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The day the sun danced in the sky.

Posted by Dick 
Re: The day the sun danced in the sky.
February 17, 2015 11:43PM
Sam, maybe we should ask for "evidence" that had a prayer of seeing the light of day in a real trial; "evidence" that wouldn't be laughed out of court in a pre-trial hearing on evidence.
Sam
Re: The day the sun danced in the sky.
February 17, 2015 11:55PM
Except that a court would accept eyewitness accounts when you've taught me that I cannot even trust my own eyes, lol, so I'd never trust the eyes of anyone who is already indoctrinated to believe certain things to be offering reliable evidence.
Re: The day the sun danced in the sky.
February 18, 2015 12:01AM
When the skeptical mind exhausts all options; seeing is believing.
Re: The day the sun danced in the sky.
February 18, 2015 12:07AM
Nope. Court's refuse the admittance of eyewitness testimony regularly. I would love to see someone say, "Well, Your Honor, first of all the Sun started hurtling right toward the Earth when suddenly it stopped and begin to spin round and round like a gigantic pinwheel! It was at least twice it's normal size and was changing color, too! It was red then violet then blue . . . " and try to get that into court.

Generally speaking, courts frown on admitting supernatural claims as evidence for the same reason Hume considered miracles unlikely.
Re: The day the sun danced in the sky.
February 18, 2015 12:14AM
Not courts. SAMs strange UFO experience
Re: The day the sun danced in the sky.
February 18, 2015 12:30AM
Tuk wrote: [God is] . . . an eternal foundational being that accounts for the universe. . . .

So if in a couple of years science, on the basis of the new equation we've discussed and perhaps other evidence, consensually and generally accepts the thesis that the universe itself is eternal, will you, provisionally of course, believe that the universe is in need of no foundational being to account for its existence?

If not, then how is your claim falsifiable?
Sam
Re: The day the sun danced in the sky.
February 18, 2015 12:44AM
Agree, Dick, that courts frown on supernaturally based testimony. I thought you were talking in general. All I meant was that eyewitness testimony, while it may be admissible, is not always reliable evidence for anything.
Re: The day the sun danced in the sky.
February 18, 2015 12:50AM
True. Got to go with what's most plausible even though we both know that what is most plausible isn't always equal to reality. It is only what we should believe is reality if we want to give ourselves the best shot at getting reality right.
Sam
Re: The day the sun danced in the sky.
February 18, 2015 01:17AM
Yes. We should believe what's true and if we don't or can't know what's true, believe what's most likely true, true being what conforms to reality. "Living in a world absent of God" is a scary fukking statement to hear knowing people are that scripted but also the simplest explanation for the existence of everything. No need to toss in godthings to fuzzify the picture. I think it's silly to spend any time contemplating godthings tho I do spend a fair amount of time trying to figure out the "agnostic" "position" in the "debating" community, lol.

One thing I've noticed in all these years is that when couples get together their beliefs tend to meld a bit. I've seen my brother go from southern baptist church camp growing up to Catholic like his wife from Brazil but refuses to talk about religion and loves me no less for my militancy but unfriended me on facebook, lol. My other brother went from staunch atheist with very Xian wife to second very Xian wife and now id's as agnostic arguing endlessly how much we cannot know blahblahblah, lol. Before my sister died she had "multiple personalities" from churchy bible thumper to militant atheist. My hubs grew up Catholic and he knew I was atheist from day one you can be sure. In the past 30 years I've become more militant and he's turned against Catholicism and won't even say he's a Xian anymore (even tho I think he still is one) but will yell from the glorious mountain that God is Real! Multiply this diversity by a million and we have the internet family of those of us seemingly obsessed with this subject. Do you and your wife talk about religion, godthings, etc.?
Re: The day the sun danced in the sky.
February 18, 2015 01:21AM
We used to but she died about a year ago. I believe I posted about that at a time when you were taking a break from the board.
Re: The day the sun danced in the sky.
February 18, 2015 01:25AM
I already told you this... If the theory is correct the univers is eternal because of a theoretical elementary particle ie a foundational being or undetectable something... It doesn't prove materialism is true or God isn't metaphysically necessary.

I'm baffled by your insistence that this new pet theory of yours argues for atheism. As if the Big Bang argues for theism. Theology is not incompatible with any scientific theory. Yes, that would include your new pet theory
Sam
Re: The day the sun danced in the sky.
February 18, 2015 01:30AM
Oh, I'm so sorry to hear that, Dick. So sorry. What was her view on all this?
Re: The day the sun danced in the sky.
February 18, 2015 01:35AM
Ditto on the 'we should believe what seems most likely to be true' thing.

Too bad it's so damned hard to do sometimes because of our evolutionary path. Damned reptilian mid-brain! I wish it were more ingrained in our species to just go with the most plausible rather than allow ages old nightmares that really have nothing to do with us anymore continue to influence our thought.

Still, maybe in another hundred thousand years or so, who knows? Of course that would depend on making the ( completely ludicrous, IMO) assumption that our species has another hundred thousand years left.

So, nevermind.
Re: The day the sun danced in the sky.
February 18, 2015 01:46AM
She was a devout Christian who somehow modified her belief about heaven (with scriptural justification, no less!) in such a way that meant I an atheist would get in, too!

God, I loved that woman.
Re: The day the sun danced in the sky.
February 18, 2015 01:52AM
Interesting. Did you ever let her read your posts?
Sam
Re: The day the sun danced in the sky.
February 18, 2015 01:53AM
Tuk, Why can't you see how you are not simplifying things to add a godthing to the equation but instead complicating it. You seem to be insisting that we start with the premise of a god and go from there. I can almost here your foot stomping. There is no reason to even consider a godthing exists. Everyone knows God was made up then smart people started talking about it and never stopped. And many serious thinkers started with the premise of an existent god, some even TheOneTrueGod. I think you're in there with those guys but from my pov because of the science we now have looks a lot like rationalization for your own deep seated belief in TheAlmighty. It's obvious.
Re: The day the sun danced in the sky.
February 18, 2015 02:07AM
Quote
tuk22
Interesting. Did you ever let her read your posts?

What would have been the point? We talked about everything that I've expressed in these forums (and more).
Re: The day the sun danced in the sky.
February 18, 2015 02:12AM
The only thing that is obvious is that you refuse to engage me and avoid critically examining your own beliefs Sam. If you did you would realize they are not justified.
Re: The day the sun danced in the sky.
February 18, 2015 02:21AM
Jesus, tuk, make up your mind! Do you want to talk metaphysics or epistemology? "Justified beliefs" falls under the umbrella of epistemology. What in particular do you find to be unjustified about the belief that it's unlikely any god proposed by any religion to date is instantiated in reality?
Sam
Re: The day the sun danced in the sky.
February 18, 2015 02:25AM
tuk, Your belief that a godthing or God as you like to put it is a simpler explanation than nogod blows me away and makes it impossible for me to think of anything but your blindness. I don't care if you've learned some great rationalization that team agnostic supports. It just doesn't make sense to me. As you also must believe, maybe it's just beyond my capacity to understand but I don't think so. I think you think superstition is valuable so you are arguing on behalf of those poor folks who need to believe in something warm and fuzzzzzy like that and maybe just maybe you, too, cling to that hope a tiny little bit?
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