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The day the sun danced in the sky.

Posted by Dick 
Re: The day the sun danced in the sky.
February 19, 2015 06:43PM
Quote
Sam
What makes it so difficult for you to discern what is most likely true or most likely false?

A complete and total lack of evidence?
Re: The day the sun danced in the sky.
February 19, 2015 07:33PM
You're confusing belief and rational belief. Those are not the same thing.

A simple belief is merely a cognitive acceptance that a proposition is probably true or probably false. This belief has nothing to do with rational belief much less with knowledge. One needs extremely little information about propositions before such beliefs form (and form without our conscious awareness of their being formed). Simple beliefs such as these are formed based on hunch, emotion, intuition, peer pressure, personal bias, psychological baggage, prior knowledge of the subject, etc.

It's ridiculous to even suggest that virtually anyone in this country, one of the most religious countries on Earth, has not formed a subconscious belief about the existence or nonexistence of God because he does not have enough information on the subject. Please. Practically everyone in the US either believes or disbelieves that God exists at a simple cognitive belief level whether or not he chooses to publicly voice his belief.

Forming a rational belief on the matter, OTOH, is always a conscious, largely non-intuitive exercise.

You may not have a rational belief about the existence or nonexistence of God, but you have a belief. If you're too embarrassed or too confused to state what you believe, well, that's a different issue.

It's true that you may not have even a simple belief on subjects about which you are wholly ignorant (although ignorance, as we all know, isn't a necessary barrier to belief) and you may not have even a simple belief on subjects on which the available evidence truly is just about 50-50 (for example, is there an even or odd number of fish in the Pacific?); but the question of God's existence doesn't fall into either one of those categories. To try to artificially force it into one of them says more about your emotions and psychological state in voicing your belief about the existence of God than it says about the actual state of the evidence and argument on the subject.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/19/2015 07:56PM by Dick.
Re: The day the sun danced in the sky.
February 19, 2015 08:03PM
Quote
Sam Wrote:
Perhaps you agnostics just don't have the skills or confidence in your skills to make good judgments? You seem to think we need to know a number to figure what's more likely than not to be true or false. We don't. We just need enough info that determines one claim is more likely than another. It's not rocket science, just science.

You answered your own question Sam, but probably didn't realize it when you said "We just need enough info that determines one claim is more likely than another. It's not rocket science, just science." And when the likelihood of a claim, hypotheses, theory, etc, is underdetermined, that is, when the information available at a specific time is insufficient to determine what one should believe, as I've been saying, we agnostics "withhold our judgment".

Here's an example, I'm going to give you some info and you tell me what you believe is the most likely outcome. We have an empty 55 gal drum. we have a basket that is filled with 30 lbs of lemons and limes. We put the entire 30 lb content of the basket into the barrel (all the lemons and limes). We blindfold you and tell you to pick one fruit out of the barrel. Which piece of fruit do you believe you will pick out of the barrel, a lemon or a lime?
Re: The day the sun danced in the sky.
February 19, 2015 08:39PM
Who'd have guessed that simple BELIEF -- not knowledge, not rational belief, not judgment -- would be an impossible concept for crypto-theists to comprehend?
Re: The day the sun danced in the sky.
February 19, 2015 08:41PM
Everyone understands what a belief is. Not everyone agrees that it is mandatory to form one.
Re: The day the sun danced in the sky.
February 19, 2015 08:55PM
Here's another scenario for you, Sam, and perhaps a more relevant one. I'm going to give you some info and you tell me what you believe is the most likely outcome. We have a closed curtain behind which 30 beings are each seated in a chair, numbered 1-30. Each of the beings is either a god or a human. I ask the being sitting in chair #7 to please come out from behind the curtain.

When the being emerges from behind the curtain, which do you believe you'll see: a human or a god?
Re: The day the sun danced in the sky.
February 19, 2015 08:58PM
Quote
TheThorn
Everyone understands what a belief is. Not everyone agrees that it is mandatory to form one.

Apparently you don't know what a simple belief is if you think you get to consciously choose whether or not to form one.
Sam
Re: The day the sun danced in the sky.
February 19, 2015 09:00PM
Isle, Again with the fruit, lol. How about this? You tell me the difference between a godthing and a fairy and why I should believe one doesn't exist but not the other. Nevermind. I don't think you nonjudging judges are even capable much less willing to answer that even for yourselves. No evidence for a thing's existence is evidence enough for me to judge godthings probably do not exist. I don't need certainty as maybe you do. Not even close. A simple tip of the scale is enough for me to come down on one side or the other and it's NOT like fruit. We are NOT arguing if a godthing or a fairy exists because it has to be one or the other as in your example. It's does this one thing exist or not. That is a vastly different question. Your way with fruit examples would only work if you invented a fruit that has no discernible characteristics and asked me if I believe it exists or not. I'd have to say not. Wouldn't you?
Re: The day the sun danced in the sky.
February 19, 2015 09:25PM
Quote
Dick
Quote
TheThorn
Everyone understands what a belief is. Not everyone agrees that it is mandatory to form one.

