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Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!

Posted by PalinIsTheTruth 
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
December 31, 2009 03:53PM
Some more problems with miracles. As I mentioned before, in order to accept the idea that a purported event is a miracle, the physical Resurrection, for instance, one usually needs to support that belief with other miracles, such as apparitions, and the ascension into heaven etc, and one soon finds oneself having to believe in a whole tangled web of miracles and supernatural explanations.

Then too, we have the capriciousness of purported miracles, after a horrific car wreck in which three teenagers were killed, how does one justify praising God for miraculously saving the fourth one? If he intervened like that, what about the other three? And how does one square the horror of what was occurring in Auschwitz, while God was supposedly, at that same moment, miraculously healing someone else’s hearing? As a child, I was taught that we can’t make sense of things like that, because “God’s ways are not our ways”, and it is a virtue to believe even if what we are told to believe doesn’t make sense to us. Strange thing is…we were also taught that God gave us the ability to think and to reason…so that we would be able to make sense of things. If God and the things he does makes no sense to us, as Unamuno would say, “Wherefore God”, what’s the whole point of a non-sensible God?
pb
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
December 31, 2009 03:55PM
indy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm confident in accusing Wade of never, ever
> actually investigating whether verifiable miracles
> take place.
>
> so what would a rigorous investigation of a
> verifiable miracle look like? well according to
> jeurgen and pb essentially it amounts to taking
> the word of the catholic church.
>
> jeurgen wrote:
> The Roman Catholic church officially recognises a
> number of miracles a year, and in modern times
> only after pretty rigorous investigation because
> they don't want to look like idiots when the
> miracles turn out to be fakes. So, a supernatural
> claim has been verified in the eyes of Catholics,
> but in the eyes of hardened sceptics it hasn't
> because they expect a virtually unmeetable level
> of verification.
>
> pb wrote:
> Exactly, J.
>
> these guys are incredibly easy. if some tv
> preacher hasnt already bilked them of thier life
> savings its only a matter of time until one does.
>
> jeurgen says that the catholic church verifies
> miracles only after a "pretty rigorous
> investigation" yet neither he or pb has a clear
> idea of just what that rigorous investigation
> entails. they just take the catholic churchs word
> for it. amazing.
>
> if anyone has a prayer cloth for sale i can give
> you the name of two prospects where you might
> unload it. more free advice. tell them the
> catholic church has verefied that its been
> autographed by jesus and double your asking price.

There is nothing like the sanctimony of a sciencist fundy.
pb
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
December 31, 2009 04:05PM
islander Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Some more problems with miracles. As I mentioned
> before, in order to accept the idea that a
> purported event is a miracle, the physical
> Resurrection, for instance, one usually needs to
> support that belief with other miracles, such as
> apparitions, and the ascension into heaven etc,
> and one soon finds oneself having to believe in a
> whole tangled web of miracles and supernatural
> explanations.

It does get vexious, isle. But, I'll ask you for the gazillionth time how you account for these two realities apart from belittling the question, as you have done in the past.

1. What happened to the body of Jesus?
2.. Why did none of the people who claimed to have seen him alive after death admit that the claim of the resurrection was a hoax--to the point that, as 2 Cor. 11 makes clear, they were being violently oppressed for proclaiming the Christian message?

I'll be the first to admit that I believe in many things that laws of nature can't explain. But, then, I don't place existential trust in them as you do. What you won't admit is that the Christian explanation of the historical data explains the data is a very comprehensive way.

I think that Juergen has hit on the essense of the problem that surfaces here again and again. You make natural laws your God. You believe in them with rigor that makes Pat Robertson's Christian fundamentalism seem like Baha'i philosophy.

Mark Twain was correct about the conversations that take place on this board:

----------------

Fighting TDS since 016.

"C'mon, man!"
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
December 31, 2009 04:22PM
You make natural laws your God. You believe in them with rigor that makes Pat Robertson's Christian fundamentalism seem like Baha'i philosophy.---pb

Unfortunately, pb, you've worn that one out long ago, I'll simply repeat to you what I said earlier, "My view of what is possible is based on our knowledge and understanding of the known physical laws of the universe and the rules of logic. I’m well aware that our present knowledge is incomplete and that my views could change based on new information." In other words, my beliefs of what is, and what is not possible, are tentative, and based on our current understanding of the physical laws of the universe and the rules of logic...they can change, they are not dogmatic and written in stone like the beliefs in God held by fundamentalists like Pat Robertson and, apparently, yourself. I know you'd like to be able to put the positions I hold with regard to what is possible on the same level as your beliefs in God...but no matter how hard you try and no matter many times you keep saying it...that will never make it so.
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
December 31, 2009 04:32PM
"What you won't admit is that the Christian explanation of the historical data explains the data is a very comprehensive way."---pb

