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Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!

Posted by PalinIsTheTruth 
pb
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
December 29, 2009 09:32PM
Juergen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> pb Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > No, I don't ASSUME they must be miracle.
> >
> > Now, do you ASSUME that they cannot be?
> >
> > No, I don't think they MUST be true.
> >
> > Do you possess a worldview that prohibits you
> from
> > considering the possibility that they MAY be
> > true?
>
> Indy & Isle,
>
> I think if you guys could just admit this - that
> you have a worldview that assumes that miracles
> can not happen - all our other differences on this
> issue would melt away. For some reason (perhaps
> fear of the unknown?) your minds just seem stuck
> in this way of thinking even though you can't
> justify it in any way. I know it'd be pretty much
> impossible to convince youse that these miracles
> actually happened, but I think if you could just
> admit that your assumption is just that - an
> assumption - we may have gotten somewhere.

Amen, J..

But, their identity is wrapped up in the myth that they are people of reason. They are deluded in that but it would take more courage than they have ever displayed here to make that admission.
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
December 29, 2009 11:55PM
“All I'm suggesting is true in this passage is that it was the honest recollection of Paul that he had performed signs, wonders and miracles in the presence of these people and that those acts validated his belief that he was an apostle.”---pb

And I’m reminding you that today we have a better understanding of psychology and are well aware of the weaknesses inherent in human nature when trying to convince others, even of something one believes to be true, exaggeration and hyperbole can easily be justified, at least to oneself.

“But, it does require one to acknowledge the existence of the events that were labeled as, in this case, signs, wonders and miracles.”

The existence of events that were labeled as signs, wonders and miracles, is not even in question…the question is, if a purported event that would normally be considered impossible, is labeled “a miracle”, what kind of evidence would we need before we could assume it to be true, verses the kind of evidence needed to assume a purported event which would not violate any known natural laws and would normally be considered possible?

“Do you possess a worldview that prohibits you from considering the possibility that they [miracles] MAY be true?”

No.

“And, your cynical modern worldview defines, merely as a matter of your own modernist faith, what is and what is not possible. I'm not a modernist.”

Wrong. My view of what is possible is based on our knowledge and understanding of the known physical laws of the universe and the rules of logic. I’m well aware that our present knowledge is incomplete and that my views could change based on new information. However, I believe, for instance, based on these laws, that it would be impossible for me to physically jump from my back deck, all the way to the moon, spend a day there collecting rock specimens, and then jump all the way back to the earth with my collection. According to your world-view…would you say it is possible for me to do that?

"Don't think for a moment, isle, that you are not bringing presumption into your interpretation of this passage. You are guilty my friend, of doing precisely what you accuse me of."

Whoa! Don’t you read what those you debate write? We ALL bring our presuppositions with us! Here is what I said, “Much of history will be, and always has been, dependent on the presuppositions of the interpreter. The degree to which an interpretation has value will depend on whether the presuppositions are good or bad.”

For an historian, I think most will agree that a good presupposition might be something like, “A primary source is more reliable than a secondary source, that is more reliable than a tertiary source and so on.” Or. “When two sources disagree (and other means of evaluation are scant), then historians take the source which seems to accord best with common sense”.

For an historian to attempt to interpret past events based on presuppositions of the reality of magic, the occult, the supernatural, which rely on a mode of rationality or way of thinking that looks to invisible forces beyond the natural world to influence events and/or effect change in material conditions that would otherwise be considered impossible...well...I think most will agree that would be an example of a bad presupposition for an historian to bring into his or her interpretations.

In my opinion, you’d do poorly as an historian simply because you are too powerfully influenced by your supernatural religious presuppositions, since, 'if' what you're trying to convince others to accept as an acceptable historical event...that a person dead for three days came back to life...didn’t happen…then, like Paul, all your religious beliefs fall apart. That’s too powerful for you to ignore.
pb
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
December 30, 2009 12:35AM
And I’m reminding you that today we have a better understanding of psychology and are well aware of the weaknesses inherent in human nature when trying to convince others, even of something one believes to be true, exaggeration and hyperbole can easily be justified, at least to oneself.

Y'know. isle, that's one of the myths to which you subscribe. We may, indeed, have a formalized understand of psychology as an intellectual discipline, but I disagree with your haughty modernist assertion that we have a better understanding of the workings of the human mind and of the weaknesses of human nature.

This is exactly what I warned you that you would not be able to do. You are incapable of not assuming that you know better and ARE better than this guy whose thought still inspirese geniuses nearly two millenia after he assumed room temperature.

