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Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!

Posted by PalinIsTheTruth 
pb
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
December 23, 2009 04:44PM
Ponderer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "Thomas Paine was an insane deist." -pb
>
> Wow. Calling someone insane just because they
> disagree with you and your beliefs. That's pretty
> weak there, pb. How dare you seek to deny him his
> freedom of speech just because he had different
> ideas than you. Why do you hate freedom of speech
> so much?

Another nice try, there, pond.

What I've written was the belief of most American Revolutionaries. Paine went off the deep end. He was a radical so radical that he ended up in France. Do you recall his mention in the discussion of the writing of the Declaration of Independence? Or was that written by Jefferson with some input from Franklin? What role did Paine have in the writing of the Consititution? The Bill of Rights?

He was a whacko, even in a day of political extremism. Even Jefferson who rewrote the New Testament, didn't buy the stuff that Paine was selling.
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
December 23, 2009 04:53PM
And you can believe that anyone with strong religious convictions will always report the exact, unbiased truth in regards to that religion. You can believe that tricks that seem convincing must be miracles if they are reported as such. You can believe anything you want to. No one can stop you either.

Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
December 23, 2009 05:10PM
"One thing that has interested me over the years of my life since I became a follower of Jesus is how many people with science degrees believe things that I personally still doubt. They believe in the miracles. They reject evolution. All sorts of fascinating things."---pb

That's because of where you live, the western NY and PA area, I think it might be something in the air or underground. You don't happen to have any magic stones do ya? Joseph Smith found some up your way and if he put them into a hat, and looked into the hat, he could translate the reformed Egyptian hieroglyphics on some Golden plates he'd found (with the help of an angel). thumbs up Your area has an interesting "history"! winking smiley
pb
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
December 23, 2009 05:14PM
Ponderer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And you can believe that anyone with strong
> religious convictions will always report the
> exact, unbiased truth in regards to that religion.
> You can believe that tricks that seem convincing
> must be miracles if they are reported as such. You
> can believe anything you want to. No one can stop
> you either.

What makes this evidence so powerful is that there's no reporting being done.

These are letters in which past events experienced by the writer and recipients are mentioned. This is the equivalent of you emailing to pt, "That tuna we ate at Long John Silver's last week gave me indigestion."

If I got a copy of that email, I'd have good reason to believe that pt and you ate at Long John's last week. Your note assumed knowledge an event you shared. You and pt obviously share some strong beliefs but the fact that you both ate tuna has nothing to do with them.

That's the kind of evidence we have for early church miracles. It's not the same kind of evidence we have for the miracles of Jesus. We have accounts that are mythical in nature and are second or third hand at best to support the miracles of Jesus. The evidence in Paul's letters for early church miracles is of an entirely different quality.

Now, again, you can turn off your mind in the face of this very strong evidence. Or, you can consider it for what it is. But, you can't alter the reality that the evidence is very strong. Ignore if you need to because you lack courage or for some other reason. But, don't imagine that your ostrich routine is going to change any truth.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/23/2009 05:34PM by pb.
pb
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
December 23, 2009 05:22PM
That's because of where you live, the western NY and PA area...

I live about 60 miles from Philadelphia in a county with 500,000 people. Where do you come up with this stuff?
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
December 23, 2009 05:32PM
"Where do you come up with this stuff?"---pb

This is all historical stuff. I'm surprised you're so unfamiliar with it, especially living where you do.
pb
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
December 23, 2009 05:55PM
islander Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "Where do you come up with this stuff?"---pb
>
> This is all historical stuff. I'm surprised you're
> so unfamiliar with it, especially living where you
> do.

Jospeh Smith got his start 60 miles from Philadelphia?

Go to the store and get your money back on those history books, there, Barry.
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
December 23, 2009 06:42PM
"Jospeh Smith got his start 60 miles from Philadelphia?"---pb

Nope! That you'd imagine such a thing is an example of what I was talking about when I said, I'm surprised you're so unfamiliar with it [the history of the area up your way]", that'd be like me, living where I do, and knowing nothing about the history of the religious sects of the "snake handlers" we have down this way!

