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Anybody want to talk about how all this got here?

Posted by Dick 
Sam
Re: Anybody want to talk about how all this got here?
February 13, 2015 10:57PM
If someone asked me "why are we here?" I'd just say "why not?" but no one has ever asked me that nor do I ever wonder about it. You believers in godthings and potential godthings love to question whywhywhy but to me the interesting question is how, as in the title of this thread. How is the stuff of science and reason. Why is the stuff of emotionality and godthings. Talk about making shiit up, lol.
Re: Anybody want to talk about how all this got here?
February 13, 2015 11:07PM
Now I think you are getting it. I know there are no gods in exactly the same way you know there are no fairies. Unless you don't know fairies don't exist in which case you can keep believing they do if that makes you happy.

No, you don't know that and we have been telling you that now for years.

It's obvious we know fairies don't exist. Why is your metaphysic so obvious to you? It can't possibly be that obvious to you. You have no evidence, your arguments are weak...
Re: Anybody want to talk about how all this got here?
February 13, 2015 11:25PM
Quote
tuk22
I'll stand with you Sam when irrational beliefs cause harm.

I'm not certain what you mean by this, but I'm going to comment anyway.

Some people who say what you just wrote mean something like beliefs don't cause anything to happen, only actions do. And that to me is such a superficial trivial thing to say.

In fact, belief and instinct cause everything important to happen. Belief is nothing more than the way you take the world to be.

As long as you believe the air is non-poisonous and relatively healthy then you'll think nothing about taking your next breath. But if you for some reason believe that a lethal gas is beginning to fill the air near you, you will fight like hell to get out of that place. And it's all because of belief.

Sincere belief is what compels us to act.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/13/2015 11:26PM by Dick.
Sam
Re: Anybody want to talk about how all this got here?
February 13, 2015 11:25PM
Because you say, lmao, right. No one sensible has told me I don't know what I know. I don't have a pet metaphysic like you do (whatever that is). It's simple, tuk. Just don't believe things are real unless there is a reason to do so. To me, it's just as obvious there are no godthings as that there are no fairies. You are delusional if you don't see the sameness in those claims. Bet you even slip sometimes and call your godthing a He, don't you? lol Do you know if there are fairies on Jupiter or not? Is the answer obvious? How about in another galaxy farfaraway? Am I irrational because I know there are no fairies anywhere in the universe? Do you believe there could be fairies on Jupiter? lol

Just imagine if no one ever made up the idea of a god in the first place. There would be no theism and no atheism (which just arose to combat the magical thinking and superstition that came with the godthing.)
Re: Anybody want to talk about how all this got here?
February 13, 2015 11:37PM
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Dick
Indy wrote: Now - to address one of your points... True some people believe god (lower case) exists and do horrible things because of that belief. OTOH, there are also those who believe a god doesn't exist and therefore feel they are free to do horrible things as well based on that belief. My comment didn't reflect or reference either aspect of that idea, but since you've brought it up - I would not endorse either belief or action.

And to those people (the nonbelievers) and others like them you can cite value systems and the evidence for and against each to rationally argue that their action is mistaken or in some sense "bad."

How do you argue against their actions, however, if you concede that their belief in their God, is OK? It's contradictory to say to someone I have no problem with you believing, sincerely believing, in an omnipotent, omniscient God that can and does communicate with you in an infallible way BUT don't listen to this God if He tells you to crash a hijacked airliner into a skyscraper.


Well - again - you're jumping to a conclusion based on something I never said. But to answer the question - you debate both believers using the same thought process. You don't fly a plane in the building if there is no god because you are killing innocent people. You don't fly a plane into a building if there is a god for the same reason. Or if you want to use their beliefs against them - you say god wouldn't want you to fly the plane into the building because god (allegedly) said "thou shall not kill".
Sam
Re: Anybody want to talk about how all this got here?
February 13, 2015 11:58PM
Beliefs/thoughts cause emotions. Emotions cause behavior. To change behavior, change the emotion. To change emotions, change the thoughts/beliefs. Atheism causes no emotion and therefore no behavior. Theism does cause emotion and that emotion does cause harmful behaviors. If you want to go with the other agnogs that say as long as it makes you happy believe whatever you want as long as you admit you are irrational, it makes more sense to be an atheist because it causes no harm even if you think it's irrational. If it's not about what's true, let it be about what does the least harm.
Re: Anybody want to talk about how all this got here?
February 14, 2015 12:42AM
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Sam
Beliefs/thoughts cause emotions. Emotions cause behavior. To change behavior, change the emotion. To change emotions, change the thoughts/beliefs. Atheism causes no emotion and therefore no behavior. Theism does cause emotion and that emotion does cause harmful behaviors. If you want to go with the other agnogs that say as long as it makes you happy believe whatever you want as long as you admit you are irrational, it makes more sense to be an atheist because it causes no harm even if you think it's irrational. If it's not about what's true, let it be about what does the least harm.

