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Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!

Posted by PalinIsTheTruth 
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
December 26, 2009 03:43AM
Bible miracles are no more history than Creationism is science. Scholars see these tales for what they are, fantasy/propaganda.

Looking at my 11 year old nephew's 5th grade social studies text today, I found that it contains a far more complete history of world culture than pb has with his supposed "PhD."



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/26/2009 04:05AM by linc.
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
December 26, 2009 04:08PM
"Shouldn't there be some non-Christian affiliated person(s) within the panel for balance and who can throw questions like the ones Islander (or Henry would) have posed to you?"---jun

I don't need to tell you that you've basically hit the nail on the head. Much of history will be, and always has been, dependent on the presuppositions of the interpreter. The degree to which an interpretation has value will depend on whether the presuppositions are good or bad.

For most of us, we work with the presupposition, based on our real life experience and our understanding of the laws of biology, that if a person is truly dead, then this person cannot and will not come back to life. We have such confidence in this that we cremate the dead bodies, or embalm them, seal them in a coffin, and bury them in the ground.

When interpreting an historical event where we are certain that a military person, for instance, died on a specific date, we can discount a report that the dead person came back to life and ordered an attack on a village.

However, this would not necessarily be the case if the interpretor presupposed some sort of supernatural intervention.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/26/2009 04:12PM by islander.
Anonymous User
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
December 26, 2009 05:35PM
Not true, Isle. Just like a theist would be a bad scientist for trying to include the supernatural in his description of nature, an atheist would be a bad historian for trying to write out the supernatural in his description of history. When it comes to disciplines like history and science, you have to leave your philosophical presuppositions aside. Even if that means admiting that all the data shows that Jesus actually did rise from the dead.
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
December 26, 2009 06:03PM
Juergen, that a dead person cannot come back to life is no more a philosophical presupposition than that water freezes at 32 F.

As I said, we know, based on real life experience and our understanding of biology, why dead people can't come back to life. We know, for instance, what happens to the cells in the brain etc when they are deprived of oxygen for three days. If your presupposition is that those scientific facts are simply philosophical presuppositions, then your interpretation of history will be unreliable based on your bad presuppositions.
Anonymous User
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
December 26, 2009 06:53PM
Isle, the historical evidence suggests that at least one man came back from the dead. History doesn't care that it was almost definately a supernatural event.

And, Isle, the fact that you're not able to put your presupositions aside to apply the historical method for a moment doesn't make you much better than the creationists and IDers who can't put aside theirs when applying the scientific method. I've always struggled to understand how people like you can be so judgemental of them given this fact. They may be being unscientific, but you're being unhistorical, which is just as bad.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/26/2009 06:56PM by Juergen.
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
December 26, 2009 09:00PM
"Isle, the historical evidence suggests that at least one man came back from the dead." -Juerg

...One need only have the religious faith required to believe it.

Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
December 26, 2009 09:35PM
And, Isle, the fact that you're not able to put your presupositions aside to apply the historical method for a moment doesn't make you much better than the creationists and IDers who can't put aside theirs when applying the scientific method.---Juerg

Juerg, you're contradicting yourself. In one breath you say, "When it comes to disciplines like history and science, you have to leave your philosophical presuppositions aside." And I agree with you. But then you feel justified in appealing to your philosophical/theological presuppositions in order to justify your claims which contradict what we know based on real life experience and our understanding of biology.

The historian's goal is the same as that of the forensic scientist who is trying to recreate a past event in order to arrive at the truth. We, at least most of us, most certainly would NOT want the forensic scientist to appeal to his philosophical/theological presuppositions so that he could give supernatural explanations in order to justify his findings.

Belief in the Resurrection requires faith in the supernatural (a philosophical concept), ya don't get to have the support and security that comes from believing that which can be demonstrated empirically, as Bultmann says, "faith in the resurrection is really the same thing as faith in the saving efficacy of the cross".
Jun
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
December 26, 2009 09:36PM
To add to what Islander have just said:

Even if the news report "now" that a group of people from a certain cult have witnesses their cult-leader have risen from the dead and subsequently floated up into outer space and disappeared, AND his body is no where to be found, AND the witnessing followers would rather be sent to a mental institution than renounce their claims; that is still not good enough a reason to believe in such claims. In the contrary, if the claim is about a mould stain that looks like a silhouette of their cult-leader, then naturally it isn't so hard to give them a benefit of a doubt.

To support an unlikely supernatural event, one must have extraordinary prove to support it. A person claiming to have psychic powers and have successfully demonstrated his/her abilities in front of an audience still would have to be put under designed controlled tests and scrutiny before they can truly be accepted as psychics. None have passed so far.

