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Re: Empathy - An Old Fashioned Notion Whose Time Has Passed?
February 16, 2015 07:44AM
Curt - I would say I feel your pain for blowing your argument out of the water - but you don't believe in empathy. smiling smiley
Re: Empathy - An Old Fashioned Notion Whose Time Has Passed?
February 16, 2015 07:59AM
No Curt I compared your comment:

Quote
Only the drug addled and the self-deluded believe they are being "empathetic".

To a comment you'd expect from a Nazi.




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"Build yourselves a wall of ships!" said the Oracle!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/16/2015 08:08AM by Kairos.
Re: Empathy - An Old Fashioned Notion Whose Time Has Passed?
February 16, 2015 05:44PM
If the idea wasn't valid - we wouldn't have a word for it, Curt.[b/]

Anselm would be proud, Indy.
Re: Empathy - An Old Fashioned Notion Whose Time Has Passed?
February 16, 2015 07:28PM
Quote
tuk22
If the idea wasn't valid - we wouldn't have a word for it, Curt.[b/]

Anselm would be proud, Indy.


Oh snap!
Re: Empathy - An Old Fashioned Notion Whose Time Has Passed?
February 16, 2015 09:25PM
Now I will explain the scientific logic behind my statement that the drug addled Curt failed to grasp.

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

"MDMA enhances emotional empathy and prosocial behavior."

© The Author (2013). Published by Oxford University Press

Note the word 'enhances.'

"We investigated the acute effects of MDMA using the Multifaceted Empathy Test (MET), dynamic Face Emotion Recognition Task (FERT) and Social Value Orientation (SVO) test. We "

There are actually tests designed to measure empathy scientifically. Note the parallels to the Voight Kampff test.

"MDMA enhanced explicit and implicit emotional empathy in the MET and increased prosocial behavior in the SVO test in men."

As I am scientifically minded unlike the drug addled Curt the answer is obvious. Since all MDMA does is increase the amount of serotonin and norepinephrine levels in the brain it is not creating an illusion of empathy, it is merely enhancing already present empathic abilities which operate using the neurotransmitters serotonin and norepinephrine, making these abilities already built into humans so obvious that even Curt couldn't miss their existence.

Due to the effects on dynamic face emotion and Social Value Orientation I would suggest that this part of the brain involves the Broca's area of the brain and Wernicke's area of the brain which exists in both humans and has homologue forms amongst chimpanzees and is associated with facial expressions and language (chimpanzees/bonobos can understand sign language, because it's tied in with their ability to read hand movements and facial signals in this part of the brain). Also that it involves heavily the mirror neurons of the brain, which this area ties in, and explains the theory of mind necessary for empathic understanding and empathic abilities which benefit primate social organization. Bonobos are better known for their empathic characteristics, but it's reasonable that chimpanzees also have a level of this characteristic.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Build yourselves a wall of ships!" said the Oracle!



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 02/17/2015 02:51AM by Kairos.
Re: Empathy - An Old Fashioned Notion Whose Time Has Passed?
February 16, 2015 09:30PM
Curt, so what's the bottom line here? Because you don't feel empathy, you want to make a case that there's no such thing?

.
Re: Empathy - An Old Fashioned Notion Whose Time Has Passed?
February 16, 2015 09:57PM
"Fostering leadership, learning and empathy between cultures was and remains the purpose of the international scholarship program."

-------- Senator J. William Fulbright (describing the Fulbright Scholarship at Saint Anselm College)

[www.anselm.edu]



smiling smiley
Re: Empathy - An Old Fashioned Notion Whose Time Has Passed?
February 16, 2015 10:42PM
Kairos,
Your whole-hearted endorsement of the drug ecstasy is duly noted. Other drugs give the users the sense of having enhanced capabilities. LSD gives the user an enhanced sense of enlightenment, another dubious claim. Same for marijuana. Write down what seems like your brilliant ideas and insights next time you are stoned--they will seem pretty banal when you are straight again.

Ponderer,
Yes. But it's not just me, it's true that it's not possible or knowable for anybody. You could ask me a similar question about clairvoyance or astral projection, and I'd give you a similar response. As your better half pointed out, it's a semantic issue. Most people don't know the difference between the definitions of empathy and sympathy.

Quote

Both empathy and sympathy are feelings concerning other people. Sympathy is literally 'feeling with' - compassion for or commiseration with another person. Empathy, by contrast, is literally 'feeling into' - the ability to project one's personality into another person and more fully understand that person. Sympathy derives from Latin and Greek words meaning 'having a fellow feeling'. The term empathy originated in psychology (translation of a German term, c. 1903) and has now come to mean the ability to imagine or project oneself into another person's position and experience all the sensations involved in that position. [dictionary.reference.com]

We all have the ability to be compassionate or commiserate with others (albeit some don't exercise that ability). That's sympathy. But I sincerely doubt that you or anyone else has "the ability to imagine or project oneself into another person's position and experience all the sensations involved in that position". That's "psychic ability" bunk.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/16/2015 10:56PM by Curt Anderson.
Re: Empathy - An Old Fashioned Notion Whose Time Has Passed?
February 16, 2015 10:55PM
I gave you the perfect example, Curt. I felt empathy for Kobe - I did not feel sympathy for him. And you belittling the circumstances actually adds more credence to the point. By making light of my example it proves we can sympathize (or empathize) over even the most superfluous and inconsequential events as well as the most dire situations.
Re: Empathy - An Old Fashioned Notion Whose Time Has Passed?
February 16, 2015 11:05PM
Quote
Indy!
I gave you the perfect example, Curt. I felt empathy for Kobe - I did not feel sympathy for him. And you belittling the circumstances actually adds more credence to the point. By making light of my example it proves we can sympathize (or empathize) over even the most superfluous and inconsequential events as well as the most dire situations.

