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Is mandated wealth redistribution immoral?

Posted by tuk22 
Re: Is mandated wealth redistribution immoral?
July 28, 2015 01:52AM
Oh hey Indyyyyyy ... how about this one? cool smiley

Ponderer: C, do you seriously imagine that all of the men you posted pictures of wearing women's clothes were gay? Seriously?

Indy: He's hoping...


Oops!!
Re: Is mandated wealth redistribution immoral?
July 28, 2015 02:52AM
2012? Ahhh... so you're still wading thru that ocean of posts. grinning smiley
Re: Is mandated wealth redistribution immoral?
August 08, 2015 04:43AM
Indy? Oh Indyyyyyyyyyyyyyy!!!

Navy2711 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
...I was drawing my own
> conclusion of, "Well, they just don't like getting
> hammered by Dick...


Indy: Spoken like someone who can appreciate getting hammered by dick. smoking smiley








OOOOPS!!

smoking smiley
Re: Is mandated wealth redistribution immoral?
August 10, 2015 01:33AM
Welfare is wealth redistribution. I personally think that it does more harm than good. It pays and rewards bad work ethics and punishes success. It is not meant to but it does just that. The only real fare way to tax is a sales tax or a flat tax.
Re: Is mandated wealth redistribution immoral?
August 13, 2015 11:03PM
There is no industrialized country on the planet that uses a sales tax or flat tax as their national tax. Why? Because it's an incredibly regressive tax that hurts the middle class and poor far more than any other group. If you are in one of those two classes - and I'm betting you are - your taxes would go thru the roof. Why? Because there wouldn't be enough money to pay the bills unless that flat tax was something on the order of 20-25% (not the 9% nutjobs like Henry Cain would have you believe). It would also discourage home sales, car sales and sales in general. Why? Pretty obvious - because when you buy something you would be paying tax on it (probably 20-25%) - so people are going to buy less which does what? Hurts business and the economy. What the Steve Forbes and David Kocks of the world don't tell you on your Fox Flat Tax After School Special is they would be the only ones making out on a flat tax - everyone else's taxes would increase dramatically.

That - in a nutshell - is why nobody except the ultra rich (and those who have drank their kool-aid) want a national flat tax OR a national sales tax. There is NOTHING "fair" about it. Although you wrote "fare" which is - ironically - a good way to put it. Your "fare" would increase exponentially under one or both of those systems.
Re: Is mandated wealth redistribution immoral?
August 13, 2015 11:05PM
Oh - and btw - a sales tax or flat tax would also be "wealth distribution" because the rich would be paying less of their fair share. We would be redistributing more wealth upwards - exactly what we've been doing the last 30-40 years. That's what got us here in the first place. That's why every industrialized country on the planet has a progressive tax system - because that is the ONLY fair way to tax.
Re: Is mandated wealth redistribution immoral?
August 14, 2015 09:13AM
Indy,
I agree with all you said above. Except it's Herman Cain.



Which car or truck should I buy?
Re: Is mandated wealth redistribution immoral?
August 15, 2015 01:27AM
Close enough for government work. smiling smiley
Re: Is mandated wealth redistribution immoral?
August 16, 2015 04:30PM
"Welfare is wealth redistribution. I personally think that it does more harm than good. It pays and rewards bad work ethics and punishes success." -latch

Flaming bullshit.

Re: Is mandated wealth redistribution immoral?
August 17, 2015 02:46AM
Why do you call it flaming bullshit Ponderer? You need to be more specific. It does reward the wrong things and punishes the wrong things. I know that that is not the intent but it does. I lived in an inner city projects during the early 70's. I have seen the effects personally. That is why I think it does more harm than good. It is so abused that it needs to be thrown out.
Re: Is mandated wealth redistribution immoral?
August 17, 2015 03:03AM
Indy you said a lot of stuff and didn't back anything up. Why do YOU think it would be 20% if we did a flat tax? Why would you think a national sales tax be 20%. My state, Fl< doesn't have an income tax and we do fine. We have a sales tax of 7%. We still purchase cars and houses also. It doesn't hurt our home and car sales. The system we have now sucks big hairy ones man. If a system is so f***** up that there is a whole industry built around it or the politicians use it to harass opposition parties, or it is so messed up that they can always use it to nail a criminal, or innocent, person because they can't pin a murder charge on him. If we had a flat tax or national sales tax it would be harder for the politicians to pass pork spending and harder for them to raise taxes.
Re: Is mandated wealth redistribution immoral?
August 17, 2015 04:24PM
If all you want to do is focus on the handful of negatives about a social program while completely and totally ignoring the millions of lives that it benefits and literally saves, as it was meant to, you go right ahead. Just don't expect anyone to take your opinion seriously.

Any program is going to have abuse. You don't condemn the entire thing because of it. If you want to talk about addressing those issues, that's fine. There is always room for improvement. Let's talk about that. But I am sick to death of people attacking a program like welfare like it's this horrible thing going on that needs to be destroyed because of a few cases of abuse.

I understand that your having lived in an inner city in the 70's gives you wide and all-knowing authority to speak for the entire program of welfare as it is administered throughout the whole country in 2015, but I am respectfully refusing to acknowledge that authority. Forgive me.

And while we're at it, a flat tax is an asinine idea. As is a national sales tax.

Re: Is mandated wealth redistribution immoral?
August 17, 2015 04:29PM
Stock brokers routinely break the law and cheat in their trading practices.

Let's close down the stock market.

Police routinely abuse and even kill innocent, unarmed citizens.

Let's abolish police forces.

Prescription drugs routinely kill people who use them as directed.

Shut down the pharmaceutical industry.

Guns...

