Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!

pb Wrote:
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> Jun Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> [en.wikipedia.org]
> >
> > And Buddhism was "invented" before
> "Christianity".
> > Too bad a plot where "people being killed for
> > their refusal to renounce witnessing these
> > miracles" wasn't included as part of the story
> > records within these ancient tales accounts
> > THEMSELVES, otherwise it'll certainly be a
> > whole lot more convincing.
>
> Wade,
>
> For a person of science you have a very tightly
> closed mind when it comes to data that challenges
> your theory.

Regardless of whether if the Suttas contained a story of people having suffered for their refusal to renounce their believe in Buddha or not, it is still irrational to believe that the claims that Buddha walked on water, split water to create a passage for himself (when he doesn't feel like walking on it), and countless more as most probably factual. Do you close-mindedly agree too that those claims of Buddha are more likely to be false rumours which somehow got spread by word-of-mouth and eventually incorporated into the records -- that they are probably nothing more than superstitious myths by people who do not know better at that time?

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- Juni {^á´¥^}


"Don't judge other people just because they sin differently from you!" ~ Anon

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Ponderer Wrote:
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> pb, I wouldn't die for a lie or trick. So what?
> That's irrelevant because I'm not saying that's
> what Paul did. He would die for his religion, his
> belief.

Pb, you are not making sense. What you yourself perceive as a lie, might not be so to others. To them it is very real, and thus they live "subjectively" with accord to that believe, regardless of whether if it has anything to do with reality or not.

Muslims die for their believe.
People of the heaven-gate cult died for their believe in a better afterlife.
People of certain religions willingly go through ritualistic torture for their own irrational faith.
Countless people were willing to risk their lives for a ring, even though that is a ring of great evil.
Likewise, it is not surprising that people of past would be willing to die for the superstitious "hope" which their believe in Jesus have brought them.


She believed that the LHC will literally lead to the destruction of mankind.
[www.expressindia.com]

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- Juni {^á´¥^}


"Don't judge other people just because they sin differently from you!" ~ Anon

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Indy, I would concede that it does constitute some form of evidence in that I could see pb's side presenting it as "evidence" in a trial. "Strong" evidence? I don't think so personally.-ponderer

its only evidence if anything alleged to be evidence counts as evidence. its not evidence if evidence is something which is indicative of something elses is true. no judge in the country would allow this sort of 'evidence' into a trial.

pb made a ridiculous analogy between two people discussing a third person's resurrection with two people discussing a third person's unibrow as if those two phenomena, a resurrection and a unibrow, were similar in terms of credibility - and nobody called him on it!

pb who is NOT a professional historian has no clue about what does and does not count as evidence for a historical event. supernatural events are nonstarters from the gitgo. every professional historian knows this.

"Actually, there is, as far as I know, only tradition on how he[Paul] died."---pb

Very good, pb! That was a nice, straightforward, and correct answer! You get a star for that! *

You were able to answer one third of the question of when, where, and how. You got the 'how' part right, do you want to take a stab at the other two parts, like where did he die (in Rome?) and when did he die?

Since you're basing so much of the defense for your supernatural beliefs on Paul, and what he is purported to have said and believed, it's important that we establish what we can actually say we know, verses what we can only speculate about and/or what we would like to believe.

"there is no hearsay in these miracles. That's the point. These are not the miracles of Jesus passed on second or third hand. This is a conversation in whihch Paul is discussing shared experiences in which he, the sender of the letters and the recipients can both recall. That's what make these few passages particularly meaningful historically."---pb

Can you give us an actual example of what you are claiming? This way, we can examine it and we'll be able to more clearly see if and how it helps (or hinders) your case.

isle,

I listed three appearances of the word miracle/s in Paul undisputed letters.

islander Wrote:
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> "Actually, there is, as far as I know, only
> tradition on how he died."---pb
>
> Very good, pb! That was a nice, straightforward,
> and correct answer! You get a star for that! *
>
>
> You were able to answer one third of the question
> of when, where, and how. You got the 'how' part
> right, do you want to take a stab at the other two
> parts, like where did he die (in Rome?) and when
> did he die?
>
> Since you're basing so much of the defense for
> your supernatural beliefs on Paul, and what he is
> purported to have said and believed, it's
> important that we establish what we can actually
> say we know, verses what we can only speculate
> about and/or what we would like to believe.

isle,

About a half dozen years ago, it occurred to me that there is another way to read the Bible than the way it is normally read by believers and seekers of truth. It occurred to me that it can be read as a collection of ancient documents put together by a religious institution for reasons that serve its own ends, for sure. But, that the Bible is actually a remarkable book for a person who is interested in history. The Bible actually provides us with a remarkable set of ancient documents which have been preserved and studied and presented to us from ancient MSS by many of the world's best scholars over many centuries and at incredible expense. Amazingly, you can go to Borders outlet or other discount book store and purchase this amazing collection of ancient works sometimes for less than a dollar.