Juergen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Isle, the historical evidence suggests that at
> least one man came back from the dead. History
> doesn't care that it was almost definately a
> supernatural event.

The quality of the evidence presented so far does not justify a rational believe of the incredible claim of Jesus' resurrection. It is doubtful that mainstream historians, who are not affiliated with Christianity have accepted the event of the resurrection of Jesus as an historical fact. There perhaps indeed was evidence that "many(?)"people "believed" they saw Jesus resurrection (i.e. the existence of many first-hand witnesses); even so, there still need to be evidence which establish beyond-the-doubt that the highly-unlikely claim of the resurrection was actually real.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Juni {^á´¥^}


"Don't judge other people just because they sin differently from you!" ~ Anon

Three things you (probably) don't know about Islam
[www.youtube.com]

Welcome To Belgistan -- The New Muslim Capital Of Europe
[www.youtube.com]

Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
December 26, 2009 10:23PM
I think we can say that the most that can be said to be verified with regard to the Resurrection, and called historical fact, is that some people at that time believed that Jesus rose from the dead. I doubt many historians, Christian or non-Christian would doubt that there were, indeed, some people who actually did believe Jesus rose from the dead.
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
December 26, 2009 11:12PM
It is doubtful that mainstream historians, who are not affiliated with Christianity have accepted the event of the resurrection of Jesus as an historical fact.-jun

its not really doubtful jun - they dont accept it.

moreover even some christian historians dont accept it.

There perhaps indeed was evidence that "many(?)"people "believed" they saw Jesus resurrection (i.e. the existence of many first-hand witnesses); even so, there still need to be evidence which establish beyond-the-doubt that the highly-unlikely claim of the resurrection was actually real.-jun

no evidence that ive heard about. as far as is known only 2 or 3 people at best claim to be eyewitnesses to jesus resurrection.
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
December 27, 2009 12:56AM
More people claim to be witnesses to Joseph Smith's "Golden Tablets" than to the Resurrection-- and more recently, and we even know their names from signed affadavits. In fact more people claim to have seen Elvis alive after death than Jesus, and these are real "eyewitnesses" who are still alive to tell the tale-- if they aren't lying or delusional.

But since no one has ever come back from the dead but many people have told outlandish stories, which is the more likely explanation?
Anonymous User
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
December 27, 2009 03:41AM
islander Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Juerg, you're contradicting yourself. In one
> breath you say, "When it comes to disciplines like
> history and science, you have to leave your
> philosophical presuppositions aside." And I agree
> with you. But then you feel justified in appealing
> to your philosophical/theological presuppositions
> in order to justify your claims which contradict
> what we know based on real life experience and our
> understanding of biology.

Not at all. Both my personal experience and the historical evidence re the ressurection suggest that miracles happen. But, my presupposition that miracles can occasionally happen doesn't come into it, I'm just looking at the data. You OTOH are trying to censor data because of your presupposition that nothing supernatural can happen, which is very unhistorical. It's like climategate except worse, because people's souls are at stake here. You're being unhistorical, Isle; I don't know what else to say.
Jun
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
December 27, 2009 08:02AM
I doubt Islander has asserted that "nothing supernatural can happen", but simply that it require a lot more substantial evidence than what which have been provided/available so far. Witnesses accounts alone is not sufficient to establish the existence of UFOs, of Elvis' resurrection, of Joseph Smith, and etc even if they are willing to undergo immense suffering to support their "probably delusional" believes.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Juni {^á´¥^}


"Don't judge other people just because they sin differently from you!" ~ Anon

Three things you (probably) don't know about Islam
[www.youtube.com]

Welcome To Belgistan -- The New Muslim Capital Of Europe
[www.youtube.com]

Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
December 27, 2009 08:16AM
Quote

You OTOH are trying to censor data because of your presupposition that nothing supernatural can happen, which is very unhistorical.

You are impossible to take seriously. Extraordinary claims require extraordinarily strong evidence. And ancient stories are not enough.

What "miracles" have you personally witnessed, Jeurgen?

Don't you ever wonder why the general public distrusts the judgment of religious types? Did it ever occur to you that it is because you are so willing to lie to yourselves?
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
December 27, 2009 06:13PM
UFOs are a good example, Jun. Even if a huge group of people witness the same unexplained event doesn't mean that it's "evidence" of an extraterrestrial visitation by aliens. Many, even all of those people may choose to believe that it was aliens, but their interpretation of the event in no way negates any other more likely yet undetermined possibilities.

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