So does the Catholic Church's explanation of it's dogma, you seem to forget, your line of "reasoning" has been perfected by the Catholic Church and their scholars are far more adept at it than you. And it was within the Catholic Church that I had my upbringing and education. I don't know whether you fail to see the flaw in your above claim or not, I suspect that you don't or you would not have tried to use it.
pb
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
December 31, 2009 04:34PM
islander Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You make natural laws your God. You believe in
> them with rigor that makes Pat Robertson's
> Christian fundamentalism seem like Baha'i
> philosophy.---pb
>
> Unfortunately, pb, you've worn that one out long
> ago, I'll simply repeat to you what I said
> earlier, "My view of what is possible is based on
> our knowledge and understanding of the known
> physical laws of the universe and the rules of
> logic. I’m well aware that our present knowledge
> is incomplete and that my views could change based
> on new information." In other words, my beliefs of
> what is, and what is not possible, are tentative,
> and based on our current understanding of the
> physical laws of the universe and the rules of
> logic...they can change, they are not dogmatic and
> written in stone like the beliefs in God held by
> fundamentalists like Pat Robertson and,
> apparently, yourself. I know you'd like to be able
> to put the positions I hold with regard to what is
> possible on the same level as your beliefs in
> God...but no matter how hard you try and no matter
> many times you keep saying it...that will never
> make it so.

I'm still awaiting your interpretion of the historical data regarding the whereabouts of the body of Jesus and the unrestrained courage of the people who claimed to witness Him alive after death. As far as we know, no one who claimed to have seen Him alive after death recanted. What lie would you and all of your friends die for?

I know that such a post may take you time to compose. I'm waiting patiently.

On the other point, one of the big picture truths one can glean from the Sermon on the Mount is that what one really believes can accurately be observed in what a person actually does. In this very thread, you imposed a sciencist definition of what is possible on the historical data presented in that brief passage from Paul's letter.

I'm sure that you have accurately described above what you wish to think. But, what you do--which reveals what you really do believe--is assert rigid adherence to the religion of science in a way that'd make sox and hank a little uncomfortable. (Hank, if you're lurking, you can stop blushing now.)

It's what you do, isle, that speaks to us not what you say.

In order to convince someone that you think what you say you think, you are going to have to act differently.
pb
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
December 31, 2009 04:37PM
islander Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "What you won't admit is that the Christian
> explanation of the historical data explains the
> data is a very comprehensive way."---pb
>
> So does the Catholic Church's explanation of it's
> dogma, you seem to forget, your line of
> "reasoning" has been perfected by the Catholic
> Church and their scholars are far more adept at it
> than you. And it was within the Catholic Church
> that I had my upbringing and education. I don't
> know whether you fail to see the flaw in your
> above claim or not, I suspect that you don't or
> you would not have tried to use it.

Actrually, isle, seriously, I don't see it. And, I am a seeker opf truth. If there is obvious error in my reasoning, I'd be indebted to you if you could show it to me.

Am I misunderstanding historical fact?

Is my alligning of the facts faulty?

What is the flaw?
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
December 31, 2009 05:05PM
after harshly criticizing wade for wade's failure to investigate whether verefied miracles have occured pb still wont tell us how he goes about verefying the occurence of miracles.

the best hes done so far is to say that he takes the catholic churchs word for it when it says a miracle has occured even though he has no idea of how the catholic church goes about the process of verefying miracles. i guess this is what pb means when he says he doesnt beleive in reason. he gets his truth from the pope instead.

so sad the lengths some adults will go to rather than to subject thier most cherished beliefs to the scrutiny of reason.
pb
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
December 31, 2009 05:10PM
indy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> after harshly criticizing wade for wade's failure
> to investigate whether verefied miracles have
> occured pb still wont tell us how he goes about
> verefying the occurence of miracles.

Nothing harsh, there, indy. I merely stated my conviction that Wade didn't think the matter through carefully.
>
> the best hes done so far is to say that he takes
> the catholic churchs word for it when it says a
> miracle has occured even though he has no idea of
> how the catholic church goes about the process of
> verefying miracles. i guess this is what pb means
> when he says he doesnt beleive in reason. he gets
> his truth from the pope instead.

Uh uh.
>
> so sad the lengths some adults will go to rather
> than to subject thier most cherished beliefs to
> the scrutiny of reason.

