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The day the sun danced in the sky.
February 14, 2015 11:20PM
In July, 1917 it was claimed that the Virgin Mary, appearing before a 9-year-old girl and her two cousins in Fatima, Portugal, promised to perform a miracle in Fatima on Oct 13 "so that all would believe."

On that day a crowd estimated estimated from 30,000 to 100,000, including reporters, government officials, and other professionals, gathered at the site to await the miracle.

What happened next is amazing.

"Columnist Avelino de Almeida of O Século (Portugal's most influential newspaper, which was pro-government in policy and avowedly anti-clerical),[6] reported the following: "Before the astonished eyes of the crowd, whose aspect was biblical as they stood bare-headed, eagerly searching the sky, the sun trembled, made sudden incredible movements outside all cosmic laws - the sun 'danced' according to the typical expression of the people."[11]Eye specialist Dr. Domingos Pinto Coelho, writing for the newspaperOrdem reported "The sun, at one moment surrounded with scarlet flame, at another aureoled in yellow and deep purple, seemed to be in an exceeding fast and whirling movement, at times appearing to be loosened from the sky and to be approaching the earth, strongly radiating heat".[12] The special reporter for the October 17, 1917 edition of the Lisbon daily, O Dia, reported the following, "...the silver sun, enveloped in the same gauzy purple light was seen to whirl and turn in the circle of broken clouds...The light turned a beautiful blue, as if it had come through the stained-glass windows of a cathedral, and spread itself over the people who knelt with outstretched hands...people wept and prayed with uncovered heads, in the presence of a miracle they had awaited. The seconds seemed like hours, so vivid were they."[13]

-- wiki

Thousands of others reported seeing the same thing.

What do you believe about this event? If you believe that it's very unlikely that thousands of people can be mistaken about what they all believe they witness, then you seem to be pretty much locked into the position that the Virgin Mary actually appears to some people and communicates with them.

If you believe like me, that sometimes even thousands of people who describe in very similar terms an extraordinary event that they witness can be mistaken about what they believe they witnessed, then other explanations for the event are much more likely to account for it than is the extraordinary explanation that the thousands of witnesses themselves give for it.
Re: The day the sun danced in the sky.
February 15, 2015 01:19AM
Mass Hysteria is the likely position. By definition if a miracle actually happened it has to be considered an improbable event. But don't think for a second God doesn't exist because Moses didn't part the Red Sea...

We live in a world bound by rules, and yes we can conceive of a greater being temporally suspending these rules, or we can even conceive of a natural explanation for what may seem to many as an obvious miracle. We can also conceive of weirder @#$%&, like multidimensional reality crossing into our third dimensional world... But none of this needs to be true for God to exist.

To me God would be the foundation for this world. The world we experience. The world we have knowledge of...

The simplest metaphysical explanation to account for all reality... =p yes that argument still stands
Re: The day the sun danced in the sky.
February 15, 2015 01:33AM
Why do things that are merely possible fascinate you so much? This has little to do with the OP which is intended, I had hoped would start a discussion about things like the nature of evidence, the function of prior probability re: belief, the reliability (or lack thereof) of eyewitness testimony, etc., but I suppose you and I can also use this thread talk about the significance of conceivability to belief if you'd like.

So where do you see the chief value of possibility or conceivability lying as it relates to belief?
Re: The day the sun danced in the sky.
February 15, 2015 01:41AM
I can't let this pass by uncommented on:

"The simplest metaphysical explanation to account for all reality... [is God]."

No, the simplest would be a beginning-less universe without the addition of unexplained, unnecessary beings of any kind . . which increasingly looks as if it indeed the case.
Re: The day the sun danced in the sky.
February 15, 2015 01:41AM
They were all just seeing the planet Venus.

.
Re: The day the sun danced in the sky.
February 15, 2015 01:43AM
Their rye bread was probably moldy and they were tripping.

Or there was some less fantastic stellar event actually happening at the time (perhaps "predicted" by someone who understood the cosmos better than the average schmuck in 1917 Portugal - someone who knew it was going to happen.)

A more likely explanation is nobody saw anything out of the ordinary, but they wanted to think they did. However - if that is what happened (and I sincerely doubt they saw anything they didn't see every day of their lives - the sun in the sky) - there is still a very logical explanation for it. They were expecting a sign from heaven (or however you want to phrase it) - so if one person "sees" it or pretends to "see" it or simply lies their ass off - everyone is likely to support that "vision" rather than deny god was in their presence when s/he/it was supposed to appear. There is still a logical, verifiable "reason" (explanation) for the mass "vision"/hallucination/whatever term you want to use. It wasn't just a random event experienced by a group of people - there was plenty of mental and emotional groundwork laid in anticipation of the expected event. That type of "mass hallucination" (and again - I doubt anyone saw anything) is not the same as hundreds of people seeing a UFO or some other event not "predicted" or "expected" or desired by the entire group. In the event you describe - everyone was expecting something to happen. The leap from expected to "actually happening" is now a much shorter jump. If you understand how the mind works as well as you pretend - you know that.