Apparently you don't know what a simple belief is if you think you get to consciously choose whether or not to form one.

When did I say that?
Re: The day the sun danced in the sky.
February 20, 2015 12:19AM
You implied this when you said that not everyone agrees that it's mandatory to form one.

So let me just ask you directly then, do you think that simple belief arises in the mind pretty much automatically, without conscious effort on our part?
Re: The day the sun danced in the sky.
February 20, 2015 01:37AM
Quote
Dick
You implied this when you said that not everyone agrees that it's mandatory to form one.

So let me just ask you directly then, do you think that simple belief arises in the mind pretty much automatically, without conscious effort on our part?

Our imaginations operate automatically.

It's important to recognise what is an idea and what is something worthy of beleiving.
Re: The day the sun danced in the sky.
February 20, 2015 08:58AM
Quote
TheThorn
Quote
Dick
You implied this when you said that not everyone agrees that it's mandatory to form one.

So let me just ask you directly then, do you think that simple belief arises in the mind pretty much automatically, without conscious effort on our part?

Our imaginations operate automatically.

It's important to recognise what is an idea and what is something worthy of beleiving.

Ah, so you believe that people have a choice in what they believe?
Re: The day the sun danced in the sky.
February 20, 2015 02:38PM
Quote
Dick
Quote
TheThorn
Quote
Dick
You implied this when you said that not everyone agrees that it's mandatory to form one.

So let me just ask you directly then, do you think that simple belief arises in the mind pretty much automatically, without conscious effort on our part?

Our imaginations operate automatically.

It's important to recognise what is an idea and what is something worthy of beleiving.

Ah, so you believe that people have a choice in what they believe?

No, I just clearly have a different definition of belief to you. You seem to be suggesting that any idea that pops into your head is a belief?
Re: The day the sun danced in the sky.
February 20, 2015 05:10PM
Simple belief? Never heard of the term...

I know basic beliefs that are axiomatic ie foundational. And there is rational and faith based beliefs.

The skeptical rational mind will always come to a conclusion on what to believe through careful consideration. As an agnostic I believe there is no evidence to form a rational belief towards the existence or nonexistence of God.
Re: The day the sun danced in the sky.
February 20, 2015 05:45PM
My belief about god's absence from this world requires no more faith than does my belief about global warming's presence -- even less, in fact.

Must be one of those knee-jerk simple beliefs you were talking about...
Sam
Re: The day the sun danced in the sky.
February 20, 2015 07:38PM
Beliefs in godthings are not different than beliefs in fairies. I did not choose to believe fairies are fake. I did not choose to believe godthings are fake. I DO think agnogs have chosen to ignore their beliefs, however. They have chosen cognitive dissonance as their status quo. Deny every little whisper of leaning one way or the other off the fence else godthings forbid? they should fall down on one side or the other with the sheep, lol.
Re: The day the sun danced in the sky.
February 20, 2015 07:54PM
Beliefs in godthings are not different than beliefs in fairies.

Right besides the fact they are wholly different concepts and your refusal to listen to what everybody has been telling you for years now... Same silly arguments day after day... It's politics you are promoting... You are selling a lifestyle. No different than UFO conspiracy theorists.

Or you're an idiot. Your choice...
Sam
Re: The day the sun danced in the sky.
February 20, 2015 08:31PM
I am to you what you imagine me to be. I don't promote a certain lifestyle or politic unless that's what you call science and psychology. Sorry it doesn't fit into your godthings BigPlan. How are godthings and fairies any different. A giant purposeful Fairy could be an eternal foundational being and it put me here just to piss you off, lol. Take your frustrations to the StudyofReligion Board where you will feel more at home.
Re: The day the sun danced in the sky.
February 20, 2015 08:55PM
Yeah your own totally messed up version of psychology...

How are godthings and fairies any different.

That's not a real question. You know how I know? You have asked me that question at least 20 times... You can't be that stupid...
Sam
Re: The day the sun danced in the sky.
February 20, 2015 09:41PM
You have never adequately answered. You don't get to make @#$%& up in order to do it. You can't start with the assumption of a godthing of any kind and look for evidence/no evidence after. There has to be evidence of something first then it's traced back to the Thing that explains it. At least that's how my stupid brain works.
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