I don't know what I'd do without you, ind. I don't watch TV so Comedy Central is not an option for me.
Jun
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
December 31, 2009 05:19PM
I'm just here to have fun Pb. tongue sticking out smiley

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Juni {^á´¥^}


"Don't judge other people just because they sin differently from you!" ~ Anon

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Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
December 31, 2009 05:28PM
I've got to head out in about ten minutes but before I go, here is a quick answer to your question, "What is the flaw?"

Assume we are searching for the truth. Truth being that which conforms to reality.

Basic assumption: All black birds are crows.

Truth claim: A bird, which is black, that I see sitting on the branch has to be a crow based on the factual data.

The truth claim is false, even though there are no inconsistencies or contradictions in the data and reasoning used to come to the false conclusion that the bird has to be a crow. A 'balanced equation' does not necessarily relate to anything in reality. Simply because you can make a claim where everything "fits" should not be taken to mean that the claim is true. The original assertion used in the above "equation" does not relate to anything in reality. In this instance, we know that in reality all black birds are not crows. The Christian explanation explaining the data requires the existence of a God who transgresses natural law in order to make everything "fit". The arguable existence of such a being makes the conclusion arguable, the explanation would only be true, "if" there were such a being.
pb
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
December 31, 2009 06:18PM
What I said: "What you won't admit is that the Christian explanation of the historical data explains the data is a very comprehensive way."

What you (isle) said: "The Christian explanation explaining the data requires the existence of a God who transgresses natural law in order to make everything "fit". The arguable existence of such a being makes the conclusion arguable, the explanation would only be true, "if" there were such a being."

Don't accuse me of saying things that I'm not saying.

I'm not saying anything about God.

Now, isle, I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here and granting that this is not just a dodge so that you can avoid admitting that I've argued you into a corner.

What I've been doing in the last half of this thread is discussing history, not theology.

This has nothing to do with God.

It has to do with the fact that Jesus had a body and with the question what happened to the body.

I'm merely asserting that the explanation provided by the early Christian movement is, as I've quoted above, 'very comprehensive.' It suggests that Jesus rose from the dead and ascended into heaven.

That explanation is comprehensive in that is accounts for the disappearance of the body and the inability of anyone to find it. It asserts that no one will EVER find the body because the body is no longer on the earth.

An easy answer to that claim is that the followers of Jesus stole the body from its tomb and made up the story of the resurrection. That is a very reasonable explanation of the fact that the body cannot be found.

However, the historical data we can derive from the lives of the people who made the claim to have seen Jesus alive after His death does not support the suggestion that they were lying about it. Again, that 2 Corinthians passage, when viewed as the valuable historical document that it is, indicates that there was vicious oppression against leaders of the Christian movement--violent persecution--and there is no evidence that even one of the people who claimed to have seen Jesus alive after His death recanted either that story or their faith in Jesus.

I'm making no assertion in this thread at all--as you suggest I am--about the existence of a God "who transgresses natural law." I'm not talking about God at all. I'm talking about the body of Jesus and the explanations of what happened to it.

So, understanding now, that I'm making no claims about God and that I'm only concerned in knowing how you account for the disappearance of the body of Jesus, give me your own thoughts regarding these two questions:

1. What happened to the body of Jesus?

2.. Why did none of the people who claimed to have seen him alive after death admit that the claim of the resurrection was a hoax--to the point that, as 2 Cor. 11 makes clear, they were being violently oppressed for proclaiming the Christian message?


We can discuss theology later. I'd be glad to. But, for now, let's stick to the historical data.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/31/2009 08:37PM by pb.
Anonymous User
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
December 31, 2009 06:40PM
Quote

Premise 1: All black birds are crows.
Premise 2: The bird which I see sitting on the branch is black.
Conclusion: Since all black birds are crows, and the bird which I see sitting on the branch is black, the bird is a crow.

The conclusion is false, even though there are no errors in the logic used to come to the false conclusion that the bird has to be a crow. A logical argument does not necessarily relate to anything in reality. Simply because you can make an argument where everything "fits" should not be taken to mean that its conclusion is true. The original premise used in the above argument does not relate to anything in reality. In this instance, we know that in reality all black birds are not crows.

The Christian explanation of the data requires the existence of a God who transgresses natural law in order to make everything "fit". The arguable existence of such a being makes the conclusion arguable; the explanation would only be true if there were such a being.

Isle, I've read over your post a few times and that's the most sensical interpretation I can come with.

My response later. Happy new year, everybody.
Anonymous User
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
December 31, 2009 06:42PM
Never mind, pb basically said what I was going to.
Re: Atheists still can't explain the miracles of JESUS!
December 31, 2009 09:27PM
Juerg,

You're interpretation is correct!

"Happy New Year"
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