days, can’t “come back to life”. I can't prove it to you conclusively, but my reasons are strong enough that I will assert it is true and assume it as a valid and rational assumption until we have better evidence demonstrating that we should reject it…And your evidence is? “Oral testimony in the form of someone’s 2000 year old letters”!

Remember, pb, we both agreed that empirical evidence trumps oral evidence. I have empirical evidence…you are only presenting me with oral testamony winking smiley
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
January 01, 2010 04:16PM
"Curious, isle, You yourself are a testimony to the impotence of religious brainwashing. The Catholics had you at every point in your life when your mind could be numbed by the power of religious brainwashing. And, you came out the other end of that denying the very possibility that what you were brainwashed to believe could be true."---pb

I don’t know how to explain that, my guess is that some people are more prone to the effects of emotional manipulation and others are less prone to it. Why that seems to be the case is something I find extremely interesting and aside from the fun we can have here arguing, I think ya might be able to gain some insights into this phenomenon, it's one of the more interesting aspects of participating on a board like this.

PS
I haven't entirely escaped the influence of having been brought up and educated within the realm of Catholicism. I think that would be impossible. It has helped shape my present thinking even though my conclusions differ in many respects from the official teachings of the Church.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/01/2010 04:33PM by islander.
Anonymous User
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
January 01, 2010 04:38PM
pb Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Juergen,
>
> I'm sure you're following this.
>
> What do you think is going on here? Is isle aware
> that he's overmatched by facts--not me, of
> course--and unwilling to engage in honest
> conversation or is he just so stupid that he can't
> keep up with the discussion?

It might be something to do with the new 'tude. Most probably he started to realise that the whole Science and Reason thing is on a lot more shaky grounds than he had initially assumed and decided it would be easier to just dismiss and laugh off any new doctrinal challenges than face a world of uncertainty. I don't like calling people stupid, so that's probably the next best explanation.
pb
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
January 01, 2010 04:44PM
islander Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "You cannot prove that everything must be
> explainable by natural law. So, just admit that
> what you believe you actually believe."---pb
>
> Hmmm…you’re really losing it now pb, if you
> think that I’ve been trying to argue that I
> don’t believe what I believe! LOL!

isle,

Over the years I've done a lot of work in the area of conflict management. One of the basic principles of conflict theory is that a person handles differences between him/herself differently when s/he is under stress than when s/he is not. What I'm saying is that I have observed that, when you are pushed, you demonstrate faith in different things than you espouse when you are calm.

When you are pushed you retreat into sciencist fundyism. I know that you deny that but you do.

I won't argue it with you.

I only have your words here and I'm tellling you what I observe and that is what I observe.

J has noted that you seem bipolar lately and I've noted that there is inconsistency in what you say here. My theory is not that you need to grab some lithium but that there is a significant differene between calm isle and stressed isle. And, that's okay. It's normal for all of us to some degree. What Jesus would say is that you can glimpse your real self if and when you can be honest about the real you that appears when you are not under control.
>
> What I’ve been doing is using the accepted logic
> that is used by, and has been used by, major
> thinkers of the past and present (actually,
> virtually everyone uses it) .

Well, some of them. The ones you want to use to justify what you want to think. Certainly you are not relying heavily on Muhammed or Pascal, to name just a few. My point in making this observation is to point out to you that what you claim is neither possible because there isn't agreement on these things among major thinkers so that it would be impossible for you to do what you think you are doing.

> I have a good reason
> to assume, based on empirical evidence, that a
> person dead for three days, can’t “come back
> to life”.

You do, if one accepts the presumptions upon which you make your assumptions. You are presuming and then assuming.

But, the point is that you are acknowleding that what you are doing is believing. The only difference between us is that I acknowledge that I am believing and you are not. All I'm asking from you on this point is honesty for you WITH YOURSELF.

I think that I have 'good reason to assume,' based on historical data, what I assume but I understand that I am believing. When it comes down to it, you think that you've proven that what I believe cannot be true. But, you haven't. You merely BELIEVE that what I believe can't be true.

I've been saying this to you for years. We are both believers. When pushed, you can't admit that of yourself.

When I introduced the historical data from Paul's ancient letter, you spoke of what is possible and what is impossible--based merely and solely on what you believe to be true and what you believe to be untrue.

I know I can't convince you to believe what I believe. I'd love though, to convince you to summon the courage to be honest with and about yourself.

> I can't prove it to you conclusively,
> but my reasons are strong enough that I will
> assert it is true and assume it as a valid and
> rational assumption until we have better evidence
> demonstrating that we should reject it…And your
> evidence is? “Oral testimony in the form of
> someone’s 2000 year old letters”!

IOW, you will believe what you believe for the reasons you decide to believe it. Good. Fine. We're both believers.
>
> Remember, pb, we both agreed that empirical
> evidence trumps oral evidence. I have empirical
> evidence…you are only presenting me with oral
> testamony winking smiley

Wow! Quite the zinger there.

I suspect that I don't believe from that what you believe from it.

My wife has lupus, as you know. And, I encourage her to take her medication regularly and I can see that her illness is controlled by the medication. But, that doesn't stop me from praying daily that she will be healed and believing that our gracious Lord may choose, someday, to heal her.

All I want you to acknowledge is that we, both of us, believe what we believe about this.
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
January 01, 2010 06:11PM
"Tell that to the Catholics who are shutting down churches all over America left and right. If religious indoctrination is so powerful, why is American Catholicism crumbling?" -pb

It's impossible to convince people to give you money they no longer have.

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