Oh don't even get me started.

Re: Is mandated wealth redistribution immoral?
August 17, 2015 08:06PM
Latch - I live in Florida and only pay 6% sales tax. Of course none of that goes towards the military, medicare, yada, yada - all the things the federal government must pay for. There have been plenty of studies on a flat tax and it's only a gift to the ultra wealthy - no one else. You need to look beyond what Fox News and Herman Cain are telling you. There's a reason no industrialized nations have a flat tax.

Edit: Here's some info on the flat tax from an economics professor (as opposed to the rich folks and people serving rich folks you usually hear from on this issue)...

According to an analysis by the nonpartisan Tax Policy Center, Mr. Cain’s proposal would increase the annual tax bill of a typical family of four earning $50,000 a year by more than $4,000, but would reduce the taxes owed by a similar family earning between $500,000 and $1 million by almost $60,000.

So - using simple math - if you're earning in the $50K range and paying (ballpark figure) 15% on your taxes now... Add in another 8% ($4K / $50K) according to the figures above and you're now paying 23% tax.

[www.nytimes.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/17/2015 08:15PM by Indy!.
Re: Is mandated wealth redistribution immoral?
August 19, 2015 08:26PM
Quote
tuk22
Kinda the Robin Hood argument

I guess you would also have to consider not only is it against freedom who manages the redistribution?

How much trust do you have in your wealth manager?

I understand all taxation = redistribution most of us believe in taxes but why do we desire to economically punish the successful? Is that a good message to promote? We want to help the homeless, children, the elderly, the sick... But should we redistribute wealth by mandate to make a poor persons life a tad more comfortable?

Try to see both the pros and cons if you can

The basis of arguments against redistribution seem to be based on very fuzzy thinking and illogical assumptions.

The jobs in society are what they are. People don't choose the fact that a capitalist society relies on a huge number of low paid workers, a smaller number of mid paid workers, and a tiny minority of high paid workers.

I have noticed a general theme particularly with Americans, but also conservatives everywhere, that people are poor because they don't work hard enough, and people are rich because they work hard.

This seems to suggest that by sheer graft and determination, people could will there to be a huge number of high paid jobs, and a tiny number of low paid jobs. In such a scenario, society would collapse over night.

The market is what it is, a civilised market driven economy adopts a socialist policy to ensure that no one lives in poverty.

Why should people be punished for something beyond their control?

And where exactly is the supposed hardship for the high paid people?

If person A makes $100,000 a year and person B makes $105,000 a year, which one is more hard off? Neither are hard off at all, they are both obscenely rich. Meanwhile, the difference between those two wages would completely change the lives of millions of people living in imposed poverty.
Re: Is mandated wealth redistribution immoral?
August 20, 2015 06:07AM
Here here, Thorn. thumbs up

I'll wager that the most common reason that wealthy people are wealthy is that they took much more care and consideration in picking who their parents were than poor people did.

Re: Is mandated wealth redistribution immoral?
August 20, 2015 11:27AM
Quote
Ponderer
Here here, Thorn. thumbs up

I'll wager that the most common reason that wealthy people are wealthy is that they took much more care and consideration in picking who their parents were than poor people did.

As ridiculous as it sounds, that isn't so far from a nonsense world view that is seldom challenged - the general notion that being in a low paid job is somehow a personal failure the individual should suffer some hardship for.

As though they set their wages, as though they conceived of an economic system whereby the majority of available jobs in society are low paid, as though there is anything they can do about it.

The underlying sentiment of "well if they'd tried harder they could have raised themselves up" belies a complete disconnect with reality.

There are the jobs there are in society. Every single low paid person in society can work as hard as they like - it's not going to change how many low, to mid, to high paid jobs are available and most of them are still going to have to do low paid jobs to prevent the complete collapse of society.

What is in our control is how we structure our society to make this a non-issue. A low paid job is not a problem if that person has access to free health care for their family, if their tax rate is lower and the better off people's tax rate is higher, if there is provision for free child care, a liveable state pension when they retire, affordable housing, and a fair minimum wage that allows them to survive, or at least tax credits to offset any small difference between minimum wage and what it is calculated is required.

Provided society is structured in the right way you can have a market driven economy much as it is today - with a majority of low paid workers, a minority of mid paid workers, and a tiny amount of high paid workers - and no one need be crushed by poverty.

That is what a civilised society is.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/20/2015 11:28AM by TheThorn.
Re: Is mandated wealth redistribution immoral?
August 20, 2015 04:51PM
I love how right wingers will confidently state that people in low-paying jobs that abuse and take advantage of workers just need to improve themselves and move up to better jobs. Like no one would take their place. They are basically declaring that there simply must be low-paying jobs wherein workers are abused and taken advantage of. Like it's the immutable foundation of our economy or something.

Many conservatives have not progressed very far, if at all, from the slave owning days of the 1800's.

Re: Is mandated wealth redistribution immoral?
August 21, 2015 07:32PM
Great points!!!!!!

This discussion should probably be in the Politics forum.
Re: Is mandated wealth redistribution immoral?
January 06, 2016 12:10AM
Trump will make america great again.

Eliminate commie SOCIAL security and obama care and food stamps programs that are stealing from the rich who earned every penny of their wealth to help the lazy poor who don't go to college and prefer to lead the lifestyle of poverty and entitlement of higher wages!!!

---

Hillary's email scandals and cover-up will blow up after the primaries. To nominate Hillary is to sabotage the Democratic party to lose, and a vote for the republican candidate!

Hillary for Prison 2016!!! Trump for President 2016!!! thumbs up smileys with beer



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/06/2016 12:12AM by NaWeh.
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