The existence of events that were labeled as signs, wonders and miracles, is not even in question…the question is, if a purported event that would normally be considered impossible, is labeled “a miracle”, what kind of evidence would we need before we could assume it to be true, verses the kind of evidence needed to assume a purported event which would not violate any known natural laws and would normally be considered possible?

What you mean, "We," white man? -- Tonto

Don't lump me in as a fellow believer in your runofthemill sciencist speculations. I don't share them. In fact, the great majority of humans alive today don't share them. You cannot prove them. You merely believe them. You foolishly are imposing them on this text and on the thinking of a man whose ability to think originally is so far beyond yours that it is a joke that you deem to pass judgment on the conclusions he reached regarding the events of his life.

“And, your cynical modern worldview defines, merely as a matter of your own modernist faith, what is and what is not possible. I'm not a modernist.”

Wrong. My view of what is possible is based on our knowledge and understanding of the known physical laws of the universe and the rules of logic.


What Juergen has pointed out is that what you call our "knowledge and understanding of the known physical laws of the universe and the rules of logic" is yours, not mine and not that of most people alive today. It is unjustifiable. It is your belief. You can't demonstrate its validity. But, you do insist upon foisting it on anyone and everyone who has existed in every time and place.

However, I believe, for instance, based on these laws, that it would be impossible for me to physically jump from my back deck, all the way to the moon, spend a day there collecting rock specimens, and then jump all the way back to the earth with my collection. According to your world-view…would you say it is possible for me to do that?

You have spoken well, grasshopper. This is what you BELIEVE.

There have been times, isle, that I have wished that you would jump--preferably head first--from your back deck. winking smiley

For an historian to attempt to interpret past events based on presuppositions of the reality of magic, the occult, the supernatural, which rely on a mode of rationality or way of thinking that looks to invisible forces beyond the natural world to influence events and/or effect change in material conditions that would otherwise be considered impossible...well...I think most will agree that would be an example of a bad presupposition for an historian to bring into his or her interpretations.

isle, for a historian to observe the behavior of people of the past while wielding the unjustifiable presumptions of modernist sciencism is every bit as much folly as to assume that voodoo explains everything.

The fact is that Paul said what he said. He was referring to actual events and giving his interpretation of them and all you can do is pass judgment on him based on what you believe as a man satisfied to be confined to your time and place in early 21st century Western culture with all of its folly and foibles. Very, very pedestrian.

In my opinion, you’d do poorly as an historian simply because you are too powerfully influenced by your supernatural religious presuppositions, since, 'if' what you're trying to convince others to accept as an acceptable historical event...that a person dead for three days came back to life...didn’t happen…then, like Paul, all your religious beliefs fall apart. That’s too powerful for you to ignore.

Fascinating.

You accuse me of doing with my worldview exactly what you did with yours.

All I have done is assert that there is textual evidence for signs, wonders and miracles from an early Christian source that is highly regarded by scholars as being authentic. I didn't attempt to define the terms signs, wonders or miracles. I simply made the case for the fact that they existed. I didn't argue that they must be understood through the lens of my religious beliefs.

I did none of that.

You did ALL of it.

What we make of the fact that there is strong evidence for these events interpreted by Paul and the Corinthians as signs, wonders and miracles would have been appropriate for further discussion. There are virtually limitless ways to understand what they might signify.

You have not only dealt with the issue of their existence but have haughtily declared that Paul was an ancient, superstitious fool who would benefit from knowing about the discipline of psychology and that you know better than this guy whose though still expands the minds of people more brilliant that you could hope of being.

Good for you. You are to these issues what Nathan Bedford Forest was to the issue of race relations in the south.

You are better informed than Paul. You can glibly tell him what it meant for him to be him.

You're not as smart as you think you are.
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
December 30, 2009 01:45AM
Quite an hysterical tirade there, pb. LOL!

Your above post is an excellent demonstration of, "What I said" thumbs up

"Unfortunately, your lack of confidence is going to continue to make such a conversation impossible for you. You've got to 'somehow' drop the posturing that the balance of your post displayed so well. When you are confident enough to realize that you don't need to hide behind posturing, sophistry, and obfuscation, I think you'll realize that what can be gained from straightforward and honest discussion, far outweighs the imaginary fears you seem to harbor with regard to engaging in such a conversation." smoking smiley
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
December 30, 2009 02:16AM
Obfuscation??? pb??? Heavens forefend!

Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
December 30, 2009 02:23AM
Once one makes the kind of observation you have made, then one has to set aside his own presumptions about truth and allow the person in that time and place to be a person in that time and place. You are a modernist with a cynical, rather closed-minded, view of the universe. You have to deal with that and your unfounded assumption that the early members of the Christian movement had to have been wrong about how they understood their existence because you know better.-pb

like many believed during in the 1st century paul probably also believed that the earth was flat. does this mean that you believe the earth really was flat in the 1st century just because paul sincerly believed that it was flat?

paul probably also beleived that the earth was the center of the solar system. does this mean that because paul and most everyone else in that era sincerely held this belief that you believe the earth really was actually the center of the solar system in the 1st century?

or do you beleive that paul was just honestly mistaken about those things because paul does not know what we know today?

just because something is written in the bible doesnt mean that it is true. yes paul may have actually and sincerly believed that jesus was physically resurrected from the dead. however this no more means mean that jesus was actually physically resurrected from the dead than pauls other sincerely held but erroneous beliefs mean that they are true.

its alright to acknowledge the fact that we know more about the way the world works today than people in the 1st century did and probably not as much as people 2,000 years in the future will.

its perfectly understandable that paul and other 1st century men would beleive that jesus was actually resurrected from the dead and that the earth was the center of the solar system. its not nearly as understandable that someone today would believe that paul was correct about those things just because paul sincerly believed them.
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
December 30, 2009 02:34AM
Not to mention things like mental disorders, which we know an awful lot about today but back in those days were chalked up to demon possession. I doubt you could have convinced people back then otherwise.

Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
December 30, 2009 02:39AM
i just posted on this in kairos epilepsy thread. since for jeurgen and pb sincere belief equals truth, you are correct.

i wonder how they square the fact that some people sincerely believe things that are in direct contradiction to the sincerly held beliefs of other people?

if i sincerely beleive that the earth is not round and you sincerely believe that it is round then one of us must be wrong. see what i mean.
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
December 30, 2009 02:44AM
pb, have you or anyone actually listed these miracles that you're talking about Paul doing? I mean, are we talking about specific, well known miracles that he performed and were then documented by corroborating witnesses or are we talking about whatever he was referring to when he essentially said in his letters, "Remember all those miracles I did for y'all?".

Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
December 30, 2009 03:09AM
I think Paul's standards for what constitutes a miracle were pretty low, since they included speaking in tongues, which is essentially babbling like an idiot.
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
December 30, 2009 03:26AM
Pondy, I'll bet Paul's miracles weren't as good as Saint Anthony of Padua's miracles! How about this one!

"A young man, Leonardo by name, in a fit of anger kicked his own mother. Repentant, he confessed his fault to St. Anthony who said to him: "The foot of him who kicks his mother deserves to be cut off." Leonardo ran home and cut off his foot. Learning of this, St. Anthony took the amputated member of the unfortunate youth and miraculously rejoined it."---Catholic Encyclopedia

I know pb and Juergeon will be excited when they read this! winking smiley
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
December 30, 2009 05:21AM
pb, have you or anyone actually listed these miracles that you're talking about Paul doing?

Here you go Pondy


Acts 13:6-12
Paul makes a false prophet called Bar Jesus go blind. (way da go Paulie)

Acts 14:8-20
Paul makes a crippled man walk (how original)

Acts 16:16-19
Paul uses his magic powers to escape from jail. (Pretty cool)

Acts 19:11-17
People use the actual garments wore by Paul to exorcise demons (ho-hum)

Acts 20:9-12
Paul brings a dead man back to life again. (double ho-hum)

Acts 28: 2-8
Paul gets bitten by a poisonous snake but doesn’t suffer any effects.

That’s about it really, nothing special.

You want some crazy miracles read the Gnostic gospels. The gospel of Thomas has some beauties attributed to jesus. As a child Jesus brings clay bird to life, he also kills a kid for bumping into him.
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
December 30, 2009 05:40AM
No! Seriously? Are these the miracles we're talking about? Is that it?

pb, help us out here...

Anonymous User
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
December 30, 2009 05:43AM
pb Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Amen, J..
>
> But, their identity is wrapped up in the myth that
> they are people of reason. They are deluded in
> that but it would take more courage than they have
> ever displayed here to make that admission.

Looks like I'm going to have to agree. I guess the realisation that you built your house on sand is a pretty scary one.
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
December 30, 2009 06:25AM
There's are a few others not even worthy of mentioning for example Acts 19:11 mentions that God was performing extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul but has no specifics and there's Paul being saved by God from a shipwreck in Acts 27. A couple of visions in Acts 22:17; 2 Corinthians 12, but seriously Pondy that's about it.
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