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The day the sun danced in the sky.

Posted by Dick 
Re: The day the sun danced in the sky.
February 18, 2015 02:28AM
Religion? You just can't shake it can you?
Re: The day the sun danced in the sky.
February 18, 2015 02:31AM
tuk, Your belief that a godthing or God as you like to put it is a simpler explanation than nogod blows me away and makes it impossible for me to think of anything but your blindness.

Being = something as opposed to no thing... Follow?

Eternal = no beginning, no end...

An eternal being = something that has always existed...

Can I continue?
Sam
Re: The day the sun danced in the sky.
February 18, 2015 02:40AM
"Religion? You just can't shake it can you?"

You are the one insisting a godthing must be considered as an explanation. A very superstitious (religious) position.

"Can I continue?"

I'm sure you can but I'm not sure what it will accomplish. There's no reason to consider an eternal being could exist in this day and age when we have explanations close enough to complete that we can say we know certain things no one could even imagine back when they invented godthings.
Re: The day the sun danced in the sky.
February 18, 2015 02:48AM
For fuksake you didn't even read the definitions.... Hopeless
Re: The day the sun danced in the sky.
February 18, 2015 02:52AM
Well they know everything, tuk. You're just supposed to pay attention.
Re: The day the sun danced in the sky.
February 18, 2015 02:55AM
Quote
tuk22
Religion? You just can't shake it can you?

I'm talking about religions only so far as their history of proposing various definitions of God goes. There is no more evidence (we are talking about justified belief here, correct?) that any of those gods actually exist than there is that your own "foundational god" exists.
Re: The day the sun danced in the sky.
February 18, 2015 02:59AM
Quote
Hornswoggle
Well they know everything, tuk. You're just supposed to pay attention.

Thank you for the enlightening comment. That really helps advance everyone's understanding of the topic under discussion. Really. Thank you.
Sam
Re: The day the sun danced in the sky.
February 18, 2015 03:01AM
Tossing some undefined godthing into an equation where it is not necessary is not K.I.S.S. It's religion.
Re: The day the sun danced in the sky.
February 18, 2015 03:05AM
Dick,

Again, there is no evidence for metaphysical foundations. That is why it's nonsense to suggest it's improbable that God does not exist, because that implies you have evidence that we live in a world absent of God. You can't possibly know this. Yes, probability, real probability is knowledge.

Are you two now willing to admit your atheism is a faith?
Re: The day the sun danced in the sky.
February 18, 2015 03:05AM
Thank you for the enlightening comment. That really helps advance everyone's understanding of the topic under discussion. Really. Thank you. - Dick

I think it's at least as good as anything you've posted here. Mine took far less keystrokes, though.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/18/2015 03:06AM by Hornswoggle.
Re: The day the sun danced in the sky.
February 18, 2015 03:07AM
It's metaphysics, and I'm sorry but you are too dumb to realize you have one
Re: The day the sun danced in the sky.
February 18, 2015 03:10AM
Tuk22 wrote: Being = something as opposed to no thing... Follow? 

What "no thing"? This is simple: Being has always been. It appears now that everything that is here today has always been here. There was no beginning, no "foundational being", at least we have no good reason to believe so.

Tuk wrote: Eternal = no beginning, no end... 

You've just described a characteristic of the universe.

Tuk wrote: An eternal being = something that has always existed... 

The only thing we have reason to believe has always existed are the things, in their fundamental essence, that we observe around us and other things in the universe.
Re: The day the sun danced in the sky.
February 18, 2015 03:29AM
Everything that is here today has always been? No, not necessarily and I'm pretty sure our observations prove that wrong. If you add 'in some way, shape, or form' then you would be correct, but that would not imply naturalism is true or God isn't foundational.

We assume naturalism is true so science is meaningful, but metaphysics isn't science and naturalism certainly isn't a precondition of metaphysics.