Now that said - we can go back to the cop story with the witches. Is is possible some of those people believed they saw the sun dance? Sure. That doesn't mean it happened. Just as the cops can believe they saw a witch when there was no witch. And I - Indy - can believe those people believe they saw something - but it doesn't mean Indy believes there was a witch or a dancing sun. It means I believe they are mistaken in some way. smoking smiley
Re: The day the sun danced in the sky.
February 15, 2015 01:43AM
No you mean why does metaphysics matter to me... It's a realm of possibility not probability or science. I don't care nearly as much for 'what is known' my passion concerns 'what is'. Ultimate reality and Theology is a central branch of metaphysics. To each their own I guess.
Re: The day the sun danced in the sky.
February 15, 2015 01:48AM
BTW - the newspaper accounts are the easiest part to explain. Newspapers are a in the business of selling newspapers. A paper that says "yes you saw something" sells a lot better than one that says "Nope - nothing there".
Re: The day the sun danced in the sky.
February 15, 2015 01:52AM
lol you can't scientifically prove (being) is eternal I hope you know that... The theory suggests a hidden undetectable reality that is foundational.

IOW an undetectable reality that is eternal and accounts for all particulars in the universe.
Re: The day the sun danced in the sky.
February 15, 2015 01:53AM
Quote
Ponderer
They were all just seeing the planet Venus.

You never disappoint. You believe absolutely in the accuracy of eyewitness testimony . . . just as long as it agrees with what you already believe. lol
Re: The day the sun danced in the sky.
February 15, 2015 01:58AM
That you are waiting for a scientific proof that God does not exist is silly Dick
Re: The day the sun danced in the sky.
February 15, 2015 01:59AM
Quote
tuk22
lol you can't scientifically prove (being) is eternal I hope you know that... The theory suggests a hidden undetectable reality that is foundational.

IOW an undetectable reality that is eternal and accounts for all particulars in the universe.

You misunderstand what this equation implies. It implies that the universe itself is foundational. It is in no need of a foundation because it stands alone. If a god of some kind were to exist, that God would be just another thing IN the universe. She would not stand apart from it.
Re: The day the sun danced in the sky.
February 15, 2015 02:01AM
Perhaps they saw an alien craft. But that probably doesn't explain the supposed prophesies the girls were given, which sound like they were written by Catholics. Maybe it was a combination of the two.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/15/2015 02:04AM by Hornswoggle.
Re: The day the sun danced in the sky.
February 15, 2015 02:03AM
Quote
tuk22
That you are waiting for a scientific proof that God does not exist is silly Dick

That you have to remove your god from physical reality and disavow any interaction between her and us (re: humanity) to save her is to count the number of angels that can dance on a pinhead.
Re: The day the sun danced in the sky.
February 15, 2015 02:04AM
No Dick you are assuming God and the universe as separate entities. Seriously there is no theory, experimental or theoretical that conflicts with Theology.
Re: The day the sun danced in the sky.
February 15, 2015 02:12AM
You are so invested in religious concepts. Theology includes both natural theology and what religionists call 'revealed' theology
Re: The day the sun danced in the sky.
February 15, 2015 02:15AM
It seems as if we all agree that thousands of people can be entirely mistaken about what they sincerely believe they saw. Anyone disagree with this?

Good stuff, Indy. I agree that there are lots of much more probable explanations, both physical and psychological, for the event than something so improbable as it's being caused by a being or beings that we don't even know with high probability exist.
Re: The day the sun danced in the sky.
February 15, 2015 02:23AM
Quote
tuk22
No Dick you are assuming God and the universe as separate entities. Seriously there is no theory, experimental or theoretical that conflicts with Theology.

You've said this before and it's still trivial. There are many, many fictitious concepts and beings which are perfectly consistent with all physical law. This, however, is not the slightest evidence that those concepts are true or that those beings exist.

This is the reason that coherency is necessary but not sufficient for truth.
Re: The day the sun danced in the sky.
February 15, 2015 02:34AM
You misunderstand what this equation implies. It implies that the universe itself is foundational. It is in no need of a foundation because it stands alone. If a god of some kind were to exist, that God would be just another thing IN the universe. She would not stand apart from it.

No it suggests a hypothetical reality that is named a graviton is an elementary particle. IOW an undetectable eternal being (ontological being people) is the foundation of the universe.

What did I say was the simplest metaphysical explanation to account for all reality?

Shouldn't we be listening more to tuk? Lol
Re: The day the sun danced in the sky.
February 15, 2015 02:38AM
Again if metaphysics is trivial be consistent and stop claiming we live in a world absent of God
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