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Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!

Posted by PalinIsTheTruth 
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
January 20, 2010 02:31AM
pb writes,

Quote
For the gazillionth time, linc. "Subjectivity is truth."

Translation: "Ignorance is strength."
-George Orwell
pb
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
January 20, 2010 02:39AM
linc Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> pb writes,
>
>
>
> Translation: "Ignorance is strength."
> -George Orwell

Don't ever take a philosophy course, there, linc.
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
January 20, 2010 04:02AM
Pb's idea of philosophy:


`When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty
said in rather a scornful tone, `it means
just what I choose it to mean --
neither more nor less.'
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
January 20, 2010 04:32AM
The bottom line, indy, is that you have created a strawman out of my beliefs and that your a priori rejection of the supernatural without seriously evaluating evidence for it is makes you a believer in what you believe in just like I'm a believer in what I believe in.-pb

i havent made a strawman of ur beliefs. ive only criticized the way in which u arrived at a few of ur beliefs.

u seem to beleive that u and i see the world in 2 totally different & incompatible ways but i dont believe we do. actually we see the world similarly for similar reasons. we both beleive that the earth is round that abraham lincoln is dead that there actually exists a country called france that barak obama is the current president of the us that the earth orbits the sun etc. we both came to believe these things for similar reasons & by using similar reasoning processes.

its mostly only the core beliefs of your religion that we disagree about and i think its because u did not arrive at those beliefs by using the same reasoning process that u used to come to the above beleifs. u made an arbitrary exception for them in ur reasoning process by labeling them supernatural as if that would exempt them from the need for evidence.
pb
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
January 20, 2010 04:21PM
indy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The bottom line, indy, is that you have created a
> strawman out of my beliefs and that your a priori
> rejection of the supernatural without seriously
> evaluating evidence for it is makes you a believer
> in what you believe in just like I'm a believer in
> what I believe in.-pb
>
> i havent made a strawman of ur beliefs. ive only
> criticized the way in which u arrived at a few of
> ur beliefs.

You mischaracterized them and simplified them to the point that they don't resemble what I believe. Perhaps you've done that unintentionally but I doubt it. You repeatedly dumb down the assertions of those who think differently than you do. Then you accuse those people of being psychologically unhealthy, praise yourself for your own psychological strength and dismiss what others believe.

>
> u seem to beleive that u and i see the world in 2
> totally different & incompatible ways but i dont
> believe we do. actually we see the world similarly
> for similar reasons. we both beleive that the
> earth is round that abraham lincoln is dead that
> there actually exists a country called france that
> barak obama is the current president of the us
> that the earth orbits the sun etc. we both came to
> believe these things for similar reasons & by
> using similar reasoning processes.
>
> its mostly only the core beliefs of your religion
> that we disagree about and i think its because u
> did not arrive at those beliefs by using the same
> reasoning process that u used to come to the above
> beleifs. u made an arbitrary exception for them in
> ur reasoning process by labeling them supernatural
> as if that would exempt them from the need for
> evidence.

I wish you well, indy.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/20/2010 04:34PM by pb.
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
January 20, 2010 05:09PM
You mischaracterized them and simplified them to the point that they don't resemble what I believe.-pb

ive characterized ur belief in the resurrection of jesus as being a belief in a physical bodily resurrection of jesus as contrasted primarily with the belief that the resurrection of jesus was metaphorical or only symbolic, only mythical. if this is not ur belief then pls characterize ur belief in words of ur own choosing.
----------------------------------

Perhaps you've done that unintentionally but I doubt it. You repeatedly dumb down the assertions of those who think differently than you do.-pb

can u give a couple of examples where ive done this?
---------------------------------

Then you accuse those people of being psychologically unhealthy, praise yourself for your own psychological strength and dismiss what others believe.-pb

now im afraid youve mischaracterized what i wrote. i never wrote that it was unhealthy to accept a belief for psychological reasons. i only pointed out that this is done, that this is a fact. beliefs sometimes R accepted for psychological reasons and not for rational reasons. i think this fact is so pervasive its practically inarguable.
------------------------------------
pb
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
January 20, 2010 05:26PM
indy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You mischaracterized them and simplified them to
> the point that they don't resemble what I
> believe.-pb
>
> ive characterized ur belief in the resurrection of
> jesus as being a belief in a physical bodily
> resurrection of jesus as contrasted primarily with
> the belief that the resurrection of jesus was
> metaphorical or only symbolic, only mythical. if
> this is not ur belief then pls characterize ur
> belief in words of ur own choosing.

Wrong, ind.

