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Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!

Posted by PalinIsTheTruth 
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
January 03, 2010 01:54AM
> id like to read pauls account
> of this. do you remember where this is written
> about in the bible?

There are several.-pb

in other words you misspoke (to be kind) and there is no such passage in the bible. thats kind of what i figured.



But, honestly indy, you don't come across as a serious seeker of knowledge.-pb

and you dont come across as a historian, pb. if i had to guess id guess that you have a degree from a small fundy bible college in something like new testament studies - but that doesn't make you a historian. any mainstream historian would laugh at loud at the stuff that you swallow without batting an eye.
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
January 03, 2010 02:03AM
“But, the point is that you are acknowleding that what you are doing is believing. The only difference between us is that I acknowledge that I am believing and you are not. All I'm asking from you on this point is honesty for you WITH YOURSELF.---pb

Slowly read your first two sentences…do you always contradict yourself like that? - islander

a big part of the problem here is that pb doesnt know the difference between a belief and a justified belief. this is symptomatic of the problem with this thread. throughout the thread other posters have assumed that pb understands certain terms and concepts about which pb actually knows very little about or perhaps even nothing at all. not surprisingly the discussion has gone around in circles and eventually trailed off into the trading of insults. you may as well argue with an intelligent junior high student as to argue with pb about what beliefs are, how they differ from one to the other, why some are strong and others weak, etc.
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
January 03, 2010 03:05AM
"a big part of the problem here is that pb doesnt know the difference between a belief and a justified belief."---indy

I might be judging pb too harshly and you might be right, indy, that he really doesn't know the difference, but I suspect he does because he's claimed that he has a degree in philosophy. Therefore I tend to see his arguments here as disingenuous on his part. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I think the reason both he and Juergen have a hard time dealing with this is because of the implications, at least in their mind, that accepting that this is an event for which there is insufficient evidence to grant it the title of good history might entail.

Millions of Christians accept the materialist's physical resurrection as an article of faith, acknowledging that it can't pe proved historically. Others accept the resurrection, but don't see it in the form of a resuscitated corpse, they lean more toward the understanding of Christian theologians like Kung, Rahner, etc. and as Borg says, "Resurrection could, but need not mean that the corpse had been affected; a corpse coming to life is not the point". In fact, Kung writes that although the Resurrection is real, those who take the materialistic position miss the point of the Ressurection, but now we are entering the realm of theological arguments.
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
January 03, 2010 05:10AM
My family rarely discussed the Bible at home. Like most things we adopt into our lifestyle, it was a passive indoctrination. My parents made us go to Sunday school and church, but outside of that they were never pushy with religion. And as I said, for the most part, I enjoyed my church related experiences.

My guess would be that most parents pre-decide their childrens' religious beliefs. It's almost unavoidable.
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
January 03, 2010 05:18PM
I'm just always dubious of people of faith who adamantly and almost desperately insist that that which they have faith in has unassailable evidence of being fact when their interpretations of such "evidence" are simply another element of faith for them.

It's interesting that so many people of faith these days seem to need this evidence when God's M.O. apparently has been not to leave any real and unassailable evidence of His existence behind over the centuries. Almost like He's been trying to tell His followers, "You don't need evidence. It's not about evidence. That's why it's called faith".

Maybe this is why God doesn't heal amputees. Performing miracles like that would actually act towards helping kill faith.

pb
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
January 03, 2010 08:43PM
indy,

and you dont come across as a historian, pb.

Fortunately, I did come across as a historian to the people in front of whom I defended my disseration.

if i had to guess id guess that you have a degree from a small fundy bible college in something like new testament studies - but that doesn't make you a historian. any mainstream historian would laugh at loud at the stuff that you swallow without batting an eye.

You're not a good guesser.

And, you really do come across as someone convinced that s/he has it already figured out and who doesn't need to think about things in a new way. Some people here come across--to me--as convinced of what they think and fearful of being stretched. I get from you a sense that you don't have the need to be stretched.

If you are a seeker of truth go, grab a Bible and read the letters of Paul, not as faith documents but as the earliest Christian documents that are extant, written very, very early in the movement, accepted by the best scholars as being the authentic work of a known historical figure. Don't search for theological truth and question what can be known for certain about life in the movment. It can be fascinating reading.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/03/2010 08:49PM by pb.
pb
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
January 03, 2010 08:51PM
indy Wrote:

>
> a big part of the problem here is that pb doesnt
> know the difference between a belief and a
> justified belief.

Hank! Ma man!
pb
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
January 03, 2010 08:55PM
It's interesting that so many people of faith these days seem to need this evidence when God's M.O. apparently has been not to leave any real and unassailable evidence of His existence behind over the centuries. -- pond

"After his suffering, he showed himself to these men and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God." (Acts 1:3)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/03/2010 10:35PM by pb.
pb
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
January 03, 2010 11:03PM
Millions of Christians accept the materialist's physical resurrection as an article of faith... -- isle

Try b-b-b-billions.

