islander Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "Actually, there is, as far as I know, only
> tradition on how he died."---pb
>
> Very good, pb! That was a nice, straightforward,
> and correct answer! You get a star for that! *
>
>
> You were able to answer one third of the question
> of when, where, and how. You got the 'how' part
> right, do you want to take a stab at the other two
> parts, like where did he die (in Rome?) and when
> did he die?
>
> Since you're basing so much of the defense for
> your supernatural beliefs on Paul, and what he is
> purported to have said and believed, it's
> important that we establish what we can actually
> say we know, verses what we can only speculate
> about and/or what we would like to believe.
isle,
About a half dozen years ago, it occurred to me that there is another way to read the Bible than the way it is normally read by believers and seekers of truth. It occurred to me that it can be read as a collection of ancient documents put together by a religious institution for reasons that serve its own ends, for sure. But, that the Bible is actually a remarkable book for a person who is interested in history. The Bible actually provides us with a remarkable set of ancient documents which have been preserved and studied and presented to us from ancient MSS by many of the world's best scholars over many centuries and at incredible expense. Amazingly, you can go to Borders outlet or other discount book store and purchase this amazing collection of ancient works sometimes for less than a dollar.
So, these days I spend a lot of time reading and studying those ancient document and I probably divide the time about 50/50 between reading faith documents and ancient documents of historical import. When the Bible is read as a collection of ancient documents, the letters of Paul become the most valuable in understanding the early history of the Christian movement. They are, as I've said many times, regarded by almost all scholars to be the authentic work of an early Christian leader. The text of these letter has been carefully maintained. And, they are letters which are among the most important historical documents. They present a person in unguarded conversation with other individuals. They are personal and honest. In the Old Testament, the writings of the prophets become the most valuable documents. They are, in some cases, primary sources or the record of disciples of a prophet who would have preserved the words of the prophets with the greatest care and devotion.
I've been at this for years.
If you want to join me in a conversation of the letters of Paul as a collection of ancient early Christian documents, I'd be overjoyed to do that with you. I am, at heart, a historian. I am trained as a historian and I have skills which I have honed over the years that allow me to handle texts with a fair amount of precision. And, I must admit, that I'm not always as patient with people not as accustomed as I am in dealing with ancient sources.
One of the skills I've learned in my years of training by highly skilled students of history is to set aside bias when dealing with a text. And, while I'm certain that I don't achieve perfect objectivity with the ancient MSS of Paul, I achieve it fairly well. And, I suspect, better than you will.
So, anyway...
...if you want to engage in this sort of conversation, I'll welcome the privilege of doing so. But, promise me that you are serious.