Isn't it obvious to you that the belief we live in a world absent of God is only rational is there is scientific proof we live in a world absent of God? It should be...
Sam
Re: The day the sun danced in the sky.
February 18, 2015 03:42AM
Dick, Exactly. Before science someone made up the gods which evolved into God then into godthings. There is and never was a basis for seriously considering any of those "eternal foundational beings" could exist much less did or do.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/18/2015 03:44AM by Sam.
Re: The day the sun danced in the sky.
February 18, 2015 03:46AM
Please you are not arguing Sam you are cheerleading irrelevant atheistic nonsense...
Re: The day the sun danced in the sky.
February 18, 2015 03:48AM
Quote
tuk22
Dick,

Again, there is no evidence for metaphysical foundations. That is why it's nonsense to suggest it's improbable that God does not exist, because that implies you have evidence that we live in a world absent of God. You can't possibly know this. Yes, probability, real probability is knowledge.

I agree completely with Sam. There are many reasons to believe that the world in which we abide is without God.

Of course it's possible that a possibly existing god, even a god that is the foundation for being, exists in some world. No one that I know denies that. I know that you, like me, also know that it's just as possible that in some world the earth rests on the back of a tortoise. No one denies any of that. Whatever isn't a logical contradiction can exist in some world, right?

The question we want an answer to, however, is not what can exist in other possible worlds, but rather what exists in THIS world, in the world in which we find ourselves, and that means evidence. If there is no evidence for the existence of an entity in THIS world then there is no good reason to believe that that entity -- whether it's the ether or a tachyon or a god -- exists.

To answer this question -- the question: Does God exist in THIS world -- metaphysics is right next to useless. As you yourself point out, metaphysics deals with the possible, the impossible, and the necessary. So unless your aim is to prove, somehow, that God's existence is necessary (and much good luck with that) metaphysics and possible worlds theory really don't add much to a conversation that already concedes the possible existence of a possibly existing god.

No one is saying God cannot exist. We're only saying that God doesn't exist in THIS world as far as there is reason to believe.
Re: The day the sun danced in the sky.
February 18, 2015 04:03AM
Of course it's possible that a possibly existing god, even a god that is the foundation for being, exists in some world. No one that I know denies that. I know that you, like me, also know that it's just as possible that in some world the earth rests on the back of a tortoise. No one denies any of that. Whatever isn't a logical contradiction can exist in some world, right?

Why did you specify the 'something' as a tortoise? Was that necessary or simple? Why did you further assume that? I'm conceiving of the simplest metaphysical concept and here you are talking about turtles.

The question we want an answer to, however, is not what can exist in other possible worlds, but rather what exists in THIS world, in the world in which we find ourselves, and that means evidence. If there is no evidence for the existence of an entity in THIS world then there is no good reason to believe...

Ahh you referenced a turtle so you could once again deliver this canned response.

Seriously if metaphysics is meaningless to you STOP making metaphysical claims.

No one is saying God cannot exist. We're only saying that God doesn't exist in THIS world as far as there is reason to believe.

Like this... Please know you are contradicting yourself...
Re: The day the sun danced in the sky.
February 18, 2015 04:22AM
Why do you insist that the claim, "There appears to be no good reason to believe that a god exists in this world" is a metaphysical claim?

I mean, clearly, provably even, it's not a metaphysical claim. It's obviously an epistemic claim. The claim deals with belief and reasons for (or lack of reasons) for belief and those are epistemic subjects.

You can stamp your feet and scream "METAPHYSICAL! METAPHYSICAL! METAPHYSICAL!" until you're blue in the face but it won't change the nature of that claim from epistemological to metaphysical.
Re: The day the sun danced in the sky.
February 18, 2015 04:27AM
Dick wrote: No one is saying God cannot exist. We're only saying that God doesn't exist in THIS world as far as there is reason to believe. 

Tuk wrote: Please know you are contradicting yourself...

Dick writes: Please explicitly point out the contradiction because it is far from obvious to me.
Re: The day the sun danced in the sky.
February 18, 2015 04:34AM
Sure my patience isn't wearing thin at all...

Do we live in a world absent of God?

If yes, prove it. Prove that there is no eternal foundation that accounts for all reality...

If you don't know welcome to agnosticism
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