You've dumbed down my reasons for believing in it. You've made it something a four year old probably wouldn't believe if his Sunday School teacher--who was his grandma--taught it to him.

It's convenient to dumbify the beliefs of others but it's disrepectful and it doesn't really help you, either.
> ----------------------------------
>
> Perhaps you've done that unintentionally but I
> doubt it. You repeatedly dumb down the assertions
> of those who think differently than you do.-pb
>
> can u give a couple of examples where ive done
> this?

Perhaps you might want to stop considering yourself psychologically more healthy than each and every one of the 2 1/2 billion Christians in the world. You probably are not as soundly put together as you want us to think you are and we ALL certainly are not as flawed as you make us out to be.
> ---------------------------------
>
> Then you accuse those people of being
> psychologically unhealthy, praise yourself for
> your own psychological strength and dismiss what
> others believe.-pb
>
> now im afraid youve mischaracterized what i wrote.
> i never wrote that it was unhealthy to accept a
> belief for psychological reasons. i only pointed
> out that this is done, that this is a fact.
> beliefs sometimes R accepted for psychological
> reasons and not for rational reasons. i think this
> fact is so pervasive its practically inarguable.

Perhaps you need to reread your posts.
> ------------------------------------
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
January 20, 2010 11:49PM
You've dumbed down my reasons for believing in it. You've made it something a four year old probably wouldn't believe if his Sunday School teacher--who was his grandma--taught it to him.-pb

then u agree with me that u were wrong when u said earlier that i mischaracterized ur beliefs. now u r only saying that i mischaracterized the reasons that u hold the beliefs related to ur religion. thats a different debate. if u do agree with this then we can debate whether ive actually mischaracterized the reasons that u hold the beliefs u hold.

to put a sharper point on this, saying that ive mischaracterized the reason that u hold a belief is not the same thing as saying that ive mischaracterized the belief that u hold, as u said earlier. so which is it? do you beleive that ive mischaracterized ur belief or do u believe that ive mischaracterized the reasons that u hold that belief?

again, ive characterized ur belief as being a beleif in a physical bodily resurrection of jesus. if this is a mischaracterization, then pls by all means correct it. if u cannot correct it then i can hardly be found at fault for characterizing a belief of urs which even u cannot characterize in a noneqivalent precise manner. im doing the best i can with what im given to work with here, pb.
------------------------

Perhaps you might want to stop considering yourself psychologically more healthy than each and every one of the 2 1/2 billion Christians in the world. You probably are not as soundly put together as you want us to think you are and we ALL certainly are not as flawed as you make us out to be.-pb

youve actually managed to combine two logical fallacies into one short argument. clap, clap. the argument isnt about whether im psychologically healthy or not. thats a red herring. it is about whether u hold a particular belief for psychological reasons and not rational reasons.

my psychological health whatever its status has nothing to do with the merits of the argument im making. to imply that it does is an ad hominem.

r u sure you have a degree in philosophy? u might take another look at the fine print on ur diploma. maybe it says physiology.

jk. that last was an ad hom on my part.
------------------------

Perhaps you need to reread your posts.-pb

too painful. if i wrote like u, sure id reread them all the time, itd be a pleasure. but i write like me with all the style of an eithgth grader.
pb
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
January 21, 2010 03:51AM
I wish you well, indy.
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
January 21, 2010 10:04AM
Pb writes,

Quote
Perhaps you might want to stop considering yourself psychologically more healthy than each and every one of the 2 1/2 billion Christians in the world.

We don't; we just consider ourselves psychologically more healthy than pb, who should quit hiding behind Christians as though they all think like he.
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
January 21, 2010 03:14PM
2 1/2 billion chrsitians does not equal 2 1/2 billion fundamentalist christians.

fundamentalists like pb and jeurgen - who like most other fundamentalists probably hate the term fundamentalist- sometime seem to believe that all christians believe things like a physical bodily resurrection but thats not close to being true.
pb
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
January 21, 2010 04:00PM
indy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 2 1/2 billion chrsitians does not equal 2 1/2
> billion fundamentalist christians.
>
> fundamentalists like pb and jeurgen - who like
> most other fundamentalists probably hate the term
> fundamentalist- sometime seem to believe that all
> christians believe things like a physical bodily
> resurrection but thats not close to being true.

indy,

Fundamentalism is a theological movement that surfaced in the late 19th century--from Princeton. I'd be curious: Tell me what your definition of the term fundamentalist is and how many Christians you suppose share and don't share in that theological belief system.
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
January 21, 2010 06:26PM
fundamentalist xtians hold literal beliefs about the supernatural claims of there religion. many of them r unable to distinguish metaphor from fact.
such beliefs include:

The inspiration of the Bible by the Holy Spirit and the inerrancy of Scripture as a result of this.
The virgin birth of Christ.
The belief that Christ's death was the atonement for sin.
The bodily resurrection of Christ.
The historical reality of Christ's miracles.

u qualify. but like many fundamentalist xtians u probably run from the label like democrats run from the liberal label. i dont blame you.
pb
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
January 21, 2010 10:04PM
indy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> fundamentalist xtians hold literal beliefs about
> the supernatural claims of there religion. many of
> them r unable to distinguish metaphor from fact.
> such beliefs include:
>
> The inspiration of the Bible by the Holy Spirit
> and the inerrancy of Scripture as a result of
> this.
> The virgin birth of Christ.
> The belief that Christ's death was the atonement
> for sin.
> The bodily resurrection of Christ.
> The historical reality of Christ's miracles.
>
> u qualify. but like many fundamentalist xtians u
> probably run from the label like democrats run
> from the liberal label. i dont blame you.

Interesting list. And, your suggestion is that only a small minority of people identified as Christians believe these things? Am I correct?

Are you sure you're not sam? She used to abreviate Christian as Xtian. Why not just Xn? And, why not Christianity as Xy?

If you're going to abreviate, then abreviate!
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
January 22, 2010 03:38AM
pb
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
February 07, 2010 12:27AM
Gang,

Anyone know where ff is?

He promised to debunk the tales of the resurrection and both isle and I encouraged him to do so. Since then, he been nearly mute.
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
February 07, 2010 01:56AM
FF has already debunked the resurrection tale from many different angles, and now he's tired of playing with pb, since pb considers philosophy no more than a tennis match where he's free to make up the rules as he goes along so that he always "wins".

Pb is engaging in Conspiracy Theory Syndrome, where one adopts an absurd position and then challenges all comers to disprove one's assertions on one's own absurd terms. The point is to make one's opinions the center of attention, not to find truth.

There are many brand name conspiracy theories to choose from for those who need to play games like this.

Here is one of the latest and most popular:

[www.davidicke.com]
As an atheist, why should I try to explain something for which there is not yet a scientific explanation? After all, some of Jesus' feats, if they are literally true and not just abstract parables, would be beyond our immediate comprehension, and although I wouldn't choose to call them miracles, I would certainly categorize them with the unsolved mysteries of the universe.

BTW, after I went through my disillusionment with and hartred of religion, I realized that Jesus, whether divine or not (please don't argue this point, the scope of this message is much broader), was a person of extraordinary values which every human should emulate. My opinion is that you needn't be religious or a Bible adherent to believe that Jesus was a rebel ahead of his time, who taught love and compassion to his fellow humans, and he still influences even non-believers like myself today.
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
July 22, 2010 06:54AM
Well stated, Karen.

Welcome to the forum! I hope you stick around.
pb
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
July 22, 2010 03:43PM
Anonymous User Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As an atheist, why should I try to explain
> something for which there is not yet a scientific
> explanation?

Duh, Karen, by definition, a miracle is a supernatural event. Science deals solely with nature and not all of nature but only that part of nature that human senses can encounter. You are advocating the worldview known on this board as "Science-ism," i.e., the unjustifiable belief that the scientific method is the ultimate foundation of all knowledge. While that belief is insupportable, it is commonly held here. You will find, and please excuse the sexist terminology, much FELLOWship here among those who share your unjustiable beliefs.

> After all, some of Jesus' feats, if
> they are literally true and not just abstract
> parables, would be beyond our immediate
> comprehension, ...

Comprehension? No. Only to those whose view of reality is so stifled that it can only acknowledge what human senses can encounter and what the human intellect can analyze. I can fully comprehend the miracles because I don't limit my understanding of potential by your very narrow belief system.

> ...and although I wouldn't choose to
> call them miracles, I would certainly categorize
> them with the unsolved mysteries of the universe.

Just so you understand that your choice is based on a belief system that you can't justify.

>
> BTW, after I went through my disillusionment with
> and hartred of religion, I realized that Jesus,
> whether divine or not (please don't argue this
> point, the scope of this message is much broader),
> was a person of extraordinary values which every
> human should emulate.

Indeed He was all of that, at least.

> My opinion is that you
> needn't be religious or a Bible adherent to
> believe that Jesus was a rebel ahead of his time,
> who taught love and compassion to his fellow
> humans, and he still influences even non-believers
> like myself today.

What happened to His body, there, Karen? What flaws do you find with the Christian explanation? What better explanation can you offer, based on the facts available to us?
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