So, these days I spend a lot of time reading and studying those ancient document and I probably divide the time about 50/50 between reading faith documents and ancient documents of historical import. When the Bible is read as a collection of ancient documents, the letters of Paul become the most valuable in understanding the early history of the Christian movement. They are, as I've said many times, regarded by almost all scholars to be the authentic work of an early Christian leader. The text of these letter has been carefully maintained. And, they are letters which are among the most important historical documents. They present a person in unguarded conversation with other individuals. They are personal and honest. In the Old Testament, the writings of the prophets become the most valuable documents. They are, in some cases, primary sources or the record of disciples of a prophet who would have preserved the words of the prophets with the greatest care and devotion.

I've been at this for years.

If you want to join me in a conversation of the letters of Paul as a collection of ancient early Christian documents, I'd be overjoyed to do that with you. I am, at heart, a historian. I am trained as a historian and I have skills which I have honed over the years that allow me to handle texts with a fair amount of precision. And, I must admit, that I'm not always as patient with people not as accustomed as I am in dealing with ancient sources.

One of the skills I've learned in my years of training by highly skilled students of history is to set aside bias when dealing with a text. And, while I'm certain that I don't achieve perfect objectivity with the ancient MSS of Paul, I achieve it fairly well. And, I suspect, better than you will.

So, anyway...

...if you want to engage in this sort of conversation, I'll welcome the privilege of doing so. But, promise me that you are serious.

"If you want to join me in a conversation of the letters of Paul as a collection of ancient early Christian documents, I'd be overjoyed to do that with you"---pb

Unfortunately, your lack of confidence is going to continue to make such a conversation impossible for you. You've got to 'somehow' drop the posturing that the balance of your post displayed so well. When you are confident enough to realize that you don't need to hide behind posturing, sophistry, and obfuscation, I think you'll realize that what can be gained from straightforward and honest discussion, far outweighs the imaginary fears you seem to harbor with regard to engaging in such a conversation.

"[N]o judge in the country would allow this sort of 'evidence' into a trial." -indy

I didn't mean to insinuate that any judge would. I merely meant that pb's side would seek to use it as such.

islander Wrote:
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> "If you want to join me in a conversation of the
> letters of Paul as a collection of ancient early
> Christian documents, I'd be overjoyed to do that
> with you"---pb
>
> Unfortunately, your lack of confidence is going to
> continue to make such a conversation impossible
> for you. You've got to 'somehow' drop the
> posturing that the balance of your post displayed
> so well. When you are confident enough to realize
> that you don't need to hide behind posturing,
> sophistry, and obfuscation, I think you'll realize
> that what can be gained from straightforward and
> honest discussion, far outweighs the imaginary
> fears you seem to harbor with regard to engaging
> in such a conversation.

isle,

I offered an open invitation to you.

That you'd bring up the issue of self-confidence is nigh unto fascinating. My confidence level in these matter is so high that I once defended my dissertation in front of the Secretary of the American Society of Church, the curator of the United Methodist Archives and the Editor in Chief of Methodist History Journal. I love history. I couldn't be more confident that I can hold my own in this sort of discussion, so, please, don't worry about my lack of self-confidence. I'm perfectly fine.

Oh...

...you weren't really concerned about MY confidence were you? You were projecting again.

Well, too bad.

I think it might have been fun.

pb Wrote:
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> That you'd bring up the issue of self-confidence
> is nigh unto fascinating. My confidence level in
> these matter is so high that I once defended my
> dissertation in front of the Secretary of the
> American Society of Church, the curator of the
> United Methodist Archives and the Editor in Chief
> of Methodist History Journal.

hmm...But they were all affiliated to Christian Organizations...!!!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Juni {^á´¥^}


"Don't judge other people just because they sin differently from you!" ~ Anon

Three things you (probably) don't know about Islam
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Welcome To Belgistan -- The New Muslim Capital Of Europe
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"I couldn't be more confident that I can hold my own in this sort of discussion, so, please, don't worry about my lack of self-confidence. I'm perfectly fine."---pb

Good. Let's see how you do.

"there is no hearsay in these miracles. That's the point. These are not the miracles of Jesus passed on second or third hand. This is a conversation in whihch Paul is discussing shared experiences in which he, the sender of the letters and the recipients can both recall. That's what make these few passages particularly meaningful historically."---pb

Can you give us an actual example of what you are claiming, chapter and verse? This way, we can examine it and we'll be able to more clearly see if and how it helps (or hinders) your case.

isle,

I had a surprisingly cogent and concise response all put together and my beloved accidently erased it before I could post it. Back to square one.

Have a merry Christmas.

Will be looking forward to it.

Today will be a busy one here at our household!

"Merry Christmas"

Jun Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> pb Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > That you'd bring up the issue of
> self-confidence
> > is nigh unto fascinating. My confidence level
> in
> > these matter is so high that I once defended my
> > dissertation in front of the Secretary of the
> > American Society of Church, the curator of the
> > United Methodist Archives and the Editor in
> Chief
> > of Methodist History Journal.
>
> hmm...But they were all affiliated to Christian
> Organizations...!!!


Shouldn't there be some non-Christian affiliated person(s) within the panel for balance and who can throw questions like the ones Islander (or Henry would) have posed to you?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Juni {^á´¥^}


"Don't judge other people just because they sin differently from you!" ~ Anon

Three things you (probably) don't know about Islam
[www.youtube.com]

Welcome To Belgistan -- The New Muslim Capital Of Europe
[www.youtube.com]