I don't notice any difference in emotion levels between atheists, theists or agnostics. I don't think that they are connected.
Re: Anybody want to talk about how all this got here?
February 14, 2015 12:46AM
Indy wrote: But to answer the question - you debate both believers using the same thought process. You don't fly a plane in the building if there is no god because you are killing innocent people. You don't fly a plane into a building if there is a god for the same reason. 

The clear assumption that I'm making here is that the true believer believes his God has commanded him to slam the airliner into the building or at the very least condones it.

In this case, then, you're telling the true believer NOT to do something that he believes an omniscient God has told him to do. And at the same time you're telling him it's not even irrational for him to believe in such a being, much less that it borders on being outright crazy.

Or do you believe in some cases it is irrational to believe in beings for which knowledge is unavailable?
Sam
Re: Anybody want to talk about how all this got here?
February 14, 2015 01:04AM
Thorn, You don't think emotion has anything to do with it yet you also believe people should believe whatever makes them happy? Don't you get tired of contradicting yourself?
Re: Anybody want to talk about how all this got here?
February 14, 2015 01:07AM
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Sam
Thorn, You don't think emotion has anything to do with it yet you also believe people should believe whatever makes them happy? Don't you get tired of contradicting yourself?

There's no contradiction. People should believe what makes them happy, it doesn't make any difference if its atheism or theism or any other ism.

I am saying there is no connection between someone's emotional level and their belief system. You can find highly emotional and highly unemotional people holding every belief system there is.
Sam
Re: Anybody want to talk about how all this got here?
February 14, 2015 01:26AM
Thorn, I'm talking about the emotion connected to the specific belief about godthings and you know it. Now, are you saying you do not believe there is any emotion connected to theism? Have you ever been to church or seen a beheading?? That there is emotion (run amok) in theism should be obvious.

That agnogs also employ emotion in their denial of any belief in godthings should also be obvious but I understand you believing you are an agnog (when you are really a believer, face it) would cloud your judgment on that one. I think agnogs should actually be called ignogs because they willfully ignore their own beliefs and emotions and focus all their mental powers on how wrong everyone is for believing anything or, godthings forbid!, knowing anything.

What I don't see is emotion in the belief that there are no gods. How could someone be emotional in nonbelief of a nonentity?
Re: Anybody want to talk about how all this got here?
February 14, 2015 01:59AM
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Sam
Thorn, I'm talking about the emotion connected to the specific belief about godthings and you know it. Now, are you saying you do not believe there is any emotion connected to theism? Have you ever been to church or seen a beheading?? That there is emotion (run amok) in theism should be obvious.

Those people are emotional, and they are theists. They are not emotional because they are theists.

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That agnogs also employ emotion in their denial of any belief in godthings should also be obvious but I understand you believing you are an agnog (when you are really a believer, face it) would cloud your judgment on that one. I think agnogs should actually be called ignogs because they willfully ignore their own beliefs and emotions and focus all their mental powers on how wrong everyone is for believing anything or, godthings forbid!, knowing anything.

Haha, OK ignogs, fine. But I don't really "ignore" the issue, I think about it at depth. It's just that I can see that my ideas have continued to develop and I dont't want to halt them by pretending they are real. They are just ideas.

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What I don't see is emotion in the belief that there are no gods. How could someone be emotional in nonbelief of a nonentity?

But you do feel emotions don't you Sam? We all do, because that's what human beings do.
Re: Anybody want to talk about how all this got here?
February 14, 2015 02:14AM
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Dick
Indy wrote: But to answer the question - you debate both believers using the same thought process. You don't fly a plane in the building if there is no god because you are killing innocent people. You don't fly a plane into a building if there is a god for the same reason. 