You have come up with rather warped and unique definitions of empathy and sympathy. I doubt that Ponderer, Kairos, or anybody else would agree with your examples of what you think that those words mean. I also very much doubt that they would say it's possible to empathize but not sympathize with someone, as you just said about you and Kobe Bryant.
Re: Empathy - An Old Fashioned Notion Whose Time Has Passed?
February 17, 2015 12:20AM
So what you're saying is you have no defense of your position - you're just hoping Pondy, Kairos or someone else will rush to your defense to help out.

We'll wait and see. spinning smiley sticking its tongue out
Re: Empathy - An Old Fashioned Notion Whose Time Has Passed?
February 17, 2015 12:26AM
Quote
Indy!
So what you're saying is you have no defense of your position - you're just hoping Pondy, Kairos or someone else will rush to your defense to help out.

We'll wait and see. spinning smiley sticking its tongue out

Not at all. I expect them to be silent. Ostensibly, Ponderer, Kairos and you are all on the same side of this issue. I predict that you won't get any agreement from them or anyone else of YOUR definitions of empathy and sympathy.
Sam
Re: Empathy - An Old Fashioned Notion Whose Time Has Passed?
February 17, 2015 01:06AM
I think Indy gave the perfect example of the difference and how it's easy to have one and not the other. I also think it's easy to put yourself in another's shoes and know how they feel because there are only so many human emotions and we all feel them similarly under similar conditions or in similar situations. Almost everyone knows what it feels like to lose a loved one, etc. etc.
Re: Empathy - An Old Fashioned Notion Whose Time Has Passed?
February 17, 2015 01:20AM
Thank you for your honesty and stepping up in my defense, Sam. Much appreciated. smiling smiley

Speaking of honesty - I think Curt is just playing a little game here. It's pretty easy to see a difference between the two emotions imho.
Sam
Re: Empathy - An Old Fashioned Notion Whose Time Has Passed?
February 17, 2015 01:44AM
When you're right, you're right.
Re: Empathy - An Old Fashioned Notion Whose Time Has Passed?
February 17, 2015 01:57AM
I agree with Indy's examples.


"Your whole-hearted endorsement of the drug ecstasy is duly noted."

"Other drugs give the users the sense of having enhanced capabilities. LSD gives the user an enhanced sense of enlightenment,"

Source?

"another dubious claim."

Since you're the one making it and without a source.


"Same for marijuana. Write down what seems like your brilliant ideas and insights next time you are stoned--they will seem pretty banal when you are straight again. "

Carl Sagan was a regular cannabis smoker so you fail again.

And I've written many interesting ideas down while stoned and they were just as interesting when I came back to the notes and used them later. Writing though is not something I usually do stoned. Rather the thoughts and insights I recall later and have written down thoughts which have been described as beautiful simply recalling exactly my thoughts and insights when I was stoned. The aesthetic appreciation and it's inspiration in a river valley for example was and appreciation of music I can definitely say have been significantly enhanced by smoking cannabis. That cannabis enhances musical appreciation is obvious to all except those with blindfolds.

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"Build yourselves a wall of ships!" said the Oracle!
Re: Empathy - An Old Fashioned Notion Whose Time Has Passed?
February 17, 2015 02:04AM
Sam,
So you think a person can be empathetic about somebody's misfortune but NOT sympathetic. Seriously? Without referencing the NBA finals, I'd like to hear another example.

Anyway, what you were describing (loss of a loved one, etc.) matches the definition of sympathy, not empathy. Honestly if my child died, I'd rather hear the sympathetic "I am so sorry for your loss" than the empathetic "I feel as badly about this as you do". The latter would get a "shut the F up!" from me.
Re: Empathy - An Old Fashioned Notion Whose Time Has Passed?
February 17, 2015 02:08AM
Quote
Kairos
I agree with Indy's examples.

And I've written many interesting ideas down while stoned and they were just as interesting when I came back to the notes and used them later.

As for the first point, what I just asked of Sam goes for you too.

As for your "interesting ideas", let's see just one.
Re: Empathy - An Old Fashioned Notion Whose Time Has Passed?
February 17, 2015 02:10AM
If you could be sympathetic about someone, but not empathetic why couldn't you be empathetic but not sympathetic about someone?

I'll give you an example of how this can work. A person is operating a switch to electrocute a hardened criminal. The person does not sympathize with the criminal, because they consider that the criminal deserved it, but as the person is being electrocuted they empathize their pain.

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"Build yourselves a wall of ships!" said the Oracle!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/17/2015 02:13AM by Kairos.
Re: Empathy - An Old Fashioned Notion Whose Time Has Passed?
February 17, 2015 02:17AM
Quote
Kairos
If you could be sympathetic about someone, but not empathetic why couldn't you be empathetic but not sympathetic about someone?

Because empathetic is defined as a step beyond sympathy. It's like saying that a person cried but did not frown; of they laughed but didn't smile. But the reverse could be true. You can frown and not cry or smile and not laugh.
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