So, tell me, would ya like to learn a little bit about Joseph Smith, and some of the miraculous stuff that's taken place up your way? We could see how it stacks up (historically) to some of the other miracles, maybe even to the best ones like the miracles of Fatima!? smiling bouncing smiley
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
December 23, 2009 07:05PM
Of course you would have good reason to believe PTTP and I ate at Long John Silver's if you read that email. There is nothing physically impossible about us doing that and it's in no way out of the ordinary.

But if I emailed PTTP about how someone walked into my office, waved his hand over an empty table and made lunch from Long John Silver's for the entire shop appear miraculously out of thin air, you would likewise have good reason to believe it happened? That would be "powerful evidence" to you that it actually happened?





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/23/2009 07:27PM by Ponderer.
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
December 23, 2009 08:10PM
That's the kind of evidence we have for early church miracles. It's not the same kind of evidence we have for the miracles of Jesus. We have accounts that are mythical in nature and are second or third hand at best to support the miracles of Jesus. The evidence in Paul's letters for early church miracles is of an entirely different quality. Now, again, you can turn off your mind in the face of this very strong evidence. - pb

The Mormon church has some "strong evidence" to support their beliefs, too. As does every religion.

The problem is, it's all rather hard to believe and hearsay to boot, regardless of what religion we're discussing.
Jun
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
December 23, 2009 08:20PM
[en.wikipedia.org]

And Buddhism was "invented" before "Christianity". Too bad a plot where "people being killed for their refusal to renounce witnessing these miracles" wasn't included as part of the story records within these ancient tales accounts THEMSELVES, otherwise it'll certainly eye rolling smiley be a whole lot more convincing. winking smiley

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pb
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
December 23, 2009 11:21PM
Ponderer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Of course you would have good reason to believe
> PTTP and I ate at Long John Silver's if you read
> that email. There is nothing physically impossible
> about us doing that and it's in no way out of the
> ordinary.
>
> But if I emailed PTTP about how someone walked
> into my office, waved his hand over an empty table
> and made lunch from Long John Silver's for the
> entire shop appear miraculously out of thin air,
> you would likewise have good reason to believe it
> happened? That would be "powerful evidence" to you
> that it actually happened?

You're missing the point, pond. and I'm sure you're not this, well, mentally deficient.

Paul is not reporting miracles--as is the case in your example. He is conversing with people about miracles that they all witnessed together and explaining other things based on their shared experience. In your example it would be you emailing pt saying, "Remember last week, hun, when you stopped by my office just as Marv was making lunch for everyone form LJS's menu, and right out of thing air."

And, the powerful evidence at hand in this thread is not the miracles being powerful. It is the manner in which miracles are mentioned in the text. If we were talking about Paul having a unibrow, the way this is mentioned in the text would be powerful historical evidence that Paul had a unibrow.
pb
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
December 23, 2009 11:27PM
The Mormon church has some "strong evidence" to support their beliefs, too. As does every religion.

Such as? I recall a few years ago that one of their archaeologists left the church because there was no evidence to support the Book of Mormon.

"The problem is, it's all rather hard to believe and hearsay to boot, regardless of what religion we're discussing."

As I was just telling your, er, wife, there is no hearsay in these miracles. That's the point. These are not the miracles of Jesus passed on second or third hand. This is a conversation in whihch Paul is discussing shared experiences in which he, the sender of the letters and the recipients can both recall.

That's what make these few passages particularly meaningful historically.

And, you can dream away their historical value but you can't take away that value.
pb
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
December 23, 2009 11:29PM
Jun Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> [en.wikipedia.org]
> uddha
>
> And Buddhism was "invented" before "Christianity".
> Too bad a plot where "people being killed for
> their refusal to renounce witnessing these
> miracles" wasn't included as part of the story
> records within these ancient tales accounts
> THEMSELVES, otherwise it'll certainly eye rolling smiley be a
> whole lot more convincing. winking smiley

Wade,

For a person of science you have a very tightly closed mind when it comes to data that challenges your theory.
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
December 23, 2009 11:36PM
"Remember last week, hun, when you stopped by my office just as Marv was making lunch for everyone form LJS's menu, and right out of thing air."

You are splitting hairs here, pb. Even if I said that in the email it still wouldn't constitute evidence that Marv was a miracle man. Even if everyone who thought they were witnessing a miracle was convinced it was a miracle, it wouldn't constitute proof that it was in fact a miracle.

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