The clear assumption that I'm making here is that the true believer believes his God has commanded him to slam the airliner into the building or at the very least condones it.

In this case, then, you're telling the true believer NOT to do something that he believes an omniscient God has told him to do. And at the same time you're telling him it's not even irrational for him to believe in such a being, much less that it borders on being outright crazy.

Or do you believe in some cases it is irrational to believe in beings for which knowledge is unavailable?


You're conflating things. If someone wants to fly a plane into a building - they're nuts. God or no god. Belief or no belief. Rational, reasonable people do not see any advantage to flying a plane into a building. But if I were in a position to talk to someone before they flew a plane into a building - I would not be trying to convince him god is an irrational idea or that his god doesn't exist. That would surely be a much harder obstacle to circumvent than simply using his own beliefs to convince him his god doesn't want him to do it. It doesn't matter what I believe or whether I think god is irrational - he's the one in the cockpit.
Sam
Re: Anybody want to talk about how all this got here?
February 14, 2015 02:18AM
Thorn, No, you're right. They are not emotional because they are theists. They are theists because they are emotional.

I didn't say you ignored the issue. I said you willfully ignore your beliefs and emotions surrounding the issue and you're still doing it, lol.

I don't feel any emotion when I focus on my belief that there are no gods, nope. Do I get emotional discussing the subject? Oh yes I do sometimes! I get emotional when I'm personally attacked over it. I get emotional when I get frustrating and conflicting answers, I get emotional when I see a beheading in the name of the godthing, etc. etc. but I don't feel anything surrounding my belief that there are no gods. Could be because I truly believe godthings are imaginary and talking about it is just an intellectual exercise and is meaningless in the real world.

Re: " It's just that I can see that my ideas have continued to develop and I dont't want to halt them by pretending they are real."

I have no idea what this means.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/14/2015 05:27AM by Sam.
Re: Anybody want to talk about how all this got here?
February 14, 2015 04:39PM
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Indy!
You're conflating things. If someone wants to fly a plane into a building - they're nuts. God or no god. Belief or no belief. Rational, reasonable people do not see any advantage to flying a plane into a building.

Not true. It is absolutely rational to slam a hijacked airliner into a skyscraper if you rationally believe that by doing so you are thereby punching your ticket for eternal paradise.

Quote

But if I were in a position to talk to someone before they flew a plane into a building - I would not be trying to convince him god is an irrational idea or that his god doesn't exist. That would surely be a much harder obstacle to circumvent than simply using his own beliefs to convince him his god doesn't want him to do it. It doesn't matter what I believe or whether I think god is irrational - he's the one in the cockpit.

Let's be honest here, you or I don't have one chance in hell of convincing a jihadist that his God is nonexistent OR that we understand his God's message better than he does.

The best way, IMO, to prevent the next generation or the generation after that of religious crazies from doing stupid, seriously harmful things is to accelerate the winning of the ideological war against religious belief.

It's just a matter of time until virtually everyone around the globe realizes what a backwards, superstitious, and sometimes dangerous belief, the belief in God is, but we need to step up the timetable for that.
Sam
Re: Anybody want to talk about how all this got here?
February 14, 2015 05:51PM
Amen
Re: Anybody want to talk about how all this got here?
February 14, 2015 08:04PM
Well I think we can all agree on that. But it's not going to happen by one-on-one debate imho.
Sam
Re: Anybody want to talk about how all this got here?
February 14, 2015 08:19PM
There's no such thing as "one on one debate" on the internet unless it's a private chat. It may be two people discussing things but who knows how many are reading and, hopefully, learning something, even if it's just how important it is to question their beliefs and that's really all anyone can expect. It's obviously working so, imho, it's worth keeping at it.
Re: Anybody want to talk about how all this got here?
February 14, 2015 08:57PM
Semantics.

Don't see anyone on the board changing their opinion. So the possibility some random person traipsing thru here changed their position based on our discussion? Highly unlikely. That's like my clients thinking they're going to make 1000s of dollars by putting up one ad on a website. The internet is not magical - it's just another way to disseminate information. Usually to a very small audience.
Sam
Re: Anybody want to talk about how all this got here?
February 14, 2015 09:14PM
I read and post on many sites and so do most other people, I think, but whatever...
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