Others accept the resurrection, but don't see it in the form of a resuscitated corpse...

From what I can tell, isle, the early Christians proclaimed a resuscitated corpse.

John's Gospel, though perhaps not penned by John is certainly a very early proclamation of Christian belief. The well known "doubting Thomas" pericope in which John has Jesus saying, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe," suggests to me that the early Christian belief was that the body of Jesus was physically resurrected. (John 20:24-28)

Paul's very early first letter to the church in Thessalonica suggests that an essential element of Paul's message is that there would be a bodily resurrection of Christians who die before Jesus returns based on the shared Christian belief in the bodily resurrection of Jesus. (See the end of 1 Thess 4.)

I participate in the historic Christian theological tradition known either as Primitivism or Restorationism. I'm not sure if George would describe himself in that way or not. It is my goal to believe what the first Christians believed. I am convinced that they believed in and proclaimed a literal resurrection of the body of Jesus, which they acknowledged was absurd and without which Christian preaching is empty. (1 Cor. 15:14-20)

Do you have any evidence from ancient Christian documents that Christians believed in anything other than the literal physical resurrection of Jesus. I am aware of the teaching of Hans Kung and Karl Rahnmer and other Catholic liberals and modernists. What I'm not aware of is that there is any basis for their beliefs in ancient Christianity. What evidence is ther for Kung's and Rahner's and, I suppose isle's belief, other than its easier to align that belief with 20th century sciencism?

Enlighten me if you can.
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
January 04, 2010 12:49AM
all those quotes and still nothing about paul saying that he personally witnessed christians being oppressed.

go figure.
pb
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
January 04, 2010 12:57AM
indy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> all those quotes and still nothing about paul
> saying that he personally witnessed christians
> being oppressed.
>
> go figure.

ind,

The letters of Paul were written in the midst of intense persecution. References to oppression at the hands of both Jews and Romans fill his letters. If you have any interest and even Sunday School level knowledge this would be well known to you. It is not in dispute among even the most poorly informed. What's more, I've alluded to some of those passages in this thead.
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
January 04, 2010 01:12AM
There are only about one billion Christians in the world, and most of them do not really believe Jesus physically came back to life after death. Many think it is a metaphor, most "sorta" believe it in that gray area between not giving it much thought and just going along with it in a non-committal way.


Even Catholics take it like like Noah's ark or the Garden of Eden, just a tale. Only the Born-Agains, Jehovah's Witnesses and other sub-groups think it's important to take the Resurrection literally, and since they are so insular they don't realize belief is not an either/or proposition. Someone like pb can never be honest about his own thoughts, even to himself.
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
January 04, 2010 01:19AM
u specifically stated that paul witnessed the oppression of 6 christians but u cant seem to find the biblical passage to support ur belief

r u mistaken?
pb
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
January 04, 2010 01:22AM
linc Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There are only about one billion Christians in the
> world, and most of them do not really believe
> Jesus physically came back to life after death.
> Many think it is a metaphor, most "sorta" believe
> it in that gray area between not giving it much
> thought and just going along with it in a
> non-committal way.

Conservative estimates indicate that there are at least 1.5 billion Christians alive in the world today. Most estimates suggest that there are 2.0 to 2.2 billion. Due to the rapid growth of Christianity in Asia and Africa it is estimated that there will be 3 billion.
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
January 04, 2010 01:47AM
"What evidence is ther for Kung's and Rahner's and, I suppose isle's belief, other than its easier to align that belief with 20th century sciencism?"---pb

I wouldn't mind discussing this with you, particularly Kung's and Rahner's theological views regarding the Resurrection, but certain things need to be made clear first, since it will save a lot of wasted time. You seem to be biased against something you call, “20th century sciencism”. What is this “20th century sciencism” that you're referring to, and what’s wrong with it in your opinion? It seems to me that you are against the findings of science intruding on history. In other words, when you use the word history or historicity of an event, are you more interested it what people’s beliefs were (and might still be) with regard to the event in question, or what actually occurred?

I suspect, but I’m not sure, that you’d prefer history tell us what people believed, and that what actually occurred is of less value or consequence (with regard to history). History should be used, for instance, only to demonstrate that certain people once believed a volcano destroyed their village because they didn't sacrifice a virgin to the volcano and this should be taken at face value??? And, in describing that eruption, we shouldn't be concerned with what science has determined as to why volcanoes erupt? Same thing with people believing demons or evil spirits as the cause of disease. Should we accept as an historical fact that at that time, evil spirits actually caused disease?
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